Author Topic: Dat m1 pro /max  (Read 2221 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Dat m1 pro /max
« on: Wed, 20 October 2021, 09:02:07 »
Like wha............... 

That gpu can compete with a 100w 3080, not a 160w 3080, but i mean, it's getn' there.

IF apple did gaming, and they probably will at some point, just side-gig a studio, and release a moba/fps/gotcha,  run a $10 million tournament,  boom, there's your base.

Right now, they're after the adults as a luxury brand,  but once they WIN IT, they'll be coming after the filthy gamers.

People keep raggn' on the software, they're a big company, can compel ports, or heck just BUY the big softwares..


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Offline MIGHTY CHICKEN

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 20 October 2021, 12:25:08 »
macbook pog
but new keyboard with the black infill between keys look ugo
kinda am fine with notch though

Offline Shapey Fiend

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 20 October 2021, 13:44:29 »
I look forward to this performance filtering down to more reasonably priced computers.. which probably won't happen. D'oh!

Apple make approximately 12 billion dollars a year from iPhone app store games so I don't think pursuing the niche of graphics accelerated PC games is very high on their set of priorities.
« Last Edit: Wed, 20 October 2021, 13:47:28 by Shapey Fiend »

Offline yui

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 25 October 2021, 07:18:56 »
the thing is with gaming is that x86 is decent everywhere, it is heavy too all hell so it will need more power/time to do even the most optimized task but will also run less optimized code rather fast, while ARM need optimized code not to run slow, and well, games are not often very well optimized, especially big budget.
and modern x86 does have tons of gaming/3D instructions that you will not find in a reduced instruction set so can make it faster for that, although apple could maybe offload some of that to their GPU...
it is possible but i do not see a world with apple at the top of the PC foodchain, too many limitations, to many breaks in compatibility, too low quality control. although if someone could build an M1 competitor that is more open (looking at IBM for example) that could be the ticket.
oh and apple have a very long history of using RISC in PC and changing architectures (68k -> PPC -> ix86 -> ARM) so their switch to ARM being rather painless makes sense, not many others do. i doubt that MS will make a good switch though, if their history of switching architectures is any indication.
and a last problem, would any of you switch to BSD/Darwin/MacOS? linux to BSD is already confusing but from windows i would think it would be a pain.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 26 October 2021, 03:59:12 »
Doesn't matter how many cores, or compute cores or whatever that GPU has, if it doesn't support the hardware and software protocols (DX11, dx12, ray tracing,etc.) it will only get you so far.

Then there's the fact that it's on ARM, so unless you're going to play Android games or use an emulator to play PS games it's worthlss to gamers. Even if you install Windows, the games will still not work because Windows doesn't know how to translate x86 to arm, much less this GPU. The irony is it will run better using Linux and Wine than in Windows, thought not very well, and god help you if you throw Wayland into the mix, and you will probably want that for the D.E. due to the screen scaling/resolution.

Think of this as the workstation grade laptop it's meant to be.
Don't get me wrong, I would love one of these, running Mac (or better yet, Linux), but you really need to ignore the GPU, yes, it's powerful, but it's only really useful for raw GPU power, things such as A.I., photo editing, video rendering, but not gaming. I can't wait for these or better yet, the next-gen Air to hit the mid level used market.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 26 October 2021, 08:48:30 »
Here's why I see gaming different.   Only a handful of games, dominate the majority of the user base.

All apple has to do to crack it, is just port those few popular ones to its platform, OR, write first party clones, F2P, bam userbase. Kids who play games don't care.  It's the 30-40yr olds arguing over League vs Dota.

With Linux enthusiasts and steam pushing ahead,  it's only a matter of time.

Offline yui

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 26 October 2021, 09:59:22 »
Here's why I see gaming different.   Only a handful of games, dominate the majority of the user base.

All apple has to do to crack it, is just port those few popular ones to its platform, OR, write first party clones, F2P, bam userbase. Kids who play games don't care.  It's the 30-40yr olds arguing over League vs Dota.

With Linux enthusiasts and steam pushing ahead,  it's only a matter of time.

f2p does not make a clone a success, plenty f2p games fail to get any player base, clones get it even worse, although with marketing apple could get a upper hand, but then get sued for IP infringement. so yeah only porting would make sence, but then what is you demographic?
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 26 October 2021, 10:39:55 »
Anyway. Several popular Windows games seem to run fine, with good performance on the Apple M1 under emulation. Apple seems to done a very good job at x86-64 emulation, whereas Microsoft's emulation appears to be still in beta.

Part of Apple's success is however a non-standard hardware extension in the M1 processor, making it use intel's TSO (total store order) memory access model instead of ARM's relaxed memory model. This is significant for correct emulation of multithreaded x86-64 programs: without that extension the ARM code would have needed to contain many explicit memory barriers which could slow the program down.
Microsoft's emulation team has a challenge here ...

ARM need optimized code not to run slow, and well, games are not often very well optimized, especially big budget.
Are you referring to in-order vs. out-of-order execution? That's not much of an issue.
"Big" ARM cores on even cheaper smartphones these days run out-of-order. All cores in Apple M1 are out-of-order cores. And software pipelining has been mainstream in compilers for decades.

The biggest issue in optimising game engines these days might instead be about matching memory access patterns to each CPU's particular cache hierarchy. And I think the best engine developers at big game studios are aware, and on top of these issues.

and modern x86 does have tons of gaming/3D instructions that you will not find in a reduced instruction set so can make it faster for that, although apple could maybe offload some of that to their GPU...
SIMD instructions are part of ARM's base 64-bit instruction set, and I find that ISA to be more feature-complete and capable than Intel'ls.
Intel's SSE/2/SE2/4/AVX/2/whatever is a mess IMHO, and programming for it requires many tricks and workarounds in my experience. Also, software for Windows is often compiled to the older SSE2 as a lowest common denominator even though most gamers have CPUs that do support AVX2.
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 October 2021, 10:45:16 by Findecanor »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 26 October 2021, 15:02:59 »
Here's why I see gaming different.   Only a handful of games, dominate the majority of the user base.
While it may seem that way on the surface, there's no chance to ever play your old games again.
Some games are replayed a LOT, especially single player, there is still TONS of people still playing Fallout 4 and New Vegas, Mass Effect, GTA San Andreas, and more. That also doesn't fix the other software issues like CAD, just throwing a few top games on this is not going to win over the market. Apple has had top tier games in the past and it was a mere blip.

You need at least several major game studios onboard and committed and that means Apple would need to pump CONSIDERABLE dollars to make this work, not just on their side side.
Nvidia, AMD, Intel, Dolby, and Microsoft all throw money and assistance at developers to make games run better. Could they? Yes, but they will be starting almost from ground zero. Yes, they can pull from Linux, it will help, but MacOS X was built on BSD and has migrated almost entirely away from it. Much of it still works, but it doesn't mean it's a straight shot, especially when you start getting into drivers and hardware.  And it still offers no incentive to the game studios to bother.


Another thing Apple will absolutely have to do is change how they handle system changes and drivers.
There's talk on Slashdot right now about this, someone mentioned it and some blew it off as never having seen an update cause issues. There's a reason some printer drivers have one for MacOs 10.4, 10.5, 10.6, etc... Because they don't all work. Firewalls are also a massive pain in the neck on Mac, Little Snitch in particular can usually can only handle one or two versions before being shut out by Apple's changes.  There's also Karabiner which was essential to many to remap keys, again, shut out by security changes on Mac (Karabiner Elements is, or at least was not the same and took years to get there). It was even worse on Nvidia gpus, on those it wasn't even major updates, even minor updates were breaking the drivers. granted, some of this was due to it not being Apple approved... Seriously, wtf. "But they don't need drivers..." Anti-cheat. Any update can break the anti-cheat systems. Can you imagine 2077 getting locked out on day 2 of release and Apple taking 4 months to fix it?

This is something people also do not get about Mac.
It's a VERY, VERY closed ecosystem and they steer it exactly how THEY please, you already know this, but it;s so much worse than people realize. "Oh, we locked you out with an update, oh well". "Oh we forgot to approve your app for our store, oh well., sorry *shrug*  They had reviewed the Floatplane app MONTHS earlier, they just never bothered to approve it and let it on the store. When Nvidia leaked they were going to be the new GPU, Apple immediately cut them and reworked the systems to cut Nvidia out and don't forget the Iphone 4 debacle where they had the nerve to tell customers they were "holding it wrong".  Everything is Apple's way or the highway, and they aren't always in any hurry to help anyone but themselves. This sort of attitude isn't going to go over well with game studios when they drop a billion dollar game like 2077. "Oh sorry we did review your app and it's approved we just left you on a shelf for 4 months missing your release window" Or worse still, they denied it for some weird reason. Imagine pouring all that money to put the new BF or COD on Mac and then gets denied listing or gets stuck on a shelf.  When you have people willing to pay $5k to $8k for a GPU, do you think those people will be happy if your game is delayed due to Apple just not giving a darn? This may be why some cad programs are not found on Mac.

Now, you can say this won't really hurt the bottom line, it may not, at least at first. A push into the arena would bring increased sales even, but as these issues pile up, do you think those people will come back for another Mac after? Absolutely not and it will be another generation before they can attempt to recover that ground again. It has happened before, it can happen again.


By the way,
They had a lock on the software side before, and while they did change cpus, they were still at the mercy of whoever made their chips and those companies ensured some stability and compatibity from codecs and firmware down to the socket itself, that's no longer the case.  They control the entire machine from one end to the other all the way down to the silicone and pcb (scary thought considering the T2 and other issues). If they decide to purge some hardware enhanced codec for size or something and your program relied on it, too bad. Just look at Iphones and Ipads, especially older ones if you want to see where this is heading. they keep saying they won't lockdown the software, they don't really have to when they can lock down the hardware to this extent. "You got your 4 years of updates, buy a new machine. it still works? Not anymore!"
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 26 October 2021, 15:05:38 »
SIMD instructions are part of ARM's base 64-bit instruction set, and I find that ISA to be more feature-complete and capable than Intel'ls.
Intel's SSE/2/SE2/4/AVX/2/whatever is a mess IMHO, and programming for it requires many tricks and workarounds in my experience. Also, software for Windows is often compiled to the older SSE2 as a lowest common denominator even though most gamers have CPUs that do support AVX2.
You don't know how much of that made it into or could even have been locked out of the Apple chip.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 27 October 2021, 10:39:04 »
That tightly controlled integration between hardware and software is the only way they can make the kind of battery times that's happening.

I believe overall this will push microsoft towards doing the same thing. Otherwise without specialized processors windows probably can not be tweaked to the performance metrics mac is setting on mobile.

So, this gate thing, it is problematic for Linux-Warriors but it may well become the standard model.

Fingers crossed for what AMD will be able to do on 5nm,  but the battery life on macs is wack...

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 27 October 2021, 15:07:09 »
SIMD instructions are part of ARM's base 64-bit instruction set, and I find that ISA to be more feature-complete and capable than Intel'ls.
You don't know how much of that made it into or could even have been locked out of the Apple chip.
SIMD instructions are standard in AArch64 / ARMv8-A. The SIMD unit is also used for scalar floating point maths.

It is in the older 32-bit ARM architecture that a SIMD unit is optional.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 27 October 2021, 15:27:51 »
I recently realized all these material trappings and cool new tech is totally meaningless if you cannot afford any of it any way, so now **** like new gpu's hold almost zero appeal.
I may as well be looking at yachts.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 28 October 2021, 04:20:27 »
That tightly controlled integration between hardware and software is the only way they can make the kind of battery times that's happening.
No it's not.
ARM has always been more efficient but only on loads specifically designed for it and to take advantage of it.
Intel has always engineered for the server space, and for a long time didn't care about efficiency, you were going to buy it no matter what. From there the technology trickles down to desktops and laptops. So they are always at a disadvantage.


As for Apple battery times, that's quite simple and you can even get close to it with your PC.
When on battery, Windows limits max cpu power to about 50% max, Apple limits it to 30% max. Drop your CPU max down to 30% and oh, gee wow suddenly your battery life starts to be much closer. Yes, it will run like garbage hence the 50%, but it will match on runtime. Mac is REALLY well optimized for low ram and cpu, as is Safari, which is the other half of the equation.

Put Windows at 30% max then browse the web, use Mac with the same browser and your battery life will nearly be identical for surfing the internet, at least Intel mac vs PC. It will be a bit more skewed with ARM, but only about 10-20%, which I admit is significant but pretty much anything beyond 8-10 hours doesn't really matter much to most people and the higher you go the more wildly it varies depending what you do so take any of those numbers with a HUUUGE grain of salt.

As further proof, putting Windows or Linux on a Chromebook causes battery life to tank to Intel levels. Again, just showing it's largely the OS, not so much the processor.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 28 October 2021, 04:52:02 »
SIMD instructions are part of ARM's base 64-bit instruction set, and I find that ISA to be more feature-complete and capable than Intel'ls.
You don't know how much of that made it into or could even have been locked out of the Apple chip.
SIMD instructions are standard in AArch64 / ARMv8-A. The SIMD unit is also used for scalar floating point maths.
Yes, a lot is in the base chip, I get that.
My point is that Apple has total control if it as soon as you get beyond the base chip (that's the point of ARM), to the extent that it allows them to disable those features even if it's in the base cpu. If Apple has no need for a feature they may decide it's just allowing cross compatibility (which they hate) or sucking down battery. Did they, can they, will they? We have no idea. My point is they can do whatever they want and ignore every prior standard because they have total control from end to end, don't count on anything.

By the way, this also means Mac is just one very tiny step away from being just as fenced in as the Iphone and Ipad, all that requires is a setting in the OS. That setting is already there, it's just not hard locked.
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 28 October 2021, 06:24:46 »
I only see Apple products as turn-key starter production gear, that's pretty much it.  Sure the new ones have amazing specs and all, but what upgrade and repair path do they have?  My guess is little to none by pricing it to the point of it being more beneficial, financially, to just buy a new one or the parts are non-existent to non-apple certified partners.

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D



Offline Leslieann

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 29 October 2021, 01:53:43 »
I only see Apple products as turn-key starter production gear, that's pretty much it.  Sure the new ones have amazing specs and all, but what upgrade and repair path do they have?  My guess is little to none by pricing it to the point of it being more beneficial, financially, to just buy a new one or the parts are non-existent to non-apple certified partners.

Heh, Apple cert. partners...
They are allowed to do screen and battery changes that's about the extent of what they're allowed to do, anything else gets sent to Apple. Trying to do more will get you tossed out of the program. Louis Rossman looked into it and it's a terrible program, difficult to get in, extremely limited on what you can do and also ties your hands in other ways as well.

The guy working at the cell phone kiosk on the mall has greater freedom to fix your Apple products than Apple partners do. One step over the line and that whole segment of your business evaporates overnight so they tend to play it extra safe. If you can avoid it, for anything other than screen or battery take it straight to Apple or don't bother, the partner is just a middle man to get in the way and delay things a few extra days.

That is IF Apple will even fix it. They can be petty jerks on that front as well, like when they refused to repair a screen for Linus Tech Tips, even when they were willing to pay they refused. They had to go outside the Apple ecosystem to repair a brand new system, no one at Apple or their partners would help them.
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Offline Shapey Fiend

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 29 October 2021, 13:15:14 »
I've sent laptops to Lenovo and Dell for official repair within warranty after suffering with hardware faults. One was a graphics card problem. The other was sound. Neither supplier actually fixed the problems. Now I just assume any computer product I buy will last a few years then buy a new one not much point in upgrading/repairing them they're all made of the same cheap components. Of course this means I'm not likely to buy anything with an Apple markup because many of their components are cheap and nasty too despite the 3k price point.



Offline Leslieann

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Re: Dat m1 pro /max
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 29 October 2021, 22:49:52 »
I've sent laptops to Lenovo and Dell for official repair within warranty after suffering with hardware faults. One was a graphics card problem. The other was sound. Neither supplier actually fixed the problems. Now I just assume any computer product I buy will last a few years then buy a new one not much point in upgrading/repairing them they're all made of the same cheap components. Of course this means I'm not likely to buy anything with an Apple markup because many of their components are cheap and nasty too despite the 3k price point.
A lot of companies use clearing houses, hired out "farms" that do work for multiple companies. HP does it, so does Best Buy's 3rd party warranties. Many of these places just have other"spares" or cannibalized systems they pull parts from, the people have little training and they get paid per system, not for quality and it shows. So long as it looks like it works, ship it! Also those "On Site Repair" is also just whoever they can hire locally. Unless you have a repair contract with a company who has actual techs, you're getting a random person.

Personally, I pretty much refuse to buy new laptops or buy a desktop, in fact of all the laptops and desktops I've owned I've only bought one desktop (my first) and 3 new laptops in my entire life (1 display model and 2 low end netbooks). Not because I'm cheap, I mean, I can be, but pre-built desktops are almost universally garbage and laptops are SUPER hit and miss. By buying used you get it at a massively discounted price, especially corporate grade, and you can look up reliability and problem reports prior to purchase. Let someone else deal with the issues.  As for repairs, Google. You can often do it yourself for less and better if you just take a little time, most used corporate laptops you can fix almost anything on them for $40 (other than screen and mobo) and usually in an hour or two.

This will probably be a hot take for many but historically, Apple laptops have mostly been garbage. Between battery issues, GPU issues, butterfly issues... Doesn't leave a lot does it? Why the love by fans? The warranty.  Apple does take care of customers, but there's a massive catch these people don't like to admit or realize, they paid for it.  "We can just replace it for $800" Imagine Dell told you that, would you be happy?  Apple works if you're willing to throw money at the problem, if not it's no better or probably worse than other manufacturers.


And your point about them being the same, yes but also very much no.
They use the same cpu and chipset but beyond that it's up to them, how thick it is, routing, mosfets, cooling, PSU, it does matter. On laptops you have all of that but also hinges, hinges are one of the biggest sources of problems on laptops and on some if the hinge fails it will destroy the screen. The charging port is also a MAJOR fail point, 99% of the time if the port has issues it was soldered direct to the motherboard and the joints failed, better ones use jumper wires to de-stress the mainboard. This is why Apple went back Magsafe, type-C has no way to de-stress the connection and I will guarantee you it has been an issue, USB charging is not the greatness people think it is. Then you have just quality of assembly, fit and finish, trackpads which come in a range of good and bad same for keyboards...
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