Author Topic: SO MANY KEYBOARDS  (Read 4998 times)

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Offline Ewanhen

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SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 09:34:36 »
Since Christmas is coming up, I will most likely be buying a new keyboard as my Filco Majestouch 2 has some sticky keys.
I am currently looking at getting another Filco TKL with browns or blues.
However, I have enough money to get the realforce 88u with topre switches which I hear everyone loves so much.
Should I spend the extra money to get the Realforce instead of the Filco?

Offline joneslee85

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 09:45:06 »
It's Jude different switches, some prefers Filco to Topre. I would suggest u go for Filco as there are more mod items like case, keycap to buy


PS: I do have one Filco TKL Brown to sell
TOO MANY KEYBOARDS THAT I COULD NOT COUNT! BUT I AM STILL USING MY MODEL F77

Offline Pacifist

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 09:45:39 »
Get the topre. Its worth it

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 09:46:48 »
I'll cast my vote for the Kingsaver. That's whats up.

Oh and I guess the Filco too.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 09:49:30 »
Get the topre. Its worth it

Have you even tried a topre :P

Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 11:00:22 »
Since Christmas is coming up, I will most likely be buying a new keyboard as my Filco Majestouch 2 has some sticky keys.
I am currently looking at getting another Filco TKL with browns or blues.
However, I have enough money to get the realforce 88u with topre switches which I hear everyone loves so much.
Should I spend the extra money to get the Realforce instead of the Filco?

Seeing as how you already own a Filco board (and most likely a Cherry MX based board at that). It might be a good idea to actually try out Topre and see which one would suit you better. The Filco in its former state versus Realforce with Topre. I mean if you have the budget it wouldn't hurt I suppose to try out various switches whilst you are at it.

Also it is possible in theory to swap out the sticky keys on the Filco with working ones with a bit of d-i-y modding. This may work out cheaper as well than buying another Cherry MX board and plus I guess even more reasoning you should try out other types of switches whilst you can.
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Offline Pacifist

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 11:01:41 »

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 11:05:26 »
Get the topre. Its worth it

Have you even tried a topre :p

No. But I want it

So how can you recommend it to someone??  :))

Offline frvrngn

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 11:56:00 »
I recommend the Topre, at least to try it out.  The nice thing about RF boards and Topre in general is that they tend to hold decent resale value if you decide its just not for you.  I bought the Type Heaven to minimize the up front costs and I found I like the feel quite a bit and will most likely be buying either a RF or HHKB in the near future.
Currently using: Cherry G80-1800 Ergo Clears, HHKB Pro 2, RF 87U Silent

Offline theMANtonio

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 12:15:42 »
I dove head first in and now have a RF 87U 45g, RF 87U 55g, and HHKB w/ dental band mod. I just wanted to try Topres. But I am keeping all of them  ;D

Offline Ewanhen

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 12:19:00 »
Thanks for all the help guys,
I will get the RF 88u and hope that one of the repair shops near me can fix the keyboard.
That way I can basically get both the keyboards and it will only cost like £15 extra

Offline czarek

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 12:35:30 »
+1 on Filco. Topre is a short hype :) Rubber wears out quickly, and it's got many issues like inconsistent feel (difference in weight in "uniform" keyboards is +- 15g, and you can't RMA that as that's what spec says), crappy ABS spacebar (and whatever you do to your Topre, put it in gold plated case, you will still have shiny crappy ABS space bar) and very expensive and hard to get replacement keycaps. Also if you do something to rubber under one of the keys forget about getting a replacement just for that - you will have to get whole board to fix one key :)
It does have unique feel though and if you're lucky (I somehow was with my HHKB which is quite consistent, Realforce was so inconsistent I just couldn't stand it) it's ok for some time, at least until it wears out. When worn it becomes really weird. Less used keys become heavier due to rubber stiffening, and mostly used keys become linear. I have this with my HHKB and as long as I'm using it only for travel I can live with it, but if there were any MX based 60% board with usable layout (I know GH60 is cool but I can't get/make one yet), I'd sell my HHKB straight away.
With Filco it's all consistent, keyboard is very well made, stock keycaps are no better than QFR (i mean you can feel they're cheap, but they look and work ok) but you can replace them with excellent ones, better than Topre for relatively low cost and Filco + nice PBT caps will still cost half price of Realforce :)
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 November 2013, 12:41:34 by czarek »
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Offline theMANtonio

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 12:37:46 »
Thanks for all the help guys,
I will get the RF 88u and hope that one of the repair shops near me can fix the keyboard.
That way I can basically get both the keyboards and it will only cost like £15 extra
Good choice  :thumb:

Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 15:12:47 »
+1 on Filco. Topre is a short hype :) Rubber wears out quickly, and it's got many issues like inconsistent feel (difference in weight in "uniform" keyboards is +- 15g, and you can't RMA that as that's what spec says), crappy ABS spacebar (and whatever you do to your Topre, put it in gold plated case, you will still have shiny crappy ABS space bar) and very expensive and hard to get replacement keycaps. Also if you do something to rubber under one of the keys forget about getting a replacement just for that - you will have to get whole board to fix one key :)
It does have unique feel though and if you're lucky (I somehow was with my HHKB which is quite consistent, Realforce was so inconsistent I just couldn't stand it) it's ok for some time, at least until it wears out. When worn it becomes really weird. Less used keys become heavier due to rubber stiffening, and mostly used keys become linear. I have this with my HHKB and as long as I'm using it only for travel I can live with it, but if there were any MX based 60% board with usable layout (I know GH60 is cool but I can't get/make one yet), I'd sell my HHKB straight away.
With Filco it's all consistent, keyboard is very well made, stock keycaps are no better than QFR (i mean you can feel they're cheap, but they look and work ok) but you can replace them with excellent ones, better than Topre for relatively low cost and Filco + nice PBT caps will still cost half price of Realforce :)

If you have the JP/JIS variant of the HHKB (this may also very well extend right onto Realforce JIS keyboard for instance as well but I am not sure) the spacebar is not likely to shine any faster than a full sized spacebar. It was said before the JIS spacebar (yes that exact puny spacebar that people loathe) is not made of ABS but PBT.

About the nice PBT caps for Cherry MX, that is another one small bad thing about them featured on many boards. When people want durability at an affordable price they find PBT caps are rare than ABS. That said the majority of the Topre boards are using PBT. Even though Topre boards are not as expanse as Cherry MX range, it seems as though more thought has been taken into Topre boards. Also, the majority of the Topre boards comes with sublimation printing on top of PBT. Realforce also offers lasered printing but the majority still remails sublimation. All modern HHKB are sublimated.

I am not taking this out specifically on you but I thought there were some things notable in what you said that I couldn't let go of.

On a last but a very minor note, it is inevitable that rubber domes will stiffen over time. At the same time it is not like there is nothing that cannot be done to counteract (temporarily) the stiffening. It was once said that HHKB Pro are the professional end of keyboards designed for those professionals in mind rather than those looking to make the most out of some high end equipment and thinking they would last an eternity. I have here, a pair of Sony MDR-7506 studio monitors. These were once heralded as professional choice for audio reproduction by professionals within the audio realm. Now these pair of cans have leather sort of like wrapping (more like faux leather imo but anyway), and throughout over use I have noticed these leather started peeling off slowly eventually leading to what is now just some simple foam padding. I do admit it is a bit of a pity that the nice bit of leather that was once wrapped around it has now largely disappeeared but is it something that I can count as something that I would regret with my purchase? no. How does this relate to Topre boards stiffening over time? think about professionals whom probably would not be hanging onto the same piece of stuff over great periods of time and even if they would, they wouldn't be moaning about the said product that has loss its appeal.

Professional equipment at the end of the day does not necessarily mean it would last an eternity, neither does forking out lots of money for a keyboard technology would necessarily mean that you will never have any sort of issues over the use of the said product. On the other hand, whilst one has professional equipment in their hands it is best for one to embrace the quality of the said product despite of its shortcomings.

Now in response to OP, wise choice! now you will soon be able to understand what it feels like to use a Topre board. I would also do the same thing if I could (but with Cherry MX for instance) but after tasting Topre board it seems like the best idea for me is to hold out for a worthy enough Cherry MX board to contend with my Topre.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 November 2013, 15:18:22 by tuxsavvy »
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Offline reziak

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 15:40:16 »
As someone who just received his first Topre board, I cannot recommend it enough. My favorite MX switch is brown, and I can safely say Topre blows them out of the water for anything except gaming. Still prefer my MX board for that :) again, it's all subjective, but you might fall in love.

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Offline Danule

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 15:59:54 »
+1 on Filco. Topre is a short hype :) Rubber wears out quickly, and it's got many issues like inconsistent feel (difference in weight in "uniform" keyboards is +- 15g, and you can't RMA that as that's what spec says), crappy ABS spacebar (and whatever you do to your Topre, put it in gold plated case, you will still have shiny crappy ABS space bar) and very expensive and hard to get replacement keycaps. Also if you do something to rubber under one of the keys forget about getting a replacement just for that - you will have to get whole board to fix one key :)
It does have unique feel though and if you're lucky (I somehow was with my HHKB which is quite consistent, Realforce was so inconsistent I just couldn't stand it) it's ok for some time, at least until it wears out. When worn it becomes really weird. Less used keys become heavier due to rubber stiffening, and mostly used keys become linear. I have this with my HHKB and as long as I'm using it only for travel I can live with it, but if there were any MX based 60% board with usable layout (I know GH60 is cool but I can't get/make one yet), I'd sell my HHKB straight away.
With Filco it's all consistent, keyboard is very well made, stock keycaps are no better than QFR (i mean you can feel they're cheap, but they look and work ok) but you can replace them with excellent ones, better than Topre for relatively low cost and Filco + nice PBT caps will still cost half price of Realforce :)
how long did it take for your keyboard rubber to "wear out"?
45g Brown Brown Blue

Offline rowdy

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 17:23:13 »
Topre were rated to 20 million keypresses, and I heard that they have upped that to 50 million - so same as MX.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 17:31:52 »
There is always this thread for those wanting to know approximately how long Topre keyboards last before rubber starts stiffening up. To me I honestly believe such changes are subtle if anything but I'll leave that decision for the viewers to decide: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=27474.0
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Offline terran5992

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 21:48:54 »
There is always this thread for those wanting to know approximately how long Topre keyboards last before rubber starts stiffening up. To me I honestly believe such changes are subtle if anything but I'll leave that decision for the viewers to decide: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=27474.0

IMO its really awesome that instead of losing the feel of the topre swtich . The longer you use it the better it feels

Listokei Custom  |  HHKB Pro 2  |  Topre Realforce 103UBH  |  Armageddon MKA-3


Offline berserkfan

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 23:12:56 »
+1 on Filco. Topre is a short hype :) Rubber wears out quickly, and it's got many issues like inconsistent feel (difference in weight in "uniform" keyboards is +- 15g, and you can't RMA that as that's what spec says), crappy ABS spacebar (and whatever you do to your Topre, put it in gold plated case, you will still have shiny crappy ABS space bar) and very expensive and hard to get replacement keycaps. Also if you do something to rubber under one of the keys forget about getting a replacement just for that - you will have to get whole board to fix one key :)
It does have unique feel though and if you're lucky (I somehow was with my HHKB which is quite consistent, Realforce was so inconsistent I just couldn't stand it) it's ok for some time, at least until it wears out. When worn it becomes really weird. Less used keys become heavier due to rubber stiffening, and mostly used keys become linear. I have this with my HHKB and as long as I'm using it only for travel I can live with it, but if there were any MX based 60% board with usable layout (I know GH60 is cool but I can't get/make one yet), I'd sell my HHKB straight away.
With Filco it's all consistent, keyboard is very well made, stock keycaps are no better than QFR (i mean you can feel they're cheap, but they look and work ok) but you can replace them with excellent ones, better than Topre for relatively low cost and Filco + nice PBT caps will still cost half price of Realforce :)

If you have the JP/JIS variant of the HHKB (this may also very well extend right onto Realforce JIS keyboard for instance as well but I am not sure) the spacebar is not likely to shine any faster than a full sized spacebar. It was said before the JIS spacebar (yes that exact puny spacebar that people loathe) is not made of ABS but PBT.

About the nice PBT caps for Cherry MX, that is another one small bad thing about them featured on many boards. When people want durability at an affordable price they find PBT caps are rare than ABS. That said the majority of the Topre boards are using PBT. Even though Topre boards are not as expanse as Cherry MX range, it seems as though more thought has been taken into Topre boards. Also, the majority of the Topre boards comes with sublimation printing on top of PBT. Realforce also offers lasered printing but the majority still remails sublimation. All modern HHKB are sublimated.

I am not taking this out specifically on you but I thought there were some things notable in what you said that I couldn't let go of.

On a last but a very minor note, it is inevitable that rubber domes will stiffen over time. At the same time it is not like there is nothing that cannot be done to counteract (temporarily) the stiffening. It was once said that HHKB Pro are the professional end of keyboards designed for those professionals in mind rather than those looking to make the most out of some high end equipment and thinking they would last an eternity. I have here, a pair of Sony MDR-7506 studio monitors. These were once heralded as professional choice for audio reproduction by professionals within the audio realm. Now these pair of cans have leather sort of like wrapping (more like faux leather imo but anyway), and throughout over use I have noticed these leather started peeling off slowly eventually leading to what is now just some simple foam padding. I do admit it is a bit of a pity that the nice bit of leather that was once wrapped around it has now largely disappeeared but is it something that I can count as something that I would regret with my purchase? no. How does this relate to Topre boards stiffening over time? think about professionals whom probably would not be hanging onto the same piece of stuff over great periods of time and even if they would, they wouldn't be moaning about the said product that has loss its appeal.

Professional equipment at the end of the day does not necessarily mean it would last an eternity, neither does forking out lots of money for a keyboard technology would necessarily mean that you will never have any sort of issues over the use of the said product. On the other hand, whilst one has professional equipment in their hands it is best for one to embrace the quality of the said product despite of its shortcomings.

Now in response to OP, wise choice! now you will soon be able to understand what it feels like to use a Topre board. I would also do the same thing if I could (but with Cherry MX for instance) but after tasting Topre board it seems like the best idea for me is to hold out for a worthy enough Cherry MX board to contend with my Topre.

I think this post is quite wise. Yes, professional quality never means it will last much longer. It means it is of a quality that professionals appreciate. As opposed to a quality that you can put up with if you only use the keyboard 30 minutes a day.

Once in a while I am in a situation (Eg public library) where I am forced to use a rubber dome. It feels so nasty, I want to stop typing right away.

Now that's un-professional quality.

Will professional quality stuff last longer than amateur quality stuff? I think almost certainly so. Will it last for decades? Not necessarily.

Rootwyrm has a post where he talks about wearing out a Model M after several years. But his usage is scary (I think he said 30,000 words a day; my memory may be flawed).
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline Tony

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 04:27:55 »
Topre switch is similar to a very quiet Cherry brown one, but with double price.

If you have plenty of money, buy a Realforce. If not, a Filco brown is also sufficient.

You decide.
Keyboard: Filco MJ1 104 brown, Filco MJ2 87 brown, Compaq MX11800, Noppoo Choc Brown/Blue/Red, IBM Model M 1996, CMStorm Quickfire Rapid Black
Layout: Colemak experience, speed of 67wpm

Offline terran5992

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 04:48:42 »
Topre switch is similar to a very quiet Cherry brown one, but with double price.

If you have plenty of money, buy a Realforce. If not, a Filco brown is also sufficient.

You decide.

One does not simply compare topre with cherry

Listokei Custom  |  HHKB Pro 2  |  Topre Realforce 103UBH  |  Armageddon MKA-3


Offline tuxsavvy

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Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 05:24:15 »
There is always this thread for those wanting to know approximately how long Topre keyboards last before rubber starts stiffening up. To me I honestly believe such changes are subtle if anything but I'll leave that decision for the viewers to decide: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=27474.0

IMO its really awesome that instead of losing the feel of the topre swtich . The longer you use it the better it feels
I actually quite like the feel of typing on Topre after coming from a day out in gardening operating handheld machinery (like whipper snippers). Typing on my old membrane keyboard that I was using prior to HHKB made me feel even more sore as I had to hit harder but on Topre imo it feels softer to hit and therefore doesn't place that much burden on my arms, etc.

Ultimately if one is concerned about rubber stiffening, there is always the lube route, that's for sure.  ;D

+1 on Filco. Topre is a short hype :) Rubber wears out quickly, and it's got many issues like inconsistent feel (difference in weight in "uniform" keyboards is +- 15g, and you can't RMA that as that's what spec says), crappy ABS spacebar (and whatever you do to your Topre, put it in gold plated case, you will still have shiny crappy ABS space bar) and very expensive and hard to get replacement keycaps. Also if you do something to rubber under one of the keys forget about getting a replacement just for that - you will have to get whole board to fix one key :)
It does have unique feel though and if you're lucky (I somehow was with my HHKB which is quite consistent, Realforce was so inconsistent I just couldn't stand it) it's ok for some time, at least until it wears out. When worn it becomes really weird. Less used keys become heavier due to rubber stiffening, and mostly used keys become linear. I have this with my HHKB and as long as I'm using it only for travel I can live with it, but if there were any MX based 60% board with usable layout (I know GH60 is cool but I can't get/make one yet), I'd sell my HHKB straight away.
With Filco it's all consistent, keyboard is very well made, stock keycaps are no better than QFR (i mean you can feel they're cheap, but they look and work ok) but you can replace them with excellent ones, better than Topre for relatively low cost and Filco + nice PBT caps will still cost half price of Realforce :)

If you have the JP/JIS variant of the HHKB (this may also very well extend right onto Realforce JIS keyboard for instance as well but I am not sure) the spacebar is not likely to shine any faster than a full sized spacebar. It was said before the JIS spacebar (yes that exact puny spacebar that people loathe) is not made of ABS but PBT.

About the nice PBT caps for Cherry MX, that is another one small bad thing about them featured on many boards. When people want durability at an affordable price they find PBT caps are rare than ABS. That said the majority of the Topre boards are using PBT. Even though Topre boards are not as expanse as Cherry MX range, it seems as though more thought has been taken into Topre boards. Also, the majority of the Topre boards comes with sublimation printing on top of PBT. Realforce also offers lasered printing but the majority still remails sublimation. All modern HHKB are sublimated.

I am not taking this out specifically on you but I thought there were some things notable in what you said that I couldn't let go of.

On a last but a very minor note, it is inevitable that rubber domes will stiffen over time. At the same time it is not like there is nothing that cannot be done to counteract (temporarily) the stiffening. It was once said that HHKB Pro are the professional end of keyboards designed for those professionals in mind rather than those looking to make the most out of some high end equipment and thinking they would last an eternity. I have here, a pair of Sony MDR-7506 studio monitors. These were once heralded as professional choice for audio reproduction by professionals within the audio realm. Now these pair of cans have leather sort of like wrapping (more like faux leather imo but anyway), and throughout over use I have noticed these leather started peeling off slowly eventually leading to what is now just some simple foam padding. I do admit it is a bit of a pity that the nice bit of leather that was once wrapped around it has now largely disappeeared but is it something that I can count as something that I would regret with my purchase? no. How does this relate to Topre boards stiffening over time? think about professionals whom probably would not be hanging onto the same piece of stuff over great periods of time and even if they would, they wouldn't be moaning about the said product that has loss its appeal.

Professional equipment at the end of the day does not necessarily mean it would last an eternity, neither does forking out lots of money for a keyboard technology would necessarily mean that you will never have any sort of issues over the use of the said product. On the other hand, whilst one has professional equipment in their hands it is best for one to embrace the quality of the said product despite of its shortcomings.

Now in response to OP, wise choice! now you will soon be able to understand what it feels like to use a Topre board. I would also do the same thing if I could (but with Cherry MX for instance) but after tasting Topre board it seems like the best idea for me is to hold out for a worthy enough Cherry MX board to contend with my Topre.

I think this post is quite wise. Yes, professional quality never means it will last much longer. It means it is of a quality that professionals appreciate. As opposed to a quality that you can put up with if you only use the keyboard 30 minutes a day.

Once in a while I am in a situation (Eg public library) where I am forced to use a rubber dome. It feels so nasty, I want to stop typing right away.

Now that's un-professional quality.

Will professional quality stuff last longer than amateur quality stuff? I think almost certainly so. Will it last for decades? Not necessarily.

Rootwyrm has a post where he talks about wearing out a Model M after several years. But his usage is scary (I think he said 30,000 words a day; my memory may be flawed).
Glad someone else here agrees with me. Professional stuff by no means is cheap but at least for an average bloke, to taste the joys of professional products is something that money can only buy.

I am sure in a few years time when my HHKB starts facing some issues with rubber stiffening or the like, regardless of how I treat the situation I will never forget the joys of using HHKB even though it was costly.

As for Rootwyrm, holy #$%&'()!! I don't think I'll ever achieve 30,000 words a day but those Model M were supposed to last after several million keystrokes. The amount is way more than Cherry MX or Topre based switches and yet for one to wear Buckling Springs out like that is insanity to me  :o . To each their own I guess.
Topre switch is similar to a very quiet Cherry brown one, but with double price.

If you have plenty of money, buy a Realforce. If not, a Filco brown is also sufficient.

You decide.

One does not simply compare topre with cherry

+1 (even though I have yet to try out Cherry MX switches). I am sure there are plenty of other people that are already recommending Topre (especially silenced ones) for those who quiet keyboard in various other forum threads.

Also Realforce is not that much more expensive if you were to source it straight from Japan for instance. The only trouble is that getting through EU customs for instance would be fun. Then there's brands like Leopold FC660C or Type Heaven for those looking to get Topre on a budget. Realforce is not overpriced imo, compared to HHKB Pro (at this current rate).
HHKB Pro JP Type-S | Northgate Omnikey 101 | APC/"Clicker" F-21 (GOG3YL) | Cherry G80-5000 HAMDE

僕の日本語が下手です。我的中文也一樣爛。

Offline Belfong

  • Posts: 5217
  • Location: Malaysia
Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 07:21:02 »
My opinion?
Satisfy your Topre curiosity. You only live once!
 

Offline zoolzoo

  • Posts: 642
  • Location: NYS
Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 26 November 2013, 11:33:01 »
Since Christmas is coming up, I will most likely be buying a new keyboard as my Filco Majestouch 2 has some sticky keys.
I am currently looking at getting another Filco TKL with browns or blues.
However, I have enough money to get the realforce 88u with topre switches which I hear everyone loves so much.
Should I spend the extra money to get the Realforce instead of the Filco?

If you are going to buy a whole new Filco to replace your Filco with a couple "sticky keys", it might be easier to just replace the defective switches no? That being said, there's never a bad excuse to get another board. :)

But if you are going to get another one, you should try something new.
Leopold FC660C, Topre 45g | CM QFR, MX Blue | Rosewill RK-9000v2, MX Red | Cherry Slimline G84-4100, ML | Ducky One2 Mini RGB, MX Red

Offline dorkvader

  • Posts: 6288
  • Location: Boston area
  • all about the "hack" in "geekhack"
Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 26 November 2013, 20:27:58 »
Rootwyrm has a post where he talks about wearing out a Model M after several years. But his usage is scary (I think he said 30,000 words a day; my memory may be flawed).
I think he said it finally broke after about two billion keystrokes (across the entire keyboard). Keep in mind that he did not consider easy things like bolt modding it as it "breaking". Your mileage may vary.
Edit: here's the link
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23843.msg450603#msg450603

Keep in mind hall effect switches are rated for 30 billion keypresses. I have another one coming in the mail.

Thanks for all the help guys,
I will get the RF 88u and hope that one of the repair shops near me can fix the keyboard.
That way I can basically get both the keyboards and it will only cost like £15 extra
I'm worried about this somewhat. Because capacitive key sensing is much more complicated, it might not be easy to fix the keyboard. (Of course, as a hardcore DIY'er I think that everything is fixable) depending on what is broken on it of course.
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 November 2013, 20:35:46 by dorkvader »

Offline SUPER432

  • Posts: 58
Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 27 November 2013, 02:10:19 »
I recommend the Topre, at least to try it out.  The nice thing about RF boards and Topre in general is that they tend to hold decent resale value if you decide its just not for you.  I bought the Type Heaven to minimize the up front costs and I found I like the feel quite a bit and will most likely be buying either a RF or HHKB in the near future.

This is how I feel also - it's different enough that it's worth trying out.

It's unfortunate that the price of entry is rather high, but again you can recoup most of the costs by putting the board back onto the market.

My opinion?
Satisfy your Topre curiosity. You only live once!


Is this a new thing? YOLO TOPRE

Offline tuxsavvy

  • Posts: 441
  • 白HHKBの魔法使い
Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 27 November 2013, 09:04:39 »
Rootwyrm has a post where he talks about wearing out a Model M after several years. But his usage is scary (I think he said 30,000 words a day; my memory may be flawed).
I think he said it finally broke after about two billion keystrokes (across the entire keyboard). Keep in mind that he did not consider easy things like bolt modding it as it "breaking". Your mileage may vary.
Edit: here's the link
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23843.msg450603#msg450603

Keep in mind hall effect switches are rated for 30 billion keypresses. I have another one coming in the mail.
Thanks for the link, that is also partly why hall effect switches should make a come back into the consumer realm. They're that insanely reliable (when used properly of course) that will probably last an average typist their entire lifetime and yet still be going strong. I have also read that the hall effect switches are linear as well which should also be good for gaming if need be.

I sort of wonder though if hall effect switches based keyboards require much more force than Cherry MX? or less (as in similar to Topre sort of feel)?

I recommend the Topre, at least to try it out.  The nice thing about RF boards and Topre in general is that they tend to hold decent resale value if you decide its just not for you.  I bought the Type Heaven to minimize the up front costs and I found I like the feel quite a bit and will most likely be buying either a RF or HHKB in the near future.

This is how I feel also - it's different enough that it's worth trying out.

It's unfortunate that the price of entry is rather high, but again you can recoup most of the costs by putting the board back onto the market.
I personally do not believe the entry price of a Topre is really all that high, it maybe slightly higher than your average Cherry MX boards that you can pick up from a store but it is not excessively high.

The only real exception as I have been wanting to point out a couple of times is that if one wants to buy HHKB Pro. HHKB Pro is probably a real exception. There are Topre boards like Realforce if sourced overseas (direct from Japan that is) which may work out cheaper. There is that Leopold FC660C and if you have a real concern for budget there is always that Type Heaven.

Apart from that if one resides in the EU for instance, then they would be footing a heavy import tax for just one Topre board. It probably is not so much true to the case if one were living in US for instance where the import tax laws are more lax.

My opinion?
Satisfy your Topre curiosity. You only live once!


Is this a new thing? YOLO TOPRE

There's lots of doubters of Topre, calling it expensive, rare and even unreliable. If one has the budget to afford a Topre and has never tried a Topre before, why not give it a shot? At least once trying out something first hand they will then know what it feels like rather than to sit back and contemplate on a fancy keyboard switch.
 
HHKB Pro JP Type-S | Northgate Omnikey 101 | APC/"Clicker" F-21 (GOG3YL) | Cherry G80-5000 HAMDE

僕の日本語が下手です。我的中文也一樣爛。

Offline Hellmark

  • Posts: 349
  • Location: Maryland Heights, Mo, USA
Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 27 November 2013, 09:17:11 »
Topre were rated to 20 million keypresses, and I heard that they have upped that to 50 million - so same as MX.
Stiffening of the rubber has nothing to do with the number of keypresses, but rather the age. And even with stiffer rubber, it can still be used.

Offline SUPER432

  • Posts: 58
Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 27 November 2013, 18:58:13 »
I personally do not believe the entry price of a Topre is really all that high, it maybe slightly higher than your average Cherry MX boards that you can pick up from a store but it is not excessively high.

The only real exception as I have been wanting to point out a couple of times is that if one wants to buy HHKB Pro. HHKB Pro is probably a real exception. There are Topre boards like Realforce if sourced overseas (direct from Japan that is) which may work out cheaper. There is that Leopold FC660C and if you have a real concern for budget there is always that Type Heaven.

Apart from that if one resides in the EU for instance, then they would be footing a heavy import tax for just one Topre board. It probably is not so much true to the case if one were living in US for instance where the import tax laws are more lax.

You're completely right about that. I still most strongly associate Topre with the HHKB (even though I'm typing on a Realforce 87), which has always been a high priced board, and thus my perception of Topre has always been "very expensive". Not so much true anymore, people who want to try one, should!

Offline tuxsavvy

  • Posts: 441
  • 白HHKBの魔法使い
Re: SO MANY KEYBOARDS
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 27 November 2013, 20:12:45 »
I personally do not believe the entry price of a Topre is really all that high, it maybe slightly higher than your average Cherry MX boards that you can pick up from a store but it is not excessively high.

The only real exception as I have been wanting to point out a couple of times is that if one wants to buy HHKB Pro. HHKB Pro is probably a real exception. There are Topre boards like Realforce if sourced overseas (direct from Japan that is) which may work out cheaper. There is that Leopold FC660C and if you have a real concern for budget there is always that Type Heaven.

Apart from that if one resides in the EU for instance, then they would be footing a heavy import tax for just one Topre board. It probably is not so much true to the case if one were living in US for instance where the import tax laws are more lax.

You're completely right about that. I still most strongly associate Topre with the HHKB (even though I'm typing on a Realforce 87), which has always been a high priced board, and thus my perception of Topre has always been "very expensive". Not so much true anymore, people who want to try one, should!
I can't and won't blame you for that. A lot of people associate HHKB Pro in general as a costly keyboard, the fact that it comes with Topre switches still doesn't justify all that much on the price of these specific keyboards. Adding more fuel to the fire, it has been noted that HHKB were (and most likely still are) used by notable people making HHKB Pro a somewhat really tantalising sort of keyboard to buy if one has the money to spend. One thing that I like to add is the materials used in the key cap making process. It has always been PBT for the majority of the Topre keyboards. Also the legend printing has been mostly sublimated which means that generally the letters would most likely last forever. This to me demonstrates that it seems Topre manufacturers generally do take more into consideration for their products and also maybe to justify their price.

At the same time, I also believe there needs to be more manufacturers trying out the Topre switch. The lack of exposure for an average consumer may give them (Topre switches) wrong images as well as PFU's desires with expensive price tag unjustification seems more absurd (in other words, a competitor willing to take on 60% board with Topre won't hurt imo).
HHKB Pro JP Type-S | Northgate Omnikey 101 | APC/"Clicker" F-21 (GOG3YL) | Cherry G80-5000 HAMDE

僕の日本語が下手です。我的中文也一樣爛。