HHKB 2 vs Realforce 87U 45g

[Altis]

I got Cherry Reds on the Kul.  I replaced the keycaps with some Ducky thick PBT dye subs in OEM profile which lowered the tone of the keystrokes if/when I bottom out. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't but I am finding this board consistently quieter than the board with mx browns I had previously used for two years. Haven't had any "ping" in the two weeks i've had the board but still might do the case sound deadening mod. I actually have  that exact same material you used in the photos. How many layers do you suggest for the kul?

I can't quite remember and it depends on the thickness. I usually fill enough so that it compresses a bit when closed up.

That's good you don't have the ping. It seems that the ping is pretty well exclusive to the heavier switches, namely MX Clear. Since having put 62g Zealios in mine, the notorious ping has pretty well gone away.

[The Hobbiest]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

[Altis]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

The KUL ES-87 is one of the most well thought-out keyboards I've ever used, if not the most. The build quality and execution is also right up there.

I'm not sure I'd say the 55g is much lighter than MX Black.

[iLLucionist]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

The KUL ES-87 is one of the most well thought-out keyboards I've ever used, if not the most. The build quality and execution is also right up there.

I'm not sure I'd say the 55g is much lighter than MX Black.

Love the KUL. Although I love my 55g 87U as well, I think the KUL has even better build quality.

[Altis]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

The KUL ES-87 is one of the most well thought-out keyboards I've ever used, if not the most. The build quality and execution is also right up there.

I'm not sure I'd say the 55g is much lighter than MX Black.

Love the KUL. Although I love my 55g 87U as well, I think the KUL has even better build quality.

The build quality of the KUL is absolutely top-shelf. It's a shame about the ping, but otherwise it's a very solid keyboard with a thick case plastic and tons of well thought-out features; little details like having multiple rubber pads on the bottom for using the various angles.

[iLLucionist]

Not to hijack thread but i'm loving the solid feeling of the Kul from case to plate.  I'm leaning more towards the Realforce because i've read it shares that solid board feeling.  If I find out the 55g feels easier to keystroke than mx blacks then i'll probably be ordering within a week or so.

The KUL ES-87 is one of the most well thought-out keyboards I've ever used, if not the most. The build quality and execution is also right up there.

I'm not sure I'd say the 55g is much lighter than MX Black.

Love the KUL. Although I love my 55g 87U as well, I think the KUL has even better build quality.

The build quality of the KUL is absolutely top-shelf. It's a shame about the ping, but otherwise it's a very solid keyboard with a thick case plastic and tons of well thought-out features; little details like having multiple rubber pads on the bottom for using the various angles.

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

[Altis]

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

Just as well. It sounds very much like the old crowbar sound from Half Life. *tong* kind of sound.

[iLLucionist]

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

Just as well. It sounds very much like the old crowbar sound from Half Life. *tong* kind of sound.

I may be wrong, but I believe what people refer to as ping is often the sound of the heavy springs in the Clears. Or IS that actually ping?

[Altis]

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

Just as well. It sounds very much like the old crowbar sound from Half Life. *tong* kind of sound.

I may be wrong, but I believe what people refer to as ping is often the sound of the heavy springs in the Clears. Or IS that actually ping?

It is ultimately the springs resonating that makes the "ping" noise. When the upstroke reaches the hard end, it makes the spring ping.

[iLLucionist]

Still I'm wondering what's up with that ping. I read about it here but I have not come across it myself or I just don't notice it..

Just as well. It sounds very much like the old crowbar sound from Half Life. *tong* kind of sound.

I may be wrong, but I believe what people refer to as ping is often the sound of the heavy springs in the Clears. Or IS that actually ping?

It is ultimately the springs resonating that makes the "ping" noise. When the upstroke reaches the hard end, it makes the spring ping.

Thanks for the explanation! I actually like that noise. It makes me remind I'm typing on a real mech keyboard. Recently, I tried my original Apple Macintosh (well, 512K SE) with that keyboard. And it also had ping but I like it. It gives the keyboard some character. But I can image people finding it highly annoying.

[the_marsbar]

Great read - thanks. I might have to invest in a Realforce at some point.

[HeeCh2ei]

Also FC660C is another alternative. 60%, has dedicated arrows, and home/end etc. are easier to reach.

But the QC on the white and black ones I've had has been sub par, with the bottoms both being slightly torqued, making them wobble with and without the feet down. I heard this was common though, probably part of the reason Brian at EK stopped selling them honestly.

It's the plate twist. I have 660C with this issue. But I'll twisted it in an opposite direction and now it don't wobble at all.

[losing_ctrl]

Also FC660C is another alternative. 60%, has dedicated arrows, and home/end etc. are easier to reach.

But the QC on the white and black ones I've had has been sub par, with the bottoms both being slightly torqued, making them wobble with and without the feet down. I heard this was common though, probably part of the reason Brian at EK stopped selling them honestly.

It's the plate twist. I have 660C with this issue. But I'll twisted it in an opposite direction and now it don't wobble at all.

My RealForce 87U came with plate twist as well. I gently yet firmly twisted it back such that it now sits perfectly flat.

[OperationT]

Woah, that keyboard collection. I just bought a black RealForce 87U 55g in white/grey caps on its way.

You mentioned that if you had to pick one keyboard out of your arsenal, you would pick the RF 87U 45g. Do you prefer the 45g over the 55g because the 45g is in TKL, or is it the feel/sound?

BTW, those two sister boards are beautiful. The white one looks friendly and dependable, while the black one looks mysterious, powerful, yet aloof. I really like how you put the colors together, and it even helps navigate through a blank keyboard. 5 tones - who would've thought of that - brilliant idea. I like them so much I saved the photo. I can see the red plate peeping from underneath the black one. Is it foam I see you have stuffed between the plate and PCB? How much does that help? Are these keycaps in OEM profile (as opposed to cherry)? Where'd you get them?

[jsto69]

Great review, interesting opinion. I've really been on the hunt for an HHKB pro 2 mainly because I like the layout and form factor, as well as it's relatively steep "elevation", for lack of a better term? I'm a bit new to the scene so I don't what to call that part of the design of a keyboard. Either way, this thread has definitely made me look closer into the realforce 87U despite much more preferring the form factor and layout of the Pro 2. Are there any other Topre boards that come close to mimicking the pro2 design at all?

[Altis]

Woah, that keyboard collection. I just bought a black RealForce 87U 55g in white/grey caps on its way.

You mentioned that if you had to pick one keyboard out of your arsenal, you would pick the RF 87U 45g. Do you prefer the 45g over the 55g because the 45g is in TKL, or is it the feel/sound?

BTW, those two sister boards are beautiful. The white one looks friendly and dependable, while the black one looks mysterious, powerful, yet aloof. I really like how you put the colors together, and it even helps navigate through a blank keyboard. 5 tones - who would've thought of that - brilliant idea. I like them so much I saved the photo. I can see the red plate peeping from underneath the black one. Is it foam I see you have stuffed between the plate and PCB? How much does that help? Are these keycaps in OEM profile (as opposed to cherry)? Where'd you get them?

Forgive the late reply. Both my 45g and 55g Realforce 87U are TKL (the 87U model is 87 keys). I just find that with my hands/fingers/wrists, I fatigue of the 55g more quickly and sometimes it causes me to miss a key since I didn't press hard enough.

Thanks for the kind words! It is indeed foam material inside the casing. I do it to most of my keyboards as I find it cuts down on the hollow sounds that you can get... makes them sound more tight. It makes enough of a difference and is more appreciated if you're already typing with the keyboard on a soft surface (desk mat, towel). You can get rolls of the stuff at the dollar store and try it out and see if you like it.

The keycaps are all Cherry profile. I don't really have a preference for one over the other... Cherry perhaps looks a bit better, IMO, but I was more concerned with the texture, sound, and appearance. I got all my blanks from Massdrop.

Great review, interesting opinion. I've really been on the hunt for an HHKB pro 2 mainly because I like the layout and form factor, as well as it's relatively steep "elevation", for lack of a better term? I'm a bit new to the scene so I don't what to call that part of the design of a keyboard. Either way, this thread has definitely made me look closer into the realforce 87U despite much more preferring the form factor and layout of the Pro 2. Are there any other Topre boards that come close to mimicking the pro2 design at all?

I'm not aware of any other Topre keyboards with the HHKB layout. If you prefer the layout of the HHKB2, I'd recommend just getting that. I actually use my HHKB quite a bit these days... It's an interesting keyboard to use. I wouldn't say it's objectively better... but subjectively... you may like it more.

Of course... you could get one of each and enjoy the best of both worlds. 

[Ashlyn]

I like Realforce 45g better , Layout is more better for me 

[Altis]

I like Realforce 45g better , Layout is more better for me 

Yeah if you use the cluster a lot, it can be more practical to have the standard layout.

The FC660C meets them halfway with a bit more standard of a layout.

Leopold is also coming out with the FC980C which will have the classic G80-1800 layout.

The tricky part is they also all feel and sound a bit different and each have a slightly different weight despite all being rated at 45g.

[itbesandrodoe]

Hmmm, I just recieved my HHKB today and I was interested in a Realforce before I bought this, Maybe I should have read your review before. 

[Altis]

Hmmm, I just recieved my HHKB today and I was interested in a Realforce before I bought this, Maybe I should have read your review before. 

I suppose it really depends on just what you want. My word is hardly the gospel... I'm one of the rare folks that prefers the 45g Realforce instead of 55g.

I still have two HHKB and two 87U. I do maintain that I'd keep the Realforce 87U 45g uniform above all my other keyboards if I was only allowed to keep one.... but I really do enjoy using the HHKB still.

It's one of those things that isn't necessarily better, but you just like it anyways.

But just to be safe, better get a Realforce too. 

[captaineleven]

LOL the gf said I'm free to buy a realforce next month for my birthday but I'm leaning towards the 45g because of my dainty baby hands can't handle any more than some 40-50g. I have an fc660c and love the weight on that but know for a fact I can't get any heavier than that or my fingers will start fatiguing. When I looked up info on topre weights, I can't seem to get a consensus on how it is because people are saying it's vastly different from mx switches.

In any case, do they sell 45g in the white color scheme because I have a dark wood desk and wanna have the white for aesthetic purposes? In your collection, you have the white casing with black caps so I wasn't sure if there was more modding involved in that one. I'm offloading my hhkb but I don't love it as much as I do the fc660c probably to the plate so I figured I might as well trade one expensive board for another lol

[Altis]

LOL the gf said I'm free to buy a realforce next month for my birthday but I'm leaning towards the 45g because of my dainty baby hands can't handle any more than some 40-50g. I have an fc660c and love the weight on that but know for a fact I can't get any heavier than that or my fingers will start fatiguing. When I looked up info on topre weights, I can't seem to get a consensus on how it is because people are saying it's vastly different from mx switches.

In any case, do they sell 45g in the white color scheme because I have a dark wood desk and wanna have the white for aesthetic purposes? In your collection, you have the white casing with black caps so I wasn't sure if there was more modding involved in that one. I'm offloading my hhkb but I don't love it as much as I do the fc660c probably to the plate so I figured I might as well trade one expensive board for another lol

I think the 45g uniform 87U is the "elite keyboards" edition that comes only in black. I have two 87Us, one in black and one in white (55g) and swapped the cases.

I find the 55g 87U to be fatiguing eventually and I end up missing keystrokes because I didn't press hard enough. I can certainly see why so many people prefer it, but it's just not for me, really.

I really want to give the FC660C a try sometime.

[captaineleven]

I think the 45g uniform 87U is the "elite keyboards" edition that comes only in black. I have two 87Us, one in black and one in white (55g) and swapped the cases.

I find the 55g 87U to be fatiguing eventually and I end up missing keystrokes because I didn't press hard enough. I can certainly see why so many people prefer it, but it's just not for me, really.

I really want to give the FC660C a try sometime.

I think you'll like the fc660c. It's one of the more enjoyable keyboards that I have, from the form factor to the sound and typing experience. I always go back to it.

And too bad about the ek edition. Really wanted it in the white.

Have you tried the variable edition? I'm curious about it but not sure if I wanna take the plunge on it. It seems to be a polarizing subject lol

[Altis]

I think the 45g uniform 87U is the "elite keyboards" edition that comes only in black. I have two 87Us, one in black and one in white (55g) and swapped the cases.

I find the 55g 87U to be fatiguing eventually and I end up missing keystrokes because I didn't press hard enough. I can certainly see why so many people prefer it, but it's just not for me, really.

I really want to give the FC660C a try sometime.

I think you'll like the fc660c. It's one of the more enjoyable keyboards that I have, from the form factor to the sound and typing experience. I always go back to it.

And too bad about the ek edition. Really wanted it in the white.

Have you tried the variable edition? I'm curious about it but not sure if I wanna take the plunge on it. It seems to be a polarizing subject lol

I haven't tried it but I actually suspect it's not bad. If you look at the weight map, the alphas are almost all 45g, with 30g for the 1QAZ column on the left and the 9OL. column on the right and over (but not the delete/return/shift column). Only the Escape key is 55g.

It does make quite a bit of sense depending on how you type.

One thing is that the black keycaps sound a bit different than the white ones. I personally prefer the sound although I prefer the look of the light keycaps more.

You could probably buy just the white/grey keycaps afterwards on eBay. It'd be more difficult to get the white case. Someone might want to trade.

[mushman]

On Rededit someone pointed out that a recent batch of FC660's have defects where the number row is registering at 30g. 

[Darkside]

I really enjoy the HHKB more.

[Altis]

I really enjoy the HHKB more.

In some ways, I do too. 

[booby_poor_boy]

I think the 45g uniform 87U is the "elite keyboards" edition that comes only in black. I have two 87Us, one in black and one in white (55g) and swapped the cases.

I find the 55g 87U to be fatiguing eventually and I end up missing keystrokes because I didn't press hard enough. I can certainly see why so many people prefer it, but it's just not for me, really.

I really want to give the FC660C a try sometime.

I think you'll like the fc660c. It's one of the more enjoyable keyboards that I have, from the form factor to the sound and typing experience. I always go back to it.

And too bad about the ek edition. Really wanted it in the white.

Have you tried the variable edition? I'm curious about it but not sure if I wanna take the plunge on it. It seems to be a polarizing subject lol

I haven't tried it but I actually suspect it's not bad. If you look at the weight map, the alphas are almost all 45g, with 30g for the 1QAZ column on the left and the 9OL. column on the right and over (but not the delete/return/shift column). Only the Escape key is 55g.

It does make quite a bit of sense depending on how you type.

One thing is that the black keycaps sound a bit different than the white ones. I personally prefer the sound although I prefer the look of the light keycaps more.

You could probably buy just the white/grey keycaps afterwards on eBay. It'd be more difficult to get the white case. Someone might want to trade.

How much of a difference is the sound between the White and black realforce keys?

I was thinking about getting a white set for my black 87u

[happylacquer]

Thank you for your comparison review bro! Wow, i have never seen such an in depth explanation of these two Topre boards. I was looking to pick up either a hhkb pro 2 or a realforce. Guess i will have to consider more than just layout? =)

[rabbitfire]

I'm thinking about buying either HHKB or Realforce to experience torpe switch. Thank you for your detailed review!

[hanoipho]

Thanks for your review! It helps alot 

[Altis]

How much of a difference is the sound between the White and black realforce keys?

I was thinking about getting a white set for my black 87u

Forgive the late reply...

It isn't a massive difference but I noticed it straight away. On bother my HHKB and 87U, the black sets make a bit more of a clicky sound on the upstroke whereas the white/grey keys make a more muted but slightly more clacky sound.

I much prefer the look of the light keycaps, but the sound of the black ones. Another thing is that they have a slightly difference textured feel on the top of the caps, with the light ones feeling a bit smoother/glossier while the black ones feel a bit more gritty (which I like).

Keep in mind we're talking about some pretty minor differences, so you may find the difference to be negligible entirely.

Thanks for your review! It helps alot 

I'm thinking about buying either HHKB or Realforce to experience torpe switch. Thank you for your detailed review!

Thank you for your comparison review bro! Wow, i have never seen such an in depth explanation of these two Topre boards. I was looking to pick up either a hhkb pro 2 or a realforce. Guess i will have to consider more than just layout? =)

Glad I could help!  What keyboards did you guys end up choosing?

(The correct answer is all of them, btw) 

[mousouchop]

Very informative thread, though I was only interested in be HHKB critiques. I saw some negative comments from at least one programmer, and a couple of people mention difficulties with Home/End, as well as luke warm feelings about the layer 2 arrow cluster. Seems more and more the HHKB might not be cut out for my programming needs (which I suspected due to the keys mentioned above...). I suppose I could get the JP version and get that Hasu controller board and remap to a US-like layout, but that might be more hassle than it's worth; it could also be a lot of (nerdy) fun too. hah

I guess I still have some thinking to do. Too bad there's no where I can think of that would carry these for me to try. The only electronics places near me are Best Buy.

[the_marsbar]

If you need a portable keyboard, the HHKB Pro 2 is the one to go for. It's much lighter than the Realforce, and I'm not sure the RF would even fit on the 13" MBA (I'm almost certain it won't).

Also, it seems like some people prefer the 55g version of the Realforce. It's not available in a silenced version (you mentioned in the other thread that you sometimes work during the evening at home).

I'd say I use the arrow keys and the PgUp/PgDn keys quite a lot, but not the Home/End keys that much. The arrow cluster was extremely easy for me to get used to (I even remapped my Novatouch in a similar way).

You could always buy a HHKB Pro 2, and sell it if you don't like it. It seems like they're easy enough to sell.

[Altis]

Very informative thread, though I was only interested in be HHKB critiques. I saw some negative comments from at least one programmer, and a couple of people mention difficulties with Home/End, as well as luke warm feelings about the layer 2 arrow cluster. Seems more and more the HHKB might not be cut out for my programming needs (which I suspected due to the keys mentioned above...). I suppose I could get the JP version and get that Hasu controller board and remap to a US-like layout, but that might be more hassle than it's worth; it could also be a lot of (nerdy) fun too. hah

I guess I still have some thinking to do. Too bad there's no where I can think of that would carry these for me to try. The only electronics places near me are Best Buy.

The Home/End is the trickiest part for me, especially on my black HHKB since I can't see the legends. The keys are far enough away from the Fn key that it's a bit of a stretch and they're tricky to accurately find quickly.

The arrow cluster actually is fine and I got used to it rather quickly.

There are a few things I would change in the layout if I could. Having right-UI (diamond key right of spacebar) to enable a new function layer with Home/End PageUp/PageDown over the existing arrows would probably be easier since it's the same 4 keys, just use a different function key depending on nav or arrows.

If you need a portable keyboard, the HHKB Pro 2 is the one to go for. It's much lighter than the Realforce, and I'm not sure the RF would even fit on the 13" MBA (I'm almost certain it won't).

Also, it seems like some people prefer the 55g version of the Realforce. It's not available in a silenced version (you mentioned in the other thread that you sometimes work during the evening at home).

I'd say I use the arrow keys and the PgUp/PgDn keys quite a lot, but not the Home/End keys that much. The arrow cluster was extremely easy for me to get used to (I even remapped my Novatouch in a similar way).

You could always buy a HHKB Pro 2, and sell it if you don't like it. It seems like they're easy enough to sell.

I certainly agree that the HHKB is the one to get for a portable keyboard. They even sell a specialized carrying case for it. The lack of plate makes it very light and the footprint is about as small as it gets. It's just a bit thick still.

[mousouchop]

@the_marsbar: hah. Did I mention pairing this with a 13" MBA in this thread? Either way, spot on with that comment. I would be looking to travel with this board and use with my MBA. I think I spoke with someone in another thread that overlays their HHKB on a MBP.

@Altis: Using Mac laptop's keyboard exclusively, I've become accustomed to using Cmd+L/R Arrow for Home/End. Looking at HHKB this command seems like it would be a somewhat cumbersome 3-key chord.

[the_marsbar]

Nope, you mentioned it in my thread. I was also the one who mentioned that the HHKB fits perfectly on top of the keyboard of a MacBook.

Cmd + L/R is not much different to Fn + K/, IMO (see photo of layout here: https://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/doc/hhkbp2_basic_layout1500.png).

Anyway, I think it comes down to whether you need a portable keyboard (HHKB is the way to go), or whether you want a keyboard with a "standard" layout (the RF would be the one to choose). I never tried a 60% keyboard without dedicated arrow keys before buying the HHKB, but I had no issues adjusting to the layout.