Author Topic: Heavier ≠ better?  (Read 2181 times)

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Offline ander

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Heavier ≠ better?
« on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 01:34:51 »
There's a lot of talk here on GH about how heavy, solid, and massively built "good" boards are. But are heavy boards really better?

Think about it: With massively solid boards, all you feel is the switch. There are some awesome switches out there, of course. But when it gets beyond a certain weight and density of build, a board isn't part of the experience; it's just something big and heavy to hold the switches in place, like an expensive logoed doorstop.

As we speak, I'm typing on a humble Chicony KB-5191 with vintage Cherry MX Blues:





Chiconys are widely considered lower-niche boards from the classic MK era. (In fact, I got this one free; an eBay seller included it when they were delayed getting another board off to me.)

The Blues are wonderful, of course. But what really makes the Chicony fun, IMHO, is that I also feel and hear the board. It's not just this huge dumb weight; it's a participant in the typing.

I'm just saying: Maybe it's time to rethink this idea that the denser and heavier a board is, the better it is, the more it's worth. There must be more to MKs, mustn't there, than just enjoying switches, feeling certain key textures, seeing pretty lighting effects, and so on? Maybe we've been railroaded into thinking otherwise?

Discuss.
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Offline typo

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 06:22:40 »
I feel you right now. Although back then and today as well the average mechanical board weight was/is 21. to 2.8 pounds. Some like the model F going as high as 3+ pounds. They are really not that heavy. None of them. Weigh it. Cherry boards were always not the best construction so I bet it does not weigh as much as you think. Probably similar to a new Filco in fact. I could be wrong but will not know until you weigh it. It is not like it is a truck on your desk. Pretty much everything, ever tends to be in the same weight range of less than 3 pounds. If you want very lite don't get a mechanical keyboard. Even Realforce is in this range because it is well built.

Offline Zobeid Zuma

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 06:53:32 »
I have been pondering this question as I look at all the aluminum cases with machined cutouts in the bottom for steel or brass weights, which seems to be something of a fad now.  I question whether this is any benefit.  Logically, it seems to me that making the case stiff and dampening vibrations is what we should be aiming for, not making it heavy.  Maybe carbon fiber is the way to go?

As for the case being a "participant" in the typing experience...  My daily driver right now is a recent production Matias Mini Tactile Pro.  The plastic case is pretty solid, not creaky, but it does resonate.  It's crunchy.  It's not the most luxurious typing experience, but I do type fast and with confidence on it, I think because the tactile and audible feedback is so strong.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 06:56:29 »
I think that greater weight and stability of the base makes the key presses feel lighter. If all of the force of the finger stroke goes into the switch mechanism ("equal and opposite reaction") and none is dissipated in movement or vibration of the keyboard as a whole, then it has the perceived effect of amplifying the force of the stroke.

The 122-key Model F weighs around 9 pounds (4 kg) including cable and I set mine on a hard rubber mat, so it comes pretty close to being an "immovable object" when I am using it.
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Offline _haru

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 09:29:44 »
This is one of the reasons I went with a plastic case instead of metal for my build. I love how the sound is a distinctive combination of the switches, case, plate, and keycaps :D
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Offline dante

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 09:38:16 »
I definitely prefer lighter boards for sure especially those without metal plates.

The IBM M2, HHKB, Poker 1, KBT Pure, Cherry G80-1865, etc - these were all much better typing experiences that IMHO were made better by not having a metal plate.

I totally understand how some might feel the complete opposite; but when coincidences pile on you begin to learn what you like.

Offline _haru

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 09:40:04 »
I definitely prefer lighter boards for sure especially those without metal plates.

The IBM M2, HHKB, Poker 1, KBT Pure, Cherry G80-1865, etc - these were all much better typing experiences that IMHO were made better by not having a metal plate.

I totally understand how some might feel the complete opposite; but when coincidences pile on you begin to learn what you like.

Totally agree - but for me it's plastic (PETG) plates over metal.
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Offline reececonrad

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 09:51:16 »
Why not both?  I have some very light plastic cases I love, and I have some TKLs that I could probably gain mass by curling. 

I do wish someone would come up with a nice custom case that was thick ABS plastic.  I would throw down some cash for a retro or modern plastic design.
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 September 2017, 10:00:58 by reececonrad »
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Offline mogo

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 09:58:32 »
I think that people are homing into the point: As always, it will come down to what you like.

The board does not have to be heavy to be satisfying. The board is the reverberation chamber, like the body of a guitar, and the materials and the rigidity of the components will determine how everything sounds. Keycaps also play a part in the acoustics (to say nothing of the unique touch sensation).

More rigid components mean less flex and shifting which leads to a feel of quality and sturdiness. This is a quality people like (just look at the Model M for an example of affection for sturdy equipment). Sturdy materials tend to be heavier, so people have come to think that the heaviness is the marker of quality, when really it should be the sturdiness and inflexibility of the materials.

I love the influx of CNC'd, heavy metal boards because they feel good and they provide pleasant acoustics (personally speaking - you are welcome to disagree!) But a carbon fiber case with grippy feet would probably feel and sound pretty good too.

Offline Kallus

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 11:30:13 »
I personally like heavier cases more, not because it really contributes to the feel of the board but because I like how it feels like it's higher quality and it also feels more durable. Emphasis on the "feels" though because i know that some vintage boards have lasted for decades with plastic cases. I just think that heavier alu or steel feel more premium and that's why I like them

Also, someone said that they would pay for a custom gb for an ABS case but I think the reason why this hasn't done is because it's very expensive to make the tooling for something like that. Since most of the cases would have to injection molded it would cost way more to make the molds than it ever would to make CNC'd alu cases.

Offline Tactile

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 11:38:18 »
IBM Model F 122 FTW. More than eight pounds of clicky goodness.

Offline reececonrad

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 11:38:29 »
I personally like heavier cases more, not because it really contributes to the feel of the board but because I like how it feels like it's higher quality and it also feels more durable. Emphasis on the "feels" though because i know that some vintage boards have lasted for decades with plastic cases. I just think that heavier alu or steel feel more premium and that's why I like them

Also, someone said that they would pay for a custom gb for an ABS case but I think the reason why this hasn't done is because it's very expensive to make the tooling for something like that. Since most of the cases would have to injection molded it would cost way more to make the molds than it ever would to make CNC'd alu cases.

Are we sure on the cost of plastic cases though?  I figured that the costs of the tooling plus the cheaper plastic material would offset the costs of the aluminum and anodizing.
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Online jbondeson

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 11:43:30 »
I think that people are homing into the point: As always, it will come down to what you like.

The board does not have to be heavy to be satisfying. The board is the reverberation chamber, like the body of a guitar, and the materials and the rigidity of the components will determine how everything sounds. Keycaps also play a part in the acoustics (to say nothing of the unique touch sensation).

I think this is exactly it. People tend to conflate weight with a lot of other characteristics like quality and price. And you're right on with weight having little to do with how a board feels/sounds in the end.

I can design a 20lb monster that types like a trampoline if I use a polycarb plate + thin pcb and mount it on the corners with o-rings.

I can design a sub-1lb featherweight that types like a granite tabletop if I use a carbon fiber plate and brace the pcb/plate in a dozen places.

The reality of the matter is that we've had a huge influx of cases that are pretty much identical outside of superficial aesthetics and layout, so people haven't really had to think about it too much.



Offline I_am_not_me_

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 11:50:35 »
Yeah I totally agree. I'm pretty new to keyboards but I can agree that there are other factors other than weight. It makes sense that acoustics and material also have an effect. I can imagine a board with good acoustics but light feel will sound better than say a concrete board. But I think this starts to factor after a certain point in quality because a lot of the time, if something feels like super light flimsy hollow plastic, it's going to sound cheap. 

Offline typo

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 12:27:55 »
Thick acrylic case on Korean is very nice. It actually is pretty heavy. I did not know the IBM's where that heavy. Most off the shelf boards today are within the range I said. Mostly. Many say he weight on the back. The issue would be a board that you can literally twist out of shape. There are plenty of 2.5# boards that do not do this. Perhaps at least in part due to the steel plate. Yes, personal preference because I find right on PCB to be too bouncy. Unless any form of rubber dome.

Offline zslane

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 12:33:17 »
I think a heavier board, which isolates the typing experience to mostly just the feel of the switches, is only a problem if the switches are crap. If I have a good keycap set on a good switch, then all I want to feel are the caps and the switches. Hell, if I could, I'd have the board built right into my desk.

Offline jcoffin1981

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 12:37:02 »
I find the build material of the case to be of little relevance.  Whether it's steel, aluminum, or plastic it doesn't move anywhere when I 'm typing and I don't really care.  Perhaps from a marketing perspective people feel they have more value paying 200 dollars for a super heavy board. I think PCB vs plate mount as well as keycaps and stabilizers have much more to do with the whole typing experience
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Offline reececonrad

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 13:25:45 »
I find the build material of the case to be of little relevance.  Whether it's steel, aluminum, or plastic it doesn't move anywhere when I 'm typing and I don't really care.  Perhaps from a marketing perspective people feel they have more value paying 200 dollars for a super heavy board. I think PCB vs plate mount as well as keycaps and stabilizers have much more to do with the whole typing experience

Don't forget top vs. tray mount.  I have 2 top mounts coming soon, so I cannot speak from experience, but I'm going to guess the typing experience is noticeably different.  I'll know soon enough.

It's the little things that piss me off.  I have so many boards that look amazing and feel amazing, but then each has it own thing to piss me off.  Like the metallic thunk of the space bar that I cannot seem to dampen... or the stabilizer on the left shift that has some sort of catch in it sometimes, even though I carefully lubed, clipped, and tested it before soldering.  They're like people... each with their beauties and each with their imperfections.  I love them for it.  Bring on the fat ones.  Bring on the skinny ones.  I'll have my way with all of them!  :eek:
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 17:43:59 »
If the keyboard is flat and solid (no flex), it should feel no different if it's light or heavy.
However, materials do flex different and you can feel a difference in how they resonate, for example an aluminum plate feels different than a stainless steel one, but you will only feel this when mounted in a case that doesn't flex. Put both in an identical plastic case and odds are they will feel identical since the case will give before the plates will. As mentioned, how the plates are mounted make a difference, if the late is floating and held in place only by the switches (tray mount?), then the plate material will matter far, far less than when hard mounted to the case.

I suspect if someone made a carbon fiber case, with hard mounted carbon fiber plate, a lot of people would change their mind on the weight thing. The typing feel would be there, but the noise would be different. Which I think is more where the brass and weight comes into play.


So yes, heavier does = better, but not in the ways people associate it.
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Offline Sifo

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 18:08:38 »
I still think Filcos are some of the nicest feeling and sounding MX boards out there.
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Offline DudeSnail

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 27 September 2017, 23:01:35 »
I have been pondering this question as I look at all the aluminum cases with machined cutouts in the bottom for steel or brass weights, which seems to be something of a fad now.  I question whether this is any benefit.  Logically, it seems to me that making the case stiff and dampening vibrations is what we should be aiming for, not making it heavy.

You from the Victorian era or something, guy? Harvard dropout? Old dude?

Weights have been around a pretty long while, not exactly some new fangled fad, golly gee.

But on my thoughts overall, heavier keyboards feel much nicer to me. But I think we all know it's just preference.

 
I still think Filcos are some of the nicest feeling and sounding MX boards out there.

They sound pretty great with ergo clears in them for some reason, so they got that going for them.

Offline ander

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 28 September 2017, 04:05:34 »
I feel you right now. Although back then and today as well the average mechanical board weight was/is 21. to 2.8 pounds. Some like the model F going as high as 3+ pounds. They are really not that heavy. None of them. Weigh it. Cherry boards were always not the best construction so I bet it does not weigh as much as you think. Probably similar to a new Filco in fact. I could be wrong but will not know until you weigh it. It is not like it is a truck on your desk. Pretty much everything, ever tends to be in the same weight range of less than 3 pounds. If you want very lite don't get a mechanical keyboard. Even Realforce is in this range because it is well built.

So what you're saying is, it's not actual weight we perceive, but the sturdiness (i.e. rigidity) of the build? That's interesting.


I have been pondering this question as I look at all the aluminum cases with machined cutouts in the bottom for steel or brass weights, which seems to be something of a fad now.  I question whether this is any benefit.  Logically, it seems to me that making the case stiff and dampening vibrations is what we should be aiming for, not making it heavy.  Maybe carbon fiber is the way to go?

As for the case being a "participant" in the typing experience...  My daily driver right now is a recent production Matias Mini Tactile Pro.  The plastic case is pretty solid, not creaky, but it does resonate.  It's crunchy.  It's not the most luxurious typing experience, but I do type fast and with confidence on it, I think because the tactile and audible feedback is so strong.

Good points both!


IBM Model F 122 FTW. More than eight pounds of clicky goodness.

LOL, +1


I think that greater weight and stability of the base makes the key presses feel lighter. If all of the force of the finger stroke goes into the switch mechanism ("equal and opposite reaction") and none is dissipated in movement or vibration of the keyboard as a whole, then it has the perceived effect of amplifying the force of the stroke... The 122-key Model F weighs around 9 pounds (4 kg) including cable and I set mine on a hard rubber mat, so it comes pretty close to being an "immovable object" when I am using it.

Fair enough. I share your enthusiasm for big terminal boards, too, which I consider an important and pleasurable part of the spectrum of MK experiences.

It wasn't my intention to pit massive boards against lighter boards, though. I was simply suggesting that heavier didn't automatically mean "better", but that lighter, more responsive boards could be pleasurable in a different way—for some of us, at least.  ;?)


I think that people are homing into the point: As always, it will come down to what you like... The board does not have to be heavy to be satisfying. The board is the reverberation chamber, like the body of a guitar, and the materials and the rigidity of the components will determine how everything sounds. Keycaps also play a part in the acoustics (to say nothing of the unique touch sensation).

More rigid components mean less flex and shifting which leads to a feel of quality and sturdiness. This is a quality people like (just look at the Model M for an example of affection for sturdy equipment). Sturdy materials tend to be heavier, so people have come to think that the heaviness is the marker of quality, when really it should be the sturdiness and inflexibility of the materials.

I love the influx of CNC'd, heavy metal boards because they feel good and they provide pleasant acoustics (personally speaking - you are welcome to disagree!) But a carbon fiber case with grippy feet would probably feel and sound pretty good too.

Well put.

There's a certain stigma against lightly built cases. Where does a cool resonating case end and a shoddy build start?

And have any KB makers intentionally used lighter materials to create responsive cases? That's doubtful, isn't it?
 Realistically speaking, we're probably just lucky to have access to so many different MKs, and to appreciate how different (in a good way, mostly) they are to type on.

There's no question my IBM Model F was better-made than my IBM Model M, or that my IBM Model M was better-made than my Unicomp Model M. Yet I love typing on all of them. And on a rock-solid Filco with Cherry MX switches, and a flimsy Cherry MX-Board 3.0 (though it's ironic Cherry should get such a bad rap for their own boards with their own switches!). For me, it's the variety of builds that keeps typing so interesting.

I can't help thinking, it's rather like people. Some of them are rock-solid, respectable, conventional. Some of them are "lighter", less organized, but more unpredictable and creative. And you can enjoy and appreciate them all for who they are... Does that make any sense?

 
Why not both?  I have some very light plastic cases I love, and I have some TKLs that I could probably gain mass by curling...

LOL, I don't get the curling reference (isn't that like shuffleboard on ice?), but I agree. If all we had were massive, inert "high quality" boards, I think typing would be pretty boring.
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Offline rich1051414

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 28 September 2017, 04:59:29 »
By curling, I think he means weight lifting. By gaining mass, I think he means gain muscle mass.

I have been seeing this keyboard come up a lot after I found one in the wild. Weird. It would be good to point out that this keyboard could come with a wide variety of switches, but I think they are all cherry mx keycap compatible, but you could get Mitsumi or Futaba switches.
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Offline pr0ximity

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 28 September 2017, 06:02:03 »
I've been using my 356 Mini almost exclusively without the weight recently. It gives the polycarbonate plate more resonance, there's a great hollow sound on the Backspace in particular that I should try to record.

If I was going to design acase at this point I would oly be interested in it if it could be CNC'd polycarbonate. It has a really great half-rgidity to it like flexible glass or something. I think it would end up sounding great, and would like to experiment with porting the case, sort of like a subwoofer.

Offline ander

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 30 September 2017, 20:52:13 »
By curling, I think he means weight lifting. By gaining mass, I think he means gain muscle mass.

Oh, LOL, I get it—thanks.


I've been using my 356 Mini almost exclusively without the weight recently. It gives the polycarbonate plate more resonance, there's a great hollow sound on the Backspace in particular that I should try to record... If I was going to design acase at this point I would oly be interested in it if it could be CNC'd polycarbonate. It has a really great half-rgidity to it like flexible glass or something. I think it would end up sounding great, and would like to experiment with porting the case, sort of like a subwoofer.

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Offline jcoffin1981

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 18 October 2017, 19:19:23 »
I find the build material of the case to be of little relevance.  Whether it's steel, aluminum, or plastic it doesn't move anywhere when I 'm typing and I don't really care.  Perhaps from a marketing perspective people feel they have more value paying 200 dollars for a super heavy board. I think PCB vs plate mount as well as keycaps and stabilizers have much more to do with the whole typing experience

Don't forget top vs. tray mount.  I have 2 top mounts coming soon, so I cannot speak from experience, but I'm going to guess the typing experience is noticeably different.  I'll know soon enough.

It's the little things that piss me off.  I have so many boards that look amazing and feel amazing, but then each has it own thing to piss me off.  Like the metallic thunk of the space bar that I cannot seem to dampen... or the stabilizer on the left shift that has some sort of catch in it sometimes, even though I carefully lubed, clipped, and tested it before soldering.  They're like people... each with their beauties and each with their imperfections.  I love them for it.  Bring on the fat ones.  Bring on the skinny ones.  I'll have my way with all of them!  :eek:

I have no idea what top mount vs tray mount means.  You got a smirk out of with fat vs skinny.  Some people are talking about how the board flex affects the typing feel.  However, if you are applying 50 gf or whatever to actuate the keystroke, I'm not sure how this really comes into play, unless you are picking it up and trying to twist it.
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Offline pr0ximity

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 19 October 2017, 20:45:07 »
I have no idea what top mount vs tray mount means.  You got a smirk out of with fat vs skinny.  Some people are talking about how the board flex affects the typing feel.  However, if you are applying 50 gf or whatever to actuate the keystroke, I'm not sure how this really comes into play, unless you are picking it up and trying to twist it.

"Tray mount" is like the Pok3r: the plate screws into standoffs behind it in the middle. It provides more support in the middle of the plate. "Top mount" is where the plate is screwed into the top piece of the case along the edges. Less support in the middle results in more flexibility.

When you're talking flexibility in those cases, it's not like it's flexing and buckling all over the place. It's closer to tapping on a wall where there is a stud vs. tapping in between the studs. There's more resonance, but also more give to the wall there, even if it is relatively stiff drywall.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 19 October 2017, 22:16:59 »
"Tray mount" is like the Pok3r: the plate screws into standoffs behind it in the middle. It provides more support in the middle of the plate. "Top mount" is where the plate is screwed into the top piece of the case along the edges. Less support in the middle results in more flexibility.

When you're talking flexibility in those cases, it's not like it's flexing and buckling all over the place. It's closer to tapping on a wall where there is a stud vs. tapping in between the studs. There's more resonance, but also more give to the wall there, even if it is relatively stiff drywall.
A lot of 75% use a floating plate, where the pcb is bolted own, but the plate is not, it's only supported by the switches.

As for the flex on tray vs top mount, flex in them isn't really that bad on top mount as it needs to pull the sides in to flex and they can't. You are going to notice a difference in harmonics and dampening than you will notice a difference in actual flex.
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Offline SamirD

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 07:49:11 »
I've been using my 356 Mini almost exclusively without the weight recently. It gives the polycarbonate plate more resonance, there's a great hollow sound on the Backspace in particular that I should try to record... If I was going to design acase at this point I would oly be interested in it if it could be CNC'd polycarbonate. It has a really great half-rgidity to it like flexible glass or something. I think it would end up sounding great, and would like to experiment with porting the case, sort of like a subwoofer.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one here who appreciates boards with character.
I like this idea about porting the case to enhance/take away from the sound.  I wonder how the shape of the case would evolve if treated as a chamber like for music instruments?


Offline Zobeid Zuma

  • Posts: 150
  • Location: Texas
Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 08:37:25 »
Just for amusement, I tried putting some keyboards on my kitchen scale. . .

Apple Aluminum (100%) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 19 oz. / 530 g.

Carpe JD45 (45%)- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 19 oz. / 530 g.

Matias Mini Tactile Pro (75%) - - - - - - - - - - - - 31 oz. / 880 g.

CyberpowerPC (100%) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 39 oz. / 1100 g.

DZ60 with Team Wolf case, sans weight (60%) - - - - - 40 oz. / 1130 g.
                      ... with weight - - - - - - - - 47 oz. / 1330 g.

Unicomp Spacesaver M (100%) - - - - - - - - - - - - - 52 oz. / 1470 g.

IBM PC-XT Model F - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 90 oz. / 2550 g.


I really don't know why the Team Wolf aluminum case even came with a steel weight, since it's already quite heavy without that!  It feels like a brick.

Offline SamirD

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 08:49:54 »
I think rigidity is what we feel when it's quality we feel, regardless of weight (think carbon fibre).  But for me, weight simply helps keep the keyboard in place.  I don't want a gentle nudge or a stack of papers to be able to move it easily.

Offline davkol

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 09:13:23 »
But for me, weight simply helps keep the keyboard in place.  I don't want a gentle nudge or a stack of papers to be able to move it easily.
Have you heard of the wonders of modern materials engineering?

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Offline reececonrad

  • Posts: 1294
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 09:16:58 »
Every time I see this thread bumped it makes me remember that I NEED someone to run a GB for a nice thick plastic case.  All of these boards down the road and I still can't beat the feels and acoustics of my old Cooler Master.  I should pull him back out sometime. 
:)

Offline SamirD

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 10:03:17 »
But for me, weight simply helps keep the keyboard in place.  I don't want a gentle nudge or a stack of papers to be able to move it easily.
Have you heard of the wonders of modern materials engineering?

3M Bumpon Protective Products
Those won't do a thing if there isn't enough weight on them.
Every time I see this thread bumped it makes me remember that I NEED someone to run a GB for a nice thick plastic case.  All of these boards down the road and I still can't beat the feels and acoustics of my old Cooler Master.  I should pull him back out sometime. 
You should...and enjoy it!  That's why we have them!  These simple little pleasures of life that most people just don't get.  :thumb:


Offline davkol

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 10:22:44 »
But for me, weight simply helps keep the keyboard in place.  I don't want a gentle nudge or a stack of papers to be able to move it easily.
Have you heard of the wonders of modern materials engineering?

3M Bumpon Protective Products
Those won't do a thing if there isn't enough weight on them.
A bit of an extreme example, but it seems nothing else will cut it… how do you think glue works?

Offline SamirD

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 13:56:20 »
But for me, weight simply helps keep the keyboard in place.  I don't want a gentle nudge or a stack of papers to be able to move it easily.
Have you heard of the wonders of modern materials engineering?

3M Bumpon Protective Products
Those won't do a thing if there isn't enough weight on them.
A bit of an extreme example, but it seems nothing else will cut it… how do you think glue works?
Maybe I'm missing something here, but these simply stick onto an object and then that object's weight in conjunction with the rubber surface causes enough friction for the item not to move.  Am I missing something?  :confused:


Offline davkol

  • Posts: 4747
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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 14:56:52 »
Adhesion

There are different sorts, obviously.

Offline yuktsi

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Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 15:17:14 »
This is something very subjective I think, I like my Ducky G2 Pro as much as some of the heavier boards. IMO the plate design/material affects the typing feel much more than the weight of the board itself.
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Offline supamesican

  • Posts: 204
Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 15:32:42 »
Depends, if I feel a flimsy crap board bucling and bending etc when I try to use a key, and even worse that making me have to use more force than I should to press the key. Its not going to be in my house anymore. Now a board thats heavy just to be made out of metal doesnt mean good it can still be crap. And light weight boards can still be stable. My hhkb is light but it doesnt bend or buckle its firm and i feel just the keys.

Basically light weight stable boards = good. flimsy light crap  bad

Offline pr0ximity

  • Posts: 1941
  • Location: Vacationland
Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 15:44:08 »
A lot of 75% use a floating plate, where the pcb is bolted own, but the plate is not, it's only supported by the switches.

As for the flex on tray vs top mount, flex in them isn't really that bad on top mount as it needs to pull the sides in to flex and they can't. You are going to notice a difference in harmonics and dampening than you will notice a difference in actual flex.

I've not hear of these floating plates, do you have an example board?

There's no reason the sides of a plate need to be bolted down on a top-mount. The 356 Mini and Keycult No.1 are both sandwich mounts with free-hanging left and right sides. With a plastic plate this allows quite a bit of flex. No reason a top-mount couldn't do the same.

Offline Riverman

  • Posts: 32
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 17:38:01 »
Basically light weight stable boards = good. flimsy light crap  bad
The Cherry G80-3000 is a good example of a light weight stable board.  It feels lightweight and flimsy when you pick it up, but when its on a desk and you're typing on it, it's great.  I prefer typing on it over either of my Filcos.

Offline simon5858

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: Denmark
Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #41 on: Sun, 22 October 2017, 04:33:06 »
This is something very subjective I think, I like my Ducky G2 Pro as much as some of the heavier boards. IMO the plate design/material affects the typing feel much more than the weight of the board itself.

Very subjective indeed. Also i think case material plays a bigger part in how a keyboard types than weight alone. Metal construction of course comes with the weight and heft to it, but a dense plastic case can feel just as nice, although different. The plate most definetly plays an important role as well. I have a polycarbonate plate coming for my mech27 soon, and really looking forward to how different it is to the aluminium plate i have in it already!

Offline Magna224

  • Posts: 393
  • Location: Tempe, Arizona
Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 24 October 2017, 22:23:30 »
I definitely prefer lighter boards for sure especially those without metal plates.

The IBM M2, HHKB, Poker 1, KBT Pure, Cherry G80-1865, etc - these were all much better typing experiences that IMHO were made better by not having a metal plate.

I totally understand how some might feel the complete opposite; but when coincidences pile on you begin to learn what you like.

My favorite keyboard since it came out has always been the poker 1 for that reason. I keep mine in a treble case but the board still flexes because it doesn't have much PCB bracing. I just last night bought GH60 to make a more up to date keyboard in that case.
If you live in AZ you can try my keyboards. I usually keep plenty of different ALPS and MX and buckling springs.

Offline jcoffin1981

  • Posts: 590
Re: Heavier ≠ better?
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 25 October 2017, 19:49:08 »
I find the build material of the case to be of little relevance.  Whether it's steel, aluminum, or plastic it doesn't move anywhere when I 'm typing and I don't really care.  Perhaps from a marketing perspective people feel they have more value paying 200 dollars for a super heavy board. I think PCB vs plate mount as well as keycaps and stabilizers have much more to do with the whole typing experience

Don't forget top vs. tray mount.  I have 2 top mounts coming soon, so I cannot speak from experience, but I'm going to guess the typing experience is noticeably different.  I'll know soon enough.

It's the little things that piss me off.  I have so many boards that look amazing and feel amazing, but then each has it own thing to piss me off.  Like the metallic thunk of the space bar that I cannot seem to dampen... or the stabilizer on the left shift that has some sort of catch in it sometimes, even though I carefully lubed, clipped, and tested it before soldering.  They're like people... each with their beauties and each with their imperfections.  I love them for it.  Bring on the fat ones.  Bring on the skinny ones.  I'll have my way with all of them!  :eek:

The keycap never touches the plate or case, so this may be ping.  I've found that in a bag of switches the metallic ping can very from each one.  Swapping it can solve this.  The metal plate however may cause the sound to further resonate.

Yes bring them on! My "type" is female.
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