Author Topic: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?  (Read 1728 times)

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Offline DuckNorris

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How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 15:46:25 »
Hello,

 I was curious , why doesn't GMK ever make keycaps with font similar to those on SA/DSA keycaps? Is it a licensing issue or just simply it is not their "thing"? As that font defines them or something. The GMK keys are awesome but I would love if they had the SA style fonts. I just wanted some insight into this process.

Regards

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 15:49:30 »
GMK caps are made using the original Cherry molds. They have no desire to make caps using other fonts like those found on DSA/SA caps.

It is also extremely expensive to make mold inserts.

Offline romevi

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 15:54:32 »
The above, but also because I think SP owns the rights to the typeface on their own caps.

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 15:56:14 »
The above, but also because I think SP owns the rights to the typeface on their own caps.

This too. GMK could make caps using another font if they owned the rights and such but again people order GMK for caps made using the original Cherry molds.

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 16:04:14 »
The above, but also because I think SP owns the rights to the typeface on their own caps.

This is sort of true. SP doesn't own the "rights" to their typeface so much as they simply are the only company who has modified the original Gorton legend plates in the way that they did.

In principle, anyone could purchase a Gorton pantograph machine and create a modified set of legend plates, starting from the stock ones that come with the machine, that look exactly like SP's. Of course, I don't know any company that would bother to do that.

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 14 February 2017, 19:54:47 »
GMK owns the OG molds, as mentioned above.

SP was also in the hobbyist game much earlier than GMK, so they've been innovating specifically in that area for a while.

I remember when GMK sets were nigh impossible to get, and now we see multiple ones running at the same time.
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Offline DuckNorris

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 16 February 2017, 15:54:32 »
Thank you all very much for your responses and it now makes sense to me but I had no idea the keyboard market was like that with the manufacturers. I will keep this in mind  for other keycap sets in the future.

Offline Minnie2

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 01:20:10 »
Sure, sp will be more suitable for U :rolleyes:
    A Bro Caps Fan

Just wanted to make sure everyone sees that information. A lot of people missed it ;)

Offline DuckNorris

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 09:18:21 »
Sure, sp will be more suitable for U :rolleyes:

I just like how it looks lol for most sets. There are some GMK sets like the NES that i think are worth it in GMK, well to me look best in GMK.

Offline Minnie2

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 09:27:31 »
Sure, sp will be more suitable for U :rolleyes:

I just like how it looks lol for most sets. There are some GMK sets like the NES that i think are worth it in GMK, well to me look best in GMK.
I think, just I think.

The color of SP keysets will be more bright than GMK set :blank:
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Just wanted to make sure everyone sees that information. A lot of people missed it ;)

Offline DuckNorris

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 16:15:33 »
Sure, sp will be more suitable for U :rolleyes:

I just like how it looks lol for most sets. There are some GMK sets like the NES that i think are worth it in GMK, well to me look best in GMK.
I think, just I think.

The color of SP keysets will be more bright than GMK set :blank:

Oh no it is true, I get excited when I see SP sets then I slowly go into sadness for a new minutes when I realize they are all sold out on different websites and Massdrop isn't dropping any atm ;_;. One day I'll get a SP set I tell ya, one day. :D

Offline atsession

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 18:12:07 »
Sure, sp will be more suitable for U :rolleyes:

I just like how it looks lol for most sets. There are some GMK sets like the NES that i think are worth it in GMK, well to me look best in GMK.
I think, just I think.

The color of SP keysets will be more bright than GMK set :blank:

Oh no it is true, I get excited when I see SP sets then I slowly go into sadness for a new minutes when I realize they are all sold out on different websites and Massdrop isn't dropping any atm ;_;. One day I'll get a SP set I tell ya, one day. :D

There's a GB going on at keyclack right now for an SA set.



Offline Photoelectric

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 18:14:57 »
I remember when GMK sets were nigh impossible to get, and now we see multiple ones running at the same time.

It's funny, it sounds like some days long past.  But it was only a few short years ago :)  GMK's certainly come around dramatically from not being much interested in offering custom sets at low enough MOQ to actually opening a custom keyboard/keycap business and allowing custom colors.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 18 February 2017, 14:58:35 »
I remember when GMK sets were nigh impossible to get, and now we see multiple ones running at the same time.

It's funny, it sounds like some days long past.  But it was only a few short years ago :)  GMK's certainly come around dramatically from not being much interested in offering custom sets at low enough MOQ to actually opening a custom keyboard/keycap business and allowing custom colors.

I'm still happy with my GMK. I've been using the old Originative Olivetti set nearly daily for 2+ years now. Filco w/reds is still my favorite board solely because of the GMK. I find myself coming back to it even after my LZ or my RF.
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Offline hking0036

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 19 February 2017, 00:44:13 »
Sure, sp will be more suitable for U :rolleyes:

I just like how it looks lol for most sets. There are some GMK sets like the NES that i think are worth it in GMK, well to me look best in GMK.
I think, just I think.

The color of SP keysets will be more bright than GMK set :blank:

Oh no it is true, I get excited when I see SP sets then I slowly go into sadness for a new minutes when I realize they are all sold out on different websites and Massdrop isn't dropping any atm ;_;. One day I'll get a SP set I tell ya, one day. :D
It's impossible to not find sp sets as far as I know, they run constantly in one place or another and you can buy some sets directly from their site at any time. Finding a certain colorway is another issue entirely though.
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Offline katushkin

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 19 February 2017, 15:07:27 »
I think one of the appeals of GMK when it first arrived on the scene was that it used the original Cherry legends. Going away from that would take something away from one of their main selling points.
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Online Phenix

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 19 February 2017, 15:48:07 »
The above, but also because I think SP owns the rights to the typeface on their own caps.

This is sort of true. SP doesn't own the "rights" to their typeface so much as they simply are the only company who has modified the original Gorton legend plates in the way that they did.

In principle, anyone could purchase a Gorton pantograph machine and create a modified set of legend plates, starting from the stock ones that come with the machine, that look exactly like SP's. Of course, I don't know any company that would bother to do that.

IIRC some Chinese are actually about copying SA profile
(and there is an Chinese SA Penumbra set on aliexpress as well)
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Offline DuckNorris

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 12:25:33 »
Sure, sp will be more suitable for U :rolleyes:

I just like how it looks lol for most sets. There are some GMK sets like the NES that i think are worth it in GMK, well to me look best in GMK.
I think, just I think.

The color of SP keysets will be more bright than GMK set :blank:

Oh no it is true, I get excited when I see SP sets then I slowly go into sadness for a new minutes when I realize they are all sold out on different websites and Massdrop isn't dropping any atm ;_;. One day I'll get a SP set I tell ya, one day. :D

There's a GB going on at keyclack right now for an SA set.
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Thank you very much for your recommendation but that December ship date made me a little sad. ;_;

Btw, is there a possibility say Massdrop drops a set soon that it may have an earlier ship date? I know it goes off of whomever books them first etc.

Online zslane

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 13:14:07 »
Not if it is a double-shot SA set, no. Signature Plastics is backed up to next year with projects, so anything new that comes along will simply have to get in line behind everything else.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 19:15:54 »
The above, but also because I think SP owns the rights to the typeface on their own caps.

There's no such thing as typeface ownership in the United States.

Straight from the US Copyright Office:
https://copyright.gov/comp3/chap900/ch900-visual-art.pdf

Quote
906.4 Typeface, Typefont, Lettering, Calligraphy, and Typographic Ornamentation

As a general rule, typeface, typefont, lettering, calligraphy, and typographic
ornamentation are not registrable. 37 C.F.R. § 202.1(a), (e). These elements are mere
variations of uncopyrightable letters or words, which in turn are the building blocks of
expression. See id. The Office typically refuses claims based on individual alphabetic or
numbering characters, sets or fonts of related characters, fanciful lettering and
calligraphy, or other forms of typeface. This is true regardless of how novel and creative
the shape and form of the typeface characters may be. A typeface character cannot be
analogized to a work of art, because the creative aspects of the character (if any) cannot
be separated from the utilitarian nature of that character.

Offline romevi

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 19:22:56 »
The above, but also because I think SP owns the rights to the typeface on their own caps.

There's no such thing as typeface ownership in the United States.

Straight from the US Copyright Office:
https://copyright.gov/comp3/chap900/ch900-visual-art.pdf

Quote
906.4 Typeface, Typefont, Lettering, Calligraphy, and Typographic Ornamentation

As a general rule, typeface, typefont, lettering, calligraphy, and typographic
ornamentation are not registrable. 37 C.F.R. § 202.1(a), (e). These elements are mere
variations of uncopyrightable letters or words, which in turn are the building blocks of
expression. See id. The Office typically refuses claims based on individual alphabetic or
numbering characters, sets or fonts of related characters, fanciful lettering and
calligraphy, or other forms of typeface. This is true regardless of how novel and creative
the shape and form of the typeface characters may be. A typeface character cannot be
analogized to a work of art, because the creative aspects of the character (if any) cannot
be separated from the utilitarian nature of that character.

I didn't know! Now I can say that with confidence and the federal regulation behind me.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 19:37:30 »
The above, but also because I think SP owns the rights to the typeface on their own caps.

There's no such thing as typeface ownership in the United States.

Straight from the US Copyright Office:
https://copyright.gov/comp3/chap900/ch900-visual-art.pdf

Quote
906.4 Typeface, Typefont, Lettering, Calligraphy, and Typographic Ornamentation

As a general rule, typeface, typefont, lettering, calligraphy, and typographic
ornamentation are not registrable. 37 C.F.R. § 202.1(a), (e). These elements are mere
variations of uncopyrightable letters or words, which in turn are the building blocks of
expression. See id. The Office typically refuses claims based on individual alphabetic or
numbering characters, sets or fonts of related characters, fanciful lettering and
calligraphy, or other forms of typeface. This is true regardless of how novel and creative
the shape and form of the typeface characters may be. A typeface character cannot be
analogized to a work of art, because the creative aspects of the character (if any) cannot
be separated from the utilitarian nature of that character.

I didn't know! Now I can say that with confidence and the federal regulation behind me.

I ended up saving these links form a while back when I'd started up the discussion on colorway ownership.  It's an interesting read.  There's more in that PDF that covers a lot of things not supported like general/obvious icons as well.  I've seen some arguments in the past over a few things that would likely not be protected.

For example:
https://www.copyright.gov/comp3/chap300/ch300-copyrightable-authorship.pdf

Quote

313.4(J) Familiar Symbols and Designs

Familiar symbols and designs are not copyrightable and cannot be registered with the
U.S. Copyright Office, either in two-dimensional or three-dimensional form. 37 C.F.R. §
202.1(a). Likewise, the Office cannot register a work consisting of a simple combination
of a few familiar symbols or designs with minor linear or spatial variations, either in
two-dimensional or three-dimensional form. Examples of familiar symbols and designs
include, without limitation:
• Letters.
• Punctuation.
• Symbols typically found on a keyboard, such as asterisks, ampersands, and the like.
• Abbreviations.
• Musical notes and symbols.
• Numbers.
• Mathematical symbols.
• Currency symbols.
• Arrows and other directional or navigational symbols.
• Common representational symbols, such as a spade, club, heart, diamond, star, yin
yang, fleur de lys, or the like.
• Common patterns, such as standard chevron, polka dot, checkerboard, or
houndstooth designs.
• Well-known and commonly used symbols that contain a de minimis amount of
expression or that are in the public domain, such as the peace symbol, gender
symbols (♀ ♂), the symbols for “play, pause, stop, forward, back,” simple emoticons
such as the typical smiley face (☺), or the like.
• Standard industry designs, such as the caduceus, the barber pole, food labeling
symbols, hazard warning symbols, or the like.
• Familiar religious symbols such as crosses, stars, crescents, and the like.
• Common architecture moldings, such as the volute used to decorate Ionic and
Corinthian columns.

Offline Meitachi

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 20:00:47 »
Is it weird that I like the SP font but GMK's profile? It'd be nice to have a happy medium between the two.

Online zslane

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 20:20:26 »
In the U.S. the only thing a company can own is the name of a typeface (they can trademark it). That's why every type foundry has their own version of, say, Garamond with a different name. Same basic glyphs, different name.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 21:06:47 »
Is it weird that I like the SP font but GMK's profile? It'd be nice to have a happy medium between the two.

it's called DCS
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Offline romevi

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 21:08:13 »
Is it weird that I like the SP font but GMK's profile? It'd be nice to have a happy medium between the two.

it's called DCS

Would like to see more DCS sets. I actually like it. Better than OEM.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 22:41:50 »
In the U.S. the only thing a company can own is the name of a typeface (they can trademark it). That's why every type foundry has their own version of, say, Garamond with a different name. Same basic glyphs, different name.

True, I often neglect to mention the trademark side of the house when talking about about copyright.  You can also trademark colors (though trademarks have more restrictions).  Hell, Pantone even has private colors like Tiffany Blue that they produce exclusively for Tiffany.

Offline romevi

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 22:51:33 »
I'm not really one for aqua/robin egg hues, but, man, I do love me that Tiffany blue.


Offline tameone

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 23:07:51 »
Is it weird that I like the SP font but GMK's profile? It'd be nice to have a happy medium between the two.

it's called DCS

Would like to see more DCS sets. I actually like it. Better than OEM.

I definitely think DCS should be utilized more now than GMK is getting bogged down.  The queue isn't saturated like SA, and it's a pretty nice profile.  I don't like it quite as much as cherry since it's a tad more sculpted, but variety is good.
        

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 21 February 2017, 23:15:15 »
Is it weird that I like the SP font but GMK's profile? It'd be nice to have a happy medium between the two.

it's called DCS

Would like to see more DCS sets. I actually like it. Better than OEM.

I definitely think DCS should be utilized more now than GMK is getting bogged down.  The queue isn't saturated like SA, and it's a pretty nice profile.  I don't like it quite as much as cherry since it's a tad more sculpted, but variety is good.

Most people have no interest in thin ABS anymore.

Online zslane

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 22 February 2017, 12:30:37 »
Yeah, their ABS has to be bad phat now.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 22 February 2017, 17:54:02 »
Is it weird that I like the SP font but GMK's profile? It'd be nice to have a happy medium between the two.

it's called DCS

Would like to see more DCS sets. I actually like it. Better than OEM.

I definitely think DCS should be utilized more now than GMK is getting bogged down.  The queue isn't saturated like SA, and it's a pretty nice profile.  I don't like it quite as much as cherry since it's a tad more sculpted, but variety is good.

DCS is a harder sell here given most people that want ABS caps prefer thicker caps.  DCS is known for having rather thin caps in comparison to GMK.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 22 February 2017, 18:03:45 »
Is it weird that I like the SP font but GMK's profile? It'd be nice to have a happy medium between the two.

it's called DCS

Would like to see more DCS sets. I actually like it. Better than OEM.

I definitely think DCS should be utilized more now than GMK is getting bogged down.  The queue isn't saturated like SA, and it's a pretty nice profile.  I don't like it quite as much as cherry since it's a tad more sculpted, but variety is good.

DCS is a harder sell here given most people that want ABS caps prefer thicker caps.  DCS is known for having rather thin caps in comparison to GMK.

I feel like there's a lot of misinformation around DCS. I think it's a really good profile, and I say that as someone that's been typing on GMK for years.

It's also DIRT cheap compared to GMK. You can run a DCS set shipped for $66 with no frills.
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Offline Niomosy

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Re: How come GMK does not make SA/DSA text on their keycaps?
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 22 February 2017, 20:21:48 »
Is it weird that I like the SP font but GMK's profile? It'd be nice to have a happy medium between the two.

it's called DCS

Would like to see more DCS sets. I actually like it. Better than OEM.

I definitely think DCS should be utilized more now than GMK is getting bogged down.  The queue isn't saturated like SA, and it's a pretty nice profile.  I don't like it quite as much as cherry since it's a tad more sculpted, but variety is good.

DCS is a harder sell here given most people that want ABS caps prefer thicker caps.  DCS is known for having rather thin caps in comparison to GMK.

I feel like there's a lot of misinformation around DCS. I think it's a really good profile, and I say that as someone that's been typing on GMK for years.

It's also DIRT cheap compared to GMK. You can run a DCS set shipped for $66 with no frills.

There will always be those that like DCS and always those that don't like it.  Right now, DCS is out of fashion.  Cost-wise, it does have appeal but the current trend is with GMK for cylindrical caps.