IBM Keyboards

[stone12321]

Im really interested in a IBM model F or M keyboard and am kind of unsure of what i want. I have  some questions would love if someone could give me some guidance.

Does the key feel of the F really justify the price difference?
I like the idea of a metal or overall heave/sturdy case.
I need to have a numpad.
I would rather not do any mod work and just buy it done or as close to done as possible.

Given the above what are my options and what is the best way for me to get my hands on my dream keyboard?

[fohat.digs]

Clearly, you should buy a Model M. I recommend a new one from Unicomp, fresh and clean with native USB and a full warranty.

After that you may or may not decide to delve into vintage gear.

With luck and/or patience, you can probably get an older IBM Model M for 1/2 to 2/3 the price of the Unicomp.

[Tactile]

I agree with fohat. The drawback to the Model F is that in whatever type you find you'll have to tolerate a really large size or an odd layout - or both. For someone who is not a collector, is used to "modern" keyboards, and just wants to try buckling spring, a Model M is the way to go. It may not be quite as nice to type on as a Model F but the Model M is by far the best choice for you because it has the combination of buckling spring and the modern layout most people expect.

The model M is, in fact, the keyboard which gave us the 101 key layout which was copied by everyone and became - and still is - the de facto standard keyboard layout. That's why it's a Model M - not a Model F - which is very often called The Greatest Keyboard Ever Made.

[ander]

I love fohat.digs, but feel obligated to point out he's strongly M-oriented and seems to have a slight "thing" against F's. (Which is fine—whatever blows your skirt up, right?)

Does the key feel of the F really justify the price difference?

F's are naturally more expensive because there are much fewer of them. (They were produced before personal computing really went mainstream). They were also more expensive to make. (The Model M was actually a cost-reducing design.)

And yes—they feel, respond and sound significantly differently than Model M's. But there's no way to tell if you like them, or prefer one or the other, without trying them yourself.

My personal feeling is that M's and F's are equally charming, and I feel lucky to have some of each to alternate between them. As great as M's are, if I didn't also have an F, I'd need boards with several other types of switches to stay interested in typing. If you have an M and an F, you'll never get tired of the buckling spring, IMHO.

I like the idea of a metal or overall [heavy]/sturdy case... I need to have a numpad... I would rather not do any mod work and just buy it done or as close to done as possible.

Then I suggest an F-122:





...whose layout is the most similar to the standard ANSI layout. Your number pad's there, too—and they're so big and sturdy, it'll redefine your ideas of how a "solid" board feels.  :?)

If you're not into modding, you'll need a Soarer's converter cable to connect it to your PC. They're about $40, but they work great. It'll also enable you to program any of the F's keys however you want—for example, using the extra keys (most of which don't do anything by default), or making the extra middle arrow key another "up" arrow. There's lots of info here on GH, and everyone's glad to help if you have questions.

[fohat.digs]

he's strongly M-oriented and seems to have a slight "thing" against F's.

A newbie might not realize that you are being sarcastic and that all my Ms have been gathering dust for years.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1048948#msg1048948

[ander]

he's strongly M-oriented and seems to have a slight "thing" against F's.

A newbie might not realize that you are being sarcastic and that all my Ms have been gathering dust for years...

Ulp, sorry, dude! Guess I got that backwards—you're big on F's but not M's? Yet you recommended an M to our OP here, as it'd be more practical? That was mighty big of you.

I might also point out that a good reason to consider an F is that, in general, they're appreciating in price much more quickly than M's. (F-122s, for example, which were still in the $100 range last year, now regularly go for over $200.) So if there's any chance you may be interested in one, it'd be a better idea to buy now rather than later.

And if you decide it's not for you and end up selling it, you shouldn't have any trouble getting back what you paid for it—or more, depending on how long you keep it as an investment.  ;?)

[stone12321]

I have a Leopolds F980C and at the end of the day if i dont like whatever i end up with im more than happy going back to that (using whenever needed). This being said, i think i want the F i just dont want to build anything (lack of time not ability). Is there anyone around these parts who sells fully modded Model F's? I found https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/ but for the F109 it comes out to in excess of $600 (a little more than i would like to spend).

Any suggestions?

Thanks again for all of your help.

[stone12321]

he's strongly M-oriented and seems to have a slight "thing" against F's.

A newbie might not realize that you are being sarcastic and that all my Ms have been gathering dust for years...

Ulp, sorry, dude! Guess I got that backwards—you're big on F's but not M's? Yet you recommended an M to our OP here, as it'd be more practical? That was mighty big of you.

I might also point out that a good reason to consider an F is that, in general, they're appreciating in price much more quickly than M's. (F-122s, for example, which were still in the $100 range last year, now regularly go for over $200.) So if there's any chance you may be interested in one, it'd be a better idea to buy now rather than later.

And if you decide it's not for you and end up selling it, you shouldn't have any trouble getting back what you paid for it—or more, depending on how long you keep it as an investment.  ;?)

Also, fohat.digs the grey keyboard in this post is probably the best example of what im ideally looking for that ive seen around.

[0100010]

Correct answer is get both.  Start with a USB 103 key Unicomp M, then progress up to an F once  you decide what to get.  It's what I would do anyway.

[captsis]

If you want completely plug and play, Unicomp is the way to go. But if you want a IBM Model M then check out orihalcon's cables. Absolutely worth the price. If you've never owned a BS board before I'd stick with the M specifically grey badge or older. They have more heft than the blue badges.

[ander]

If you want completely plug and play, Unicomp is the way to go...

Yeah, Unicomps are great—a somewhat different experience from vintage IBM/Lexmark M's (lighter construction, more resonant sound, and a sort of famous "creak" when you pick them up—but not when you use them). But most of them are USB, and lightly-used ones regularly appear on eBay when people find they're too loud for the office.

But if you want a IBM Model M then check out orihalcon's cables. Absolutely worth the price...

If you get a standard M with a PS/2 connector, you don't need a Soarer's cable; all you need is an active PS/2-to-USB converter. I recommend this cable type:





(The mouse connector is optional.) They're only a few bucks shipped, work great, and don't block your other USB ports like the "blue cube" converters do.

Maybe you meant "F" instead of "M" ?

[captsis]

If you want completely plug and play, Unicomp is the way to go...

Yeah, Unicomps are great—a somewhat different experience from vintage IBM/Lexmark M's (lighter construction, more resonant sound, and a sort of famous "creak" when you pick them up—but not when you use them). But most of them are USB, and lightly-used ones regularly appear on eBay when people find they're too loud for the office.

But if you want a IBM Model M then check out orihalcon's cables. Absolutely worth the price...

If you get a standard M with a PS/2 connector, you don't need a Soarer's cable; all you need is an active PS/2-to-USB converter. I recommend this cable type:


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(The mouse connector is optional.) They're only a few bucks shipped, work great, and don't block your other USB ports like the "blue cube" converters do.

Maybe you meant "F" instead of "M" ?

The reason I recommend the cable over the cube, is that it also offers reprogramming. Extra useful if you have a terminal board with all of those function keys.

See my signature

[Zobeid Zuma]

If you really want the vintage experience, an IBM PC-XT keyboard is it—funky layout and all.  The first computers my school got came with those, and I never forgot.  Super-heavy steel case, F-keys on the left, and key switch feeling like no other.  By comparison a Unicomp is flimsy, creaky and clunky.  And although the layout does take some getting used to (especially for a touch typist), it's also why the XTs can be found at a pretty fair price.

[fohat.digs]

But if you want a IBM Model M then check out orihalcon's cables. Absolutely worth the price.

The reason I recommend the cable over the cube, is that it also offers reprogramming. Extra useful if you have a terminal board with all of those function keys.

A standard M with PS/2 cable does not require a converter, a USB adapter will do.

Any sort of terminal is going to require a true "converter" and will probably lack lock lights.

[captsis]

But if you want a IBM Model M then check out orihalcon's cables. Absolutely worth the price.

The reason I recommend the cable over the cube, is that it also offers reprogramming. Extra useful if you have a terminal board with all of those function keys.

A standard M with PS/2 cable does not require a converter, a USB adapter will do.

Any sort of terminal is going to require a true "converter" and will probably lack lock lights.

Some modern computers with ps2 ports are not compatible with the M. I speak from experience. Power draw I believe.

[tron]

If you really want the vintage experience, an IBM PC-XT keyboard is it—funky layout and all.  The first computers my school got came with those, and I never forgot.  Super-heavy steel case, F-keys on the left, and key switch feeling like no other.  By comparison a Unicomp is flimsy, creaky and clunky.  And although the layout does take some getting used to (especially for a touch typist), it's also why the XTs can be found at a pretty fair price.

+1 I love my Model F XT.  It's is a hidden gem if you reprogram the layout to HHKB using Soarers converter cable (I reprogrammed mine to HHKB layout by assigning tilde to enter, backslash to left shift and right brace to backspace). 

Reprogramming is easy using notepad++ 

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0

[rich1051414]

Just my opinion, although the Model F feels nice, that novelty wears off fast when you then notice how weird and inconvenient the layout is, compounded by the ridiculous footprint of the keyboard. If the later doesn't concern you, then it is worth it. Otherwise, it may just be a collector of dust.

[ander]

The reason I recommend the cable over the cube, is that it also offers reprogramming. Extra useful if you have a terminal board with all of those function keys... See my signature ;)

You're absolutely correct about the programming capabilities. I don't see a terminal board in your sig, though—did somebody walk off with it?  :?)

If you really want the vintage experience, an IBM PC-XT keyboard is it—funky layout and all.  The first computers my school got came with those, and I never forgot.  Super-heavy steel case, F-keys on the left, and key switch feeling like no other.  By comparison a Unicomp is flimsy, creaky and clunky.  And although the layout does take some getting used to (especially for a touch typist), it's also why the XTs can be found at a pretty fair price.

+1 I love my Model F XT.  It's is a hidden gem if you reprogram the layout to HHKB using Soarers converter cable (I reprogrammed mine to HHKB layout by assigning tilde to enter, backslash to left shift and right brace to backspace)...
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0

Yup, the XT is a great-feeling keyboard, even compared to other versions of the Model F. That said, I think the F-122 is the most practical Model F for most people, as it comes closest to the standard ANSI layout:





...as long as you don't mind sacrificing about a third of your desk space to it, LOL. (Personally, I enjoy that kind of keebly eccentricity... see below.) Unfortunately, as more peeps have discovered how cool they are, they've seen a big jump in value. Only last year you could get them for around $100. Now they're going for more than twice as much. (If I already mentioned that here, pardon my senility.)

I'm also very fortunate to have an F-AT which my friend Dorkvader modified for me to make it closer to ANSI—and which I understand even normal, non-genius peeps can do with some time and patience.

Just my opinion, although the Model F feels nice, that novelty wears off fast when you then notice how weird and inconvenient the layout is, compounded by the ridiculous footprint of the keyboard. If the later doesn't concern you, then it is worth it. Otherwise, it may just be a collector of dust.

It's true the XT's layout can be vexing at first. But the older we get, the more important it is for us to do things in new ways—it keeps the brain sharp.

And as far as the "ridiculous footprints" of boards like the F-122 and F-XT go, personally I like the novelty of having something so non-compact and efficient on my desk. It's a great attention-getter, and all those extra keys on the 122 give people the impression I'm some kind of Mad Scientist, LOL. Vive le difference, y'know?

[SamirD]

Im really interested in a IBM model F or M keyboard and am kind of unsure of what i want. I have  some questions would love if someone could give me some guidance.

Does the key feel of the F really justify the price difference?
I like the idea of a metal or overall heave/sturdy case.
I need to have a numpad.
I would rather not do any mod work and just buy it done or as close to done as possible.

Given the above what are my options and what is the best way for me to get my hands on my dream keyboard?

Does the F justify the price difference?  Yes and no.  Yes when you're purely talking about key feel.  My hands still remember the F from typing class in the early 1990s as it is different than the M for sure (which I use every day).  No, when it comes to the layout because as previously stated in the this thread, the whole 101 key layout started with the Model M--so using an model M to its full potential doesn't take much effort at all.

I work heavily with numbers and absolutely depend on the numpad on the model M.  I also fly on it, making financial data entry effortless.    And to give you some idea how much of an increase in productivity the numpad on the M is for me--I have a spare M with its own carrying case that I take with my laptop if I'm going to be doing any type of numerical input in the field.

To buy and get as close to done as possible--buy an M with a ps/2 port and connect a ps2-usb converter like has been previously posted in the thread.  You can also buy a Unicomp M made however you want it with a usb and just plug it in and get to work.  While the Unicomps do feel a bit different than the original M, I recently acquired one and actually like the feel of it over some of the Ms I've been using lately.  Buckling spring has small variations within the whole family, but 90% is completely familiar once you've used one--it's like nothing else. 

I hope this helps, and I hope that you add a BS board to your collection soon. 

[Zobeid Zuma]

Does the F justify the price difference?  Yes and no.  Yes when you're purely talking about key feel.  My hands still remember the F from typing class in the early 1990s as it is different than the M for sure (which I use every day).

The F definitely feels better than the M.  However, even the F is not to everyone's taste.  It's a bit harsh to me.  I like Kailh BOX Pale Blue switches better than either of them.  My next build will be a TKL with the new BOX Navy switches that I've got pre-ordered.  As much as we venerate the vintage IBMs, a lot of innovation is happening now with switches.

BTW, I've also got one of the new F77 keyboards pre-ordered.  There's Model F technology combined with a layout that seems quite modern.  It's too bad they are rather pricey, and we've had a long wait with many delays.  It does seem like the end of the journey is getting near.

[captsis]

The reason I recommend the cable over the cube, is that it also offers reprogramming. Extra useful if you have a terminal board with all of those function keys... See my signature

You're absolutely correct about the programming capabilities. I don't see a terminal board in your sig, though—did somebody walk off with it?  :?)

Board is kinda irrelevant considering they make several different cables that accomplish the same thing. But you are correct I do not own any other ibm models.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[SamirD]

As much as we venerate the vintage IBMs, a lot of innovation is happening now with switches.

BTW, I've also got one of the new F77 keyboards pre-ordered.  There's Model F technology combined with a layout that seems quite modern.  It's too bad they are rather pricey, and we've had a long wait with many delays.  It does seem like the end of the journey is getting near.

That's very true about the pace of innovations in switches.  Just a few years ago no-one thought mech keyboards were in mainstream demand.  Now, you can tell almost every manufacturer is trying to get a piece of the pie.

I'd really love to hear what you think of the f77 once you get it.  Seems like a lot of work has gone into them, and I'd love to hear how the end product justified the journey. 

[Zobeid Zuma]

I'd really love to hear what you think of the f77 once you get it.  Seems like a lot of work has gone into them, and I'd love to hear how the end product justified the journey. 

I have a friend who is a bit of electronics hoarder, and he's got a "like new in box" IBM XT keyboard.  The box is grimy on the outside, but inside the keyboard still in its plastic baggie.  (I told him to put it on eBay, but he doesn't trust this newfangled "interwebs" stuff!)  It might be an interesting experiment to borrow it from him when I get the F77 and do a side-by-side comparison.

[fohat.digs]

(I told him to put it on eBay, but he doesn't trust this newfangled "interwebs" stuff!)

I think that the prices of these monstrosities are way out of whack. Until a couple of years ago, it was not easy to sell them for more than about $35, but now people routinely pay double or triple that, or more.

Unlike their cousin, the AT, which is genuinely scarce as well as being "user-friendly", there are probably millions of XTs in circulation, still today, although not New-In-Box.

[SamirD]

I have a friend who is a bit of electronics hoarder, and he's got a "like new in box" IBM XT keyboard.  The box is grimy on the outside, but inside the keyboard still in its plastic baggie.  (I told him to put it on eBay, but he doesn't trust this newfangled "interwebs" stuff!)  It might be an interesting experiment to borrow it from him when I get the F77 and do a side-by-side comparison.

That would be a super-cool comparison!  Probably the best test to see if the production run met its goal. 

[SamirD]

(I told him to put it on eBay, but he doesn't trust this newfangled "interwebs" stuff!)

I think that the prices of these monstrosities are way out of whack. Until a couple of years ago, it was not easy to sell them for more than about $35, but now people routinely pay double or triple that, or more.

Unlike their cousin, the AT, which is genuinely scarce as well as being "user-friendly", there are probably millions of XTs in circulation, still today, although not New-In-Box.

I think it's simply that people have discovered what we have known all along.  I still remember fishing out M after M after M from a big box of keyboards at a used computer show that said 'Keyboards $1 each'.  I stopped at 10, but I should have gotten more.

[Zobeid Zuma]

I think that the prices of these monstrosities are way out of whack. Until a couple of years ago, it was not easy to sell them for more than about $35, but now people routinely pay double or triple that, or more.

Before Soarer's converter came along, there wasn't too much you could do with them.

[_rubik]

I've been cross posting this across a couple threads (so I apologize if this seems like a gloat), but I just got my SSK in the mail and could not love it anymore. I understand a numpad is one of you're requirements, but as far as the build quality goes; it's unrivaled. 'Sturdy' is an understatement. As for reprogramming, I personally just used Xmodmaps to switch around what I needed. I can see why that's not the best solution, so maybe I too need to look into a programmable adapter. 

[ander]

I have a friend who is a bit of electronics hoarder, and he's got a "like new in box" IBM XT keyboard.  The box is grimy on the outside, but inside the keyboard still in its plastic baggie...

Is he ever going to actually use it? Or just take it out now and then, look at it, and moan "My Precious"?

My dictionary defines "keyboard" as "an assemblage of systematically arranged keys by which a machine is operated." So if you never use it to operate anything, is it still a keyboard? Or is it like a room in someone's house that's so fancy there's a rope across the doorway to keep you from going in?

I think that the prices of these monstrosities are way out of whack. Until a couple of years ago, it was not easy to sell them for more than about $35, but now people routinely pay double or triple that, or more...

Supply and demand, my friend... "Value" is subjective. As long as people are willing to pay a certain amount for something, that's what it's worth.

I think it's simply that people have discovered what we have known all along.  I still remember fishing out M after M after M from a big box of keyboards at a used computer show that said 'Keyboards $1 each'.  I stopped at 10, but I should have gotten more. :o

Yowch! LOL

Most of us have similar stories. I grew up in Studio City, California, just up the hill from a bunch of film studios and production houses. My friends and I used to ride our bikes over to Hanna-Barbera and root around in their (unlocked!) bins where they discarded their unused animation cels. I think my mom must've found them, thought they were worthless and thrown them out, as I don't remember seeing them since my early teens. Now they sell on eBay for thousands of bucks each.

(She also got mad at me once and burned about half of my early Marvel and DC comics, including, I specifically remember, a Batman #3 and some of the first-year Spider-Mans. Thanks, mom—if you hadn't been so "instructive", our son could probably have attended a better university .  :?|  )

[SamirD]

My dictionary defines "keyboard" as "an assemblage of systematically arranged keys by which a machine is operated." So if you never use it to operate anything, is it still a keyboard? Or is it like a room in someone's house that's so fancy there's a rope across the doorway to keep you from going in?

Yowch! LOL

Most of us have similar stories. I grew up in Studio City, California, just up the hill from a bunch of film studios and production houses. My friends and I used to ride our bikes over to Hanna-Barbera and root around in their (unlocked!) bins where they discarded their unused animation cels. I think my mom must've found them, thought they were worthless and thrown them out, as I don't remember seeing them since my early teens. Now they sell on eBay for thousands of bucks each.

(She also got mad at me once and burned about half of my early Marvel and DC comics, including, I specifically remember, a Batman #3 and some of the first-year Spider-Mans. Thanks, mom—if you hadn't been so "instructive", our son could probably have attended a better university .  :?|  )

I think a keyboard in a box that's never used is a bit akin to the tree that fell in the forest that no one heard, lol.  And now that I think about it, it's the buckling spring that never got heard, lol.

That's amazing!  I can only imagine having actual animation cells from those great studios!  And oh the loss of those comics--but I guess parents did what they thought was right at the time.  My dad yelled at me 2 days straight for taking all my money out of a paltry 2% youth savers account and moving it all to Merrill Lynch and buying mutual funds.  After I had 11%+ return in my first year, we talked about investments all the time.  If he only encouraged me to invest sooner, I would have never had to work in my life at all! 

[Snowdog993]

Im really interested in a IBM model F or M keyboard and am kind of unsure of what i want. I have  some questions would love if someone could give me some guidance.

Does the key feel of the F really justify the price difference?
I like the idea of a metal or overall heave/sturdy case.
I need to have a numpad.
I would rather not do any mod work and just buy it done or as close to done as possible.

Given the above what are my options and what is the best way for me to get my hands on my dream keyboard?

Start with a Unicomp.  Get the 104 key and order a long spacebar for it. Maybe even get the different LED overlay for a great look!




You can get either the PS/2 version or the USB version, I'd recommend the USB version to start. No hassling with cable adapters etc... Besides, you get a windows key and menu key as well!

Whatever you decide, you will notice the difference between a Model M keyboard and any other. Buckling Springs are unlike any other type of keyboard out there!

Good luck!