Author Topic: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard  (Read 14304 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
"Santa GH60" Gateron HHKB Layout Gateron Yellow White LED Keyboard

THE LISTING
Recently, I stumbled upon an intriguing eBay listing:

HHKB Mechanical Keyboard DIY Kit Customized Set SANTA GH60 PCB+Gateron Switch
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HHKB-Mechanical-Keyboard-DIY-Kit-Customized-Set-SANTA-GH60-PCB-Gateron-Switch-/182180146267?hash=item2a6ac86c5b:g:tgEAAOSwQaJXQvsa

The current price for the kit is $127 and for a fee of $10, you can get the keyboard fully assembled with choices from 7 options for Gateron switches, 7 options for LEDs, and 2 options (black or white) for case color. The default layout is HHKB Pro 2 with white lasered PBT keycaps to match. However, the keyboard is completely programmable. Moreover, shipping from Hong Kong is free.

REASONS FOR BUYING
This listing caught my attention for several reasons. My favorite form factor is 60%, my favorite layout is HHKB, and although my least favorite switches have been Cherry mx and clones, I had been hearing good things about Gateron Yellow switches. Deciding that the price was right for taking a risk, I placed my order -- black case, yellow Gateron switches, white LEDS, and HHKB Pro 2 layout. I also went for the fully assembled version -- for $10, this seemed well worth it.

The advertised name of the completely programmable PCB is "Santa" GH60. This turns out to be incorrect. "Santa" is of course a perfect anagram with "Satan". I do not know, but it could be that the typo was an intentional ploy to overcome the negative associations with the unfortunate actual name of the "Satan GH60" PCB.

ARRIVAL
The keyboard arrived much sooner than I had expected. Although the packaging left something to be desired, several keycaps had detached from their switches, and the screw-in aluminum feet were loose, no damage was done, and I soon had the board up and running.

FIRST IMPRESSIONS
Cons
My first impressions were somewhat negative for several small reasons:

-- Initially, I thought that the top layer of the plastic sandwich case had been marred with tool marks, but I discovered that the apparent blemishes were readily removed by a light scrub with 70% (v/v) isopropyl alcohol.

-- The aluminum feet look great, but they do not elevate the keyboard enough for me. I left them in place, but I installed self-adhesive conical feet (0.75 inches high) next to the aluminum ones. The keyboard lacked front feet, and so I installed self-adhesive small round silicone bumpers on the front corners on the underside of the board.

-- Although the keycaps felt okay, and it was a nice touch to have the exact HHKB legends (plus additional ones for the LED controls), I did not like the appearance of the lasered legends. I initially replaced the caps with two sets from Originative: Classic Black dye-sub thick PBT for the modifiers and spacebar; and the Hangul 60% dye-sub thick PBT for alphanumerics. However, although the Hangul set is attractive, the Hangul sub-legends look at bit too busy for a 60% board, so I replaced these with a plain Gateron dye-sub PBT set.

-- Usually I would not use the LEDs, but they could be useful when working in a darkened room. They look okay, except for the LED in the spacebar. The spacebar switch has been reversed, so that the LED is facing the front instead of the rear. This results in too much light from under the spacebar, which I found distracting. I will probably cover the spacebar LED with black electrical tape.

-- The most serious problem for me was the rattly stabilizers -- just about the worst stabilizer noise I had ever encountered in a keyboard. Fortunately, I was able to eliminate the rattle through a combination of keycap replacement, lubing the stabilizers with Superlube grease, putting self-adhesive rubber foam strips inside the spacebar, and installing a red O-ring on the central stem of the spacebar.

Pros
-- On the positive side, the pre-programmed HHKB layout worked exactly as advertised. In addition, the LED controls worked just fine. I am not a fan of backlighting, but it can actually be useful when using a keyboard in dim lighting conditions.

-- An unexpected plus was my positive reaction to the Gateron Yellow switches. This came as quite a surprise, as I have never liked Cherry mx switches or their clones.

The click of the clicky Cherry mx switches seemed like an irritating artificial add-on. The "tactile bump" of the tactile switches was simply a cam grafted onto the switch stem that had nothing to do with the actuation mechanism; moreover, browns felt gritty and clears had a fatiguing bottoming-out force. The best Cherries for me were the linears, but blacks were too heavy and reds were too light; in addition, the reds felt a bit scratchy.

In marked contrast to any Cherry mx switch I had tried, Gateron Yellows felt just about right -- they have an actuation force of 50g - 55g (about the same as Gateron Blacks but lighter than Cherry Blacks at 60g - 65g), but their bottoming-out force of ~65g is less than that of Gateron Blacks (~70g) or Cherry Blacks ~80g. There is confusion about this, because apparently there was an earlier version of Gateron Yellow that had a very high bottoming-out force -- these were dubbed "Super Blacks", which were very different from the current generation of Gateron Yellows.

In addition to their ideal weight (for me), Gateron Yellow switches are extremely smooth -- attributed at least in part to factory lubing.

There is a good discussion of Gateron Yellow switches at the following site:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3reu6z/gateron_switch_science/?

OVERALL CONCLUSIONS
Despite the shortcomings listed above, I highly recommend this keyboard. It is especially good for those who like the HHKB layout, but even for those who prefer other configurations, this board is completely programmable. In addition, for backlighting enthusiasts or those who work in the dark, the board has controllable LEDs. Finally, Gateron switches provide compatibility with the universe of Cherry-mount keycaps, and the Gateron Yellows that I chose have made me a convert to this switch.

Because I bottom-out my keystrokes, the click that this makes provides sufficient auditory feedback for me. I thoroughly enjoy like the sound and feel of this keyboard, which I attribute to a combination of the plastic sandwich construction, thick PBT keycaps, and the Gateron Yellow switches. Moreover, my typing speed and accuracy on this keyboard are at the level of my personal best for any keyboard.

By the way, I would add that the Classic Black dye-sub PBT keycap set from Originative is a perfect profile match with their dye-sub PBT Hangul set or the dye-sub PBT Gateron set that I ultimately used. The Classic Black is one of the few sets that includes extras such as a 7.0x Spacebar, 1.75x Right Shift, and 1.0x Fn key to occupy the space next to the short Right Shift.

Although I was able to eliminate most of the stabilizer rattle from the three stabilized keys (Enter/Return, Left Shift, and Spacebar), I would like to see keyboard designs that obviate the need for stabilizers altogether while preserving as much as possible the standard layout and staggering. As least for me, I would be fine with a Backspace key of 1.25x - 1.50x, shift keys between 1.25x and 1.75x, Enter/Return key of 1.25x - 1.75x, and a short Spacebar. The Spacebar might have to be doubled -- perhaps two 1.75x keys near the center of the keyboard.

Shown below are two pics of the keyboard:

Close-up of the Gateron dye-sub PBT keycaps, Gateron Yellow Clear-Top switches with White LEDs.
142613-0
Note that the white Gateron PBT caps are sufficiently thick and/or dense that they do not allow the LED light to shine through. Similarly, light does not penetrate the Originative black PBT keycaps.  Incidentally, I tried some white Ducky PBT caps, and these did allow some light transmission.

View of keyboard showing the HHKB layout.
142615-1
Apart from the Backtick/Tilde, Tab, Enter/Return, Left Shift, Right Shift, and Fn keys, the legends on the Originative caps do not match the HHKB layout. However, this is not noticeable in dim light. For those who prefer the correct legends, these are provided on the white lasered PBT caps that come with the keyboard.

« Last Edit: Sun, 17 July 2016, 14:20:50 by Hypersphere »

Offline Morgan1206

  • Posts: 1
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 20 July 2016, 21:52:10 »
 :cool:

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8123
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 20 July 2016, 23:45:59 »
Thank you very much for the review, I also found the kit at some Chinese site, but had serious doubts about its quality; therefore, your review enlighten us that may be interested in it. I'd like to see more pictures of the keyboard and also of the key caps that came with the kit, while it is very nice to see your other sets, it would be great to see what was actually included with the kit.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 21 July 2016, 07:07:48 »
@ideus: If you go to the eBay listing, you can see some additional pics of the board, including the keycaps that come with it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HHKB-Mechanical-Keyboard-DIY-Kit-Customized-Set-SANTA-GH60-PCB-Gateron-Switch-/182180146267?hash=item2a6ac86c5b:g:tgEAAOSwQaJXQvsa&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true


Offline SpAmRaY

  • NOT a Moderator
  • * Certified Spammer
  • Posts: 14667
  • Location: ¯\(°_o)/¯
  • because reasons.......
How did you specify the switch type, led color etc? Did you have to message the seller after payment?

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 21 July 2016, 07:21:53 »
@SpAmRaY: Yes, I messaged the seller to agree on the various choices before payment.

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8123
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 21 July 2016, 08:32:08 »
@ideus: If you go to the eBay listing, you can see some additional pics of the board, including the keycaps that come with it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HHKB-Mechanical-Keyboard-DIY-Kit-Customized-Set-SANTA-GH60-PCB-Gateron-Switch-/182180146267?hash=item2a6ac86c5b:g:tgEAAOSwQaJXQvsa&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true

Yes I know that, I have seen them, it is only that they do not show for example how thick they are, nor the texture, neither the quality of the legends; as in a review. But, thank you anyway.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 21 July 2016, 10:49:54 »
Here is a pic of a selection of the lasered PBT keycaps that were included with the SA60HH keyboard:

142989-0

They are OEM profile and have a similar thickness (~ 1.5 mm) and texture as Gateron PBT caps. They are not as rough as Keycool PBT caps that I have tried or as smooth as Ducky PBT caps. The lasered legends result in a palpable roughness in the area of the legend on some, but not all, of the caps. Unlike the Gateron caps, the stock caps transmit some light, making the legends visible with the white LEDs.

Note that the legends mimic those of the HHKB Pro 2, including the front legends. There are also some extra front legends, such as those describing the LED controls on the Z-row. Of course, don't expect the excellent fit and finish found on the dye-sub PBT keycaps that come with a genuine Topre-switch HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce board.

Note also that unlike the actual HHKB, the bottom row is 1.00x, 1.50x, 7.00x, 1.50x, 1.00x. However, like the actual HHKB, the top row has two 1.00x keys instead of a 2.00x Backspace, and it has a split Right Shift (1.75x, 1.00x). Keep all this in mind when sourcing keycap sets for the SA60HH (BTW, this is the short name of the keyboard that I recommended to the vendor. Whether or not he decides to use this name, I will probably adopt it as a convenient moniker for the board).

« Last Edit: Thu, 21 July 2016, 11:47:59 by Hypersphere »

Offline redbanshee

  • actually Dade Murphy
  • Posts: 487
  • Location: The Gibson
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 21 July 2016, 11:02:29 »
Have an un-built version of this arriving in a few days, wondering if this comes with the first or second version of the satan pcb. Will report back

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8123
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 21 July 2016, 11:32:57 »
The key caps look better than I thought that they were, the only thing that seems under average is the quality of the legends, but the thickness and surface look good.

One thing that I do not like about this version of the GH60 PCB is that the switches are turned up side down, that make cause some issues with some key caps if LEDs are installed.

Can some one confirm if the GH60 version that is sold by TechKeys have the switches in the standard position?

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 21 July 2016, 11:36:39 »
Can some one confirm if the GH60 version that is sold by TechKeys have the switches in the standard position?

Yes, there are only four or five switch locations rotated 180 degrees, to accommodate the USB connector, ISO Enter, etc.


And FWIW, the Satan PCB is not a GH60 at all. It's just a Chinese 60% which likes to use the "GH60" moniker for marketing purposes.
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 July 2016, 11:41:55 by jdcarpe »
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8123
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 21 July 2016, 11:57:47 »
Can some one confirm if the GH60 version that is sold by TechKeys have the switches in the standard position?

Yes, there are only four or five switch locations rotated 180 degrees, to accommodate the USB connector, ISO Enter, etc.


And FWIW, the Satan PCB is not a GH60 at all. It's just a Chinese 60% which likes to use the "GH60" moniker for marketing purposes.

Thank you JD, and the final note is very important, actually, I am slowly planning my next build and I had some thoughts about this Satan PCB, but with your explanation the route is clear, I should go for the GH60, no doubts now, thank you again.

Offline y2bd

  • Posts: 54
  • Location: California, sorry
  • I'm just here for the caps
    • Twitter
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 22 July 2016, 19:08:54 »
Interesting board! Do you find that your Gateron PBT caps catch on the 3mm LED? That's happened to me before, but with bottom-mount LEDs. From the pictures you have your LEDs are top mount, so I wonder if that solves that issue.

Offline jdcarpe

  • * Curator
  • Posts: 8852
  • Location: Odessa, TX
  • Live long, and prosper.
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 03 August 2016, 11:54:17 »
Now available with different kit options, such as Gateron or Cherry switches, with or without assembly, including fiberglass-and-acrylic case only Kit 5 (you're welcome!).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182206428765
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline redbanshee

  • actually Dade Murphy
  • Posts: 487
  • Location: The Gibson
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 03 August 2016, 12:16:52 »
Assembled mine a few nights ago, build album: http://imgur.com/a/3wxkl

Overall I like the kit, the dye subs are a little wonky on the front prints but feel good.


Pros:
Case is nice polycarb
Keycaps are textured real nice
included extra switches
1210 LED pads on back


Cons:
comes with terrible rattly stabs
pcb wasnt programmed for HHKB layout
no feet


Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 03 August 2016, 17:23:55 »
@redbanshee: Nice job! I agree about the rattly stabilizers -- I alleviated this by applying Superlube grease to the stabilizers. To help deaden the spacebar, I installed a red O-ring on the spacebar switch and thin strips of self-adhesive foam inside the spacebar.

For comparison, I got a KBP V60 with Gateron Yellows, put it into a TEX aluminum case, and installed Leopold dye-sub PBT keycaps. To get the HHKB layout, I used a Hasu USB-USB converter programmed to the HHKB layout. This board sounds and feels very much like the SA60HH. The Cherry plate-mounted stabilizers in the V60 are quiet, but they are a bit mushy.

Offline mousouchop

  • Posts: 35
  • Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 03 January 2017, 11:16:49 »
This is a very interesting item... especially since I am considering an HHKB for it's size, and unique layout. This would open up the world of MX caps if I were to go this route, as well as give me a cheaper entry unit into the mechanical keyboard world. The seller still has several of these kits for sale too!

Can you give us an update, as to your satisfaction with the durability/quality after using the board for the last 6 months? Of course, I am assuming that you have used this enough to give such feedback, though perhaps you put this board aside for another shortly after your initial review above.

Thanks in advance!

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 18 January 2017, 13:49:46 »
This is a very interesting item... especially since I am considering an HHKB for it's size, and unique layout. This would open up the world of MX caps if I were to go this route, as well as give me a cheaper entry unit into the mechanical keyboard world. The seller still has several of these kits for sale too!

Can you give us an update, as to your satisfaction with the durability/quality after using the board for the last 6 months? Of course, I am assuming that you have used this enough to give such feedback, though perhaps you put this board aside for another shortly after your initial review above.

Thanks in advance!
Your final assumption was correct. I have largely put the "Santa" board aside for a number of reasons. Although the board could be a great choice for those who like Cherry mx switches and clones such as Gateron, there are a number of other types of switches that are much higher on my list, including Topre, IBM capacitive buckling spring (Model F), and various Alps switches and clones.

Lately, I have been infatuated with vintage Alps switches and keyboards. A great choice here is the Alps64 PCB (sold by Hasu on GH) for a DIY 60% fully programmable keyboard. Alps switches have even caused me to go back to using full-size keyboards, such as the Northgate Omnikey 101 with SKCM White Alps.

The keyboard I keep coming back to is my trusty lubed and silenced HHKB. It has it all as far as I am concerned -- 60% form factor, HHKB layout, beautiful styling, superb dye-sub PBT keycaps, and excellent Topre switches. Thus far, the HHKB has been my most reliable keyboard as well -- no dead keys; no chattering. Here is a pic of my HHKB with some customizing of the keycaps:

157926-0



Offline mousouchop

  • Posts: 35
  • Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 19 January 2017, 07:51:42 »
Awesome. Thanks for the update! This is helpful... though since I have already won two Topre artisans, I am basically 100% going for an HHKB or FC660C.

Since you mention your HHKB is silenced... any opinions on the Type-S? If you were buying again, would you go for the Type-S for the out-of-the-box silencing?

Offline hking0036

  • Posts: 343
  • Location: NC, USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 19 January 2017, 09:35:37 »
Awesome. Thanks for the update! This is helpful... though since I have already won two Topre artisans, I am basically 100% going for an HHKB or FC660C.

Since you mention your HHKB is silenced... any opinions on the Type-S? If you were buying again, would you go for the Type-S for the out-of-the-box silencing?
Asking hypersphere himself is setting an answer for yourself :p

It depends how you want it. If you go for stock silencing it costs $80 extra, but the stems are supposed to be a hair longer to compensate for the silencing included. Either way you're still going to get reduced travel. I think personally I'd try and do it myself since slipping rings on doesn't sound super challenging, but I don't know if they really need it either. Both my realforce and Leopold have great sound on their own without silencing so I don't know if I'd even want to change them. Keep in mind if you want certain combos you'll have to do it yourself anyways though - if you want a 45g rf87 board with silencing, or a silenced 660C at all. I'd be interested in hearing a silenced 660 myself since as far as I'm concerned it has some of the best sound of any keyboard I've used.
« Last Edit: Thu, 19 January 2017, 09:39:27 by hking0036 »
Realforce RF87UB 45g Uniform | Leopold FC660C w/ TMK | IBM Model M - 3/24/1997 | IBM Model F 122 - 11/25/1985 ANSI'd w/ TMK | IBM Model F XT in a box

Offline mousouchop

  • Posts: 35
  • Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 19 January 2017, 09:58:30 »
Asking hypersphere himself is setting an answer for yourself :p

It depends how you want it. If you go for stock silencing it costs $80 extra, but the stems are supposed to be a hair longer to compensate for the silencing included. Either way you're still going to get reduced travel. I think personally I'd try and do it myself since slipping rings on doesn't sound super challenging, but I don't know if they really need it either. Both my realforce and Leopold have great sound on their own without silencing so I don't know if I'd even want to change them. Keep in mind if you want certain combos you'll have to do it yourself anyways though - if you want a 45g rf87 board with silencing, or a silenced 660C at all. I'd be interested in hearing a silenced 660 myself since as far as I'm concerned it has some of the best sound of any keyboard I've used.

haha. Yeah-- I am a newbie here , so I wasn't sure if the "Hypersphere" username was because he/she is a fan of the same-named silencer rings, or because he/she is the creator of the silencer rings. I'll assume the latter is the case, and that the answer will be that they prefer aftermarket silencing versus the stock silencing of the Type-S. I will have to search the forums for pricing; if the hypersphere silencing is significantly cheaper that the $80 premium for the Type-S, then I suppose aftermarket is the way to go.

Offline hking0036

  • Posts: 343
  • Location: NC, USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 19 January 2017, 10:39:59 »
Asking hypersphere himself is setting an answer for yourself :p

It depends how you want it. If you go for stock silencing it costs $80 extra, but the stems are supposed to be a hair longer to compensate for the silencing included. Either way you're still going to get reduced travel. I think personally I'd try and do it myself since slipping rings on doesn't sound super challenging, but I don't know if they really need it either. Both my realforce and Leopold have great sound on their own without silencing so I don't know if I'd even want to change them. Keep in mind if you want certain combos you'll have to do it yourself anyways though - if you want a 45g rf87 board with silencing, or a silenced 660C at all. I'd be interested in hearing a silenced 660 myself since as far as I'm concerned it has some of the best sound of any keyboard I've used.

haha. Yeah-- I am a newbie here , so I wasn't sure if the "Hypersphere" username was because he/she is a fan of the same-named silencer rings, or because he/she is the creator of the silencer rings. I'll assume the latter is the case, and that the answer will be that they prefer aftermarket silencing versus the stock silencing of the Type-S. I will have to search the forums for pricing; if the hypersphere silencing is significantly cheaper that the $80 premium for the Type-S, then I suppose aftermarket is the way to go.
It's definitely cheaper, it just requires a little work. I think it comes out to a little less than half the extra cost.
Realforce RF87UB 45g Uniform | Leopold FC660C w/ TMK | IBM Model M - 3/24/1997 | IBM Model F 122 - 11/25/1985 ANSI'd w/ TMK | IBM Model F XT in a box

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 19 January 2017, 16:08:32 »
Awesome. Thanks for the update! This is helpful... though since I have already won two Topre artisans, I am basically 100% going for an HHKB or FC660C.

Since you mention your HHKB is silenced... any opinions on the Type-S? If you were buying again, would you go for the Type-S for the out-of-the-box silencing?
Naturally, given that I am the Hypersphere of the Silencing Rings, it is difficult for me to be unbiased. However, I will try to be as objective as possible. I have both the Type-S HHKB and several standard HHKB as well as several RF87U and Novatouch boards that I have silenced with my Rings and lubed.

First of all, the Type-S HHKB does not have different sliders from the standard HHKB, so there is in fact a slight change in key travel. You can see this on the PFU HHKB Type-S site:

http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/type-s/

The site is in Janpanese, and if you click on the "English" heading, it unfortunately does not translate the page -- it takes you to a different page that does not have the same information. However, even if you do not read Japanese, you can see the "3.8 mm" in the product description. BTW, the Elitekeyboards.com site says that  the key travel is 4.0 mm on all the HHKB models, but this information is incorrect.

Presumably the difference in key travel with the Type-S and with a standard HHKB silenced with my Rings is measurable, and some people say they notice it, but I do not notice the difference with either version of silenced HHKB.

The slider situation in the Type-S HHKB is different from that in the silenced version of the RF87U that was on the market in the past. These factory-silenced boards had different sliders from those in their standard boards and they differentiated them by making them a different color (purple) -- not to be confused with the purple hybrid stems in the Novatouch, which was not a factory-silenced board.

As for sound and feel, I do indeed have a preference for the standard HHKB silenced with my Rings. However, I also lube all the switch rails and stabilizers with Superlube 51010 oil, and I put an additional foam layer on top of the spacebar shock absorbers. These extra treatments certainly have an effect on the sound and feel of the keyboard. I do the same extra things with all my Topre-switch keyboards.

Of course, the choice is up to you, but perhaps these comments will help you with your decision.




Offline hking0036

  • Posts: 343
  • Location: NC, USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 19 January 2017, 19:17:59 »
Awesome. Thanks for the update! This is helpful... though since I have already won two Topre artisans, I am basically 100% going for an HHKB or FC660C.

Since you mention your HHKB is silenced... any opinions on the Type-S? If you were buying again, would you go for the Type-S for the out-of-the-box silencing?
Naturally, given that I am the Hypersphere of the Silencing Rings, it is difficult for me to be unbiased. However, I will try to be as objective as possible. I have both the Type-S HHKB and several standard HHKB as well as several RF87U and Novatouch boards that I have silenced with my Rings and lubed.

First of all, the Type-S HHKB does not have different sliders from the standard HHKB, so there is in fact a slight change in key travel. You can see this on the PFU HHKB Type-S site:

http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/type-s/

The site is in Janpanese, and if you click on the "English" heading, it unfortunately does not translate the page -- it takes you to a different page that does not have the same information. However, even if you do not read Japanese, you can see the "3.8 mm" in the product description. BTW, the Elitekeyboards.com site says that  the key travel is 4.0 mm on all the HHKB models, but this information is incorrect.

Presumably the difference in key travel with the Type-S and with a standard HHKB silenced with my Rings is measurable, and some people say they notice it, but I do not notice the difference with either version of silenced HHKB.

The slider situation in the Type-S HHKB is different from that in the silenced version of the RF87U that was on the market in the past. These factory-silenced boards had different sliders from those in their standard boards and they differentiated them by making them a different color (purple) -- not to be confused with the purple hybrid stems in the Novatouch, which was not a factory-silenced board.

As for sound and feel, I do indeed have a preference for the standard HHKB silenced with my Rings. However, I also lube all the switch rails and stabilizers with Superlube 51010 oil, and I put an additional foam layer on top of the spacebar shock absorbers. These extra treatments certainly have an effect on the sound and feel of the keyboard. I do the same extra things with all my Topre-switch keyboards.

Of course, the choice is up to you, but perhaps these comments will help you with your decision.
Someone found that the sliders on the type-s are actually longer:

Made a pic of the sliders. You can see that the ones from the Type-S are a bit longer.
Other than that, I could not make out a difference between the case of a standard HHKB and the Type-S with the naked eye.

Also, my new Type-S has arrived and it's also a revision A1, 2016-08. So it seems that there is no revision A2 for the Type-S.

(Attachment Link)

but it either doesn't affect the travel, or it may be batch-to-batch variance, who knows. Regardless, it's an interesting comparison. Do you have a demo somewhere of a 660 with your rings on? I'm interested to see what difference it makes.
Realforce RF87UB 45g Uniform | Leopold FC660C w/ TMK | IBM Model M - 3/24/1997 | IBM Model F 122 - 11/25/1985 ANSI'd w/ TMK | IBM Model F XT in a box

Offline mousouchop

  • Posts: 35
  • Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 19 January 2017, 21:35:37 »
I see the bit about 3.8mm. Right under that it claims 30% reduction in keystroke sound to the standard (日本語を読めるよ). I assume with your rings the reduction is similar?

I do appreciate the lengthy response. Very helpful indeed. Thank you!

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 20 January 2017, 10:17:34 »
Awesome. Thanks for the update! This is helpful... though since I have already won two Topre artisans, I am basically 100% going for an HHKB or FC660C.

Since you mention your HHKB is silenced... any opinions on the Type-S? If you were buying again, would you go for the Type-S for the out-of-the-box silencing?
Naturally, given that I am the Hypersphere of the Silencing Rings, it is difficult for me to be unbiased. However, I will try to be as objective as possible. I have both the Type-S HHKB and several standard HHKB as well as several RF87U and Novatouch boards that I have silenced with my Rings and lubed.

First of all, the Type-S HHKB does not have different sliders from the standard HHKB, so there is in fact a slight change in key travel. You can see this on the PFU HHKB Type-S site:

http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/type-s/

The site is in Janpanese, and if you click on the "English" heading, it unfortunately does not translate the page -- it takes you to a different page that does not have the same information. However, even if you do not read Japanese, you can see the "3.8 mm" in the product description. BTW, the Elitekeyboards.com site says that  the key travel is 4.0 mm on all the HHKB models, but this information is incorrect.

Presumably the difference in key travel with the Type-S and with a standard HHKB silenced with my Rings is measurable, and some people say they notice it, but I do not notice the difference with either version of silenced HHKB.

The slider situation in the Type-S HHKB is different from that in the silenced version of the RF87U that was on the market in the past. These factory-silenced boards had different sliders from those in their standard boards and they differentiated them by making them a different color (purple) -- not to be confused with the purple hybrid stems in the Novatouch, which was not a factory-silenced board.

As for sound and feel, I do indeed have a preference for the standard HHKB silenced with my Rings. However, I also lube all the switch rails and stabilizers with Superlube 51010 oil, and I put an additional foam layer on top of the spacebar shock absorbers. These extra treatments certainly have an effect on the sound and feel of the keyboard. I do the same extra things with all my Topre-switch keyboards.

Of course, the choice is up to you, but perhaps these comments will help you with your decision.
Someone found that the sliders on the type-s are actually longer:

Made a pic of the sliders. You can see that the ones from the Type-S are a bit longer.
Other than that, I could not make out a difference between the case of a standard HHKB and the Type-S with the naked eye.

Also, my new Type-S has arrived and it's also a revision A1, 2016-08. So it seems that there is no revision A2 for the Type-S.

(Attachment Link)

but it either doesn't affect the travel, or it may be batch-to-batch variance, who knows. Regardless, it's an interesting comparison. Do you have a demo somewhere of a 660 with your rings on? I'm interested to see what difference it makes.
Thanks for pointing out the post showing a difference between the standard and Type-S HHKB sliders. I was unaware of this until now, and I do not know how to reconcile this with the information on the PFU Type-S web page.

As for the sound reduction, I am not sure how they came up the the 30% figure. Perhaps they used a decibel meter.

There have been a number of posts on GH, DT, and elsewhere that include audio clips of silenced and standard HHKB and other keyboards. Here are just a couple links:

https://deskthority.net/review-f45/hhkb-pro-2-type-s-hhkb-pro-2-and-hypersphere-s-silencing-rings-t14296.html

https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/audio-and-waveforms-of-assorted-keyboards-t11269.html

There are probably similar posts for other Topre-switch keyboards as well that could be turned up with a bit of Googling.

Offline mousouchop

  • Posts: 35
  • Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 20 January 2017, 12:05:33 »
I will take a look at those videos this evening. Thank you again for your gracious assistance Hypersphere!

Offline Hypersphere

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout Gateron Switches DIY or Assembled Keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 20 January 2017, 16:45:01 »
Recently, I revisited the eBay site for the "Santa GH60" HHKB Layout DIY or Assembled Keyboard.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HHKB-Mechanical-Keyboard-DIY-Kit-Customized-Set-SANTA-GH60-PCB-MX-Switch-For-60-/182414440386?var=&hash=item2a78bf77c2:m:mcMefKqWqVRKm3DwTIFcEkw

There are several options for DIY or assembled kits including various choices for LEDs and switches, both Cherry mx and Gateron.  I was initially dismayed to see that the black case was out of stock and was not going to be replaced. However, I emailed the store contact and was told that he stopped using black glass fiber cases because they scratched too easily. He is going to be offering a black aluminum case. He didn't give any details about the aluminum case, so if people are interested, they could check his store from time to time.

For those who like Cherry mx or Gateron switches, these are actually nice little boards with the added advantage of complete programmability. I got mine fully assembled and pre-programmed, but I think it uses QMK.