Author Topic: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise  (Read 5363 times)

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Offline JohnZD

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Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 07:47:22 »
Hi folks.

This topic was posted almost identically on 'Deskthority', a forum on which I have read silently for a few years.

Same goes for this place here, which has a slightly different spirit, but of course shares the same kind of madness.

All this might be an indicator for my slightly geekish tendencies, especially when it comes to HIDs, but also in other fields - maybe driving a sluggishly restored Delorean DMC12 as a semi daily driver might also count.

Speaking of sluggish restorations: today I have a valid reason for my first post.

On Sunday, I got an ancient looking laptop for a song, which was non functional and had a completely dissolved NiCd-Battery which hat leaked all over the lower casing. The unit turned on, but was instantly emanating the dusgusting smell of burning electrolytes, and the screen was completly blurry and dark.

Although this little thing - a Bondwell B200 with german ISO keyboard - was a very cheap device at its time in the late 80s, built with an 80C88 processor that was outdated even in 1989 and made from extremely flimsy plastic that is so brittle after a few decades that it literally disintegrates under your hands if you touch it roughly, there is something about the keyboard that is quite noteworthy: it is clicky and feels simply fantastic.

It is by far the best keyboard I have ever touched, at least to my taste, and compared to white complicated Alps and normal Cherry MX blues. The switches are Cherry MX dark blue, except for the return and space keys, which are amber Omron switches.

Today, I cleaned the case and disassembled the little sucker. Inside I found the usual capacitor mess, so the soldering began.

After a thorough capacitor change and the a hasty reassemly, it started up flawlessly and asked for a boot disk, which I created using an old 486 hooked up via shugart bus to a TEAC floppy from my good old Amiga 500. It took 3 hours and was horrible, but finally worked.

I found out via another forum that the keyboard itself would be very hard to mate with a Teensy or any other microcontroller based solution due to its weird matrix, so I did not even try anything like this.

While many guys here might have voted for harvesting the switches, I decided to go down a different path that some of you might appreciate. However, I had the impression that many members here are more switch oriented, while the Deskthority are more into keeping vintage devices in their original state. Please correct me if I had a wrong impression.

Anyways, I set up a Raspberry Pi Zero W with Raspbian lite, installed TCPser and a few text based browsers (Lynx etc.) and a telnet daemon. Then I added an adapter from USB to RS232 and a nullmodem cable.

After rebuilding the Bondwell's battery pack, which consisted of six 'C' cells in a row, I was able to get the 5 volts for the Raspberry from it with little effort, and as one of the 2 720K floppy drives was not working anyway, I decided to put all this stuff inside the case instead of the right side FDD.

After adding a small footprint terminal program (CONEX) to the boot disk via Laplink (the old 486 was already back in the basement) and adding it to Autoexec.bat, the unit now directly boots into the terminal and logs on to the PI via Telnet. Interestingly, transmission works flawlessly up to 115200 baud, which is not common for a XT system .

The result is the best Linux terminal I ever had, fast enough for most command line stuff, including quick google searches and controlling my home automation if I was so inclined. Even mail, taking notes and reading news sites works quite well.

It runs for about 3 hours on 6 eneloop 'C' cells, with activated wLAN and bluetooth on the pi side.

The only remaining thing to do is to route a flat ribbon cable with a soldered DB25-connector to the inside in order to get rid of the big ass serial cable on the back.

174650-0 Google goes 80s

174652-1 Dark blue beauty

174654-2 Ugly little things

174656-3 Capacitor incontinence

174658-4 Geekhack goes back in time
« Last Edit: Mon, 31 July 2017, 08:49:10 by JohnZD »

Offline JohnZD

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 07:49:33 »
Dammit, the pictures are upside down again, although I changed the orientation manually in 'preview'. This must be a Mac thing; sorry for that.

Offline Coreda

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 08:20:15 »
Dammit, the pictures are upside down again, although I changed the orientation manually in 'preview'. This must be a Mac thing; sorry for that.

They actually load in the correct orientation when opened in a new tab, and curiously download from bottom-to-top. Interesting find! Doesn't look like that particular model appears yet in the Deskthority wiki about Cherry Dark Blues.

Offline JohnZD

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 08:30:10 »
Good point, Coreda. I just updated the wiki.

Strange thing about the pictures; after I uploaded them to Deskthority, they were shown upside down within the posting, but loaded the correct way when clicked. That's why I tried to fix the orientation flags with 'preview' before posting them here, but to no avail.

Offline _haru

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 31 July 2017, 18:40:20 »
Hi, I don't think those switches are MX Dark Blues. They look very much like Pale Blues to me (which are even rarer, IIRC).
Here you can see a comparison of MX Blue, MX Pale Blue and MX Dark Blue (in that order):

AMJ60 - 45g MX White | GH60 Rev. C - Ghost Gateron Blacks | DFK101 - Alps SKCM Cream | Filco Majestouch 2 TKL - 62g Vintage MX Ergo Clear

Offline JohnZD

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 03:17:47 »
Hi, I don't think those switches are MX Dark Blues. They look very much like Pale Blues to me (which are even rarer, IIRC).
Here you can see a comparison of MX Blue, MX Pale Blue and MX Dark Blue (in that order):

Show Image


Interesting observation; it never occured to me they could be anything other than dark blues. In fact, I just heard the first time about the pale blue variant.

Here are some pics in comparsion to the current MX blues in a modified DAS:

174734-0 Without flash

174736-1 With flash

174738-2 With more distance w/ flash

174740-3 With more distance w/o flash

It's puzzling, I've never seen different switches so similar in color, although they are obviously not the samt. I can't tell if the laptop switches are darker, paler or even brighter than the new MX blues; maybe this is a job for a spectrometer. It had to come to this.

Offline _haru

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 03:59:32 »
Quote
Interesting observation; it never occured to me they could be anything other than dark blues. In fact, I just heard the first time about the pale blue variant.
It's puzzling, I've never seen different switches so similar in color, although they are obviously not the samt. I can't tell if the laptop switches are darker, paler or even brighter than the new MX blues; maybe this is a job for a spectrometer. It had to come to this.

It certainly looks like Pale Blues to me: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Pale_Blue
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 August 2017, 06:04:52 by linuxfanatic »
AMJ60 - 45g MX White | GH60 Rev. C - Ghost Gateron Blacks | DFK101 - Alps SKCM Cream | Filco Majestouch 2 TKL - 62g Vintage MX Ergo Clear

Offline JohnZD

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 05:43:27 »
It certainly looks like Pale Blues to me: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Pale_Blue

Well, all descriptions of the pale blue MX tactile feeling (and there are not many) refer to them as being tactile, but non-clicky.

Mine, on the other hand, are quite clicky and feel distinctively different from any other MX blue switch in my collection.

As the color is visibly different from the classic blue MX, they also might be vintage MX blues, although no Bondwell or Highscreen Laptop has yet been reported to sport anything other than dark blue MX switches.

Offline SpriteMite

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 05:59:07 »
It certainly looks like Pale Blues to me: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Pale_Blue

Well, all descriptions of the pale blue MX tactile feeling (and there are not many) refer to them as being tactile, but non-clicky.

Mine, on the other hand, are quite clicky and feel distinctively different from any other MX blue switch in my collection.

As the color is visibly different from the classic blue MX, they also might be vintage MX blues, although no Bondwell or Highscreen Laptop has yet been reported to sport anything other than dark blue MX switches.
Not true. Someone got a Bondwell with normal (vintage iirc?) MX blue switches. https://youtu.be/suZ2Yu8Epd4

Offline _haru

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 06:12:31 »
It certainly looks like Pale Blues to me: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Pale_Blue

Well, all descriptions of the pale blue MX tactile feeling (and there are not many) refer to them as being tactile, but non-clicky.

Mine, on the other hand, are quite clicky and feel distinctively different from any other MX blue switch in my collection.

As the color is visibly different from the classic blue MX, they also might be vintage MX blues, although no Bondwell or Highscreen Laptop has yet been reported to sport anything other than dark blue MX switches.

Interesting. Cherry did make numerous switches with very similar colours of plastic, so maybe we're actually talking about two different switches with near-identical colours  :confused:

Another possibility is that your switch and the MX Pale Blue are actually the same, but age has damaged the documented ones to the point where they aren't as tactile anymore. Perhaps this switch wasn't subject to the stringent quality control that Cherry used on their other switches?

There's also the chance that this switch isn't an official Cherry switch. Another keyboard these were found in (the Chicony KB-5191) has been confirmed to use switches with knockoff/original Cherry housings alongside copycat stems, so maybe that's what happened here. This would also further support my theory that these switches weren't as well-made as other Chery switches, which is what causes the inconsistency.

Or, these switches are the same, and they have severe inconsistency issues, kind of like what MX Whites used to have, but worse  :eek:
AMJ60 - 45g MX White | GH60 Rev. C - Ghost Gateron Blacks | DFK101 - Alps SKCM Cream | Filco Majestouch 2 TKL - 62g Vintage MX Ergo Clear

Offline JohnZD

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 07:05:49 »
Now someone just listed a Bondwell B310 on EBay, including a reference to 'dark blue' switches, although the auction pictures are showing a switch which is very similar in color to the obscure Cherrys in my Bondwell B200: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bondwell-B310-Superslim-286-With-Cherry-Dark-Blue-MX-Keyboard-Switches-80286-/232431178008?hash=item361dfa5118:g:V70AAOSwBt5ZJ5V2

Offline _haru

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 08:03:37 »
Now someone just listed a Bondwell B310 on EBay, including a reference to 'dark blue' switches, although the auction pictures are showing a switch which is very similar in color to the obscure Cherrys in my Bondwell B200: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bondwell-B310-Superslim-286-With-Cherry-Dark-Blue-MX-Keyboard-Switches-80286-/232431178008?hash=item361dfa5118:g:V70AAOSwBt5ZJ5V2

That looks more like a normal MX Blue   :confused:
AMJ60 - 45g MX White | GH60 Rev. C - Ghost Gateron Blacks | DFK101 - Alps SKCM Cream | Filco Majestouch 2 TKL - 62g Vintage MX Ergo Clear

Offline davkol

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 16:22:45 »

Offline freaked

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 18 August 2018, 05:34:04 »
Hi JohnZD,

i own the same notebook with a German brand "Highscreen B200". I would like to connect to a Pi with RS232 dongle but I was never able to get TCPser to work  :-\. Could you describe in detail how it works?

I do speak German, PM in German is also OK :)

Thank you

Offline OfTheWild

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Re: Ancient Laptop with a nice surprise
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 22 August 2018, 20:51:03 »
only some of the Bondwell 310s had dark blues. The rest are regular blues... same as what the OP has. Might still be a vintage top though. Another thing to consider, at least in my case, is that the older a switch is the less they click. I suspect its something with the strength of the leaf tension diminishing over time.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 August 2018, 20:52:56 by OfTheWild »
-Dana