Headphone Thread.

[noisyturtle]

In my experience Shiit amps are kind of picky as to what headphones they like to work well with, but when they do pair they sound amazing. If I plug my Denon's or Senns into my Lyr they sound like trash, but they make my LCD's and Beyerdynamics absolutely sing.

[arplod]

The real problem is that you don't know if a particular combo is good or not. Indeed, even some much-hyped add-ons (like the Essence STX) can suffer pretty badly from EM noise leakage in certain slot configurations.

At the same time though, it's pointless generalising 'all onboards suck, buy a DAC' because onboards have improved quite a lot as of late in general thanks to various Microsoft edicts for compatibility.

A properly designed DAC and amp will work great with any setup. Typically if you do DAC+amps combo they'll be external which eliminates the EMI problems you mentioned.

The quality of onboard sound has little to do with microsoft and compatibility.

I should have mentioned Intel in there as well - but they have minimums for audio quality, which have been ratcheted up over the years.

You don't tend to find quality onboard audio because most manufacturers are more interested in packing more quantity of features than quality of. Asus is very capable in producing decent soundcards but it is pretty apparent they don't even bother trying when it comes to onboard audio. That is why don't see them quoting any of their onboard's SNR, frequency response, output impedance etc but go on for days about supporting 192kHz audio (does anybody actually listen to high sampling rate audio?).

I'm not going to say onboard audio sucks but they are inferior to any well engineered sound interface. If the listener doesn't care or appreciates the difference then onboard is probably good enough. Having said that, DAC/amp is rarely a bad investment, you can use it for your next computer/laptops and always get a great sound.

Sure, for a couple of hundred plus. As I said if you happen to get a decent onboard, it may not be a major boost over a $100-class DAC, if at all. I personally prefer to skip the toys for the Head-Fi crowd and just get straight to the actual high-end and pro audio when going discrete. But what I said about onboard still stands nevertheless in my experience.

If you're referring to the Intel HDA specs then the minimum specs is really for the interfacing of the devices rather than the audio quality. Intel has some guidelines on circuit designs so you know you won't get clicks and pops but don't expect them to measure well.

High end hifi stuff is one thing but pro-audio is another. Pro audio equipment usually require balance audio and as a result they typically have a lower SNR. Also they are usually designed to drive studio headphones which are 250~600ohms and their output impedance is quite high (typically around 30-50ohms) and way too high to drive normal headphones properly.

This is kind of Head-Fi rote nonsense. Sure low-impedance phones work OK on a lot of studio gear. It's not all DT250-250's and HD600's out there IRL you know, jeez.

I don't know if you're trolling or not but if you're using low impedance loads like in ears (8 ohms) and your output impedance is 50ohms then you're looking at a damping factor of 0.16. There is absolutely no chance you'll get the intended frequency response of the interface, if you're looking at regular headphones 32 ohms you're still looking at a damping factor which is less than one. A high damping factor is essential for a flat frequency response. This isn't Head-Fi nonsense, damping factors and impedance matching was taught to me when I was doing my undergrad in EE.

If you think it works "ok" then whatever. I guess your definition of "ok" just means it produces sound and no regard for high fidelity.

We aren't talking about in-ears (with which absolutely there are frequently impedance issues) and you know it.

It's all very well throwing around theory, but clearly without genuine relevant experience you're the bigger troll.

(And even this combo, which I wouldn't normally use = 1.03)

[Johan]

Hi, this has probably been asked a million times but is there any good small headphone amp for a decent price? I've been looking at the NuForce udac2, according to my dads hifi magazine its the most bang for the buck.

[thegunner100]

Hi, this has probably been asked a million times but is there any good small headphone amp for a decent price? I've been looking at the NuForce udac2, according to my dads hifi magazine its the most bang for the buck.

You're probably better off with a fiio e17. It's a portable amp and dac, and has many more usages than the udac2 such as treble & bass controls. What headphones are you looking to drive?

[Johan]

I'm currently using the RS180 but I'm looking for some quality wired headphones that feel more "open" and less isolating, I've only heard good things about the Hd 598's, But I'm looking for an Amp now.

[davkol]

Took the bait, ordered the 600 Ohm version of HD 25. I wonder if a laptop soundcard will be able to drive it.

[pby]

The real problem is that you don't know if a particular combo is good or not. Indeed, even some much-hyped add-ons (like the Essence STX) can suffer pretty badly from EM noise leakage in certain slot configurations.

At the same time though, it's pointless generalising 'all onboards suck, buy a DAC' because onboards have improved quite a lot as of late in general thanks to various Microsoft edicts for compatibility.

A properly designed DAC and amp will work great with any setup. Typically if you do DAC+amps combo they'll be external which eliminates the EMI problems you mentioned.

The quality of onboard sound has little to do with microsoft and compatibility.

I should have mentioned Intel in there as well - but they have minimums for audio quality, which have been ratcheted up over the years.

You don't tend to find quality onboard audio because most manufacturers are more interested in packing more quantity of features than quality of. Asus is very capable in producing decent soundcards but it is pretty apparent they don't even bother trying when it comes to onboard audio. That is why don't see them quoting any of their onboard's SNR, frequency response, output impedance etc but go on for days about supporting 192kHz audio (does anybody actually listen to high sampling rate audio?).

I'm not going to say onboard audio sucks but they are inferior to any well engineered sound interface. If the listener doesn't care or appreciates the difference then onboard is probably good enough. Having said that, DAC/amp is rarely a bad investment, you can use it for your next computer/laptops and always get a great sound.

Sure, for a couple of hundred plus. As I said if you happen to get a decent onboard, it may not be a major boost over a $100-class DAC, if at all. I personally prefer to skip the toys for the Head-Fi crowd and just get straight to the actual high-end and pro audio when going discrete. But what I said about onboard still stands nevertheless in my experience.

If you're referring to the Intel HDA specs then the minimum specs is really for the interfacing of the devices rather than the audio quality. Intel has some guidelines on circuit designs so you know you won't get clicks and pops but don't expect them to measure well.

High end hifi stuff is one thing but pro-audio is another. Pro audio equipment usually require balance audio and as a result they typically have a lower SNR. Also they are usually designed to drive studio headphones which are 250~600ohms and their output impedance is quite high (typically around 30-50ohms) and way too high to drive normal headphones properly.

This is kind of Head-Fi rote nonsense. Sure low-impedance phones work OK on a lot of studio gear. It's not all DT250-250's and HD600's out there IRL you know, jeez.

I don't know if you're trolling or not but if you're using low impedance loads like in ears (8 ohms) and your output impedance is 50ohms then you're looking at a damping factor of 0.16. There is absolutely no chance you'll get the intended frequency response of the interface, if you're looking at regular headphones 32 ohms you're still looking at a damping factor which is less than one. A high damping factor is essential for a flat frequency response. This isn't Head-Fi nonsense, damping factors and impedance matching was taught to me when I was doing my undergrad in EE.

If you think it works "ok" then whatever. I guess your definition of "ok" just means it produces sound and no regard for high fidelity.

We aren't talking about in-ears (with which absolutely there are frequently impedance issues) and you know it.

It's all very well throwing around theory, but clearly without genuine relevant experience you're the bigger troll.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
(And even this combo, which I wouldn't normally use = 1.03)

Worked as a live sound engineer and console design but I guess that doesn't account for anything relevant.

[bavman]

Took the bait, ordered the 600 Ohm version of HD 25. I wonder if a laptop soundcard will be able to drive it.

Probably, I heard they aren't as hard to drive as most 600ohm headphones, it might not get very loud, but it'll still probably be good enough for normal listening levels

[fuzzybaffy]

Are the DT770's still in production by Beyer? Since they weren't listed at headroom, I kind of assumed they were discontinued.

If so, what is a good closed headphone, that does rock, pop, hip-hop, and electronica well? I'm looking for something in the $300-500 range.

[thegunner100]

Are the DT770's still in production by Beyer? Since they weren't listed at headroom, I kind of assumed they were discontinued.

If so, what is a good closed headphone, that does rock, pop, hip-hop, and electronica well? I'm looking for something in the $300-500 range.

Yes, they're still in production. There aren't too many closed headphones in that price range. Maybe try the beyer t70? They pretty much sound like an improved version of the dt880, so they're very good for each genre. The t70's bass is pretty neutral though so that might not be to your liking for those genres.

[davkol]

Took the bait, ordered the 600 Ohm version of HD 25. I wonder if a laptop soundcard will be able to drive it.

Probably, I heard they aren't as hard to drive as most 600ohm headphones, it might not get very loud, but it'll still probably be good enough for normal listening levels

Well, that's what I've read too, but I've had some doubts about my thinkpad recently. For example, it doesn't work with headsets that have 4pin jack.

[fuzzybaffy]

Are the DT770's still in production by Beyer? Since they weren't listed at headroom, I kind of assumed they were discontinued.

If so, what is a good closed headphone, that does rock, pop, hip-hop, and electronica well? I'm looking for something in the $300-500 range.

Yes, they're still in production. There aren't too many closed headphones in that price range. Maybe try the beyer t70? They pretty much sound like an improved version of the dt880, so they're very good for each genre. The t70's bass is pretty neutral though so that might not be to your liking for those genres.

Gotcha, thank you. Yes, I looked up the T70, and I'm all for neutral bass (not a bass-head myself). It's definitely a headphone I'm considering if my budget gets there.

[thegunner100]

Are the DT770's still in production by Beyer? Since they weren't listed at headroom, I kind of assumed they were discontinued.

If so, what is a good closed headphone, that does rock, pop, hip-hop, and electronica well? I'm looking for something in the $300-500 range.

Yes, they're still in production. There aren't too many closed headphones in that price range. Maybe try the beyer t70? They pretty much sound like an improved version of the dt880, so they're very good for each genre. The t70's bass is pretty neutral though so that might not be to your liking for those genres.

Gotcha, thank you. Yes, I looked up the T70, and I'm all for neutral bass (not a bass-head myself). It's definitely a headphone I'm considering if my budget gets there.

I was able to buy my pair of T70 (250ohm) for $345 (new) from a winter sale event last year . They're really a great pair of headphones, especially if you pair it up with a decent amp and dac. Even then, they're not too picky and scale very well.

[fuzzybaffy]

Are the DT770's still in production by Beyer? Since they weren't listed at headroom, I kind of assumed they were discontinued.

If so, what is a good closed headphone, that does rock, pop, hip-hop, and electronica well? I'm looking for something in the $300-500 range.

Yes, they're still in production. There aren't too many closed headphones in that price range. Maybe try the beyer t70? They pretty much sound like an improved version of the dt880, so they're very good for each genre. The t70's bass is pretty neutral though so that might not be to your liking for those genres.

Gotcha, thank you. Yes, I looked up the T70, and I'm all for neutral bass (not a bass-head myself). It's definitely a headphone I'm considering if my budget gets there.

I was able to buy my pair of T70 (250ohm) for $345 (new) from a winter sale event last year . They're really a great pair of headphones, especially if you pair it up with a decent amp and dac. Even then, they're not too picky and scale very well.

Haha. Nice. Let me guess... from Amazon? I remember they had a pretty good sale of those at around the same price range.

Thank you for the heads-up. These are definitely in consideration.

[thegunner100]

Sonicelectronix actually, but GL getting a good price on the T70s!

[thegunner100]

Also, look into perhaps the MrSpeaker's mad dogs as well. They're well within your budget. MrSpeakers will be at the NY head-fi meet, so I'll get a chance to listen to them!

Is anyone else here going to the NY head-fi meet?

[rknize]

I just picked up a mint pair of Sennheiser HD-650's from eBay (in original box) for a pretty decent price.  After listening to the DT880 Pros at work for so long, these are a breath of fresh air.  They have that cheaper, plasticy feeling that all Senns have, but the reduced weight and the shape of the cans make them more comfortable after many hours of listening.  They are darker than the DT-880s, of course, but are more open and sound more lively at the same time.  Not sure how the difference in impedance is affecting how this little E17 drives them.  I'm going to do a more controlled comparison of all four of these on my good DAC at home at some point.



Left to right: Senn HD-650, Senn HD-558 ("598" mod), Beyer DT880 Pro, ATH M50

[thegunner100]

Nice, how much did you get the hd-650 for? I've always wanted to try the hd600 and 650 on my own setup, but i don't know of anyone who has them

[rknize]

I got them for under $350.

[PointyFox]

I just picked up a mint pair of Sennheiser HD-650's from eBay (in original box) for a pretty decent price.  After listening to the DT880 Pros at work for so long, these are a breath of fresh air.  They have that cheaper, plasticy feeling that all Senns have, but the reduced weight and the shape of the cans make them more comfortable after many hours of listening.  They are darker than the DT-880s, of course, but are more open and sound more lively at the same time.  Not sure how the difference in impedance is affecting how this little E17 drives them.  I'm going to do a more controlled comparison of all four of these on my good DAC at home at some point.

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Left to right: Senn HD-650, Senn HD-558 ("598" mod), Beyer DT880 Pro, ATH M50

The DT880  has very low bass impact compared to the HD600/650 and a pretty high peak in the frequency response around 8-8.5 kHz which makes it sound brighter and more hissy/sibilant (this peak corresponds to the 's' sound).  I have also noted that the HD600/650 is much more comfortable than the upper-end Beyerdynamics.

[ApocalypseMaow]

Got some ATH AD900s. I don't know a whole lot about headphone, but I do like these a lot so far.

Please excuse the dumb face...  )

[rknize]

I just picked up a mint pair of Sennheiser HD-650's from eBay (in original box) for a pretty decent price.  After listening to the DT880 Pros at work for so long, these are a breath of fresh air.  They have that cheaper, plasticy feeling that all Senns have, but the reduced weight and the shape of the cans make them more comfortable after many hours of listening.  They are darker than the DT-880s, of course, but are more open and sound more lively at the same time.  Not sure how the difference in impedance is affecting how this little E17 drives them.  I'm going to do a more controlled comparison of all four of these on my good DAC at home at some point.

Show Image

Left to right: Senn HD-650, Senn HD-558 ("598" mod), Beyer DT880 Pro, ATH M50

The DT880  has very low bass impact compared to the HD600/650 and a pretty high peak in the frequency response around 8-8.5 kHz which makes it sound brighter and more hissy/sibilant (this peak corresponds to the 's' sound).  I have also noted that the HD600/650 is much more comfortable than the upper-end Beyerdynamics.

That is true of the DT770 for sure.  I found the DT880 much more tame with respect to that 8 kHz peak and liked their flatter response compared to the M50s (especially with bass-heavy music).  I've been switching between these 4 sets here at home, playing various genres of music and I have to say: I am not liking the DT880 as much as I was before.  I also noticed that the right channel's output is low.  They've been dropped many times at work, so I wonder if something is amiss.

[thegunner100]

Beyers shine when used with tube amps. I didn't really have problems with sibilance when I had my dt880/600. I placed an order for a Schiit asgard 2 last night, which should arrive sometime next week.

[jwaz]

Anyone interested in trading for a pair of DT-770 250s? I can't use closed back headphones anymore and would be interested in trading for something open.

[tufty]

Just replaced the foam in my HD490s.  After 20+ years, the original stuff had crumbled to dust.

I took the time to add some "direct through" holes, so not only are they now comfortable again, but they also have better bass.

Wahey!.  Aphex Twin at earbleed volume without annoying the neighbours.  Mind you, I'd better clean the kitchen table before Mrs tufty has a fit.

[ApocalypseMaow]

Anyone interested in trading for a pair of DT-770 250s? I can't use closed back headphones anymore and would be interested in trading for something open.

How old are your DT770s?

[jwaz]

Anyone interested in trading for a pair of DT-770 250s? I can't use closed back headphones anymore and would be interested in trading for something open.

How old are your DT770s?

Bought them brand new maybe a few months ago? (I still have the original box) Barely used them because I have a slight ring in my ears they exacerbate, so I ended up sticking with my Grados for now. I'll throw them up in the classifieds in the next week but feel free to PM me if you have any interest.

[Grim Fandango]

Got a pair of the Sony MDR-V6 headphones a few months ago. Very happy with them.

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These are an amazing buy and value for money. I have a set that my dad bought somewhere in the 90's and they are still going strong. It is amazing to me that I used these to listen to stories from cassette as a kid, and that I still have them now AND they have a decent audioquality. You can get separate extra earpads for them if the earpad starts to fall apart, which is the only thing that will wear down with heavy use I found.

I also have the sennheiser HD518 which I am pretty happy with given that I got a great deal on them.

[ApocalypseMaow]

Anyone interested in trading for a pair of DT-770 250s? I can't use closed back headphones anymore and would be interested in trading for something open.

How old are your DT770s?

Bought them brand new maybe a few months ago? (I still have the original box) Barely used them because I have a slight ring in my ears they exacerbate, so I ended up sticking with my Grados for now. I'll throw them up in the classifieds in the next week but feel free to PM me if you have any interest.

I'll keep an eye out for those. I've wanted to try some out for a while.

[Flyersfan1]

My favorites

[takaki]

Any Bottlehead Crack love here ?

[mkawa]

woah, bottlehead has gone all out on headphones. three kits is as many kits as they used to vend _total_ when they had only serious tube amps and a line preamp

[Sniping]

Nice! I hear so many great things about the Crack; Too bad I don't have a HD650 

[mkawa]

don't worry, i don't even have an hd650; why bother when my hd600s sound better every day at 12 years old

[thegunner100]

Someone should bring their HD600/650 to the next NYC GH meet so that I can try it out with my setup/music.

[takaki]

I actually liked the HD600 better than the HD650 too. Club HD600.

[davkol]

I've been testing DT 770 M since yesterday. There's no doubt they sound considerably worse than regular DT 770 Pro, but I feel like I should have gone with Beyers from the beginning.

[thegunner100]

I actually purchased an HD600 for $283 shipped last night for the sake of trying them out and comparing them with Beyers.

[Masterchief79]

Anybody has experiences with the AKG K-701? I got one for christmas, it just broke (think it's a problem with the cable, one side doesn't work anymore). I must say I'm very disappointed by AKG products so far. I had 80€ In-Ears by them a few years ago, got them RMA'ed 3 times, and they broke 3 times in a row again, always within the first 3 weeks.

[mauri]

Anybody has experiences with the AKG K-701? I got one for christmas, it just broke (think it's a problem with the cable, one side doesn't work anymore). I must say I'm very disappointed by AKG products so far. I had 80€ In-Ears by them a few years ago, got them RMA'ed 3 times, and they broke 3 times in a row again, always within the first 3 weeks.

I've had my akg701s from thomann for like 2 years, only a few complaints; the headband or whatever you wanna call it, I've got literally exact same markings ON MY SCALP, its like the ****ing alps weird right, guess I shoulda cut em off. Then theres the goddamn chord, it's always under my chair that being said, I've started to experience mild disruption of the chord, I guess thats fixable.

Anyway, soundwise they're pretty much perfect for me, tho some people would argue it has a really weak bass :3 I've got ESI juli@ soundcard, heed canamp and some great RCAs I got from my local shop (musical blues?)

[thegunner100]

Not sure if the T70s are not picky, but I have trouble telling major differences between my Little Dot MK IV SE and my Asgard 2 that I received yesterday.

[thegunner100]

So I bought a HD650 just to compare with my HD600. I found that they had very similar sound signatures, with the HD650 being a bit too laid back, polite, etc, AKA lacking treble for my tastes. There are lots of people who like the HD650, but I like my music to be engaging if it calls for it, and relaxing if it calls for it. So the HD650s will be returned sometime next week

[fuzzybaffy]

^ Wow. I did not realize you had the HD-600 (and now the HD-650) when I asked you about the T70.

I have the HD-650.

How does the T70 compare to both the HD-600 and HD-650? How's the bass? The treble? How are they for electronica, hip-hop, and rock?

[thegunner100]

I didn't have the sennheisers back then, I only got them this week.

Compared to the sennheisers, the T70s are more neutral sounding. The bass of the T70s are very flat; they do not have the weight or impact of the senns but the T70s have better extension. The T70s are also faster than the senns. This combination is great for electronica if you like the treble-happy type of music rather than the bass-heavy. I don't listen to much hip-hop, but I don't think the T70s have enough bass impact for it.

The mids on the T70 are bit recessed and slightly compared to the senns. I actually like this about the t70 for some genres. The slightly recessed mids and neutral bass leads to t70 sounding much "cleaner" than the sennheisers, with better instrument seperation. Like the bass though, the mids of the sennheisers have a lot more weight to it and you can hear it in strings and vocals.

Although the T70s are closed headphones, they manage to have a large soundstage; sometimes I feel that the T70s are more open than the sennheisers. I feel that the T70s also fair better at imaging, though I haven't tested this extensively.

The t70's treble wins hands down compared to the sennheisers though. It's very detailed and smooth sounding, and rarely harsh to my ears. The hd600's treble is still very present, but don't have the sparkle that the t70s do. The hd650s have the most laid back treble of the three.

Overall, I really like the t70 and the hd600. The hd600s have a very nice tonal balance that's engaging, and is a pleasure to listen to. The t70s, while being more analytical, I feel are still great for almost all genres because of its clean sound; I actually prefer it for orchestral and instrumental music. The hd650 like i said in my earlier post, are just way too laid back for my tastes.

Well, that's my opinion on the three headphones! I hope that helps.

[fuzzybaffy]

Wow, thank you for the quick and detailed reply. The T70 is now REALLY high on my wish-list, mostly because of the detailed and smooth treble you mentioned. Also, bass impact isn't much of a problem for me, but bass extension, definitely. The HD-650 has plenty of bass impact... when it can actually find bass to play. But there are some hip-hop songs, where some frequency bands appear to be completely missing with the HD-650. So, on some songs, the HD-650 is simply astounding, yet others, it just falls completely flat. It's frustrating.

Anyway, thank you again for your impressions. If I could ask one more question, could you see the T70 as being a good "all-around" headphone, that does most genres well, compared to the HD-650?

[thegunner100]

Yes, they're definitely great all-rounders just like the dt880 is, but improved upon in almost every way. I think the hd600's are the best all-rounders out of the three, but the t70 is very closely behind, and is a better all-rounder than the hd650 imo.

Edit: while the t70's treble is smooth, it is still a tad bit brighter than the hd600.

[fuzzybaffy]

Oh man... now that you mention the HD-600 as being a better all-arounder than the T70, I'm now also thinking about the HD-600, haha.

But, I still think I want a closed headphone this time around, so most likely I'll go with the T70. Thanks again for your impressions.

[thegunner100]

Oh man... now that you mention the HD-600 as being a better all-arounder than the T70, I'm now also thinking about the HD-600, haha.

But, I still think I want a closed headphone this time around, so most likely I'll go with the T70. Thanks again for your impressions.

Yeah I think the t70 would be a better choice for you, since it'll be a much different presentation. The hd600 isn't THAT much different from the hd650.

[deadlyfunzo]

Gentleman,

I have abit of a question which I would like some help with.

You guys are all pretty switched on with this stuff and figured this would be the place to ask.

I currently have this set-up.

Sennheiser HD 518's (I like them, I only use them every once and a while though)

online photo sharing

Sound Blaster Fatality (ehh....)

screenshot green

Swan M50's (Would buy another pair just for the novelty. They are that good)

image hosting over 10mb

I want to improve my current audio-setup (For music, gaming is 2nd)
Now, I mainly use my speakers because they are pretty much beast as, but I want to get the most out of my headphones.
So, I was hoping to get a DAC/AMP combo which would allow me to output the improved signal to speakers plus provide me with a headphone amp that is better than the soundblaster one.

I was thinking of the Audio Engine D1, it seems popular and is in my price range. <$200

But then I wasn't sure if I would use TOSLINK or USB.
And I have no idea if the soundcard would be worth it after I get this, because my Motherboard has a digital output.

So basically, what should I get/do to improve this setup?

(I use FOOBAR with FLAC files which I rip myself, if you're wondering.)

[thegunner100]

This might just be what you're looking for:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43874.0