Author Topic: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F  (Read 2354843 times)

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Offline darkcruix

  • Posts: 62
  • Location: Germany
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1700 on: Fri, 01 June 2018, 00:12:37 »
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way!  I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

  • Posts: 388
  • Location: Columbia, SC
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1701 on: Fri, 01 June 2018, 00:56:13 »
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way!  I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!

ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.

(Attachment Link)
Absolute mad man.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline ag36

  • Posts: 179
  • Location: London, UK
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1702 on: Fri, 01 June 2018, 18:47:45 »
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way!  I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!

ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.

(Attachment Link)

Niiiice! Once it's in production I'll order a extra model F from you. Already placed order for a F77 a while ago.
Model M*5, SSK*4, M13 black*1, Model F XT*1, AT*1 F107*1, Unicomp*1, 3278 *1, Leopold FC750R*2, 980M*2 FC980C*1 Filco majestouch 2 TKL*1, Cooler Master MasterKeys S PBT*1, Uniqey Q100*2, Ducky pocket*1, KBD75*2, KBD19X*2, HHKB pro 2*1, Type-S*1 Topre Realforce RGB*1, 108 all 30g*1, numpad*1, 87U*1 Dell AT101W*2, Alps64*2, V80 matias quiet click*2, Quiet liner *1, WYSE ASCII *1

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1703 on: Sat, 02 June 2018, 13:46:17 »
great ag36.

On the subject of the springs, I just replied to a question on the project web site regarding the goals of the spring research and prototyping - please feel free to see the reply below.

The springs definitely change over time but not as much as you’d think in some examples.

The goal is to get the spring prototypes to sound close to what an original Model F would have sounded like fresh off the production line, not an exact match to what they sound like today where corrosion and humidity have definitely affected the sound of the springs (more so for the poorly stored Model F’s in humid-damp places than for many of the F’s in my collection).

I have a home movie of myself typing (for the first time!) on the family’s Model F XT keyboard from our IBM PC.  Back then these keyboards were much newer.  I have reviewed the sound of our Model F.  (We no longer have the computer or keyboard though).  It did not sound much different to many of the Model F keyboards today – still with a characteristic buckling upon actuation and a small amount of reverb.  The reverb is in line with some of my best condition Model F keyboards today.  No two Model F keyboards sound exactly alike; I am aiming for my favorite original Model F, a 1984 F122.  With age the springs should even more closely approach the older springs.


Some of my earlier forum postings on the springs:
Updates on the spring research – samples matched original XT springs!
Over the past week I reviewed the new spring samples as well as all the old samples.
In summary I was able to match almost perfectly a spring sample to an original IBM spring pulled from an XT! I classify the archetypical spring as having some middle-pitched ringing typical of a Model F, but not too much (characteristic of a more well-used Model F keyboard or one with significant spring discoloration/corrosion). The original Model F springs have a wide range of sound – many in their current state are more higher pitched than what I’d like.
The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year (don’t worry I won’t be holding up the project to age the springs!). Samples I rejected in Dec. 2016 now have that perfect sound between loud ringing and no ringing – who would have known! Not even the American wire held up to the Japanese metal in terms of sound. The Chinese wire had the highest pitch, followed by the American wire (still too high), and then the Japanese wire which matched the ringing pitch.
I have compared many original XT springs from different keyboards and determined that the ones that ringed the most tended to be corroded/dulled but not rusted reddish brown. So I expect the springs will emit a bit more ringing (what I prefer to call the sound after a key is released – not including the plate reverberation sound) in the years to come. For now I expect the new Model F keyboards to have a mild ring matching an XT stored properly and with little to no corrosion. I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!
I also performed some accelerated corrosion/rust tests on some of the sample springs. Generally a bit of discoloration/corrosion on the springs is not an issue for sound or performance, but reddish rust seems to add some tizz/squeaking to the springs in some cases, like with original XT springs. The production springs will have a protective finish.
Next step is to get Japanese wire spring samples made with the current supplier and with the updated/confirmed material choice from the lab. Key molds, inner foam, and inner assembly plates are still in production and expected to finish in a few weeks so we are not bottlenecking anything by getting things right with the springs.

I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China, but please keep in mind that every Model F keyboard in my own experience has a unique sound and feel, meaning a reviewer’s sample Model F has little chance of matching the sound of another original Model F or of one of these reproductions (the repro’s should sound similar to each other given they are all new and from the same early bird manufacturing batch). Given that, many a reviewer will certainly say something like “The sound is not the same as my original Model F.” Even the thickness of the inner foam and its state (disintegrating older foam or replacement newer foam) plays a role in the reverberation (thicker foam in my experience makes the keyboard quieter and less reverberant/musical). Two AT’s in my collection sound different from each other and from an XT. Two of my F77s sound different from each other and other F’s. My F107s sound different than my F122s. Even one of my 1985 F122s sounds different from my 6110344 from mid-1984. And it’s not just the sound – the state and type of springs also plays a factor in the typing feel/experience – a long time Model F user may prefer the worn down springs in his original F because of the reduced actuation force, compared to a new F (my new F’s take some time to break the springs in so that they are even smoother). Maybe a reviewer prefers quieter keyboards or keyboards at a $100 price point, which would rule out a new Model F.

Offline LightningXI

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1704 on: Sat, 02 June 2018, 14:24:01 »
great ag36.

On the subject of the springs, I just replied to a question on the project web site regarding the goals of the spring research and prototyping - please feel free to see the reply below.

The springs definitely change over time but not as much as you’d think in some examples.

The goal is to get the spring prototypes to sound close to what an original Model F would have sounded like fresh off the production line, not an exact match to what they sound like today where corrosion and humidity have definitely affected the sound of the springs (more so for the poorly stored Model F’s in humid-damp places than for many of the F’s in my collection).

I have a home movie of myself typing (for the first time!) on the family’s Model F XT keyboard from our IBM PC.  Back then these keyboards were much newer.  I have reviewed the sound of our Model F.  (We no longer have the computer or keyboard though).  It did not sound much different to many of the Model F keyboards today – still with a characteristic buckling upon actuation and a small amount of reverb.  The reverb is in line with some of my best condition Model F keyboards today.  No two Model F keyboards sound exactly alike; I am aiming for my favorite original Model F, a 1984 F122.  With age the springs should even more closely approach the older springs.


Some of my earlier forum postings on the springs:
Updates on the spring research – samples matched original XT springs!
Over the past week I reviewed the new spring samples as well as all the old samples.
In summary I was able to match almost perfectly a spring sample to an original IBM spring pulled from an XT! I classify the archetypical spring as having some middle-pitched ringing typical of a Model F, but not too much (characteristic of a more well-used Model F keyboard or one with significant spring discoloration/corrosion). The original Model F springs have a wide range of sound – many in their current state are more higher pitched than what I’d like.
The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year (don’t worry I won’t be holding up the project to age the springs!). Samples I rejected in Dec. 2016 now have that perfect sound between loud ringing and no ringing – who would have known! Not even the American wire held up to the Japanese metal in terms of sound. The Chinese wire had the highest pitch, followed by the American wire (still too high), and then the Japanese wire which matched the ringing pitch.
I have compared many original XT springs from different keyboards and determined that the ones that ringed the most tended to be corroded/dulled but not rusted reddish brown. So I expect the springs will emit a bit more ringing (what I prefer to call the sound after a key is released – not including the plate reverberation sound) in the years to come. For now I expect the new Model F keyboards to have a mild ring matching an XT stored properly and with little to no corrosion. I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!
I also performed some accelerated corrosion/rust tests on some of the sample springs. Generally a bit of discoloration/corrosion on the springs is not an issue for sound or performance, but reddish rust seems to add some tizz/squeaking to the springs in some cases, like with original XT springs. The production springs will have a protective finish.
Next step is to get Japanese wire spring samples made with the current supplier and with the updated/confirmed material choice from the lab. Key molds, inner foam, and inner assembly plates are still in production and expected to finish in a few weeks so we are not bottlenecking anything by getting things right with the springs.

I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China, but please keep in mind that every Model F keyboard in my own experience has a unique sound and feel, meaning a reviewer’s sample Model F has little chance of matching the sound of another original Model F or of one of these reproductions (the repro’s should sound similar to each other given they are all new and from the same early bird manufacturing batch). Given that, many a reviewer will certainly say something like “The sound is not the same as my original Model F.” Even the thickness of the inner foam and its state (disintegrating older foam or replacement newer foam) plays a role in the reverberation (thicker foam in my experience makes the keyboard quieter and less reverberant/musical). Two AT’s in my collection sound different from each other and from an XT. Two of my F77s sound different from each other and other F’s. My F107s sound different than my F122s. Even one of my 1985 F122s sounds different from my 6110344 from mid-1984. And it’s not just the sound – the state and type of springs also plays a factor in the typing feel/experience – a long time Model F user may prefer the worn down springs in his original F because of the reduced actuation force, compared to a new F (my new F’s take some time to break the springs in so that they are even smoother). Maybe a reviewer prefers quieter keyboards or keyboards at a $100 price point, which would rule out a new Model F.

Absolutely fantastic news on the springs!!! I am so excited for progress in the project!


Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1846
  • Location: Italy
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1705 on: Sat, 02 June 2018, 16:47:39 »
You can change the properties of steel with a heat treatment. The fact that - in this case - waiting a year changes the properties of the steel is really a strange fact. There may be the release of some autotensions, but if this is true, the steel will modify even more with use, so this automatically makes absolutely vane any search for perfection.
I've already said the same things many months ago, but I don't remember if ellipse noticed it or not.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 June 2018, 06:36:46 by Giorgio »

Offline ag36

  • Posts: 179
  • Location: London, UK
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1706 on: Sun, 03 June 2018, 05:34:25 »
Plated spring would likely have very different sound and feel too :).
Model M*5, SSK*4, M13 black*1, Model F XT*1, AT*1 F107*1, Unicomp*1, 3278 *1, Leopold FC750R*2, 980M*2 FC980C*1 Filco majestouch 2 TKL*1, Cooler Master MasterKeys S PBT*1, Uniqey Q100*2, Ducky pocket*1, KBD75*2, KBD19X*2, HHKB pro 2*1, Type-S*1 Topre Realforce RGB*1, 108 all 30g*1, numpad*1, 87U*1 Dell AT101W*2, Alps64*2, V80 matias quiet click*2, Quiet liner *1, WYSE ASCII *1

Offline ag36

  • Posts: 179
  • Location: London, UK
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1707 on: Mon, 11 June 2018, 13:31:10 »
Once the keycaps are ready I guess there's another fight with the dyesubbing and legends, bleeding, kerning, and biggest problem of all is the IBM helvetica font. At least the font on model m not same as any helvetica font sold online and the reason why unicomp changed their font might be due to licensing issue.
Model M*5, SSK*4, M13 black*1, Model F XT*1, AT*1 F107*1, Unicomp*1, 3278 *1, Leopold FC750R*2, 980M*2 FC980C*1 Filco majestouch 2 TKL*1, Cooler Master MasterKeys S PBT*1, Uniqey Q100*2, Ducky pocket*1, KBD75*2, KBD19X*2, HHKB pro 2*1, Type-S*1 Topre Realforce RGB*1, 108 all 30g*1, numpad*1, 87U*1 Dell AT101W*2, Alps64*2, V80 matias quiet click*2, Quiet liner *1, WYSE ASCII *1

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1708 on: Mon, 11 June 2018, 23:40:50 »
Spring Success!  Out of the 12 samples we have one match that will be approved for production!  The search is finally complete after several dozen unique spring variations over the past few years.

I would say it is as nice or even nicer (less worn out) than my original gold standard reference (off my 1984 6110344 F122).  It has a sharp click followed by a solid resonance that is not too high in pitch, not too low in volume, and not too short in duration.  I was surprised the match was so close to not only any original Model F spring but to my reference spring/flipper.

I hope to bring the new springs (along with the keyboard prototypes) to the NY meetup on Saturday and to my Bay Area (CA) Model F meetup I am trying to set up on July 7.

Regarding the key options discussion over on DT, yes the other CM style keys and number pad keys without sublegends like "Home" will be offered but they will likely ship later/separately so we do not delay things even more.  Feel free to PM me if interested in adding.

Fortunately ag36, GH member Zed drew the legends himself and they are an excellent match to the originals.  We will need to test them and adjust for bleed, etc. after producing dye sub samples on the production keys.

Offline Atredl

  • Posts: 805
  • Location: SoCal
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1709 on: Tue, 12 June 2018, 01:38:09 »
Spring Success!  Out of the 12 samples we have one match that will be approved for production!  The search is finally complete after several dozen unique spring variations over the past few years.

I would say it is as nice or even nicer (less worn out) than my original gold standard reference (off my 1984 6110344 F122).  It has a sharp click followed by a solid resonance that is not too high in pitch, not too low in volume, and not too short in duration.  I was surprised the match was so close to not only any original Model F spring but to my reference spring/flipper.

I hope to bring the new springs (along with the keyboard prototypes) to the NY meetup on Saturday and to my Bay Area (CA) Model F meetup I am trying to set up on July 7.

Regarding the key options discussion over on DT, yes the other CM style keys and number pad keys without sublegends like "Home" will be offered but they will likely ship later/separately so we do not delay things even more.  Feel free to PM me if interested in adding.

Fortunately ag36, GH member Zed drew the legends himself and they are an excellent match to the originals.  We will need to test them and adjust for bleed, etc. after producing dye sub samples on the production keys.
Really excited that the springs are chosen! One less item on the list. Now to tackle those keycaps!

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1846
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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1710 on: Tue, 12 June 2018, 04:30:15 »
Please consider to add also the option for a more muted spring. While this is a "philological" project, many have asked to have a quieter option.

Offline ag36

  • Posts: 179
  • Location: London, UK
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1711 on: Tue, 12 June 2018, 07:06:03 »
Spring Success!  Out of the 12 samples we have one match that will be approved for production!  The search is finally complete after several dozen unique spring variations over the past few years.

I would say it is as nice or even nicer (less worn out) than my original gold standard reference (off my 1984 6110344 F122).  It has a sharp click followed by a solid resonance that is not too high in pitch, not too low in volume, and not too short in duration.  I was surprised the match was so close to not only any original Model F spring but to my reference spring/flipper.

I hope to bring the new springs (along with the keyboard prototypes) to the NY meetup on Saturday and to my Bay Area (CA) Model F meetup I am trying to set up on July 7.

Regarding the key options discussion over on DT, yes the other CM style keys and number pad keys without sublegends like "Home" will be offered but they will likely ship later/separately so we do not delay things even more.  Feel free to PM me if interested in adding.

Fortunately ag36, GH member Zed drew the legends himself and they are an excellent match to the originals.  We will need to test them and adjust for bleed, etc. after producing dye sub samples on the production keys.

Wow, sounds fantastic!
Model M*5, SSK*4, M13 black*1, Model F XT*1, AT*1 F107*1, Unicomp*1, 3278 *1, Leopold FC750R*2, 980M*2 FC980C*1 Filco majestouch 2 TKL*1, Cooler Master MasterKeys S PBT*1, Uniqey Q100*2, Ducky pocket*1, KBD75*2, KBD19X*2, HHKB pro 2*1, Type-S*1 Topre Realforce RGB*1, 108 all 30g*1, numpad*1, 87U*1 Dell AT101W*2, Alps64*2, V80 matias quiet click*2, Quiet liner *1, WYSE ASCII *1

Offline DasGnome

  • Posts: 160
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1712 on: Tue, 12 June 2018, 09:33:41 »
Please consider to add also the option for a more muted spring. While this is a "philological" project, many have asked to have a quieter option.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, but I think we should let this first round ship first at least to prevent more delays. After it's all done, offer some separate spring packs.

Offline vewy_nice

  • Posts: 312
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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1713 on: Tue, 12 June 2018, 10:15:16 »
I requested seperate spring packs with "quieter" springs back on page 33. I'm not sure if it's in the cards.

I'll just echo again: I think it'd be a neat idea at some point.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1714 on: Tue, 12 June 2018, 23:31:36 »
New key samples should be here later this week!  Hoping for the final few keys to be within tolerance and be approved for production, and for the colors to be correct.

If the springs finish production this month, assembly can possibly start next month.

Everyone will be getting the same springs but I'll consider offering a quiet spring add on pack during the final round (shipping separately only) now that I know which variations have quieter reverb (the click sound is still the same no matter the spring).

Offline quiou

  • Posts: 2
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1715 on: Thu, 14 June 2018, 11:33:52 »
Aaaah ! Things seem to have gone at a faster pace, lately. Great news !

Offline hoggy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1716 on: Fri, 15 June 2018, 01:08:45 »
Excellent work Ellipse! 
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1717 on: Fri, 15 June 2018, 16:25:05 »
The new key samples arrived!

They achieved a perfect match to the gray/pebble XT key samples I sent them! (even IBM had some color variance in the pearl and pebble over the years so this will not match all IBM keys)

The 60% dark gray samples also arrived and are shown below.  I think it's the best we can do to have a legible legend but please let me know what you think.

They fixed some of the out of tolerance issues from the prior batch but still need to make a few more adjustments on some of the larger keys and take care of the pearl and Industrial SSK Blue colors.

Can you tell all the new keys apart from the originals in the photo below?  Hint:  The stepped key is original!

Also pictured is the approved spring on a production flipper (the spring not only sounds great but it also matches the dull gray appearance of many of the originals!) and production barrels that were completed before.  As always the colors are not 100% accurate in these photos.

198138-0
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 June 2018, 16:27:16 by Ellipse »

Offline LightningXI

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1718 on: Fri, 15 June 2018, 16:33:04 »
The new key samples arrived!

They achieved a perfect match to the gray/pebble XT key samples I sent them! (even IBM had some color variance in the pearl and pebble over the years so this will not match all IBM keys)

The 60% dark gray samples also arrived and are shown below.  I think it's the best we can do to have a legible legend but please let me know what you think.

They fixed some of the out of tolerance issues from the prior batch but still need to make a few more adjustments on some of the larger keys and take care of the pearl and Industrial SSK Blue colors.

Can you tell all the new keys apart from the originals in the photo below?  Hint:  The stepped key is original!

Also pictured is the approved spring on a production flipper (the spring not only sounds great but it also matches the dull gray appearance of many of the originals!) and production barrels that were completed before.  As always the colors are not 100% accurate in these photos.

(Attachment Link)
Wow. Those look fantastic, and the color matching is pretty much spot-on.

Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk


Offline romevi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1719 on: Fri, 15 June 2018, 17:00:17 »
Loving the progress!


Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1720 on: Fri, 15 June 2018, 20:04:29 »
They look great to me. Would you post a picture of some blue samples next to the gray samples?

Just to check: we can order complete sets of the blue color and the gray color?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1721 on: Fri, 15 June 2018, 20:07:36 »
Still waiting on the blue and pearl colors.  Yes you can order full blue and gray sets.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1722 on: Sat, 16 June 2018, 18:07:51 »
Nice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today!  Great turnout! 

Offline LightningXI

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1723 on: Sat, 16 June 2018, 18:09:59 »
Nice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today!  Great turnout!
Every time I get to see your samples, I get excited about these coming soon. I hope we can see the finish line soon!

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Offline darkcruix

  • Posts: 62
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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1724 on: Sun, 17 June 2018, 02:46:46 »
Nice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today!  Great turnout!

I hope someone made photos (or even videos) and can share. I wish I could be there.

Offline xueyao

  • Posts: 39
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1725 on: Sun, 17 June 2018, 06:29:45 »
Nice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today!  Great turnout!

I hope someone made photos (or even videos) and can share. I wish I could be there.
Second that! If somebody took vid or pics of the boards, please put it online. Dying to see what the latest revision looks like

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


Offline Lagomorph

  • Posts: 20
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1726 on: Sun, 17 June 2018, 07:54:01 »
There's a reddit thread about the meetup with some photos (unfortunately, not a lot of good shots of the F's from what I've seen so far).

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8rnwdz/photos_from_the_2018_nyc_mechanical_keyboard/


Offline pchatterjee

  • Posts: 50
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1727 on: Sun, 17 June 2018, 15:50:07 »
Pix look great to me.

Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!

Offline OracleKev

  • Posts: 418
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1728 on: Sun, 17 June 2018, 19:48:19 »
The fit between top and bottom housings seem little off - gaps and the bottom seems bigger.
Maybe it's picture or prototype thing?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1729 on: Sun, 17 June 2018, 20:26:39 »
It is the angle of the photo. 

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

  • Posts: 388
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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1730 on: Sun, 17 June 2018, 21:02:27 »
Pix look great to me.

Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
There's no reason to make the F107
It's far easier to get one of those compared to an F62 or especially an F77.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline OracleKev

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1731 on: Sun, 17 June 2018, 21:40:04 »
It is the angle of the photo.

Excellent!

Offline darkcruix

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1732 on: Mon, 18 June 2018, 04:04:50 »
Pix look great to me.

Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
There's no reason to make the F107
It's far easier to get one of those compared to an F62 or especially an F77.

Well, the number of available F107 seem to shrink. I asked some of the few sellers and they all told me that the available ones are super limited and no more can be found in the wild. I try to get one since some time now and working ones are very hard to find (without even talking about the price).
Look at the F122, they are available in much higher quantity and they currently sell for US$500 and more. Seems like two factors have come into play - the demand is rising and/or the availability is dwindling.

Offline fanpeople

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1733 on: Mon, 18 June 2018, 04:47:13 »
Pix look great to me.

Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
There's no reason to make the F107
It's far easier to get one of those compared to an F62 or especially an F77.

Well, the number of available F107 seem to shrink. I asked some of the few sellers and they all told me that the available ones are super limited and no more can be found in the wild. I try to get one since some time now and working ones are very hard to find (without even talking about the price).
Look at the F122, they are available in much higher quantity and they currently sell for US$500 and more. Seems like two factors have come into play - the demand is rising and/or the availability is dwindling.

I have an f107 in pieces due to laziness, i would probebly sell it for pretty cheap if you pm me. But no guarentees it will work.

Offline jzono1

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1734 on: Tue, 19 June 2018, 17:06:38 »
The new key samples arrived!

They achieved a perfect match to the gray/pebble XT key samples I sent them! (even IBM had some color variance in the pearl and pebble over the years so this will not match all IBM keys)

The 60% dark gray samples also arrived and are shown below.  I think it's the best we can do to have a legible legend but please let me know what you think.

They fixed some of the out of tolerance issues from the prior batch but still need to make a few more adjustments on some of the larger keys and take care of the pearl and Industrial SSK Blue colors.

Can you tell all the new keys apart from the originals in the photo below?  Hint:  The stepped key is original!

Also pictured is the approved spring on a production flipper (the spring not only sounds great but it also matches the dull gray appearance of many of the originals!) and production barrels that were completed before.  As always the colors are not 100% accurate in these photos.

(Attachment Link)

Um, which is the 60% dark gray? The two large ones in the foreground? Or the nearly black small one?

(Just doublechecking - personally I don't value legend legibleness that much.)

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1735 on: Tue, 19 June 2018, 17:17:19 »
The 60% dark grey keys are in the foreground of my 6/15 post's photo.

Offline jzono1

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1736 on: Tue, 19 June 2018, 19:31:04 »
That's not what I signed up for, with the "black legends on lighter black PBT" option. :(

It looks significantly lighter than Orginative's Carbon Black that was used as an example in the interest check thread (And even that one is lighter than I prefer personally.)

Personally I feel like the one in that picture will not look good, neither in a black nor in a red case. It will make the legend very legible, but that was never the point of the dark grey option from what I understand.

Let me repeat the quote from the DA thread, that the interest thread was based on:
Quote
Yes if someone wants to track interest in black legends on lighter black PBT we'd need 20 sets to proceed but I'd be up for it as a lower priority add on set only.

Hopefully you'll understand this criticism and consider doing something about it - but if this is the color you go for I'm certain that I'm not the only one who will be disappointed.

Good legends isn't a priority with black on black keycaps - most sets keep them barely legible. To me the whole point of black legends on black keycaps is to prioritize aesthetics above functionality but still have subtle legends so that they keycaps don't look as empty as normal blank caps.

Offline Kavik

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1737 on: Tue, 19 June 2018, 19:42:01 »
That's not what I signed up for, with the "black legends on lighter black PBT" option. :(

It looks significantly lighter than Orginative's Carbon Black that was used as an example in the interest check thread (And even that one is lighter than I prefer personally.)

Personally I feel like the one in that picture will not look good, neither in a black nor in a red case. It will make the legend very legible, but that was never the point of the dark grey option from what I understand.

Let me repeat the quote from the DA thread, that the interest thread was based on:
Quote
Yes if someone wants to track interest in black legends on lighter black PBT we'd need 20 sets to proceed but I'd be up for it as a lower priority add on set only.

Hopefully you'll understand this criticism and consider doing something about it - but if this is the color you go for I'm certain that I'm not the only one who will be disappointed.

Good legends isn't a priority with black on black keycaps - most sets keep them barely legible. To me the whole point of black legends on black keycaps is to prioritize aesthetics above functionality but still have subtle legends so that they keycaps don't look as empty as normal blank caps.

I know I was one who suggested the 60% gray, but, after seeing the samples, I agree with jzono1 to some extent. The pictures from 5/11 made the 80% gray look exactly like black, which is why I thought 60% gray would be better. Maybe there is more of a difference in person that's hard to capture on camera. The 60% keys end up looking almost like standard modifier keys.

That said, I would still be happy with either one, so I'm not a hardliner either way, but I think my preference is the 80% gray if I have to choose one.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1738 on: Tue, 19 June 2018, 22:07:47 »
jzono1 in person the 60% gray keys are a close match to photos I've seen of the reference Carbon Black key set, and the Model F gray keys look great in person.  https://www.keychatter.com/2015/11/28/review-originative-carbon-black/

I agree that the photo on the Originative web site itself seems to be much less bright than many of the reviewers' photos and also the photos on Massdrop.  https://www.massdrop.com/buy/originative-carbon-black-pbt-keycap-set

For those interested, over on DT some dye sublimated 80% keys were shown (along with photos of my sample 80% keys also posted here).  The 80% gray keys are very close to black in person. https://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver-f77-industrial-model-f-s-made-this-year-t11046-3270.html#p412487

Offline jzono1

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1739 on: Wed, 20 June 2018, 13:35:06 »
Okay, seeing the other pictures of the Carbon Black set makes it a bit more understandable. With seeing the other pictures of it I'll moderate my critique a tiny bit. Also the color temperature of the gray you've chosen is spot on.

Yes - I agree that 80% probably would be too much - and I saw those pictures back when you got the first samples.

I do think that if they were a tiny bit darker that would look better. Could you get samples made with something "in-between," say closer to 70%?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1740 on: Fri, 22 June 2018, 15:50:33 »
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month! Pricing changes to reflect free US shipping

Next month marks the start of Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly!  Assembly will start with attaching over 100,000 springs to their flippers using a custom built machine (link below).

After the approval of the springs earlier this month, they have entered production.  Outside of the keys this is the final part we were waiting on.  The keys are not yet in production as a few keys in the mold need to be adjusted.

The factory will make about a thousand springs next week to start with, and then official Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly will start with the spring-flipper attacher (photos here)!

I will then inspect the quality of the first production springs on the flippers to make sure they are in line with the approved samples they provided.

Pricing changes:  free US shipping now built into item prices; same overall cost though.  I have been getting many questions on shipping, so to make things easier I have changed shipping to be free in the US and increased pricing by the amount of the original shipping charge ($21).  I’ve also disclosed shipping costs for each region on the store page and each Brand New Model F keyboard page.  International shipping has also been discounted to reflect the $21 pricing increase so that the out of pocket is the same with this change.  The accessory key sets have gone up $4 to help cover prototyping overages.  Please note that existing orders will not have to change to reflect the new pricing.  Shipping Rates — US: Free. Canada: $39.92. Europe/Asia/South America: $49.30. Australia/New Zealand: $69.59.


jzono1 I have approved the 60% keys as they achieved our objective to match the original reference Carbon Black set.  Please ask me after the first round finishes and I will consider other colors if there is a MOQ (about 20-30 sets). 

Offline Kevadu

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1741 on: Fri, 22 June 2018, 16:10:24 »
Holy crap it's actually happening!

Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1742 on: Fri, 22 June 2018, 16:16:26 »
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month! Pricing changes to reflect free US shipping

Next month marks the start of Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly!  Assembly will start with attaching over 100,000 springs to their flippers using a custom built machine (link below).

After the approval of the springs earlier this month, they have entered production.  Outside of the keys this is the final part we were waiting on.  The keys are not yet in production as a few keys in the mold need to be adjusted.

The factory will make about a thousand springs next week to start with, and then official Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly will start with the spring-flipper attacher (photos here)!

I will then inspect the quality of the first production springs on the flippers to make sure they are in line with the approved samples they provided.

Pricing changes:  free US shipping now built into item prices; same overall cost though.  I have been getting many questions on shipping, so to make things easier I have changed shipping to be free in the US and increased pricing by the amount of the original shipping charge ($21).  I’ve also disclosed shipping costs for each region on the store page and each Brand New Model F keyboard page.  International shipping has also been discounted to reflect the $21 pricing increase so that the out of pocket is the same with this change.  The accessory key sets have gone up $4 to help cover prototyping overages.  Please note that existing orders will not have to change to reflect the new pricing.  Shipping Rates — US: Free. Canada: $39.92. Europe/Asia/South America: $49.30. Australia/New Zealand: $69.59.


jzono1 I have approved the 60% keys as they achieved our objective to match the original reference Carbon Black set.  Please ask me after the first round finishes and I will consider other colors if there is a MOQ (about 20-30 sets).

Great progress!

Do you have any further update/information on what the status of ordering/purchasing will be?
TMO50 | Jane V2 CE Incoming | Realforce 87u 55g | Aergo

Aergo design and build log: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103681.msg2840918#msg2840918

Offline sundin

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1743 on: Fri, 22 June 2018, 18:03:34 »
International shipping has also been discounted
Marvelous, i assume that will change nothing for the older payers.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 June 2018, 18:07:30 by sundin »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1744 on: Fri, 22 June 2018, 18:17:32 »
Acereconkeys - you can still place a new order as I have ordered extras myself of all the variations to minimize further delays.

sundin correct - there is no change to existing orders and the new international orders will have the same total cost (keyboard + shipping).

Offline jzono1

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1745 on: Sat, 23 June 2018, 05:45:15 »
jzono1 I have approved the 60% keys as they achieved our objective to match the original reference Carbon Black set.  Please ask me after the first round finishes and I will consider other colors if there is a MOQ (about 20-30 sets).

Fair enough - just asking.

With the communication from you regarding that set, I feel like I'm not getting exactly what I signed up for - and I'm unsure of how well it'll go with the true red case.

Can I change one of my two ordered grey sets to unprinted black? The information both here and in the thread about the keys did not accurately reflect the look you were going for - only when I googled for *other* pictures of the Carbon Black set than the one linked directly back when the interest check thread was made did I see this.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1746 on: Sat, 23 June 2018, 08:28:19 »
ok I have made the updates!  I sent you a note in the order updates - feel free to reply over email.

Offline krispy

  • Posts: 60
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1747 on: Sat, 23 June 2018, 16:33:54 »
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month! 


Offline romevi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1748 on: Sun, 24 June 2018, 00:15:54 »
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month! 


Ha ha; excellent clip to use.

Offline krispy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1749 on: Sun, 24 June 2018, 15:09:01 »
 :thumb: