Author Topic: Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears  (Read 201241 times)

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Offline keyboardlover

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« on: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:11:20 »
[H=2]NEW[/H]
Have you tried Ergo Clears, Panda Clears or some other Clear mod? Be sure to vote here!

Also, please see the mod explained in more detail on my website.

[H=2]Overview[/H]
Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears are my favorite switch. The name originated when mtl added it to the Cherry MX wiki. Basically to get an "Ergo" Clear, you need a Cherry MX clear switch.

Then you need to pop off the top of the switch housing (de-solder first if need be) and replace the cherry clear spring inside which looks like this:

With the spring from a Cherry MX blue, red or brown switch (these are all the same spring):

On a PCB-mounted switch keyboard, this mod is very easy to accomplish. On plate-mounted, it will be more difficult because you will need to de-solder all the switches from the plate and then solder the modded switches back in.

[H=2]Feel[/H]
The feel of these switches is basically like a cherry brown with a much more noticeable tactile bump. If you like browns or even Topres but feel like you need more tactility, this may be the perfect switch for you.

[H=2]For more information[/H]
Please see the "Mods" section of the Cherry MX wiki.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:24:57 by keyboardlover »

Offline Mr. Perfect

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:17:19 »
Uh oh, we've got multiple versions of this Ergo Clear floating around now. The first one I saw was Harrison's, which uses Clear stems and Black springs. Now we've got Really Ergo Clears, with the Red/Blue/Brown spring in them.
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Offline keyboardlover

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:22:07 »
Quote from: ripster;332273
Nice overview.

But btw I didn't use the term or discover this. I first saw it in the Cherry Wiki when Mtl added it.


Thanks, I updated the Mod article with that info.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:27:14 by keyboardlover »

Offline Mr. Perfect

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 16 April 2011, 14:24:21 »
Oh yeah, mtl then. I was following a link in Harrison's unicorn board thread, but didn't bother to read who wrote that article. :doh:
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Offline Cata1yst

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 18 April 2011, 00:30:56 »
Quote from: Mr. Perfect;332271
Uh oh, we've got multiple versions of this Ergo Clear floating around now. The first one I saw was Harrison's, which uses Clear stems and Black springs. Now we've got Really Ergo Clears, with the Red/Blue/Brown spring in them.

 
This.

Wasnt the latter noted by ripster as identical almost to cherry browns? And it was the Clear stem on black springs that were the browns with a bit more of a tactile bump?

Offline Zet

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 05 June 2011, 08:36:35 »
First off, nice mod man :)
Second, I didn't that Clear switches had another spring and that Red/Brown/Blue had the  same spring... I thought Reds and Browns had a much lighter spring(perhaps not the same) than Blues, and that another thing that 'determined' the force required for the switch to act, was the spring...

Great thing to know now thanks!

Offline sordna

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 00:30:28 »
So, how do ergo clears compare to blues? Aside from the sound and hysteresis of the blues, how do they compare in feel ?
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 00:36:30 »
Quote from: sordna;372885
So, how do ergo clears compare to blues? Aside from the sound and hysteresis of the blues, how do they compare in feel ?

 
They are very close, but they miss that perceivable two stroke action. Plain clears instead feels more like stiffer browns, because the increased tactility is somewhat masked by the stiffer spring.
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Offline sordna

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 00:48:50 »
Quote from: The Solutor;372888
They are very close, but they miss that perceivable two stroke action.

Is that a good or bad thing? I wish someone could devise a force graph of the ergo (modded) clears. It would help compare their feel to the blues.

Maybe you can draw lines for the ergo clears on top of one of these graphs to show the differences ? As The Solutor, I believe you are capable of this !




Above images are courtesy of the Cherry wiki of course.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 01:02:39 by sordna »
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 01:24:04 »
Quote from: sordna;372892
Is that a good or bad thing?

 

For me is a very good thing. I like the clicky keys, but I always felt the blues as something fake, something meant to mimic the BS behavior in a tricky way.

Is matter of milliseconds but you can feel a lag from the tactile point and the click/electrical actuation this is missing on ergo clears, as is missed most of the hysteresis, btw this means also a bit less crispy action, and this can deduced even from the graphs: white curve is more curvy.

Quote
As The Solutor, I believe you are capable of this !



Shouldn't "solutor" be a meaningless word in English ? :party:

Btw I'll try, but obviously the graph will be something  "simulated" not really tested....
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 01:50:04 »
Quote from: The Solutor;372913
Shouldn't "solutor" be a meaningless word in English ? :party:.

Yes, but the avatar fills in the blanks!
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #11 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 02:00:55 »
Quote from: input nirvana;372927
Yes, but the avatar fills in the blanks!

 
BTW the idea was to have a purposely misspelled word for "The Solver", and altough I think solutor is correct in some nordic languages, the idea was not that bad, if uou search for "the solver" you find a lot of things, if you search for "The Solutor" you find just me (and the almost unknown "Saint Solutor").
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 04:44:40 »
Anyway the interpolated graph (not based on instrumental measurements) is ready, take it with a grain of salt but should be close enough to the behavior of the real switch.

« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 09:26:53 by The Solutor »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 11:18:24 »
Quote from: The Solutor;372976
Anyway the interpolated graph (not based on instrumental measurements) is ready, take it with a grain of salt but should be close enough to the behavior of the real switch.

Show Image

 
To clarify, this is for the CLEAR stem with a BROWN/BLUE/RED spring = "ERGO CLEAR".

Not to be confused with the CLEAR stem with BLACK spring = "TACTO CLEAR".
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Offline keyboardlover

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 11:33:24 »
I'm curious to see (and maybe do myself) more research on the "tacto" aka "taco" aka "panda" clears. Unfortunately I don't have any black springs.



Might end up getting a poker with blacks or something and modding it.

Offline sordna

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 11:38:29 »
Thank mr Solutor, very nice! Until someone takes measurements with very expensive instruments, your interpolated graph will serve just fine. Quite useful - true GeekHack stuff !
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #16 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:26:37 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373090
To clarify, this is for the CLEAR stem with a BROWN/BLUE/RED spring = "ERGO CLEAR".

 
I thought the graph's tile was "clear" enough :happy:
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #17 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:27:33 »
Nice work, Solutor.

Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:46:45 »
Quote from: ripster;373097

Several of the Cherry Corp old force curves aren't quite accurate.  Unfortunately I haven't seen an updated Cherry Clear force curve.

 
I agree, for me clear and blacks spring are close enough if not identical. Try to push each other a black and a clear springs using a a screwdriver's stem as pivot (maybe not the correct word, i have 11 English words for the Italian perno) and see what happens.

Btw the only way I had was to be consistent with the other graphs rather than super accurate..
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:47:16 »
Quote from: The Solutor;373162
I thought the graph's tile was "clear" enough :happy:

 
How about a graph for a "Tacto Clear"? Or is that not a desirable switch? I'm re-reading a couple wikis about them now.
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #20 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:47:20 »
@sordna and KL, danke...
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #21 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:49:40 »
Quote from: ripster;373187
I thanked you first you ungrateful slut.

 
Bwahahahahaha

Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:50:05 »
Quote from: ripster;373187
I thanked you first you ungrateful slut.

 
I purposed a bit of brainstorming, better than a thank for a keyboard scientist. :happy:
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #23 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 13:54:54 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373184
How about a graph for a "Tacto Clear"? Or is that not a desirable switch? I'm re-reading a couple wikis about them now.

 
First I think tacto clear is a pointless name.

I purposed tacto black (and people agreed) because tacto = clear stem, black = black spring.

A tacto clear is just a clear, given this metric...

Second I haven't tested one of it but just the springs, and the looks different but act almost the same, if not identical

Third even if the difference is real should be too little to be worth.. IMO getto black (red) and ergo clears are the only worth mods (i tried also glued blues, they are too close to browns).

Maybe the BS lovers may like blue stems + clear or black springs....
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:16:16 by The Solutor »
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Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:33:02 »
Quote from: ripster;373192

American humor sometimes doesn't translate well.

(Attachment Link) 20053[/ATTACH]

 
Odd humor, is better than total lack of humor, often.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #25 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:34:30 »
Quote from: The Solutor;373194
First I think tacto clear is a pointless name.

I purposed tacto black (and people agreed) because tacto = clear stem, black = black spring.

A tacto clear is just a clear, given this metric...

Second I haven't tested one of it but just the springs, and the looks different but act almost the same, if not identical

Third even if the difference is real should be too little to be worth.. IMO getto black (red) and ergo clears are the only worth mods (i tried also glued blues, they are too close to browns).

Maybe the BS lovers may like blue stems + clear or black springs....

 
"tacto clear" name came from the wiki...
"ghetto reds" are a good mod, but if you get real "reds" you don't need the mod...
black springs and clear springs are basically the same in this instance...

[ Guests cannot view attachments ] 20054[/ATTACH]   [ Guests cannot view attachments ] 20055[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:40:05 by input nirvana »
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #26 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 14:40:17 »
So...it sounds like tacto and ergo clears are nearly identical in feel?

Offline The Solutor

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 18:34:15 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373229
"tacto clear" name came from the wiki...

 
I don't know from where the tacto clear name materialized.

We had a discussion about names. I accepted the ergo clear name for beige switches and other people agreed about the tactoblack name, which is good not because was a my idea but because is self explanatory.

Quote
"ghetto reds" are a good mod, but if you get real "reds" you don't need the mod...


Yes but still limited to some brands, still less common than other switches.

Quote
So...it sounds like tacto and ergo clears are nearly identical in feel?


Looks that clears and tactoblacks are near identical in feeling, but really I haven't experimented with real switches, just the springs, so this is  not something that I sell as truth, but just the first results of some early tests...
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 18:37:33 by The Solutor »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #28 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:44:54 »
Listing modded switches....

[ Guests cannot view attachments ] 20064[/ATTACH]

Tacto clear as named in wiki....(this is where I saw it)

[ Guests cannot view attachments ] 20065[/ATTACH]

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:47:49 by input nirvana »
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #29 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:49:49 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373445

Tacto clear as named in wiki....(this is where I saw it)

 

I assume the ripster's memory failed again, I'll wait a word from ripster about this, to see if there is a valid reason I missed, if not I'll correct this.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #30 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:58:20 »
Quote from: The Solutor;373446
I assume the ripster's memory failed again, I'll wait a word from ripster about this, to see if there is a valid reason I missed, if not I'll correct this.

 
WHAT??? I have to unlearn "tacto clear" and re-learn it as "tacto black"??????
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #31 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 19:59:55 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373454
WHAT??? I have to unlearn "tacto clear" and re-learn it as "tacto black"??????

Someone also suggested "panda clears" as an alternative name, IIRC.
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #32 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:00:23 »
Quote from: input nirvana;373454
WHAT??? I have to unlearn "tacto clear" and re-learn it as "tacto black"??????

 
The only place where this name appears is a single entry in wiky so I assume is just a mistake
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #33 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:01:44 »
Quote from: sordna;373456
Someone also suggested "panda clears" as an alternative name, IIRC.

 
Is surely better than tacto clears.

Clears are tactile since they left the cherry factory
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #34 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:08:22 »
I wonder WHO that person was?


Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #35 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:10:21 »
In a month, I want to collect several of all the various Cherry switches so I can feel and compare, including some of the modded switches. A couple people have expressed an interest in the same, or just getting a couple more as part of what I'm getting. I made a note in my sig to PM me. I'd like to collect any info on this by then so I can order/trade/make the switches for myself and anyone else.
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Offline RiGS

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« Reply #36 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:23:22 »
IIRC mtl said that the panda clears felt a lot better than the default clear switches.
Last edited by RiGS; Jan 2011

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #37 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 20:26:02 »
Sounds like they are a bit softer. My curiosity has been piqued.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #38 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 21:06:43 »
Quote from: RiGS;373476
IIRC mtl said that the panda clears felt a lot better than the default clear switches.

 
Let me show what I mean.

On the left a black's spring, on the right a clear one.

There is a difference, but is really tiny.

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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #39 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 21:13:06 »
Fun graphic.

I'll make a couple switches of each. It's worth trying out.
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #40 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 21:17:28 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;373477
Sounds like they are a bit softer. My curiosity has been piqued.

 
Well, ergo clears are even softer than panda clears. So the panda clear would be in-between regular clears and ergo clears.
Probably not worth the mod as much as the ergo clears.
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #41 on: Mon, 04 July 2011, 21:28:34 »
Quote
Fun graphic.


Hehe MacGyver, was an amteur...
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Offline dux

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« Reply #42 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 03:11:22 »
I like everything about the blue mx except that I'm bottoming too often. Do you think ergo clears have the potential to change that? Probably not...

Standard clears are said to be good for not bottoming, but I have them on work and I don't like the non-crispy frictiony action around the pressure point at all. The softer spring probably makes it crispier, but then again also more prone to bottoming.

Offline REVENGE

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 03:16:59 »
Quote from: dux;376006
I like everything about the blue mx except that I'm bottoming too often. Do you think ergo clears have the potential to change that? Probably not...

Standard clears are said to be good for not bottoming, but I have them on work and I don't like the non-crispy frictiony action around the pressure point at all. The softer spring probably makes it crispier, but then again also more prone to bottoming.
Why don't you give Panda Blues a try. Take a Black spring and put it under a Blue stem. Feels pretty good to me.

Speaking of which, Panda Clears are probably what you want if you're trying to avoid bottoming out, but the default Clear feel bothers you.
◕ ‿ ◕

Offline dux

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 04:20:22 »
Quote from: REVENGE;376009
Why don't you give Panda Blues a try. Take a Black spring and put it under a Blue stem. Feels pretty good to me.

Speaking of which, Panda Clears are probably what you want if you're trying to avoid bottoming out, but the default Clear feel bothers you.


Well, since the stiffness of the spring doesn't influence the click mechanism of the blues, I thought they would maybe partly lose their clicky feel due to the black spring. Ok, that looks like a contradiction, but what I mean is: higher force + same click = less clicky feel + same click sound

But yes, it could be interesting for non bottoming. I think I'll try them.

Why do you think Panda Clears would be better than standard clears against bottoming? I would say: less force + same click mechanism = more bottoming.

Offline REVENGE

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« Reply #45 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 04:38:40 »
Quote from: dux;376027
Well, since the stiffness of the spring doesn't influence the click mechanism of the blues, I thought they would maybe partly lose their clicky feel due to the black spring. Ok, that looks like a contradiction, but what I mean is: higher force + same click = less clicky feel + same click sound

But yes, it could be interesting for non bottoming. I think I'll try them.

Why do you think Panda Clears would be better than standard clears against bottoming? I would say: less force + same click mechanism = more bottoming.

Regarding the Panda Blues, I feel like Cherry Greens are even more tactile than your average Blue, and as far as I'm aware, they're a Blue stem with a super heavy spring.

Regarding the Panda Clears, I was implying that they would resist bottoming out like a standard Clear, but also feel nicer due to the Black spring.
◕ ‿ ◕

Offline dux

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« Reply #46 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 05:05:01 »
Quote from: REVENGE;376032

Regarding the Panda Clears, I was implying that they would resist bottoming out like a standard Clear, but also feel nicer due to the Black spring.


cool, thanx. Now I really am into Panda Blues.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #47 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 07:02:06 »
Quote
Well, since the stiffness of the spring doesn't influence the click mechanism of the blues, I thought they would maybe partly lose their clicky feel due to the black spring. Ok, that looks like a contradiction, but what I mean is: higher force + same click = less clicky feel + same click sound


Unlike plain clear and tactoblack, both light blues and dark blues will retain most of the tactility and klickness.

P.S. Please stop calling switches with misleading names.  While panda clears could be a valid alternative to tactoblacks, what a panda blue is supposed to be ? white and blue or black and blue ?
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #48 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 07:49:28 »
Panda clears is an awesome name.



Maybe if this key is in group buy 4 I can get it on my board by 2052!

Offline REVENGE

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« Reply #49 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 07:56:03 »
Quote from: The Solutor;376069
black and blue ?
Cherry Bruise?
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 July 2011, 08:00:07 by REVENGE »
◕ ‿ ◕

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #50 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 08:07:00 »
hahaha
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #51 on: Fri, 08 July 2011, 08:10:20 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;376087
Panda clears is an awesome name.


 
Tactoblacks...:painkiller:

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Offline RickyJ

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« Reply #52 on: Sun, 24 July 2011, 15:26:24 »
Just finished swapping clear stems into my keypad (had blues).  Cleaned off the tactile bumps before adding a tiny dab of white lithium grease to each leg.  With the lighter spring it really feels like the keys want to get stuck on the way back up, but it also feels like that eases up with use (in the last 5 minutes anyways).  I'll give it more time before I form my opinion, but initial impressions weren't great.
Currently GMMK Pro: lubed 68g U4T, FR4 plate, extra gaskets, etc

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #53 on: Sun, 24 July 2011, 15:40:48 »
Quote from: RickyJ;386321
I'll give it more time before I form my opinion


If the switches are brand new, you should wait one or two week depending (on the keyboard usage) to give a little burn in to the stems.

It's also statistically normal that a couple of stems over 100 are too tactile or even prone to stick, in that case just replace them
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Offline RickyJ

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« Reply #54 on: Mon, 25 July 2011, 00:25:37 »
The stems are from a G80 POS board that was in quite good condition, I didn't notice any inconsistent switches during the 1.5 months I used the board.  It's not that the switches stick down at all, they just feel like they want to rest in the tactile valley instead of bouncing right back up like my browns.  They feel chunky even when pressing keys quickly. :/
Currently GMMK Pro: lubed 68g U4T, FR4 plate, extra gaskets, etc

Offline wompwomp

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #55 on: Sun, 31 July 2011, 20:17:16 »
Wait a minute, what's wrong with the stock springs?

Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #56 on: Mon, 01 August 2011, 09:33:19 »
So ... let me see if I have got this right:
1. Original Cherry Clear springs are stiffer than Cherry Black springs?
2. Cherry Clear stem + Cherry Black spring = Panda Clear switch.

A Panda Clear switch is softer how?
1. Is the initial resistance changed?
2. Is the tactile feel changed?
3. Is the landing after actuation softer?

Not too long ago, I was almost about to buy a keyboard with Panda Clears but the seller told me that the switches were stiffer than original Clears. How can they be?
I can imagine that the tactile bump would feel like it is larger in relation to the spring's stiffness.. but that is all.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #57 on: Mon, 01 August 2011, 10:09:26 »
The seller was BSing you. IMHO, panda clears feel much like a tactile black. Not my cup of tea but they're pretty nice.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #58 on: Mon, 01 August 2011, 11:24:49 »
Quote from: dux;376027


Why do you think Panda Clears would be better than standard clears against bottoming?


Panda clears, like panda blue doesn't exist so hardly they bottom out.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #59 on: Mon, 01 August 2011, 12:07:35 »
Quote from: ripster;390949
What isn't a Panda Clear?

Fixed for you.

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« Reply #60 on: Mon, 01 August 2011, 13:30:48 »
Tacto black is very descriptive but doesn't make much sense since its a clear stem. Panda clear is simply another title I came up with for the same switch (clear stem + black spring).

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #61 on: Mon, 01 August 2011, 13:37:33 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;391042
Tacto black is very descriptive but doesn't make much sense since its a clear stem. Panda clear is simply another title I came up with for the same switch (clear stem + black spring).


The panda itself is a white animal with black patches or a black one with white patches ?

Same problem here, a panda clear could be a black stem with the clear spring or viceversa...
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #62 on: Mon, 01 August 2011, 13:44:37 »
Quote from: ripster;391051
It's also endangered and has difficulty with reproduction.

Yeah, I tried a panda clear the the autorepeat function stopped working :D
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Offline greyhounds

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #63 on: Sat, 27 August 2011, 13:14:10 »
The spring rate of the clear spring is higher than that of the black spring. They provide the same amount of force at 2mm travel. Due to the spring rate difference, the clear spring requires lower force below 2mm and higher force above 2mm than the black spring does.

If you are looking to minimize the amount of work required to trigger the switch, but maximize the resistance of the spring before the bottoming out point (to reduce bottoming impact), the clear spring would be a good choice.

I've got curves plotted on my machine at work for each spring on a black stem (and forpretty much any other combination you can think of), and it shows the difference between the two springs very clearly. I'll try to remember to post that here Monday.

Offline greyhounds

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« Reply #64 on: Sun, 28 August 2011, 13:32:23 »
That's something I hadn't considered.

I can use a Ripometer, dial indicator, and some clear springs to determine the exact spring rate of the clear springs. That'll get us alot closer to a true profile for the clear switches. At least we'll know exactly what happens above 2mm travel.

I'll also try to plot a few points on the cam of the Clear switch as well to verify it (ie, <2mm travel). It may be that I just need to take the published Clear switch curve, subtract out the spring they claimed it to have, and substitute in the actual spring values based on my tests.

All my junk is at work though so it'll have to be next week some time.

Offline greyhounds

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« Reply #65 on: Mon, 29 August 2011, 12:51:38 »
Here's the plot of a standard black switch compared to a black stem with clear spring. This is based on the published curve data though, so I'll revise this once I've tested the clear spring. Hope this comes out OK as I haven't tried to upload files/pics before.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ] 25285[/ATTACH]

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #66 on: Mon, 29 August 2011, 13:36:48 »
Quote from: greyhounds;406940
Here's the plot of a standard black switch compared to a black stem with clear spring. This is based on the published curve data though, so I'll revise this once I've tested the clear spring. Hope this comes out OK as I haven't tried to upload files/pics before.

(Attachment Link) 25285[/ATTACH]


Makes sense
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Offline greyhounds

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« Reply #67 on: Thu, 01 September 2011, 12:58:30 »
Ripster, you were right. The clear springs are much closer to the published black spring chart then they are to the clear spring chart.

The force measurements I just took from the clear springs are:
4.2mm = 85g
2.8mm = 71g

Both of these are taken beyond 2mm travel, so just the spring is in play regardless of the stem (well, except maybe blues, but I had browns here). If you compare these to the black chart, you can see they are almost dead on. Crazy.

So for all practical purposes it looks like clear springs are functionally the same as black springs. That's sad though - I'd really like something with a faster rate like the clear spring is supposed to have had.

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #68 on: Thu, 01 September 2011, 14:45:25 »
Quote from: RickyJ;386594
The stems are from a G80 POS board that was in quite good condition, I didn't notice any inconsistent switches during the 1.5 months I used the board.  It's not that the switches stick down at all, they just feel like they want to rest in the tactile valley instead of bouncing right back up like my browns.  They feel chunky even when pressing keys quickly. :/
it felt this way to me as well since i've been typing on browns for maybe a year? you'll get used to it lol, i actually have one half of my board ergo clears and browns (1 cuz i wanted to see the difference, 2 i stopped midway cuz i wanted to finish another mod), and you can really tell the difference.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #69 on: Thu, 01 September 2011, 14:48:12 »
Quote from: Lanx;408935
it felt this way to me as well since i've been typing on browns for maybe a year? you'll get used to it lol, i actually have one half of my board ergo clears and browns (1 cuz i wanted to see the difference, 2 i stopped midway cuz i wanted to finish another mod), and you can really tell the difference.

I concur.  Clears with too light of a spring tend to feel "sticky."


Offline domin8r

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #70 on: Sat, 03 September 2011, 13:17:02 »
Converted my old G80-1000 from blacks to panda clears last night.. And I have to say I really, really like it! :D
I got the stems from BiNiaRiS and he had also added the clear springs as a bonus but after trying it for a bit I much prefer the black springs compared to those.
Still willing to try Ergo-clears but for now loving this!

(Not sure if I like this more than blues, will have to try it for a bit I guess)
Compaq MX-11800, Ergo Clear/Brown/Ghetto Red
Ducky 1087XM
Laser SX-25 , White SMK
Black Dell AT101W
IBM Model M 1390120 (\'86)
Cherry G80-1000, Panda Clears

Offline N8N

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« Reply #71 on: Sat, 03 September 2011, 13:53:00 »
could you describe the difference you feel between the black and clear springs?  I thought they were supposed to be very similar.  I actually have some blacks but I think they're sold, and I have too many other projects going at the moment.
Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry Corp. doubleshot keys - Leopold Tenkeyless Tactile Force with Wyse doubleshots - Silicon Graphics 9500900 - WASD V1 - IBM Model M 52G9658 - Noppoo Choc Pro with Cherry lasered PBT keycaps - Wyse 900866-01 - Cherry G80-8200LPBUS/07 - Dell AT101W - several Cherry G81s (future doubleshot donors) (order of current preference) (dang I have too many keyboards, I really only need two)

Offline domin8r

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« Reply #72 on: Sat, 03 September 2011, 15:41:02 »
Quote from: N8N;410017
could you describe the difference you feel between the black and clear springs?  I thought they were supposed to be very similar.  I actually have some blacks but I think they're sold, and I have too many other projects going at the moment.


Well I visually compared the springs from the black and the clear and they are definitely different!
It's a bit hard to describe but to me the clear stem + clear spring felt heavier/less smooth. That also made it feel less tactile (if that makes sense).

I only tried it with a few switches to compare.. so I haven't fully typed on it, not sure if that would make a difference.
Compaq MX-11800, Ergo Clear/Brown/Ghetto Red
Ducky 1087XM
Laser SX-25 , White SMK
Black Dell AT101W
IBM Model M 1390120 (\'86)
Cherry G80-1000, Panda Clears

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #73 on: Sat, 03 September 2011, 16:06:47 »
Quote from: N8N;410017
could you describe the difference you feel between the black and clear springs?  I thought they were supposed to be very similar.


They are similar but the difference is perceptible, black spring is stiffer in the first piece of the keystroke, clears are stiffer at the end of the keystroke.
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Offline N8N

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« Reply #74 on: Sat, 03 September 2011, 21:14:44 »
Quote from: The Solutor;410090
They are similar but the difference is perceptible, black spring is stiffer in the first piece of the keystroke, clears are stiffer at the end of the keystroke.

hmm, if that is the case then it's probably not worth it to me to try the experiment, because that is really what i like about the clears, the way they get noticeably stiffer after the tactile point without feeling artificial like the o-rings.  If that makes any sense whatsoever...
Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry Corp. doubleshot keys - Leopold Tenkeyless Tactile Force with Wyse doubleshots - Silicon Graphics 9500900 - WASD V1 - IBM Model M 52G9658 - Noppoo Choc Pro with Cherry lasered PBT keycaps - Wyse 900866-01 - Cherry G80-8200LPBUS/07 - Dell AT101W - several Cherry G81s (future doubleshot donors) (order of current preference) (dang I have too many keyboards, I really only need two)

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #75 on: Sat, 03 September 2011, 21:35:07 »
I didn't find them to feel very similar at all. I found Tacto (Panda) Clears to feel mostly like a black switch with a tactile bump.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #76 on: Sat, 03 September 2011, 21:45:16 »
10g more is a BIG difference in feel.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #77 on: Sat, 03 September 2011, 21:58:05 »
Quote from: ripster;410220
Hmmm... I didn't feel that but The Solutor and I always disagree.  It's remarkable how similar a Tactoclear and a Cherry Clear are.


Tactoblack

BTW

I think this graph posted earlier is pretty close to the truth



the difference can be felt more on cyan switches vs blues + black spring (feel free to found a name for them, night blue, dark blue, inter switches, whatever).

Cyan are pretty nice.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #78 on: Sun, 04 September 2011, 06:36:00 »
Yea - I meant in comparison to an ergo clear (blue/brown/red) spring - not in comparison to a standard clear switch.

Weren't you saying the two felt remarkably similar?

Offline RickyJ

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« Reply #79 on: Sun, 04 September 2011, 13:26:16 »
Just redid this mod using broken-in clear switches instead of brand new blue switches, night-and-day difference.  I'll give it more time, my cheapo Adesso keypad isn't the best demo unit.
Currently GMMK Pro: lubed 68g U4T, FR4 plate, extra gaskets, etc

Offline domin8r

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« Reply #80 on: Fri, 09 September 2011, 09:07:31 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;391042
Tacto black is very descriptive but doesn't make much sense since its a clear stem. Panda clear is simply another title I came up with for the same switch (clear stem + black spring).


For some reason I always think of browns when I see the term tactile.. I wouldn't know I would guess Tacto Black would be black springs with brown stems..
Compaq MX-11800, Ergo Clear/Brown/Ghetto Red
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Offline litster

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« Reply #81 on: Fri, 09 September 2011, 11:19:29 »
I do like the panda clear name, because it gives me a visual cue in my head that it is white and black.  Where as tacto black makes me do 2 conversions in my head: something in this switch is black (spring or stem?), tacto here is ... hum, white, so the black is hum, ah the spring.  I have to go through that thought process every time :-).  

Panda clear works better for me.

Offline litster

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« Reply #82 on: Fri, 09 September 2011, 11:31:47 »
Panda clear sounds girly though.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #83 on: Fri, 09 September 2011, 12:28:33 »
Quote from: domin8r;413260
For some reason I always think of browns when I see the term tactile..


For some the reason when i see the term tactile, I think to anything but the brown switches.

Maybe it's because they are the less tactile thing on the universe ? :confused:
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #84 on: Fri, 09 September 2011, 12:34:35 »
Quote from: ripster;413362
It's because you haven't tried a real linear until you've tried the Cherry Red switch.


Captain obvious, actually I have two linear boards. I was talking about the tactile switch world...
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 September 2011, 15:29:57 by The Solutor »
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #85 on: Tue, 13 September 2011, 15:29:10 »
Quote from: ripster;413368
Are you a Wizard?
(Attachment Link) 26210[/ATTACH]


No, just the humble MacGyver's teacher :becky:
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Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #86 on: Tue, 13 September 2011, 15:42:40 »
Quote from: ripster;415647
I stuck these in the Cherry MX wiki as "Ergo Clears".

I left the Black Spring/Clear Stem mod as "Tacto Clears AND Panda Clears".
.


Tacto BLACK
<
BTW feel free to change your mind about the switch name, btw then I will feel free to call the ergo clears with their logical name, "beige".
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #87 on: Tue, 13 September 2011, 17:02:07 »
Panda clears won. I know this because it's on my website.

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #88 on: Wed, 14 September 2011, 17:52:43 »
modded a whole board to ergo clears, feels good and with the kinesis sound too. well the sound is getting annoying.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #89 on: Wed, 14 September 2011, 17:53:43 »
Nice!!

Offline ishtob

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« Reply #90 on: Fri, 04 November 2011, 20:01:16 »
my modded poker's got ergo clears, and i love it :)

Offline domin8r

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« Reply #91 on: Sat, 05 November 2011, 03:13:53 »
Modded my Compaq MX-11800 to a bit of a mix. Have a all the regular keys modded to ergo clears, the arrow keys to ghetto reds and the rest I left brown (don't care about the tactile feedback of my functions keys and such)

Gotta say the difference between panda clears and ergo clears is really noticeable! I think I prefer the ergo clears.. but the panda clears come in a close second :)
Compaq MX-11800, Ergo Clear/Brown/Ghetto Red
Ducky 1087XM
Laser SX-25 , White SMK
Black Dell AT101W
IBM Model M 1390120 (\'86)
Cherry G80-1000, Panda Clears

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #92 on: Sat, 05 November 2011, 10:14:58 »
Glad you like them! Be sure to vote here.

fossala

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« Reply #93 on: Sat, 05 November 2011, 15:20:07 »
I have been playing with ergo clears on my poker. I like them but I prefer strait clears.

Offline domin8r

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« Reply #94 on: Tue, 08 November 2011, 04:03:17 »
After using my panda clears again for a few days it's still hard to pick the best clear setup.. I love the "bounciness" of panda clears but the ergo clears feel more tactile and light..
Compaq MX-11800, Ergo Clear/Brown/Ghetto Red
Ducky 1087XM
Laser SX-25 , White SMK
Black Dell AT101W
IBM Model M 1390120 (\'86)
Cherry G80-1000, Panda Clears

fossala

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« Reply #95 on: Tue, 08 November 2011, 04:13:00 »
I just found ergos a bit sticky. But I also like a heavier switch.

Offline domin8r

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« Reply #96 on: Tue, 08 November 2011, 04:15:38 »
Quote from: fossala;447900
I just found ergos a bit sticky. But I also like a heavier switch.

I've found that the keycaps make quite a difference too.. the ergos felt a lot better when I fitted heavy cherry keycaps instead of the flimsy default MX11800 keycaps!
Compaq MX-11800, Ergo Clear/Brown/Ghetto Red
Ducky 1087XM
Laser SX-25 , White SMK
Black Dell AT101W
IBM Model M 1390120 (\'86)
Cherry G80-1000, Panda Clears

Offline Roguemaster8

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #97 on: Fri, 13 April 2012, 11:33:28 »
Just got a Poker with ergo clears, these are definitely a superior switch.

Tactile as hell, but not obnoxiously clicky.
CM Storm Quickfire | Dell Quietkey | Unicomp Ultra Classic | KBC Poker

Offline keyboardlover

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Cherry MX "Ergo" Clears
« Reply #98 on: Fri, 13 April 2012, 14:01:02 »
Glad you like 'em! I've been typing on mine for the last couple months now. Love 'em.