Author Topic: Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod  (Read 135980 times)

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Offline HaaTa

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Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
« on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 10:29:51 »
Intro


Before trievalot even sent me my Model F, I wondered if I could fix the annoying issue of the L-Enter button of death/pestilence/annoyance. Its not that I mind the large Enter button, its just that it's taking the spot of '|' and '\' and making the Backspace so damn tiny.

Anyways, so part of my deal with trievalot was that I got a full set of Model M key caps (which is what put this plan into motion).


What you need:

    [*]IBM Model F (I only have an AT to test this on)
    [*]ANSI sized Backspace
    [*]ANSI sized \ | key
    [*]ANSI sized Enter button
    [*]Flat Head Screwdriver
    [*]Needle-nose pliers
    [/LIST]


    Optional: (Highly recommended!)

      [*] 2x Model M style plastic insert key stabilizers
      [/LIST]


      Disassembling


      First, take all the key caps off.



      Next you use the Flat head screwdriver to remove the four screws from the back of the board.
      Now pry the board apart from the side with the cord. You here lots of creaking sounds, that's normal. While prying, unslot the cord from the board.

      Remove the screw holding in the wires and the two screws (to the right and left) holding the board in place.



      There should be two plugs going into the main controller board (the smaller one is for the LEDs, you can ignore it completely), unplug them. Notice how they are somewhat idiot proof, so you'll be able to remember how to plug them in later.

      Now take out the main board assembly.



      Don't worry about the controller board, you can ignore it completely for this mod.

      Next, notice the folded over tab on the top right corner (above picture). Use the needle-nose pliers to unbend the tab enough so that you can take the assembly apart.

      If you take a closer look at how the assembly is put together, you'll notice that it slides into all of the tabs in order to lock it into place. I just used my hands to pull it apart and leveraged the floor a bit. This post has way more details on how to take apart a Model F, if you're still confused.

      Now before removing the top piece, raise the assembly off the ground. I just stacked some empty curry boxes. This is so all the springs don't jump out at you.
      Next, remove the top piece of the assembly.



      Look at all those extra contacts :D. Unfortunately I don't have any extra springs, and switches so I can't put them to use.

      Now locate the spring/switch of the \ | key, remove it and place it where it should be.





      Next you'll notice that there is an insert just beside the Enter key spring/switch; remove it, as it doesn't fit properly with the Model M style keys.



      Mmm, instant (well 6-7 minutes plus however long it takes to cook the rice) curry.


      And we're done!

      Well not really. You still have to put the keyboard back together (which is relatively easy, just follow this).
      You also have to place the new key caps back on...
      Easy nonetheless.


      Optional Part:

      Right before you put the Enter and Backspace back on, insert the spacers.



      They only go in one way, so don't force them in (though they do fit more snugly that the Model F insert stabilizer did, see pic with the curry box background above).

      This part makes a world of a difference to the key feel as the keys don't shake so much.

      I got 4 insert stabilizers from trievalot, 3 of them white, and one grey coloured one. The grey one is for the numpad 0 (as per trievalot).


      Scan Codes


      Next part, scan codes. I use this board in Linux, so that is what this guide will describe. I have no idea how to fix this up in Windows (and am too lazy to figure it out). ripster says its automagically detected in Windows, what ever that means :P.


      Scan Code Background - Safe to skip unless you are having troubles

      At first when I started doing this mod I could not get any scan codes out of the new \ | key. For me, xev gave me nothing. Next I tried showkey (you should run without X running), but still nothing (even using the -a, -s, or -k options).
      But after reading a the man page I discovered that the 2.6 kernels does some keycode magic first before sending the signals to you.
      To turn the magic off add the following option to the the kernel grub line:

      Code: [Select]
      atkbd.softraw=0

      For the clueless, at the grub boot loader, highlight the desired boot, press 'e' then highlight the line that starts with kernel. Now add the option at the end to look something like this (this one is for ArchLinux):

      Code: [Select]
      kernel /vmlinuz26 root=/dev/md0 ro atkbd.softraw=0

      Now press Enter and then 'b' to boot the OS.

      Since the kernel is no longer doing magic to the scan codes you can pick up the scan codes that weren't there before. albeit only with:

      Code: [Select]
      sudo showkey -s

      The -k, -a and xev will still give you nothing.


      Assigning the new \ | key

      On my system the \ | scan code is 0x75. This works even if you have not added the atkbd.softraw=0 option from the previous section.

      To remap the key just issue the following command:

      Code: [Select]
      sudo setkeycodes 75 43

      This sets the scancode 0x75 to signal the keycode 43. Keycode 43 is the keyboard layout identifier the OS has already prepared for \ |.

      You can see a list of the current keycodes with 'xmodmap -pke'. For me I had to guess because I have an odd way of enabling colemak, but 43 should be ok for those using en_US.

      Now you just have to add that command somewhere so it runs on startup. I'll probably use the /etc/rc.local file so it gets loaded before the login.


      Finally, you're done!



      [/SIZE]


      Conclusion


      So far this mod has been working great for me. The only minus would be that the backspace and Enter keys don't have stabilizers. But its not really that big of a deal.
      And I'm sure somebody can figure out a way to fix that (the board has the slots for a Backspace and Enter stabilizer).

      This guide should also work for any of the other unused pads (there are 6 of them, the space bar ones are hard to use mind you). Soarer was nice enough to provide a list of scancodes for the other pads.


      Mod Images
      Extra Dismantling Images
      « Last Edit: Sun, 07 November 2010, 06:26:18 by JBert »
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline salcan

      • Posts: 113
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #1 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 11:03:46 »
      Just me or are all the images broken?

      Offline itlnstln

      • Posts: 7048
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #2 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 11:07:19 »
      It could be your browser or firewall.  They're broken for me, but it's my workplace's firewall.  My firewall-buster can't handle AJAX, so I can't see any of the pics in the "wiki" forums.


      Offline mp29k

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #3 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 12:45:58 »
      "You thought keyboards were expensive. Try putting some rubber domes in your GF." -itlnstln

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #4 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 13:22:27 »
      Quote from: ripster;158843
      Whaddya know - there's  SUPPOSED to be images but Vbulletin has a nasty habit of erasing them if you take too long editing the post.
      And that's why I prepare articles in a text editor before posting...
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

      The storage list:
      IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


      Currently ignored by: nobody?

      Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
      [/SIZE]

      Offline HaaTa

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #5 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 16:16:54 »
      Lol, sorry about that. I was pretty much falling over when I finished the guide, so I didn't test it properly.

      "Should" be fine now.

      Here's the picasa link for the lazy.

      More pictures as well.
      « Last Edit: Wed, 17 February 2010, 16:20:50 by HaaTa »
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline mp29k

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #6 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 17:30:57 »
      Great post now that the pictures work.  I had absolutely no interest in the Model F before this post because of the crappy layout, now I am reading about the tasty feeling of the Model F, and along with this post, now I want one...

      Which one will work with PS2 again?  AT or XT?
      "You thought keyboards were expensive. Try putting some rubber domes in your GF." -itlnstln

      Offline kishy

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #7 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 17:34:20 »
      Quote from: mp29k;158873
      Show Image


      That was a good movie...shame nobody I know is familiar with it.
      Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
      Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
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      Offline mp29k

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #8 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 17:36:29 »
      Quote from: kishy;158944
      That was a good movie...shame nobody I know is familiar with it.


      I watched it once, fully intending to buy it so I could really dig in and understand the nuance of it, but life happened and I never got around to it.  I will have to rent it again, or torrent it off the net to watch it again.
      "You thought keyboards were expensive. Try putting some rubber domes in your GF." -itlnstln

      Offline itlnstln

      • Posts: 7048
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #9 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 18:52:04 »
      Is that from Memento?  Great flick.


      Offline kishy

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #10 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 19:06:51 »
      Quote from: itlnstln;158962
      Is that from Memento?  Great flick.


      Indeed it is.

      Obviously not ALL of it though...

      Fantastic movie.
      Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
      Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
      kishy.ca

      Offline elbowglue

      • Posts: 583
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #11 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 19:54:50 »
      OMG that is an awesome mod.  May I buy the keyboard off of you now?
      My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
      Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

      KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

      Offline HaaTa

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      Re: Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #12 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 20:23:31 »
      Lol, no :P.  Its my coding board.

      It took me longer to do the write up than it did to figure out/complete the mod.
      Best part is is its easily reversable (why you'd want to do that, I don't know).
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline trievalot

      • Posts: 246
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #13 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 21:29:56 »
      This is an awesome looking board.......very very very cool now.
      Best of both worlds with the quality of a Model F and the usability of a modern board.
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline mp29k

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #14 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 21:38:39 »
      Which Model F works with modern PCs?  XT, or AT?
      "You thought keyboards were expensive. Try putting some rubber domes in your GF." -itlnstln

      Offline kishy

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #15 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 21:41:52 »
      Quote from: mp29k;159011
      Which Model F works with modern PCs?  XT, or AT?


      AT.

      The IBM PC and PC/XT used an earlier version of the interface. The IBM PC/AT introduced a new version of interface which was then carried over to PS/2, just using a different connector.

      Converters for XT can be built but it's easier to just find an AT keyboard.
      Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
      Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
      kishy.ca

      Offline trievalot

      • Posts: 246
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #16 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 23:13:53 »
      Ill swap my other AT Model F for a Topre if anyone is interested :P
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #17 on: Thu, 18 February 2010, 12:49:53 »
      Quote from: HaaTa;158995
      Lol, no :P.  Its my coding board.

      It took me longer to do the write up than it did to figure out/complete the mod.
      Best part is is its easily reversable (why you'd want to do that, I don't know).
      Actually, it seems you took a lot of time writing the disassembly, even though that has been explained before. We should make a wiki article about it. :wink:
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

      The storage list:
      IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


      Currently ignored by: nobody?

      Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
      [/SIZE]

      Offline HaaTa

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #18 on: Thu, 18 February 2010, 16:31:39 »
      So It'll be a NIB modded Model F :P
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline trievalot

      • Posts: 246
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #19 on: Fri, 19 February 2010, 02:52:53 »
      Ill buy that for a dollar!
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline msiegel

      • Posts: 1230
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #20 on: Fri, 19 February 2010, 15:14:36 »
      HaaTa, have you noticed any difference in feel between the original Model F keys and the replacement Model M keys?

      ripster had pointed out that the slots in the key stems are different lengths, possibly affecting how a spring buckles...

      Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
      Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #21 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 03:47:24 »
      Quote from: webwit;159320
      I think this mod will be one of the classics. Well done.


      If you (webtwot) think this mod will be "one of the classics" then I'm absolutely convinced it's a bad move.

      The last thing I would consider attempting to do is **** up a perfectly good$500 NIB sealed 84-key PC AT Model F.  Let's see how fast the market value can drop for a pristine sealed vintage board of which there are only a handful that still exist.

      In fact, I wouldn't peform this mod with any of my other used 84-key AT Model Fs either.   I like the large enter key, the Control Key is where God intended it to be, and the small backspace key is something I've become accustomed to.

      Having burned literally thousands of dollars during the past 12 months on virtually every type of key switch, vintage or current production, I've come full circle back to exclusively using my 84-key AT keyboards at the office and at home.  

      Beam spring keyboards aside (I've never seen one or used one) there ain't nothin' better than the IBM buckling spring over capacitive contacts key switch used in the 84-key Model F.  Everything else, Model M's Cherry toys, even the good ones, suck **** in comparison.

      The only mod worth attempting is JBerts space bar force reduction mod.   Done correctly, that makes the 84-key damn near perfect.
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline platon

      • Posts: 59
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #22 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 04:48:23 »
      Quote from: maxlugar;159558
      If you (webtwot) think this mod will be "one of the classics" then I'm absolutely convinced it's a bad move.

      The last thing I would consider attempting to do is **** up a perfectly good$500 NIB sealed 84-key PC AT Model F.  Let's see how fast the market value can drop for a pristine sealed vintage board of which there are only a handful that still exist.

      In fact, I wouldn't peform this mod with any of my other used 84-key AT Model Fs either.   I like the large enter key, the Control Key is where God intended it to be, and the small backspace key is something I've become accustomed to.

      Having burned literally thousands of dollars during the past 12 months on virtually every type of key switch, vintage or current production, I've come full circle back to exclusively using my 84-key AT keyboards at the office and at home.  

      Beam spring keyboards aside (I've never seen one or used one) there ain't nothin' better than the IBM buckling spring over capacitive contacts key switch used in the 84-key Model F.  Everything else, Model M's Cherry toys, even the good ones, suck **** in comparison.

      The only mod worth attempting is JBerts space bar force reduction mod.   Done correctly, that makes the 84-key damn near perfect.

      I agree with webwit. It is a classic mod. Just seeing it motivates me to try something similar to a Chicony 5181 and a Focus 2001.

      I would not touch a NIB $500 Model F either. Apart from that though, the enter - backslash - backspace combo is a matter of personal preference.

      I for example despise the big enter key layout and i bet i'm not the only one.
      « Last Edit: Sat, 20 February 2010, 04:53:27 by platon »
      Filco Majestouch brown no nkro, Filco tenkeyless white lettered with browns, IBM Model M 1392934 Space Saving \'91 x 2, Cherry G80-3000 LSCEU-2, Chicony KB-5181, SGI Granite 9500900, IBM Model M 52G9658 \'94, HHKB Lite 2 for Mac, SGI RT6856T (rubber dome), Logitech Illuminated Keyboard, CH DT225 trackball, SGI 063-0009-001 mouse

      Offline Brian ONeil

      • Posts: 2
      Msg from Brian O'Neil
      « Reply #23 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 05:57:01 »
      I believe a may have a parts unit at my warehouse that I can steal the parts you need off of. Send me an email if you need help. brian28027@gmail.com

      Offline trievalot

      • Posts: 246
      Look what i just did......
      « Reply #24 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 06:00:54 »
      Haata, very easy mod thank you!!!
      Man, once my wife sees this she will be SO impressed :P

      So, who wants to buy it?
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline trievalot

      • Posts: 246
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #25 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 06:11:44 »
      im using the F now.....DAMN this is so much better
      Hey Haata, as for the M guides beiing different, i have a few spare ones i can send you (let me know how many you want) for the extra keys?

      Again, thanks for the very easy guide (and the Filco in the above picture!)
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline ch_123

      • * Exalted Elder
      • Posts: 5860
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #26 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 10:09:57 »
      It is theoretically possible to mod the keyboard to have a standard sized space bar and two Alt keys flanking it. However, you'd have to a) cut out two holes in the plate to make room for the barrels for the extra Alt keys, and b) find some way of holding the stabilizer bar for a Model M space bar.

      Offline HaaTa

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #27 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 11:27:37 »
      Quote from: msiegel;159437
      HaaTa, have you noticed any difference in feel between the original Model F keys and the replacement Model M keys?

      ripster had pointed out that the slots in the key stems are different lengths, possibly affecting how a spring buckles...


      Hmm, if I really test the Model M keys closely, they do feel a bit different. Though what I notice the most is the texture and thickness of the keycaps when typing.

      The sound is also a little bit different (closer to a Model M actually :P).

      Since trievalot has added the extra stabilizers in his board, he would probably have a better answer.
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #28 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 13:38:17 »
      Quote from: webwit;159563
      Oh dear, attack out of nowhere. I can do this, I was twelve once. Let's see. If you (maxloser) have a problem, maybe you should mention it instead of randomly attacking me like a little kid.


      Sorry webwit.  I was a bit impaired last night.  Fri & Sat nights are usually busy but business at the club was very slow which means I lost money which in turn impacts my ability to fund my addiction to buying keyboards.  I had to find a way to lessen the pain  :)   :violin:

      I agree, this really is an awesome mod - maybe the best one ever if it enables more people to experience the joy of using the 84-key AT Model F.

      I know I am in the minority regarding the archaic 84-key layout.  I'm just used to it and have been able to switch betweeen the 84-key, standard 104 key, and HHKB without too much of a problem.

      The new 84-key will remain tucked away in the gun safe and probably passed on to my kids.

      After looking at the steps for the mod, I think I will attempt it on one of my used 84-keys for ****s & grins.  From all the positive responses, this mod will probably increase the market value of a used one...at least within the geekhack community.

      Keep that box in pristine condition ripster!  You should have no problem selling it NIB on ebay after the mod.:heh:
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #29 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 13:57:38 »
      Quote from: ripster;159651
      The club?  


      Um..yes along the same line, but much less classy.  The city of Phoenix will not grant me a liquor license to sell alcoholic beverages...know what I mean?   :)
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #30 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 14:15:28 »
      Quote from: maxlugar;159558
      The only mod worth attempting is JBerts space bar force reduction mod.   Done correctly, that makes the 84-key damn near perfect.
      Ehr, my spacebar mod also violates the warranty. Be warned.
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

      The storage list:
      IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


      Currently ignored by: nobody?

      Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
      [/SIZE]

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #31 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 14:51:47 »
      Quote from: JBert;159658
      Ehr, my spacebar mod also violates the warranty. Be warned.


      Yeah, that 25 year IBM warranty  :)
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline ch_123

      • * Exalted Elder
      • Posts: 5860
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #32 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 15:00:05 »
      My only qualm with this mod is that it's software dependent. It would be nice to somehow hack the controller to have this functionality built in, but that's obviously going to involve a lot of effort.

      Offline trievalot

      • Posts: 246
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #33 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 16:33:50 »
      All keys work fine under windoze, and the backspace key and enter keys did feel a little diffferent until i added the model m donor stabilizer.  they feel different than the keys with metal guides, but the same as the M keys (if that makes sense)
      Im thinking the spacemod is a good idea now, DAMN this thing is heavy.
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline HaaTa

      • Master Kiibohd Hunter
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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #34 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 22:05:24 »
      Subconsciously I've started to use the beast of a spacebar with both thumbs. Takes a little bit of practice though. And I haven't decided whether or not its a good long term solution yet.
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      Offline msiegel

      • Posts: 1230
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #35 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 23:53:19 »
      strong thumbs are good for you...
      just think of all those early '80s secretaries and data entry workers with really strong thumbs :)

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      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #36 on: Sun, 21 February 2010, 00:09:42 »
      You mean like this



      Don't even know why I remembered this. Only walked through the room when my dad was watching it on the tube more than 10 years ago (Even Cowgirls Get The Blues).
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      Offline trievalot

      • Posts: 246
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #37 on: Sun, 21 February 2010, 01:24:37 »
      dont guys prefer chicks with small hands :O
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline InSanCen

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #38 on: Wed, 24 February 2010, 17:53:11 »
      Only if you are challenged... ;-P
      Currently Using :- IBM M13 1996, Black :
      Currently Own :- 1391406 1989 & 1990 : AT Model F 1985 : Boscom 122 (Black) : G80-3000 : G80-1800 (x2) : Wang 724 : G81-8000LPBGB (Card Reader, MY) : Unitek : AT102W : TVS Gold :
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      Offline HaaTa

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      Re: Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #39 on: Wed, 24 February 2010, 18:52:32 »
      Dueling Banjos?

      (Godammit Tapatalk, you won't let me post the obligatory Curse of Monkey Island pic)

      Edit:

      >
      type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344">[/YOUTUBE]

      That's better
      « Last Edit: Thu, 25 February 2010, 06:15:05 by HaaTa »
      Kiibohd

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      Offline HaaTa

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #40 on: Mon, 01 March 2010, 05:17:44 »
      Just got a bunch of Model M plastic insert stabilizers, and updated the mod to use them (i.e. take of the key, place the insert in, put the key back on, done...). Picture as well.

      Definitely recommended, almost night and day for the feeling.


      To demonstrate how bored I was today at work, I partially designed an adjustable electromagnetic levitating platform for my trackball (and arm) while trying to design a floating laser mouse.
      I WAS supposed to investigate this xsane bug, never happened though :P.

      I might build one if I can find the materials before I get disinterested in the idea.
      Kiibohd

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      Offline trievalot

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #41 on: Mon, 01 March 2010, 05:34:04 »
      Glad they got there OK.....the Japan postal system seems better than Australias, but i think so is the north pole - they at least get letters from santa.

      The grey one is from the numpad, the longer 0 key has a slightly different centre by the look of it. Plenty more M spares if you need any! (or anyone else - sorry Kishy!)
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #42 on: Mon, 01 March 2010, 07:18:36 »
      Yeah, post in Japan is amazing. The takkyubin service is even more awesome, I wish Canada had something like it (and as affordable).
      Kiibohd

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      Offline meltie

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #43 on: Tue, 02 March 2010, 10:36:56 »
      Quote from: kishy;158944
      That was a good movie...shame nobody I know is familiar with it.


      I saw it! Great movie.

      Offline nowsharing

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #44 on: Tue, 09 March 2010, 15:19:47 »
      Great discovery and writeup HaaTa.

      I was so fed up with the F's layout that I sold my pristine example a few months ago. I became interested in getting another after reading about your modification, and was lucky to purchase one through the GH classifieds from Skriefel.

      I bought my first AT F for $5 as a bonus from a seller that I was buying another board from. The new one was more expensive at $60, but still a great price when you consider how well built, and rare they are.

      Quote
      Windows will just naturally pick up the scancode. No sudo involved.
      So will we need to make an autohotkey script to remap the new code, or will this not be necessary?

      Again, incredible work perfecting the F, HaaTa.

      Offline HaaTa

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      Re: Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #45 on: Tue, 09 March 2010, 20:17:20 »
      You'll definitely need to use something to remap the key.

      I have another mod I'm working on atm for the Model F. But its softwase based, and may take me a couple of weeks yet. It'll be for linux; however, if I'm successful I'll port it to windows.
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      Offline Half-Saint

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #46 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 05:09:31 »
      How do you guys live with the "small" Enter key? :) I keep missing it on a US keyboard!

      Anyway, I reckon, if you can do the small Enter mod, the reverse could also be done? You know, remove that uglyass US Enter and place a big L Enter in its place! :)
      IBM Model M (6) - Acer Alcatel 6312-KW - IBM Model M Space Saver - IBM Model M 122-key - Cherry G80-3000 (2) - IBM Model F AT - TG3 BL82A (2)

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      Offline ch_123

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #47 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 05:14:33 »
      I find the ANSI/US enter preferable to the ISO enter, and that's coming from someone who learned to type on the UK layout.

      Why? Because the ISO enter is so far over the right that you have to lift your hand to press it. With the ANSI enter it's properly on the home row so you can just hit it with your little finger without much hand movement.

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #48 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 13:55:32 »
      Now a keyboard with a small left shift and a big enter would be nice... Does the right keypad under the left shift produce a working keycode?
      « Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 13:59:50 by JBert »
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      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #49 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 17:37:16 »
      From my crappy pictures of the circuit board, I see no reasons why it shouldn't.

      My next project is to add a bunch of extra keys, pretty much just splitting the shift keys and the numpad keys. I bought an XT not too long ago for this part. Unfortunately I sent it to my home in Canada, so I'll have to wait till the end of June to do it.
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      Offline ch_123

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #50 on: Sat, 17 April 2010, 11:05:01 »
      An excellent mod - it has made the spacebar probably lighter than the rest of the keyboard, making my F more usable for prolonged typing.

      EDIT: Whoops,  wrong Model F mod...
      « Last Edit: Sat, 17 April 2010, 11:22:32 by ch_123 »

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #51 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 00:58:26 »
      Just completed this mod along with the spacebar mod.   Not a difficult mod at all.   Taking the case apart isn't all that difficult, but putting it back together can be a bit tricky.   Be sure to tie down the space bar spring/hammer with dental floss or fishing line before putting the metal back plate onto the frame assembly.  I took it apart and put it together 4x before I went back and read Jbert's post on using fishing line to hold the spring/hammer in place.  I found it easiest to connect the lower part of the assembly first, sliding the metal plate into the slots and then gently closing the assembly together and crimping the metal tabs  (what a terrible method to attach the plate and the frame together) in order to complete the assembly.  

      The |\ key and the right enter work fine.   But the backspace key sounds like it's broken and wiggles around like a belly dancer.   I need to figure out a better means of stabilizing the key.   Anyone have any ideas??  

      Pics with tips, do's/dont's at a later date.  

      skc

      Offline trievalot

      • Posts: 246
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #52 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 01:46:22 »
      you need a M stableiser rod.....
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #53 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 03:32:42 »
      Yeah, worlds better with the stabilizers. Make sure you use one for both the Backspace and the Enter key.
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      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #54 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 06:54:03 »
      Quote from: trievalot;176032
      you need a M stableiser rod.....


      Do you mean the white plastic inserts that drop in on the left side of the keys?  If so, I have those.   One for the backspace and one for the enter.   Or are talking about something else?  

      Meanwhile, I have another problem.  When I hit the 0000 and the ------ I 0occasionally get more than one leter to type.   Uggghhh....it's coming apart again.  

      Taking an AT F apart is a PITA.   Do you think I have the case put together too tightly??   I've reset the keys a bunch of times.  

      skc

      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #55 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 06:57:59 »
      Yup, those white plastic inserts are the ones.

      Lol, I need to take mine apart to reseat the ; and " keys. Usually I just shake the whole board a bunch of times, usually works. But the " key seems to be more stubborn.
      Oh well my MX Red board needed some lov'n anyways.
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      Offline skcheng

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      « Reply #56 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 07:07:10 »
      Quote from: HaaTa;176048
      Yup, those white plastic inserts are the ones.

      Lol, I need to take mine apart to reseat the ; and " keys. Usually I just shake the whole board a bunch of times, usually works. But the " key seems to be more stubborn.
      Oh well my MX Red board needed some lov'n anyways.



      It sure isn't a walk in the park putting this beast together.   Assembly of the Space Savng Mini is a piece of cake compared to the AT F.   I was SOOO careful too.  Now that I feel around some more, I see that the entire top row wiggles more than the rest of the keys.  So maybe I didn't tighten down the top row enough.....

      skc

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #57 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 15:09:58 »
      Quote from: skcheng;176025
      [see wire trick]... I found it easiest to connect the lower part of the assembly first, sliding the metal plate into the slots and then gently closing the assembly together and crimping the metal tabs  (what a terrible method to attach the plate and the frame together) in order to complete the assembly.
      Wait, are you bending all the tabs?!? There are 6 or 8, but only one needs to be bent.

      Check it, most have a special cut like this:
      Code: [Select]
      ____
      |  /
      |  \
      When the last one on the top or bottom row without a notch is bent away from the notch in the backplate, you should be able to slide front- and backplate away until it unlocks from the cuts in the other tabs.

      Better make sure to straighten them again!
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

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      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #58 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 15:26:18 »
      Quote from: JBert;176229
      Wait, are you bending all the tabs?!? There are 6 or 8, but only one needs to be bent.

      Check it, most have a special cut like this:
      Code: [Select]
      ____
      |  /
      |  \
      When the last one on the top or bottom row without a notch is bent away from the notch in the backplate, you should be able to slide front- and backplate away until it unlocks from the cuts in the other tabs.

      Better make sure to straighten them again!



      Mine had the left and the right tabs bent forward to retain the plate, so I simply did the same in reverse when I re-assembled the frame/plate.   But there is no means of knowing how tight/loose everything needs to be on that side of the assembly.  

      Any tips??  Or photos showing what I'm doing wrong??  

      Thx,

      skc

      Offline skcheng

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      « Reply #59 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 15:39:22 »
      Quote from: JBert;176229
      Wait, are you bending all the tabs?!? There are 6 or 8, but only one needs to be bent.

      Check it, most have a special cut like this:
      Code: [Select]
      ____
      |  /
      |  \
      When the last one on the top or bottom row without a notch is bent away from the notch in the backplate, you should be able to slide front- and backplate away until it unlocks from the cuts in the other tabs.

      Better make sure to straighten them again!



      Now you have me thinking that I assembled the plate wrong.  On the bottom there is a row of notched connectors that obviously slide one way until the assembly can't slide anymore.  

      But on the other side, by the PC board, there is no lock/key type connection.  Or is there??   Is there something on that side that snaps or clicks together??   I thought that side was simply held together by the crimped metal tab??  The ones in the center are straight and I didn't touch those.

      skc

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #60 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 16:07:19 »
      It's nearly impossible to assemble it wrong. If you reversed the backplate, you couldn't have mounted the controller board. Should you reverse the frontplate, the F-key rows would be on the right.

      Take a look at an large picture of the back of the assembly from the Model F porn article. The bent tab is at the top right. If you then put the whole assembly upright (with the right edge of the backplate in the picture on your desk), you should be able to push down on the backplate. (Obviously keep them together until you have placed it flat again lest the hammers fall out.)
      Once you got them flat again, lift the top or bottom edge of the backplate a little and you should be able to slide the backplate away from you or towards you, releasing it from the opposite row of tabs.

      Clear enough?
      There are some Youtube videos around of people taking apart model Fs. Since I'm currently using "narrow-band", I can't search for them.
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      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #61 on: Mon, 26 April 2010, 21:30:23 »
      Quote from: JBert;176243
      It's nearly impossible to assemble it wrong. If you reversed the backplate, you couldn't have mounted the controller board. Should you reverse the frontplate, the F-key rows would be on the right.

      Take a look at an large picture of the back of the assembly from the Model F porn article. The bent tab is at the top right. If you then put the whole assembly upright (with the right edge of the backplate in the picture on your desk), you should be able to push down on the backplate. (Obviously keep them together until you have placed it flat again lest the hammers fall out.)
      Once you got them flat again, lift the top or bottom edge of the backplate a little and you should be able to slide the backplate away from you or towards you, releasing it from the opposite row of tabs.

      Clear enough?
      There are some Youtube videos around of people taking apart model Fs. Since I'm currently using "narrow-band", I can't search for them.


      I understand how the opposite row of tabs slide in and out of place.   I'm just now sure how the side with the bent tab locks in place.  From what I gathered, I basically held it in place while bending the tab to keep it there.  If I let go of the PC Board side, it would basically spring open.   Am I missing something really simple here??

      BTW, the backspace mod works incredibly well.  Right now my backspace is barely stiffer than the rest of the keys.   This keyboard is SOOOO loud LOL!!

      If you can point me to a Youtube video I would greatly appreciate it.   I can't seem to find anything under IBM Model F.  

      Thx,

      skc

      EDIT:  I'm an idiot.   I looked a little more closely at the assembly and I realized that I didn't have the tabs lined up on the PC Board side.   There was literally a 2mm gap btwn the plate and the frame.   DOOHH!!   So I move the plate 1/2mm to the left, bent the far right tab into the slot and BINGO, correct assembly after 8 attempts.   I didn't take pics, but if you could show how both sides need to line up for re-assembly, I'm sure it would save potential modketeers a LOT of pain and suffering.  

      Now my Backspace doesn't wiggle and wobble anymore and I can type 000 and --- and === without any issues!!  

      I definitely encourage anyone who loves their AT F to try both the Space Bar and the Big Backspace mod.  

      In addition to these mods, I added a Red Esc key by the Num Lock which looks GREAT on this board.  And I also swapped in some nibbed F and J keys from a model M.   Now I'm loving this board!!!  

      Thanks for all of your help JBert!!!   Great stuff!!
      « Last Edit: Thu, 29 April 2010, 10:30:30 by skcheng »

      Offline skcheng

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      « Reply #62 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 10:32:56 »
      One other thing for anyone considering this modification.  With Windows XP Pro or Windows 7 Ultimate, the |\ key is automatically recognized.   Nothing needs to be done in addition to swapping the spring/hammer position and placing in the appropriate key.  So of course this mod is totally reversible.   That's for certain members with many posts and a NIB $450 AT F who might be on the fence about altering his/her closet shelf board :)

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #63 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 15:55:48 »
      It seems they never thought that a standard AT keyboard had that much keys or scancodes.
      Did you read this: Ubuntu: Multimediakeys?
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

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      Offline skcheng

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      « Reply #64 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 11:48:21 »
      I finally got some pictures loaded so that I could share some input with regards to this mod which I happen to REALLY like.

      Here are two of my PC AT boards.  One is "like new" and the seller asked me to keep it in original condition.   So I obliged and decided to mod my "lesser" unit that arrived with a broken Enter key and is probably a 6 out of 10 in my ultra picky ranking of vintage gear.  



      A closer shot of the board:



      Note the pitting and corrosion on the metal main frame.  Clean it aggressively and you will remove the paint/primer and it will rust if used in a humid environment or if liquid is spilled onto the board.



      Close up of the condition of the metal frame:



      Next up is separating the casing.   This thing will squeal, creak like it's breaking in half when you take the two pieces apart.  As Haata mentions, that's "normal".  LOL.  Look at the pretty plated rear frame.  IBM obviously stopped doing that with the Model M.  I do have one really nice Space Saving Mini with what appears to be a nickel plated metal frame, but the rest of them look like crap.  Rough cut metal and that's it.  

      Anyone try the single malts from Balvenie??   Wonderful stuff, especially my favorite the 21 yr. Portwood offering.  Just delicious.  



      Here is a photo of the underside with what appears to be an undercoating of some kind.  Maybe one of the IbM gurus can chime in to explain why this was used??   Damping factor??   I don't know......but it's cool!!



      Now disconnect all of this stuff but take a quick glance at where the connectors fit into the main PC board.  The first time I re-assembled the board, I thought I had blown out my LED strip, but I had simply snapped in the connector improperly engaging only one row of pins.   DOOHHH!!  



      Pop the metal tab in the back, hit the metal frame lightly with a hard rubber mallet and rear metal frame and capacitve board come free.   I advise that you support the the spring/hammer assembly with left right supports unless you happen to enjoy replacing springs/hammers on these b/s boards.  I don't so I used two boxes on either side of the assembly.  Maybe I'm a Geek/Gleek, but I think this shot is simply beautiful:



      And here's the rest of the assembly:



      Space bar mod.   Now this is a tough one.   I did this 4 times to get it right.  First time....still too firm.   2nd time, too light, 3rd time, too light again and then on the 4th try I got it right.  I shot for standard Model M stiffness.  I have no method of gauging how much tension to set with this spring.  Just trial and error.   This was painful changing it again and again.   HUGE word of advice.   Use dental floss to hold the hammer/spring tight and pull it through the cylinder when re-assembling the case.  Otherwise, you'll end up swearing like a drunk sailor when your space bar feels great, but doesn't actuate.  



      Haata's instructions are pretty clear about swapping the hammer position, placing the white key stabilizers and swapping in the appropriate keys, so just follow them.   Takes 2 minutes from here:



      And here's the end result.  Red Esc key looks awesome there imho.   On every other board, that key will sit on the top left.......BORING!!!!  



      I also swapped out the "F" and the "J" keycaps for regular Model M "nibbed" caps.    And it's nice that this board has the arrow keys on the home row.  You quickly get used to the position although you lose this when you apply the Num Lock.   Oh well.....no perfect board.  If there was, Geekhack would cease to exist and we would all own that one board.  

      Hope this was helpful.  And I hope that this encourages Model AT F fans to give this a try.   It's well worth the effort.  And it's fully reversible.   If you want, for a small fee, I'll increase the stiffness of your space bar so that it would require foot activation  :-))

      Thanks for reading!!

      skc
      « Last Edit: Mon, 03 May 2010, 12:27:11 by skcheng »

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #65 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 12:28:22 »
      Quote from: ripster;178159
      Nice pics.  

      I'm almost ready to try it but did you take pics of this process?


      In general it seems taking apart is easy.  Putting back together is difficult.

      P.S.  The "don't mod my baby" comment of the one seller cracked me up.   Is this an Open Adoption where you have to send pictures every Christmas?



      Don't mod your NIB one.   Just keep that one stock.   You paid $450 for it right??  In ten years, it should be worth at least $460  LOL.   Just find another one to mod/tweak.   Or if you can't, I'll sell/trade you one.  I'm up to 4 working units and 4 broken ones that I should be able to repair.  

      Just look closely at the notches on the bottom and the top of the assembly.  You'll be able to figure it out.  Someone was drunk at the wheel stamping out those metal plates because the notches and flanges don't exactly line up.  When you re-assemble the case, install the bottom first and slide the hooks in untill they won't slide any further, then gently lower the top section, and while holding it firmly (you could use clamps) bend the tab into the notch on the upper right.   Simple.  I used rubber tip forceps but any pair of pliers will work just fine.  

      It would be a very nice mod to drill a few holes through the top in order to bolt the assembly together.  But that would be a LOT of work and probably not necessary.

      I'm mod'ing another unit this week and I'll take some pics on hints for re-assembly.  

      The seller of my "mint" AT F is an IBM purist.  Since the AT F works on modern pcs, he doesn't see the need to modify the board.  He suggests that I should appreciate the board for what it is and search for another board if I prefer a different layout or a lighter space bar.   But in all fairness, the unit I received from him has a "reasonable" space bar.  It's stiff, but I could deal with it.  On the unit that I modified, the space bar was a joke.  Two thumbs required.  

      Oh ..... and the seller wasn't Brian O'Neill who has been GREAT to me.  I'll post my positive thoughts on Brian and rarekeyboardstore later this week.  People like him are what make hobbies like this fun!!!

      Offline ricercar

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #66 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 16:16:38 »
      Wait wait wait. rip, don't tell me the $450 was just for sex, no keyboard?
      I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #67 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 18:38:51 »
      Quote from: ripster;178176
      I'm pretty sure Maxlugar has to pay for it but we're talking keyboards in this thread.


      LOL, at the moment, I only pay for some strange now & then, when I'm on the road.

      I'm sure I'll have to pay for it someday when I'm 50, fat, bald, and losing me teeth. (kinda how I picture you now rip)  JK   :)

      And if you didn't pay $450 for the NIB 84-key, then Brandon obviously likes you more than the rest of us.  :)
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #68 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 20:16:12 »
      Great Unsolved GeekHack Mystery #1:   What did Ripster pay for his NIB IBM PC AT 84 key Keyboard????!!!!????

      Offline ricercar

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      « Reply #69 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 23:57:33 »
      [troll of ripster blocked]
      I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #70 on: Mon, 03 May 2010, 02:31:23 »
      Quote from: ripster;178341
      ...


      Ha Ha Ha!

      I must have missed Miss Manners' advice column on that particular day.

      It's not as if Brandon runs a silent auction.  I mean he does list the keyboard sales prices on his COMMERCE web page.  If the ripster gets preferential pricing, more power to him.  I don't think any of us really want to know exactly how ripster qualifies for those "special" discounts  (bad visual)  :)

      Ironic that bit Miss Manners mentioned about bail.  If my Phoenix customers continue to behave badly and push the legal envelope, I might have to call on my affluent friends in the geekhack community to bail me out of jail someday.  (If I had money, I'd do the same for you all)   :)
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #71 on: Mon, 03 May 2010, 04:39:52 »
      ricercar awesome avatar btw.

      Now I want to go skiing :(
      Passed 2 running ski resorts yesterday on my bike...season ends in a couple days though.
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline kishy

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      « Reply #72 on: Mon, 03 May 2010, 10:41:32 »
      Shakespearean Turd?
      Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
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      Offline skcheng

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      « Reply #73 on: Tue, 04 May 2010, 23:06:12 »
      Geekhack must be the most "off-topic" forum I have EVER been a member of.   How does a backspace mod thread on a Model F keyboard turn into a discussion about Shakespeare and Poop???  

      So Rip, have you torn into that NIB PC AT board yet??   Or anyone else for that matter?   C'mon boys and girls (and Webby).......get ur backspace mod FREAK on.   I want to see if everyone else is as excited about this mod as I am.   Can't be just me, Jbert and Haata??    

      Rip.....do this mod and I'm sure you'll toggle your ranking at least 2 to 3 spots.  At least put it up in front of the Re^lforce LOL.

      Offline skcheng

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      « Reply #74 on: Tue, 04 May 2010, 23:08:56 »
      Quote:
      Dear Miss Manners,
      How do I handle people who persistently try to ask the price of my NIB keyboards? I suspect they are doing so out of jealousy or to try and make me feel bad. Why should I tell these rude people a thing?  

      Quote:
      Gentle Reader,
      You are quite right that you need not say anything — indeed, should not, as it only invites busybodies to probe deeper. Miss Manners suggests that you reply, "You are so kind to take an interest in my private finances, but you needn't worry. I'm managing all right, and promise that I won't be calling on you for bail money


      LOL.   I'm going to stat a poll where everyone gets to guess what Ripster paid for his NIB PC AT???   Winner with the nearest guess gets a special colored IBM Esc keycap!!!!
      « Last Edit: Tue, 04 May 2010, 23:11:15 by skcheng »

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #75 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 00:20:01 »
      Quote from: skcheng;179051
      Geekhack must be the most "off-topic" forum I have EVER been a member of.   How does a backspace mod thread on a Model F keyboard turn into a discussion about Shakespeare and Poop???  

      So Rip, have you torn into that NIB PC AT board yet??   Or anyone else for that matter?   C'mon boys and girls (and Webby).......get ur backspace mod FREAK on.   I want to see if everyone else is as excited about this mod as I am.   Can't be just me, Jbert and Haata??    

      Rip.....do this mod and I'm sure you'll toggle your ranking at least 2 to 3 spots.  At least put it up in front of the Re^lforce LOL.


      Hey, I'm excited!

      Especially since SK graciously offered to help me with the mod for a modest fee.  :)

      For me, nothing else I've tried matches the satisfaction of a well kept 84-key PC AT Model F.  I'm already accustomed to the non-standard layout, but Haa Taa's key mod seems like a way to make a great keyboard even better.

      I hate to acknowledge when ripster is right, but I  rely on the dedicated arrow keys more than I realized.  When I toggle between the 84-key and my standard 87 or 104-key boards, the hardest adjustment is the lack of dedicated cursor control keys on the AT keyboard.

      I have been very busy lately so I haven't had the time to post my impression of the nuts & bolts mod Model M Space Saving Mini.  I have to say, I like it
      much more than I expected.  

      I understand the ergonomic advantage of being able to place the mouse directly to the right of the keyboard - something I've not done with my Realforce 87U or HHKB Pro 2 because I usually place my 23UB numeric keypad to the right of the keyboard.

      I'll try and post a more substantive review of the nuts & bolts Model M Mini when I have some free time.

      Now, if one of you rocket scientists can create a mod to add dedicated cursor control keys to the 84-key AT Model F,  THAT would be impressive!
      « Last Edit: Wed, 05 May 2010, 01:56:52 by maxlugar »
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline phoenix

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #76 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 00:42:00 »
      Quote from: maxlugar;179061
      Now, if one of you rocket scientists can create a mod to add dedicated cursor control keys to the 84-key AT Model F.  THAT would be impressive!


      Where do you want them to be? There's no empty space on the board. AutoHotKey will be much simpler. Define your caps lock to add another layer of keys. E.g., Caps Lock + numpad 1,2,3,5 will be left, down, right, up. Caps Lock + numpad 4,7 for home, end, Caps Lock + numpad 6, 9 for pg up, pg down. Your thumb will almost naturally rest on Caps lock when your press those keys.

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #77 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 02:00:44 »
      Quote from: phoenix;179066
      Where do you want them to be? There's no empty space on the board. AutoHotKey will be much simpler. Define your caps lock to add another layer of keys. E.g., Caps Lock + numpad 1,2,3,5 will be left, down, right, up. Caps Lock + numpad 4,7 for home, end, Caps Lock + numpad 6, 9 for pg up, pg down. Your thumb will almost naturally rest on Caps lock when your press those keys.


      I want dedicated arrow keys in the shape of an inverted T!

      I know there's no empty space on the board and no practical way to do it.  That's why I'm challenging the collective intellectual capacity of the geekhack geniuses to find a way to achieve the seemingly impossible.  :)
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline phoenix

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #78 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 02:13:31 »
      Quote from: maxlugar;179072
      I want dedicated arrow keys in the shape of an inverted T!


      AHK is not a real solution, but the keys I proposed, 1,2,3 and 5, are in the shape of an inverted T...

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #79 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 02:17:23 »
      Quote from: phoenix;179075
      AHK is not a real solution, but the keys I proposed, 1,2,3 and 5, are in the shape of an inverted T...


      I know and I appreciate the suggestion.  :)  

      Are you still using your 84-key Model F?  If so, what impressions have you formed relative to your other keyboards?
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline phoenix

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #80 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 03:46:37 »
      Quote from: maxlugar;179077
      Are you still using your 84-key Model F?  If so, what impressions have you formed relative to your other keyboards?


      Not using it much (been trying a Topre 87u lately), but it's the best thing I've typed on. (That's not saying much. I've only tried Cherry brown/black, Black Alps, Model M and Topre.) Until we have a good solution for arrow keys I can't use the Model F for much text editing, which is what I do a lot these days. Someone needs to do a mod to bring back the two unused contacts under the space bar. With more modifier keys by the thumbs, a true hhkb-styled layout mod may become feasible (I want left-thumb Fn + IJKL to be the arrows).

      This reminds me. What happened to msiegel's Model F Mod?

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #81 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 06:48:58 »
      Quote from: maxlugar;179061
      Hey, I'm excited!

      Especially since SK graciously offered to help me with the mod for a modest fee.  :)

      For me, nothing else I've tried matches the satisfaction of a well kept 84-key PC AT Model F.  I'm already accustomed to the non-standard layout, but Haa Taa's key mod seems like a way to make a great keyboard even better.

      I hate to acknowledge when ripster is right, but I  rely on the dedicated arrow keys more than I realized.  When I toggle between the 84-key and my standard 87 or 104-key boards, the hardest adjustment is the lack of dedicated cursor control keys on the AT keyboard.

      I have been very busy lately so I haven't had the time to post my impression of the nuts & bolts mod Model M Space Saving Mini.  I have to say, I like it
      much more than I expected.  

      I understand the ergonomic advantage of being able to place the mouse directly to the right of the keyboard - something I've not done with my Realforce 87U or HHKB Pro 2 because I usually place my 23UB numeric keypad to the right of the keyboard.

      I'll try and post a more substantive review of the nuts & bolts Model M Mini when I have some free time.

      Now, if one of you rocket scientists can create a mod to add dedicated cursor control keys to the 84-key AT Model F,  THAT would be impressive!



      Shoot me out your board with the WORST space bar.   And see if you can spare the parts needed for this backspace mod.   I keep buying Model M boards thinking that I'll be using them as donor boards, but then I simply repair them and replace the missing keys.   If you can't find the parts no big deal since I now have enough spare keys to modify two more AT F boards.  And now I know what I'm doing LOL.  

      I need to nuts/bolts modify another Space Saving Mini too.   Next up will be a completely silenced Mini with those o-rings, Super Floss, one piece caps and the nuts/bolts mod.

      Offline skcheng

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      « Reply #82 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 06:49:30 »
      Quote from: phoenix;179100
      Not using it much (been trying a Topre 87u lately), but it's the best thing I've typed on. (That's not saying much. I've only tried Cherry brown/black, Black Alps, Model M and Topre.) Until we have a good solution for arrow keys I can't use the Model F for much text editing, which is what I do a lot these days. Someone needs to do a mod to bring back the two unused contacts under the space bar. With more modifier keys by the thumbs, a true hhkb-styled layout mod may become feasible (I want left-thumb Fn + IJKL to be the arrows).

      This reminds me. What happened to msiegel's Model F Mod?



      What was msiegel's mod??

      Offline HaaTa

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #83 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 10:27:20 »
      *Glances at his Model F AT*
      *Reads msiegel's mod page again*

      Nope not happening to mine.

      Most I'll probably mod out of it, is adding the two extra keys under the spacebar. But that'll have to wait till July if I decide to go through with it.
      Well unless the controller dies, then I'll have fun with it (cry first though).
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #84 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 20:16:38 »
      Quote from: HaaTa;179159


      Well unless the controller dies, then I'll have fun with it (cry first though).


      Don't hold your breath pal.  IBM Model F keyboards are like Keith Richards.  You can abuse the hell out of 'em but they just keep working.  (with the exception of Coke spills).  

      We'll probably all be long gone before the controller in you 84-key AT keyboard dies.  After the final world war, the survivors will be Keith, cockroaches, and Model F keyboards  :)
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #85 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 21:39:35 »
      Quote from: maxlugar;179387
      Don't hold your breath pal.  IBM Model F keyboards are like Keith Richards.  You can abuse the hell out of 'em but they just keep working.  (with the exception of Coke spills).  

      We'll probably all be long gone before the controller in you 84-key AT keyboard dies.  After the final world war, the survivors will be Keith, cockroaches, and Model F keyboards  :)


      Yay!
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline mr_a500

      • Posts: 401
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #86 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 22:04:20 »
      I don't get it. Who the hell needs a big backspace key? Do people reach for the backspace, miss it, and hit the backslash instead? You'd have to be either spastic or drunk to do that. (...I guess I answered my own question there...;)

      The only problem I ever have with my AT keyboard is when some stupid application wants me to "press F12".

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #87 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 22:14:58 »
      Quote from: mr_a500;179406
      I don't get it. Who the hell needs a big backspace key? Do people reach for the backspace, miss it, and hit the backslash instead? You'd have to be either spastic or drunk to do that. (...I guess I answered my own question there...;)

      The only problem I ever have with my AT keyboard is when some stupid application wants me to "press F12".


      I personally don't have a problem with the small Backspace key on the 84-key AT keyboards, nor the large inverted L Enter key.  

      What applications are you using which require F12?  I can't remember the last time I used any application which required F11 or F12.
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline mr_a500

      • Posts: 401
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #88 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 22:21:32 »
      Quote from: maxlugar;179409
      I personally don't have a problem with the small Backspace key on the 84-key AT keyboards, nor the large inverted L Enter key.  

      What applications are you using which require F12?  I can't remember the last time I used any application which required F11 or F12.


      Actually, I can't think of any current applications I have that require it, but WinUAE (back when I still had a drive with Windows on it) uses F12 to pop up the control window. Without that, you can't even access the GUI to quit the damn thing.

      I'm used to the small backspace key, from years of using Amigas and other old computers.

      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #89 on: Wed, 05 May 2010, 23:19:26 »
      Ah the F12/F11. Yeah in software F11 is often used for Fullscreen. Recently migrated away from Opera, so that's no longer a problem for me. I really could've just fixed that with software though.

      F12 is often used for BIOS keys, so I usually need to keep a spare board around for that.
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
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      « Reply #90 on: Thu, 06 May 2010, 00:50:13 »
      Quote from: HaaTa;179423
      Ah the F12/F11. Yeah in software F11 is often used for Fullscreen. Recently migrated away from Opera, so that's no longer a problem for me. I really could've just fixed that with software though.

      F12 is often used for BIOS keys, so I usually need to keep a spare board around for that.


      Yeah, I forgot you technical types have unique requirements related to application development.

      Me?, I'm just a simple bean counter  :)
      « Last Edit: Thu, 06 May 2010, 02:24:11 by maxlugar »
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline ch_123

      • * Exalted Elder
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      « Reply #91 on: Thu, 06 May 2010, 03:05:20 »
      F11 is fullscreen for just about everything really.

      Offline skcheng

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      « Reply #92 on: Thu, 06 May 2010, 06:16:10 »
      Quote from: mr_a500;179406
      I don't get it. Who the hell needs a big backspace key? Do people reach for the backspace, miss it, and hit the backslash instead? You'd have to be either spastic or drunk to do that. (...I guess I answered my own question there...;)

      The only problem I ever have with my AT keyboard is when some stupid application wants me to "press F12".



      I got used to the small backspace, but I live in backspace land.   I use it wipe out entire sentences of stupid crap that I type here on Geekhack.  And I get tired of trying to hit the \ button and doing

      this instead.....   :)

      I don't mind the Fn buttons since I never use them.  But after 20 yrs of the standard US layout, it's hard to get accustomed to anything else.

      Offline itlnstln

      • Posts: 7048
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      « Reply #93 on: Thu, 06 May 2010, 07:37:08 »
      Quote from: webwit;179473
      If you keep hitting \ it means the HHKB layout is better.

      Damnit.  I do this.


      Offline trievalot

      • Posts: 246
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #94 on: Thu, 06 May 2010, 08:03:54 »
      Quote from: HaaTa;179423
      Ah the F12/F11. Yeah in software F11 is often used for Fullscreen. Recently migrated away from Opera, so that's no longer a problem for me. I really could've just fixed that with software though.

      F12 is often used for BIOS keys, so I usually need to keep a spare board around for that.


      you have a spare keyboard???? zomg.

      well.....im just a spastic who needs a big backspace key.
      [SIGPIC]

      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #95 on: Thu, 06 May 2010, 08:47:00 »
      I always have a second board available for when my mood changes. Rather than punch someone in the face, I pull out the Model F and sound like a machine gun for a few hours.
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline kishy

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      « Reply #96 on: Thu, 06 May 2010, 12:52:00 »
      And hit them with the keyboard.
      Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
      Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
      kishy.ca

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
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      « Reply #97 on: Thu, 06 May 2010, 14:21:27 »
      Quote from: skcheng;179051
      So Rip, have you torn into that NIB PC AT board yet??   Or anyone else for that matter?   C'mon boys and girls (and Webby).......get ur backspace mod FREAK on.   I want to see if everyone else is as excited about this mod as I am.   Can't be just me, Jbert and Haata??
      Actually, I haven't done this mod. I like the keyboard pretty much as it is, only the extremely heavy weight of the spacebar was killing my thumb. (Seriously, with its 70-80g it was 1/3 heavier than the rest of the keys)

      Seeing how I use Colemak, I can still use my Caps Lock key which I can safely press with the edge of my right hand.
      Never used it though,  I tend to hit the backspace key accurately.
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

      The storage list:
      IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


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      Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
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      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #98 on: Fri, 07 May 2010, 10:44:07 »
      Quote from: JBert;179545
      Actually, I haven't done this mod. I like the keyboard pretty much as it is, only the extremely heavy weight of the spacebar was killing my thumb. (Seriously, with its 70-80g it was 1/3 heavier than the rest of the keys)

      Seeing how I use Colemak, I can still use my Caps Lock key which I can safely press with the edge of my right hand.
      Never used it though,  I tend to hit the backspace key accurately.


      The small backspace was a big negative for me.  I rarely use the Caps Lock, so the position didn't matter, but I'm just so used to have the |\ key in the familiar position.   Can't get used to the HHKB2 (yet) for the same reason.

      Just try this mod.......it's fully reversible.  Now that I know how to lock down that space bar hammer/spring, it takes me minutes to re-assemble the case.   Piece of cake.   Taking apart another AT F keyboard right now to fix some damage to some of the barrels on the numpad.   Almost looks like something REALLY heavy was dropped on the numpad side cracking a bunch of keys and the barrels.

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #99 on: Fri, 07 May 2010, 10:53:38 »
      Quote from: ripster;179810
      SK - can you take some pics during reassembly.  This alignment thing sounded confusing.


      Yes, I will.   I just took apart  (in btwn pts)  a regular Model F board and dumped out all of the barrels and hammer springs.   I'll take pics when I get a chance on re-assembly with some tips.  

      Someone mentioned flipping the board upside down before replacing the keys and I know why.   It's easy on the Model F to snag while replacing keycaps.  On those few that don't register properly, flip the board upside down and replace the cap.   I know that sounds silly and totally unnecessary with standard Model M boards, but it's just one of the oddities about the Model F.

      Offline skcheng

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      « Reply #100 on: Fri, 07 May 2010, 10:55:43 »
      Another note.  My 11 yr. old son shares my main computer with me and he's had an opportunity to try out all of my various keyboards.   Hates the HHKB2 and doesn't understand why I would want an "Otaku" style board.  

      His faves thus far:  

      1.  IBM PC AT Model F
      2.  Filco Blue with the DS keys
      3.  IBM Space Saving Mini
      4.  Logitech G15  (likes the screen for gaming)

      Too funny!!!!

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #101 on: Fri, 07 May 2010, 11:24:19 »
      Quote from: ripster;179824
      Ack!  G15!  Child Protection Services!


      I agree.  I wouldn't be here if I was happy with the G15.  But it is cool have the latest Obama or Tiger Woods news broadcasted on the screen while playing Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2  :)

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #102 on: Sat, 08 May 2010, 07:09:20 »
      Quote from: ripster;179810
      SK - can you take some pics during reassembly.  This alignment thing sounded confusing.


      Here you go rip.   Here is a unit that I recently took apart.    It's actually VERY easy if you know what you're doing.  

      First of all, if you look at the assembly, you'll see that the only thing that really holds everything intact is this metal clip on the upper right.  I recommend using a prying tool  (didn't have my Atwood Prybaby with me at the time, so I used a dental tool) to bend this tab, but just enough to separate it slightly from the frame.  Like so:



      A simple tip is to mark where the tabs seat prior to taking it apart.  I used a Sharpie which will wipe clean with a little alchohol:



      Now ideally you're supporting this assembly on the left and the right so that the hammers/spring and cylinders stay intact.   So just ignore the fact that I took everything apart here.  

      Once the metal tab on the top right is bent back, you can see the assembly slides and comes apart.   If you're lucky, simply using your hands will allow the the two parts to slide and come apart.  If not, seat the assembly left side down (as you read the label) and rap the black metal frame with a rubber mallet to move the notches to the left.  It will simply drop down about 4mm and come apart.  

      Then just lift the metal back plate away from the rest of the assembly.

      You'll be left with this:



      At this point, fix the backspace.  It's really easy.  Move the spring/hammer diagonally for the |\ key and that's it.  

      On the space bar  (can't find the spring, so ignore that), simply loop a piece of floss around the spring/hammer and through the cylinder like so:





      After doing this, replace the space bar and the spring as directed by Jbert.  I used Glide branded PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) aka Teflon for this purpose because it is thin and very slippery.   Do NOT use Superfloss for this purpose as you will never get it past the barrel/Space Bar key.   IMPORTANT step here with reassembly.   I didn't do this at first and trying to squish the plates together without moving the spring/hammer is VERY difficult.   Doing it this way is idiot proof.  

      Now just do everything in reverse.  Line the plate and frame together carefully.   Make certain that all of the springs/hammers are centered properly.  

      Seat the sliding groove/latch bottom section first:



      Now gently lower the other side down and slide till the latches lock:



      You know you're there when the markings line up.  And you'll see how the upper right can be bent back to lock everything in place.   I used rubber tipped dental forceps.  But a small amount of electrical tap will protect the tab from getting scratched if you use pliers.   Bend the upper right tab till it locks into the notch and that's it.   DONE.   Eezy peezy.  

      Hope this helps.  Let me know if there any other questions and I'll do my best to help.  

      skc

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #103 on: Sat, 08 May 2010, 10:08:59 »
      Quote from: ripster;180154
      Thanks!   That does help.  Your foam stuff looks pretty new too - I  was worried it would start crumbling in my hands.


      The foam is actually a fairly nice high density foam.   And I forgot to mention, make a note of where the foam fits over the latches.   But that's only if you disassemble the entire board, which I definitely don't recommend on a new board.

      And follow JBert's instructions on removing the spring on the space bar.  That helped.   You'll need some needle nose pliers to replace the bar.  

      I don't know how anyone removes the space bar on these without taking the entire assembly apart.  You'll see what I mean as soon as you start working on it.  

      Oh.....and don't forget to remove the keys before getting started.   Otherwise, all of the hammer/springs will fly off.  

      Have fun!!

      skc

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #104 on: Sun, 09 May 2010, 08:43:36 »
      Quote from: skcheng;180168
      And follow JBert's instructions on removing the spring on the space bar.  That helped.   You'll need some needle nose pliers to replace the bar.
      Thanks for posting pics about the looped-wire trick I described earlier. I'll post my original pics in the other mod thread, still hadn't got to it.

      Quote from: skcheng;180168
      I don't know how anyone removes the space bar on these without taking the entire assembly apart.  You'll see what I mean as soon as you start working on it.  

      Oh.....and don't forget to remove the keys before getting started.   Otherwise, all of the hammer/springs will fly off.
      Some people read "all keys except the spacebar" as "all keys". They then accidentally discover that you can pry off the spacebar by pulling until the stabilizer spring bends.

      This doesn't mean you should do it as you may damage the board. You'll need to disassemble the keyboard anyway seeing how you can't get the stabilizer spring connected to the spacebar. Actually, incidents like a removed spacebar is how most people learn that it can take a whole afternoon to assemble it your first time.
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

      The storage list:
      IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


      Currently ignored by: nobody?

      Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
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      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #105 on: Sun, 09 May 2010, 09:26:38 »
      Quote from: JBert;180344
      Thanks for posting pics about the looped-wire trick I described earlier. I'll post my original pics in the other mod thread, still hadn't got to it.

      Some people read "all keys except the spacebar" as "all keys". They then accidentally discover that you can pry off the spacebar by pulling until the stabilizer spring bends.

      This doesn't mean you should do it as you may damage the board. You'll need to disassemble the keyboard anyway seeing how you can't get the stabilizer spring connected to the spacebar. Actually, incidents like a removed spacebar is how most people learn that it can take a whole afternoon to assemble it your first time.



      In many ways, I can really appreciate how much work went into the Model F PC AT.   Separate cylinders, metal top and bottom plates.   Metal covers.   And still one of the nicest typing experiences out there.  

      I've found that well used PC AT boards have less "stiff" space bars.  The "like new" (don't have a NIB one until Rip or Max decide to sell me one of theirs) boards are the ones with the thumb busting bars.  And I've already lost one spring......  Oh well.....it was a broken XT board anyway.  

      I just repaired a "broken" PC AT board and I'm almost done modifying another board.  Takes me minutes now to get one of these apart and back together.  That first attempt took me all evening.

      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #106 on: Sun, 09 May 2010, 16:04:18 »
      Posted my original looped-wire pictures here. I've linked to your post containing the picture with the PTFE floss.
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

      The storage list:
      IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


      Currently ignored by: nobody?

      Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
      [/SIZE]

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #107 on: Sun, 09 May 2010, 17:59:32 »
      Quote from: JBert;180479
      Posted my original looped-wire pictures here. I've linked to your post containing the picture with the PTFE floss.


      Great tutorial on looping down that spring/hammer.  Much better than my quickie pics.  Thanks for taking the time!!

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #108 on: Mon, 10 May 2010, 11:26:54 »
      Quote from: skcheng;179814
      Another note.  My 11 yr. old son shares my main computer with me and he's had an opportunity to try out all of my various keyboards.   Hates the HHKB2 and doesn't understand why I would want an "Otaku" style board.  

      His faves thus far:  

      1.  IBM PC AT Model F
      2.  Filco Blue with the DS keys
      3.  IBM Space Saving Mini
      4.  Logitech G15  (likes the screen for gaming)

      Too funny!!!!


      If the 84-key PC AT Model F  is your 11 year old son's favourite keyboard, I may have to reconsider the KING of Keyboards  :)
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #109 on: Mon, 10 May 2010, 11:40:34 »
      Quote from: maxlugar;180716
      If the 84-key PC AT Model F  is your 11 year old son's favourite keyboard, I may have to reconsider the KING of Keyboards  :)


      Yeah, what do you think of his 4th choice??  He also likes Legos.....

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #110 on: Mon, 10 May 2010, 11:55:08 »
      Quote from: skcheng;180720
      Yeah, what do you think of his 4th choice??  He also likes Legos.....


      Actually, with the exception of the Logitech, I think your son has exceptionally good taste in keyboards.  No dout acquired from, or at least highly influenced by his father.

      I was deprived of Legos as a child.  In the UK, I had a Meccano set (similar to an Erector set) but no fun coloured blocks to snap together.  

      I'll bet your son and ripster could talk legos for hours  :)
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #111 on: Mon, 10 May 2010, 12:04:14 »
      Quote from: ripster;180724
      You guys are missing the wave.  Big bucks in Lego Porn.  

      Stop  buggin me.  I gotta finish up my iPad app.
      Show Image


      How old did you say your son was SK?

      You will probably want to wait until he turns 21 before he has that Lego discussion with Ripster!
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #112 on: Wed, 12 May 2010, 21:36:14 »
      All done Max!!!   Took just a few minutes.  Here are some before shots:





      Messed up small backspace and poorly located |\ key.

      Case popped open.  This case squealed like a pig until it popped open.  
      Bent tabs on the upper left and the upper right.  Some of these have one bent tab whereas others have two.  





      Here's another tip on re-assembly of the case.  Use the screw heads to center things inside the case.  There should be a slight 1/2 moon shape to the left and right of the hex bolts like such:





      This will insure that the space bar and the left and right of the keyboard are centered.  Flip board around to check centering.  

      All done.  Look at my poor mangled key puller.  Maybe it's time for a new one.



      Nibs that should have been there all along on the "F" and "J" keys



      The first thing I check when I put everything back together:



      All set and ready for battle!!!  



      A new look and feel for the "Queen" of Keyboards   :))

      Hope you like!!

      skc

      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #113 on: Wed, 12 May 2010, 22:21:10 »
      Awesome!

      I can't wait to type on it.  That red Escape key is kinda cool. Wonder where that came from?  :)

      I'm typing on a Blue Cherry Filco (FKBN104MC/EB) at the moment and really missing that particular 84-key AT keyboard which is my primary office keyboard.   I'll have to bring another 84-key AT keyboard to the office from my stash at home until I receive my new mod.
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #114 on: Wed, 12 May 2010, 22:36:38 »
      Quote from: ripster;181749
      Haha.  Got me.  I don't have the blue guy.

      You don't have Jango Fett???   It's a tough one to find.

      Offline iMav

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #115 on: Sun, 16 May 2010, 00:44:47 »
      Nice mod.  I don't get special pricing, so I paid $450 for my NIB 'board. :)

      This mod gave me a great idea.  I won't be doing this mod exactly, something similar though.

      Offline ch_123

      • * Exalted Elder
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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #116 on: Sun, 16 May 2010, 06:18:04 »
      Double-space backspace is for the weak.

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #117 on: Sun, 16 May 2010, 06:42:59 »
      I'd like to do a small space bar mod and add two keys to the left and right of the space bar.  Just need to figure out how I'm going to stabilize the space bar??

      The AT-F has quickly become my fave mod fodder.

      Offline iMav

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #118 on: Sun, 16 May 2010, 08:05:27 »
      Quote from: webwit;182890
      Does it involve the Right Shift?

      Nope.

      Offline skcheng

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #119 on: Sun, 16 May 2010, 08:22:30 »
      Quote from: ripster;182908
      Cut off that useless numpad!  It doesn't even have an ENTER.


      I like the numpad on the AT-F.   I use it quite a bit when I type with the AT-F.   You're SOL if you need numpad and arrow keys though.

      Offline iMav

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #120 on: Sat, 29 May 2010, 17:22:32 »
      Ok.  I was hoping for a fully emulated HHKB layout (minus the function key layer).

      This is what I was aiming for (imagine the backslash key is delete/backspace):



      Unfortunately, under OS X, the key above the enter and the original backslash register the exact same scancode.  Soooo, when I remap backslash to delete, it's for both keys.  So this is what I have right now (again, the big backslash is delete (also, the bottom right caps lock has been remapped to Command):



      Unicomp is sending me a blackslash key with "Delete" printed on it and a "Return" key to replace the "enter" key.

      Offline iMav

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #121 on: Tue, 01 June 2010, 20:42:19 »
      Thanks to Unicomp:


      Offline maxlugar

      • Posts: 379
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #122 on: Wed, 02 June 2010, 01:05:33 »
      Quote from: iMav;188787
      Thanks to Unicomp:



      Nice!

      How do you like the feel of your formerly NIB, newly modded 84-key AT Model F ???
      « Last Edit: Wed, 02 June 2010, 01:24:58 by maxlugar »
      Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

      Offline iMav

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #123 on: Wed, 02 June 2010, 08:49:01 »
      After a few days of using it exclusively, I really like it.  I would have to say from a construction standpoint, it is definitely my favorite buckling spring 'board.  The M2 comes in second.  This is, primarily, due to the ease of serviceability.  Cracking the case of a standard Model M is a pain in the butt.  I like that with both the Model F and M2, you can easily access the BS assemblies without much heartache.

      The Model F is definitely addicting to type on...just like any high-quality keyboard.

      Offline phoenix

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #124 on: Wed, 02 June 2010, 13:39:45 »
      For backspace/delete, I like them without text:

      Front: White delete from Wheelwriter 3 (Bad focus. The symbol is sharp.)
      Back left: Gray delete from Wheelwriter 1000
      Back right: Gray delete from Unicomp

      They are all 1.5-sized and fit the [|\] key position.


      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #125 on: Wed, 02 June 2010, 16:41:39 »
      Meh, I'm not switching.
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

      The storage list:
      IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


      Currently ignored by: nobody?

      Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
      [/SIZE]

      Offline iMav

      • geekhack creator/founder
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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #126 on: Mon, 07 June 2010, 16:47:50 »
      Getting better:





      But man, Unicomp must hate me.  These keys look like complete crap:





      Offline ch_123

      • * Exalted Elder
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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #127 on: Mon, 07 June 2010, 16:54:22 »
      The lettering on the coloured keycaps I got from Skcheng are all over the place, albeit subtly, but that command key looks pretty dire...

      Offline chimera15

      • Posts: 1441
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #128 on: Mon, 07 June 2010, 17:10:25 »
      I tried using my model f yesterday, and not having a big backspace was a major annoyance, awesome mod.
      Alps boards:
      white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
      white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
      white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
      white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
      low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
      black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
      blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
      rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


      Offline phoenix

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #129 on: Mon, 07 June 2010, 17:45:02 »
      Quote from: iMav;190654
      But man, Unicomp must hate me.  These keys look like complete crap

      My option and command keys look exactly like that.

      - Print not level.
      - Option and Command are not in the same font size. Command is printed at least 1 size smaller, even though there's plenty of room on the key for Command.
      - Arial. Arial !?
      - The print is kinda faded, not very black.

      Chuck has been so nice I couldn't bring myself to complain about them...

      Offline phoenix

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #130 on: Mon, 07 June 2010, 18:06:03 »
      Quote from: ripster;190694
      Actually I think Chuck is not so subtly telling us that he's not really interested in being in the custom key printing business.

      My other keys are fine. Since these are all manually done (especially when you print stuff onto a key of different size), a bit of mis-alignment is inevitable. My green on green Alt keys look perfect. Ctrl keys are also very good. Special items, not so much.

      Offline phoenix

      • Posts: 92
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #131 on: Mon, 07 June 2010, 18:27:42 »
      Quote from: webwit;190700
      I think they mount them all in the same machine, colored ones too, but sometimes they don't mount them well or the machinery is aging. Also the ink is smudgy sometimes. Looks a bit lazy to me. I guess if they make 10, a few are not so good. They should throw these away. The best way to achieve this is by trolling Chuck, by telling him how fantastic Lexmark quality control is.


      That's true for normal keys. According to Chuck, if you print Caps Lock on a Tab key, for example, you cannot mount it on the machine. I'm just happy that they are even willing to do it.

      Offline kishy

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #132 on: Mon, 07 June 2010, 18:31:18 »
      Hmmm...ripster, it seems SKCheng sent you a set of Mini keys (embedded numpad).
      Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
      Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
      kishy.ca

      Offline RSA27

      • Posts: 17
      Trouble with the spacebar mod
      « Reply #133 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:03:23 »
      I am having trouble with this mod, specifically the pipe key.  I am in windows, the new backspace works fine, the enter key is fine, but the pipe key does...nothing.
      Is there anything you need to do in windows to get it to work?  I got the new keys from clickykeyboards, the stems are identical to the ones original on the model F - I moved the hammer to the right spot, creating two blanks - one beside the backspace and one beside the enter key.

      Do i need to remap pipe in windows?
      Any help would be appreciated.

      Offline HaaTa

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #134 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:27:14 »
      Autohotkey should do it.

      Though first you should probably check if the hammer is properly aligned (e.g. getting a keycode). Dunno how that works in Windows.
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline RSA27

      • Posts: 17
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #135 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:38:29 »
      Aquakeytest shows nothing when i press the key, don't know if that means anything or not.  Not sure how aquakeytest gets the input.
      However, I am plugged into a usb port - at->ps2->usb
      Maybe this has something to do with it.

      Offline RSA27

      • Posts: 17
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #136 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:43:19 »
      Nothing...deadness...despair...blackness..my clicky spacebar modded, backspace modded AT model F is borked.....
      in other words, aquakey doesn't register anything.

      so how do I fix it?
      « Last Edit: Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:46:35 by RSA27 »

      Offline RSA27

      • Posts: 17
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #137 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 15:52:58 »
      I'm at work so I don't have a native ps2 port here.  I will bring it home and test on one of my machines with a true legacy port.
      No idea if this will have any effect at all.  I will also bust it apart and see if the hammer is misalligned.  Key feels normal when pressed though.  I would think that you could probably tell if the hammer was not aligned by the keypress.  There is not really all that much room to screw up.

      If anyone has any ideas, or have seen this problem before, please let me know.

      Worst case scenario, I make it normal again...

      Offline JohnElliott

      • Posts: 109
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #138 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 16:07:59 »
      Quote from: RSA27;222867
      However, I am plugged into a usb port - at->ps2->usb
      Maybe this has something to do with it.


      This is almost certainly it.

      PS/2 to USB converters tend to throw away scancodes they don't understand.

      Offline RSA27

      • Posts: 17
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #139 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 16:11:45 »
      Awesome, thanks.  I'll try a real ps2 port when I get home.

      On another note, anyone know where I can get a couple model M spacers?  Would really help my backspace and enter keys.

      Offline Daniel Beaver

      • Posts: 504
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #140 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 16:11:49 »
      Make sure you put the foam backing in the right way - Metal plate, then foam, then stems, then paddles. When I did this mod, I originally put that back together in the wrong order, so the paddles wouldn't reach all the way to the surface of the PCB (the keys felt like they were triggering, but weren't). Simple mistake, drove me nuts for a couple of hours.

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      Offline RSA27

      • Posts: 17
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #141 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 16:19:53 »
      I never actually took the stems out.  I just took the back plate off, moved the hammers, lightened the spacebar spring, and put it back together.  The foam never came off.
      Thanks for the reply though.  I'm hoping its because im using a crappy passive usb adapter.

      Offline RSA27

      • Posts: 17
      Bad news
      « Reply #142 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 14:36:17 »
      Still doesn't work on a native ps2 port.

      I have a question:
      Has anyone actually done this mod and used the keyboard with windows?  Has anyone *actually* had windows automagically pick up that scan code and have your pipe key work with no other modifications?

      Aquakey doesn't even register an input, so i'm curious if there is just something wrong with the pad on my keyboard, or if this mod doesn't actually work with windows.

      Thanks,

      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #143 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 14:47:30 »
      Have you tried opening the board back up, and making sure the hammer is properly placed (a pain, I know)?

      If you really do think it's the board, make sure you can trace the circuit on the board back to the controller for the pad.
      Kiibohd

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      Offline RSA27

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      « Reply #144 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 17:52:18 »
      Actually I'm thinking it may just be windows.  I will check to see if its the hammer...although I don't think its the pad..everything else on the board works great, and it looked great when I inspected.

      I would really like to hear from someone who has ACTUALLY done this mod and is using it with windows.  I Don't remember anyone confirming this works, just some speculation that it "should" work.

      Offline sethstorm

      • Posts: 257
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      « Reply #145 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 18:17:37 »
      Quote from: RSA27;223365
      Actually I'm thinking it may just be windows.  I will check to see if its the hammer...although I don't think its the pad..everything else on the board works great, and it looked great when I inspected.

      I would really like to hear from someone who has ACTUALLY done this mod and is using it with windows.  I Don't remember anyone confirming this works, just some speculation that it "should" work.


      Can't vouch for an AT F, but I can vouch for its Terminal Board F cousin that returns the same 0x75 keycode.  Remapped it with KeyTweak, works nicely as the proper backslash key.
      Current:
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      Offline Daniel Beaver

      • Posts: 504
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #146 on: Sat, 25 September 2010, 02:24:57 »
      Way back in February, ch_123 posted this:

      Quote
      It is theoretically possible to mod the keyboard to have a standard sized space bar and two Alt keys flanking it. However, you'd have to a) cut out two holes in the plate to make room for the barrels for the extra Alt keys, and b) find some way of holding the stabilizer bar for a Model M space bar.


      I had also noticed this when first opening it up, so I decided to try modifying the board so as to add in the extra modifier keys on the bottom. The Model F AT has switch plates in the correct locations for this to work.



      Here is a Model M spacebar, with flanking alt keys, all mounted on model F stems.



      Oh damn, perfect fit. The case only needs a bit of dremeling to fit the stems, and I can superglue some plastic slots for the spacebar stabilizer bar. This should work. Except...

      Those switches under the alt keys? They do not return any scan codes. At all. In fact, they are the only switches on the board that do not return scan codes.

      ****.

      For now, this mod looks dead in the water. The board controller probably picks these up fine, but it seems that for some reason it does not get sent on to the computer.

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      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #147 on: Sat, 25 September 2010, 08:34:53 »
      Interesting...

      Thanks for trying it out though.
      And since I never did get around showing the split keys I did before (did this back in late June):





      I really need to get some better keycaps, but for now it's ok.

      Sometime in the future, when I get my stuff organized, I'll post the scancodes, and interesting keyboard layouts for it (e.g. maps for loadkeys, XModMap, and xkb).
      Kiibohd

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      Offline ch_123

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      « Reply #148 on: Sat, 25 September 2010, 08:57:48 »
      @Daniel Beaver - did you connect the keyboard to the computer you were testing the keyboard with directly to a PS/2 or AT port, or did you use a USB adapter? USB adapters can sometimes drop certain non-standard scancodes.

      Offline kishy

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      « Reply #149 on: Sat, 25 September 2010, 10:52:32 »
      One thing that could be done, in the interest of general knowledge I suppose, would be to use a multimeter and see if those particular (non-code-sending) pads trace back to any of the wires that go to the controller.

      If so, then the controller is designed simply not to associate them with a code. If not, it's a physical variation for whatever reason.
      Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
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      Offline JohnElliott

      • Posts: 109
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #150 on: Sat, 25 September 2010, 11:26:03 »
      Quote from: Daniel Beaver;226529
      Those switches under the alt keys? They do not return any scan codes. At all. In fact, they are the only switches on the board that do not return scan codes.


      Odd. I'm sure when I had my AT F board in pieces, I tested those positions, and got codes 19h and 39h (which translate to 71h and 72h) out of them.

      Offline Daniel Beaver

      • Posts: 504
      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #151 on: Sat, 25 September 2010, 11:57:39 »
      Quote
      did you connect the keyboard to the computer you were testing the keyboard with directly to a PS/2 or AT port, or did you use a USB adapter? USB adapters can sometimes drop certain non-standard scancodes.
      I was using a USB-to-PS/2 adapter, but it returned scan-codes just fine on every other "non-standard" position. Maybe those positions are different for some reason.

      In any case, I hope I'm doing something wrong, since I really want to use those positions for alt keys. The Model F AT layout would be greatly improved if adjacent alt keys could be used. I may crack open my board again and try it with a direct-to-PS/2 connection. I can also try out the multimeter just to see what goes where.

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      Offline Daniel Beaver

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      « Reply #152 on: Sat, 25 September 2010, 12:16:06 »
      Hot damn, ch_123 is right! The do work if you plug them directly into the PS/2 port.

      *maniacal laughing and the sound of dremel on metal follows*


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      Offline Daniel Beaver

      • Posts: 504
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      « Reply #153 on: Sat, 25 September 2010, 14:22:51 »
      Success. I used a dremel to open up the alt key slots a bit, and used hot glue to hold them in place. I replaced the spacebar stem with a normal stem, and it fits perfectly without modification. The fit within the case is very tight - I ended up cutting away some of the alt keycaps to keep them from binding against the spacebar. Works perfectly now.




      I used paperclips to make guides for the spacebar stabilizers, and hot-glued them to the board. Seems to work just as well as real stabilizers.



      Yes, the plate on my board is very corroded. Thankfully, that doesn't affect performance.

      My poor brand-new Filco sits in a corner, unused.

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      Offline ch_123

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      « Reply #154 on: Sat, 25 September 2010, 14:50:53 »
      Corrosion is usually quite common those AT Model Fs. As you say, it doesn't make a lot of difference.

      Offline elbowglue

      • Posts: 583
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      « Reply #155 on: Mon, 27 September 2010, 21:31:26 »
      Quote from: Daniel Beaver;226708

      Show Image



      Even saw the lights of the Goodyear Blimp
      And it read Daniel Beaver's a Pimp.

      Nice.
      My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
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      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #156 on: Mon, 27 September 2010, 22:28:10 »
      Nice work!

      Maybe someday I'll do the same. :D
      Kiibohd

      ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
      I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

      Offline Daniel Beaver

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #157 on: Mon, 27 September 2010, 22:47:40 »
      Quote from: HaaTa;227477
      Maybe someday I'll do the same. :D

      You should. It may be intimidating to cut up a Model F, but everything about this mod is easily reversible. And the best part: instead of a keyboard with awesome switches and an odd layout, you get a keyboard with awesome switches and a standard layout. Well, about as standard as a Model F can be.

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      Offline ricercar

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      « Reply #158 on: Mon, 27 September 2010, 23:59:09 »
      Quote from: Daniel Beaver;226529
      Those switches under the alt keys? They do not return any scan codes. At all. In fact, they are the only switches on the board that do not return scan codes.

      Consider jumpers from the no-code pads to the normal ALT pads. I jumper boards all the time to use existing pads in way the PCB designer never dreamed.

      EDIT Nevermind. Didn't finish the thread before posting.
      I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

      Offline Sam

      • Posts: 189
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      « Reply #159 on: Sat, 02 October 2010, 20:57:17 »
      Quote from: Daniel Beaver;226708
      Success. I used a dremel to open up the alt key slots a bit, and used hot glue to hold them in place. I replaced the spacebar stem with a normal stem, and it fits perfectly without modification. The fit within the case is very tight - I ended up cutting away some of the alt keycaps to keep them from binding against the spacebar. Works perfectly now.


      Wow, what a great mod.  I'm in need of using a right-Alt key regularly, so this mod giving me both Alt keys near the space bar might be perfect.  Thanks for all the information about this!

      Offline Soarer

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      Model F - Gimme back my Big Backspace Mod
      « Reply #160 on: Sat, 06 November 2010, 13:55:54 »
      I'm in the process of modding my UK layout AT model F. So far I've added keys at each end of the space bar and put in some extra hammers. Just the space bar stablizer bits still to do... and then of course remappings.

      So I thought I'd list here the scancodes generated by each extra pad, as read by Windows using a native PS/2 port:

      code - USB code - description - location
      0x57 - 44  - F11 - lower pad under keypad '+'
      0x70 - 88 - Int'l 2 (Katakana/Hiragana) - right hand pad under Left Shift
      0x71 - n/a - VK_OEM_RESET - left hand pad under Space
      0x72 - n/a - unassigned - right hand pad under Space
      0x73 - 87 - Int'l 1 (Ro) - left hand pad under Right Shift
      0x74 - n/a - unassigned - left hand pad under Enter
      0x75 - n/a - unassigned - upper pad under Enter
      0x7C - n/a - do not use - left hand pad under Insert

      The USB codes and descriptions are (mostly*) taken from a Microsoft document called "USB HID to PS/2 Scan Code Translation Table". For those keys that have USB codes, some PS/2 to USB converters use them, others ignore them. All the converters I have (except for the blue cube) ignore the keys that have no USB code. The blue cube helpfully remaps 0x75 to 0x2B (the code for the key left of backspace), so that's perfect if you're only planning to do the big backspace mod as per the article.

      Going by that, I expect that no standard PS/2 to USB converter will pass all the codes through, so I plan to make my own...

      (* VK_OEM_RESET is a virtual key definition taken from a Windows header file)
      « Last Edit: Sat, 06 November 2010, 13:59:24 by Soarer »

      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #161 on: Sat, 06 November 2010, 19:20:07 »
      Thanks, I have those written down somewhere, but I never did get around to posting them on Geek Hack.
      Kiibohd

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      Offline JBert

      • Posts: 764
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      « Reply #162 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 06:27:15 »
      Quote from: Soarer;243454
      So I thought I'd list here the scancodes generated by each extra pad, as read by Windows using a native PS/2 port:
      Thanks for that, I've added a link to your post in the conclusion of the article.
      IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

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      Offline bettablue

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      « Reply #163 on: Tue, 08 February 2011, 22:02:05 »
      This whole thing looks too easy.  So, I don't misunderstand you.  Windows will see the new key assignments automattically?  Is it because the keyboard was already mapped to that configuration at the factory somehow?  

      BTW...  The pictures all came through for me.  Guess I need pretty pictures in order for me to follow directions.  Hmmm.
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      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #164 on: Wed, 09 February 2011, 00:21:52 »
      Heh, "sometimes" :P

      Windows Rant:
      Who's the retard at Windows that decided it was sane to reinstall a driver every time to plug your device.
      Kiibohd

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      Offline HaaTa

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      « Reply #165 on: Wed, 09 February 2011, 00:48:28 »
      And that is the reason why I use Linux :P.
      Kiibohd

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      Offline ch_123

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      « Reply #166 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 18:53:56 »
      Is there anyone who has done this who wants to send their mini backspaces my way?

      Offline ironman31

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      « Reply #167 on: Thu, 23 June 2011, 22:13:35 »
      Just for reference, I had to use sharpkeys to change the key bindings for the |\ key when I did this mod. The new placement of the key was sending the 0x0075 scan code
      Keyboards:
      IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



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      Offline wcass

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      « Reply #168 on: Thu, 26 April 2012, 21:10:32 »
      i just finished logging what i did to update my AT - including step-by-step on adding and using the extra two pads left and right of the space bar. this mod was a lot of fun.
      http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:25919
      [ Guests cannot view attachments ] 49222[/ATTACH]