Author Topic: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus  (Read 10381 times)

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Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Ortho/dox Blues
A DSS/DSA keycap set with an Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
Last Updated: 19 Nov 2019

Important Links:


Introduction & Origins
This is my first-ever Interest Check, and I'm very new to this process.  I'm a software developer from North Carolina, and I'm an amateur board game designer. After buying an Ergodox to replace my MS Ergo keyboard, I found myself going further and further down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole.

Ortho/dox Blues itself began as a pun. I wanted to make a sculpted keycap set with high Ortho & Ergodox compatibility, and I knew I wanted to use some variation of the portmanteau "Orthodox" in the name.  Initially, I began building a set using liturgical colors from the Eastern Orthodox church, but eventually I landed on a fairly simple blue gradient design.

Color gradient, outdoor lightingColor gradient, indoor lighting

About the Profile
I currently use DSS Dolch on my Ergodox, and I've grown to really love the texture and sculpting of DSS keycaps.  I noticed that there were very few DSS group buys on this forum or on Reddit, so it seemed like a great new market to experiment with.

DSS keycaps are doubleshot ABS plastic, and they're produced by Signature Plastics.  DSS keycap tops are spherical and have a slightly rough texture, almost identical to DSA keycaps. Unlike DSA, DSS is a sculpted profile; the overall positioning and angle of each row in DSS is a bit closer to that of the OEM or Cherry profile.

So why is DSA part of this set?  It has to do with the bottom row.  As part of the survey I ran a few weeks ago, I found that the Ortho/Ergo audience is pretty evenly split between those who prefer a flatter bottom row (like SA R3) versus those who prefer an angled bottom row (like GMK R4).  Because the tops and overall shapes of DSA and DSS caps are very similar, and because the DSA uniform profile is highly versatile for vertical caps, it made sense to me that providing an option to mix the two profiles might be a pragmatic approach for an Ortho/Ergo keycap set.

DSS with DSA as bottom rowDSS with DSS R4 as bottom row


About the Kits
First and foremost, this set is meant to be Ortho/Ergo focused, but not Ortho/Ergo exclusive.  That does mean that the kit design is a bit upside-down from what you might see elsewhere. Instead of setting up kits such that TKL users buy just one kit while everyone else buys add-ons, here the Ortho and Ergo users can get away with buying just the Core kit, while it's the row-staggered keyboards that need additional kits.

The Core kit is similar to what other Interest Checks might call an Assembly kit: it provides enough keycaps to provide baseline coverage for a wide range of Ortho and Ergo layouts (Ergodox, Iris, Sol, Ergodash, etc.).

REMINDER
All images of kits are just simple renders, charts, and simulations.  The font used will be SP's standard Gorton Modified, which is not exactly the same as what is rendered.  Kit contents are not final and are subject to change.

Kits & Descriptions on Imgur

Core Kit


Mainstream ModsNumpad

Compatibility BlanksExtra Blanks


Typist Kit


1u Legends1.5u Legends


International KitNovelties (Work in Progress)


Proposed Novelty Artwork
1.5u Novelty1u Novelty




To-do List
  • Finalize Vendor for US (DONE)
    MK Ultra will be acting as my vendor for the US.
  • Finalize Vendor for Europe
    I have spoken with a potential EU-based vendor as well, but that agreement has not been finalized
  • Estimate Kit Pricing and MOQ (MOSTLY DONE)
    I have been in consultation with Signature Plastics and MK Ultra to estimate kit pricing and determine MOQ for each kit.  The core kit will have a higher MOQ of 150, while other kits will vary (most at 50).
  • Finalize Kit Design (MOSTLY DONE)
    Based on survey results and estimated pricing, several of the original kits in the IC have been revised or merged.
  • Finalize Novelties (2/3 DONE)
    The artwork for the Novelties needs to be finished.  Two of three have been designed.  The third, currently labeled "peacock feather" in the thumbnail, may not end up being a peacock feather at all.
  • Photorealistic Renders (Optional)
    I haven't found anyone who can do photorealistic renders of DSS keycaps yet, but I'd be willing to pay for someone to take that task on.  The DSS caps shouldn't be too hard to simulate using DSA as a base, but I realized I was way out of my league when trying to do so myself in Blender.
  • Get Samples (Optional)
    If photorealistic renders aren't a realistic option, then photographs of the actual keycaps could be!  Assuming this IC goes well, I'll be in contact with SP to see if a subset of the core set can be run as a one-off for pictures.

KLE-Render Examples of Potential Layouts

Baseline Ergodox
(requires only the Core kit)


Boardwalk
(baseline requires only Core, this example includes 1.5u Legends and Novelties)


TKL with ISO
(requires Core, Mainstream Mods, and ISO)


Planck with Workman Layout
(requires Core and Typist kits)


UT47.2
(requires Core and Compatibility Blanks)


« Last Edit: Tue, 18 February 2020, 09:21:27 by NoPunIn10Did »

Offline nasp

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 25 September 2019, 12:49:15 »
I'm always happy to try out new profiles so count me in  :thumb:


Offline piit79

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 25 September 2019, 13:58:16 »
An ortho-focused set, nice! It's a pain being second-class citizen all the time ;)

I love the gradient. KAM Aquanaut was trying a similar thing (just upside down), but it's on hold.

A few comments:
* Hard to judge the colours accurately, but isn't the lightest bottom shade a bit too light for an even gradient? (Looking again, probably not :) )
* Why is the TKL nav cluster monochromatic? Compatibility? It looks a bit strange not having a full gradient.
* The mixture of DSS and DSA is interesting, but not sure it's the best choice - the DSA profile does seem to look a bit different. How about using a different DSS row for the bottom row? R2 could work well.

Curious about the price - the ortho base could hopefully be reasonably priced.
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 September 2019, 14:02:09 by piit79 »

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 25 September 2019, 14:22:55 »
An ortho-focused set, nice! It's a pain being second-class citizen all the time ;)
I certainly share in that frustration.  Ergodox is like a third-class citizen; most GBs barely even bother with a kit for us.
* Hard to judge the colours accurately, but isn't the lightest bottom shade a bit too light for an even gradient? (Looking again, probably not :) )
I went through lots of configurations of the stock ABS colors, and this is the best I could put together.  There was at least one configuration that was a tad smoother, but it was considerably more boring.
* Why is the TKL nav cluster monochromatic? Compatibility? It looks a bit strange not having a full gradient.
Compatibility, yes.  There are a lot of different keyboard configurations that put those in totally different places, so I thought the simplest thing would be to have them all stay as uniform DSA and be colored accordingly.  Personally, I plan to use some of those nav keys in the thumb clusters of my Ergodox.  Now if it turns out that there are lot more TKL or fullsize users interested that would prefer those keys to be sculpted and styled like the other rows, I'll adjust accordingly.
* The mixture of DSS and DSA is interesting, but not sure it's the best choice - the DSA profile does seem to look a bit different. How about using a different DSS row for the bottom row? R2 could work well.
The photograph may not do it justice simply because (1) that blue keycap might not have actually come from SP's official DSA molds (2) it's made of PBT rather than ABS, and (3) it's blue.  However, I can attest to DSA and DSS profiles being a really good mix with one another.  DSS R2 was something I considered, but the 3 deg. angle is just enough to make those caps feel out of place in certain locations where you'd expect something more uniform (like vertical keys).
Curious about the price - the ortho base could hopefully be reasonably priced.
Me too.  I'm hoping that the base kit is really reasonable.  Just have to get enough folks interested.
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 September 2019, 14:26:57 by NoPunIn10Did »

Offline Lyle88

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 26 September 2019, 03:31:29 »
I haven't even really taken any notice of DSS profile until now, and it looks like exactly what I wish SA was - after eventually receiving my first SA kit and finding it to be far too high of a profile

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Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 26 September 2019, 09:40:00 »
I haven't even really taken any notice of DSS profile until now, and it looks like exactly what I wish SA was - after eventually receiving my first SA kit and finding it to be far too high of a profile
Yep.  I purchased an inexpensive SA grab bag from r/mechmarket, and I'm glad I did.  It gave me enough caps to build a very silly-looking numpad, and it let me realize that SA is a very pretty profile that's not always terribly practical.  The keycaps are very high, and the angles are pretty harsh.  I might still use it from time to time, but it's not my favorite.

I ended up getting DSS Dolch from PimpMyKeyboard because at the time it was the only sculpted & labeled keycap set that was Ergodox-compatible.  I'm glad I did.  I love the texture of the keys, and it's more comfortable to type on than the uniform DSA set I'd used prior.

I don't think DSS is going to be a perfect profile for everyone, but I think there are a lot of DSA fans out in the ether that haven't yet experienced the joys of DSS's sculpted profile.

Offline RominRonin

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 26 September 2019, 21:25:48 »
This set ticks many of my boxes, if the typist set makes moq then I'm in.

Re: the bottom row, I prefer the dss profile, since you can flip it to make an even more comfortable bottom row.

I think the dark blue 1u keys on the ergodox thumb clusters should be the same colour as the r4 blue instead.

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Offline harlekein

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 27 September 2019, 03:26:10 »
Can you please consider including two blank thumb 1.5 thumb keys to ortho. Several split ergo boards use it.

As for the novelties, something sky/water themed could be nice instead of color names. "FLY", "ASCEND", "DIVE", "SINK", "SWIM". Just an idea.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 27 September 2019, 05:58:12 »
I think the dark blue 1u keys on the ergodox thumb clusters should be the same colour as the r4 blue instead.
That’s just me putting together an example demo. The Core set comes with enough blank 1u caps such that people can put together the configuration they prefer in the thumb clusters.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 27 September 2019, 06:00:39 »
Can you please consider including two blank thumb 1.5 thumb keys to ortho. Several split ergo boards use it.

As for the novelties, something sky/water themed could be nice instead of color names. "FLY", "ASCEND", "DIVE", "SINK", "SWIM". Just an idea.
The “Core Ergo Blanks” or Novelties should be able to provide the 1.5u keycaps needed.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 20:36:32 »
Here are some updates:
  • There have been 46 unique responses in the first week; I'm hoping that means that by the end of the Interest Check period we'll have a small-but-still-sufficient customer base for the eventual Group Buy.
  • I very likely have a US-based vendor to partner with, but we're still finalizing that agreement.
  • I have contacted one potential EU-based vendor that I thought would be a good match, but I haven't heard back yet.
  • I am in communication with Signature Plastics to get pricing/volume quotes (and to estimate scheduling for the GB).
  • As I suspected, one of the most popular optional kits is the Typist Kit. Ortho and Ergo users seem to have a fairly high number of Dvorak & Colemak enthusiasts!
  • Based on a suggestion made on the Discord Server, I have added a Blank Alphas kit to the survey.
  • So far, almost all respondents seem content with US or UK layouts. I have gotten requests to support Brazilian and Japanese keyboard layouts.
    • Brazil is already supported in the planned NorDePort kit, but it's likely that set will be reduced considerably in size if there's no actual Scandinavian or German interest.
    • I've added a Japanese JIS Punctuation kit to support Japan.
    • I suspect I need to market this keycap set on different sites to reach a more global market and find users for all the international kits I put together.

Offline psxndc

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 31 October 2019, 02:31:58 »
[insert Chappelle meme]So uh, got any of them GB updates?
Ortho. Always.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 04 November 2019, 09:03:08 »
Hey, sorry.  Have been very busy with work.

I'll have an official post probably later this week, but in short:
- I have a US vendor signed on.
- I have a probable EU-based vendor too.
- I've made significant revisions to the kits planned to help balance out prices a bit.
- I am still working on novelty designs.

Most importantly, we're currently targeting the GB for January.

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 04 November 2019, 23:58:20 »
Looking forward to the GB!

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Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 12:33:39 »
I've made significant updates to the first post.  It now reflects the most up-to-date information available for all kits.

I have a US vendor now: MK Ultra!  He has been very helpful during this process. 

We are still finalizing pricing, though I believe I have calculated a reasonable MOQ for each kit.  My current aim is to ensure all but a couple of kits will be priced between 0.70 and 1.50 USD per keycap (before sales tax and shipping).

Offline piit79

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 13:34:47 »
Glad to hear there's progress. Really looking forward to this set! There is too many GMK sets, SA is a bit too high, so excited for something new :)

Offline piit79

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 13:34:51 »
Glad to hear there's progress. Really looking forward to this set! There is too many GMK sets, SA is a bit too high, so excited for something new :)

Offline tex_live_utility

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 13:50:54 »
Not a fan of gradient. But I'd be in for a simple white on blue DSS set.
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Offline psxndc

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 14:14:43 »
Not a fan of gradient. But I'd be in for a simple white on blue DSS set.

https://pimpmykeyboard.com/new-dss-tecla-keyset/

Gets you halfway there.
Ortho. Always.

Offline tex_live_utility

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 16:31:27 »
Not a fan of gradient. But I'd be in for a simple white on blue DSS set.

https://pimpmykeyboard.com/new-dss-tecla-keyset/

Gets you halfway there.

Yep, sadly the forced accent numrow (and uniform-color F row) kind of kills it for me :'(
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Offline Rayndalf

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 17:38:28 »
Yeah, Tecla has pretty terrible options color wise (no WoB or BoW modifiers, just BoW alphas and white on red or blue modifiers :confused:

Even a straight black on white kit would be pretty neat, but the gradient in this set isn't bad (especially for stock colors), but it might be too busy for smaller boards.

The colors of Devlin Pennine is basically the 9009 of ortho/40s, so its only a matter of time before someone borrows that colorway.

Offline equalunique

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 22 November 2019, 20:45:34 »
Core Kit and Typist Kit for me.

After trying out DSS Dolch, I realized that the decision to offer DSA bottorm row is a good one. For DSS Dolch's ortho kits, PMK gave people the option of a R3 or R4 bottom row. Both of these feel inadequate for thumb keys, although they are pretty good for other fingers. The only tolerable space keys I could find were from the ErgoDox kit. Those are vertical 2u keys, which are much closer to DSA, but aren't really standard at all.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 27 November 2019, 09:19:22 »
Core Kit and Typist Kit for me.

After trying out DSS Dolch, I realized that the decision to offer DSA bottorm row is a good one. For DSS Dolch's ortho kits, PMK gave people the option of a R3 or R4 bottom row. Both of these feel inadequate for thumb keys, although they are pretty good for other fingers. The only tolerable space keys I could find were from the ErgoDox kit. Those are vertical 2u keys, which are much closer to DSA, but aren't really standard at all.

Yup.  I ended up kitting out my standalone numpad with DSS Dolch too, and the 2u zero key was uncomfortably sharp.  Luckily PMK still sold DSA Dolch as well, so I bought that numpad too and swapped out the zero.  It isn't quite as pretty and uniform, but it's considerably more comfortable.

So I'm treating DSA as the default bottom row now with these kits, with DSS R4 as an option for the 1u bottom row keys.

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 11:42:05 »
I've been working on the novelty designs.  Here are two drafts of two potential novelties, each shown using four of the five possible background/legend color schemes:




Offline piit79

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 12:08:09 »
I've been working on the novelty designs.  Here are two drafts of two potential novelties, each shown using four of the five possible background/legend color schemes:

Orthogrammikó/ergonomikó? :) Looks interesting, I like the greek alphabet. But I think it might be too busy, too much text on a small area. Perhaps try just "ortho". I know, not as cool... ;)

Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 17 December 2019, 10:21:46 »
I've been working on the novelty designs.  Here are two drafts of two potential novelties, each shown using four of the five possible background/legend color schemes:

Orthogrammikó/ergonomikó? :) Looks interesting, I like the greek alphabet. But I think it might be too busy, too much text on a small area. Perhaps try just "ortho". I know, not as cool... ;)

The current Ortho one is pretty busy.  How does this look?



With multiple color schemes:


Offline nasp

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 17 December 2019, 13:50:01 »
Novelty caps are fun and I especially enjoy Greek so I'm all for it.


Offline piit79

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 17 December 2019, 13:58:14 »
Looks cool!

Offline PheonixStarr

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 17 December 2019, 14:01:09 »
Very interested in the DSS—and for ortho! Can't wait.

Offline StormyMonday

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Re: [IC] Ortho/dox Blues: DSS/DSA keycaps with Ortho/Ergo compatibility focus
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 02 January 2020, 08:46:33 »
WOW! First class citizen for a change!!!
This set looks very promising. I particularly like the Typist set. I have one observation, so bear with me while I think out loud for a moment. I like the low profile option for the bottom row. But, since many split ergo boards have thumb switches rotated at odd angles, would the G20 profile be a better choice for the bottom row/thumb cluster switches? Just a thought ...

EDIT:
Never mind. Since G20 are PBT, this will jack with the texture match and color options.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 January 2020, 08:59:52 by StormyMonday »