Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[frydaja]

I forgot when I posted last time, so here's a find:

I find MX Browns more tactile than MX Blues.

Or Kailh Blues. They just feel like Razer Greens. Are Cherry Blues really that different?

[L0rdN1k0n]

Not a fan of the Model M, the switches were way too heavy for normal use.

Any form factor less than TKL is just silly.

Spending over $100 on a keycap set is also silly, and I don't think I'll ever do it. The markup is just ridiculous, even worse than Topre switches or the HHKB, but they'll keep charging it if people keep buying it.

I like MX Browns.

I also really like the Compaq RT101 slider over rubber dome switch, especially for $20.

[vegs]

I forgot when I posted last time, so here's a find:

I find MX Browns more tactile than MX Blues.

Or Kailh Blues. They just feel like Razer Greens. Are Cherry Blues really that different?

Have you tried retooled mx blues? They feel pretty tactile

[frydaja]

I forgot when I posted last time, so here's a find:

I find MX Browns more tactile than MX Blues.

Or Kailh Blues. They just feel like Razer Greens. Are Cherry Blues really that different?

Have you tried retooled mx blues? They feel pretty tactile

I haven't, there aren't that many Cherry Blues, and all keyboards with Blues in stores are either Kailh or Outemu.

Speaking of which - even clone Kailhs have done large leaps when it comes to smoothness. They're about on par with Outemu and Cherry (but not Gaterons, which feel like cutting butter) while having harder, more satisfying bottom-out (very similar to Cherries).
My Force K81 with Kailh Reds from 2017 is horribly scratchy even after a year of use. Now I'd probably go for Kailh switches instead of Outemu.

[mizzoperator]

Just gonna vent some off here:
-Ergo keyboards. Not nice at all, very awkward, not very ergonomic at all.
-RGB can be pretty good at times, especially when it isn't overly flashy.
-USB is for sheisters, PS/2 should be used for all keyboards. PS/2 is rad.
-Rubber domes are still a solid choice for typing if they aren't super mushy, mechanical isn't always the answer.
-People who mod their Guitar Hero controller strumbars to use any switch other than clones of White Alps are evil.^*
-There is literally no reason for Topre to be as expensive as it is.
-Shine on keycaps isn't all that bad.
-Every keycap is a relegendable keycap if you don't fear god!

Somehow, I doubt these are all that unpopular, but I still wanted to get it off my chest.
_______________
_{*Technically not a keyboard opinion, but it still involves switches, so it's close enough.}

[rxc92]

 
 
This is unpopular opinions, not false beliefs. Ergonomic keyboards, even with simple measures like stagger/orthogonal are better for your fingers. Don't spread misinformation by claiming that they're not ergonomic, that's foolish.
Also you could type on a keyboard for a hundred years and wouldn't notice an input difference between PS/2 and USB. PS/2 is also hell to put in

[Sintpinty]

 
 
This is unpopular opinions, not false beliefs. Ergonomic keyboards, even with simple measures like stagger/orthogonal are better for your fingers. Don't spread misinformation by claiming that they're not ergonomic, that's foolish.
Also you could type on a keyboard for a hundred years and wouldn't notice an input difference between PS/2 and USB. PS/2 is also hell to put in

PS/2 in addition is obsolete really

[Lanrefni]

 
 
This is unpopular opinions, not false beliefs. Ergonomic keyboards, even with simple measures like stagger/orthogonal are better for your fingers. Don't spread misinformation by claiming that they're not ergonomic, that's foolish.
Also you could type on a keyboard for a hundred years and wouldn't notice an input difference between PS/2 and USB. PS/2 is also hell to put in

PS/2 in addition is obsolete really

I was shocked my X570 motherboard actually had a PS/2 port,should come in handy if I ever dig my RC128BM out of the box it's been in since last year.

[NoPunIn10Did]

 
 
This is unpopular opinions, not false beliefs. Ergonomic keyboards, even with simple measures like stagger/orthogonal are better for your fingers. Don't spread misinformation by claiming that they're not ergonomic, that's foolish.
Also you could type on a keyboard for a hundred years and wouldn't notice an input difference between PS/2 and USB. PS/2 is also hell to put in

To be fair to the person you're responding to, there are loads of people in this hobby making claims about ergonomics that don't have any formal training in actual ergonomics (or any research to back up said claims).

I love my Ergodox, for instance.  I also know that I have massive hands, so the thumb cluster placement is great for me but could be terrible for others.  I also know that it took me a while to get used to, and that there are probably several sub-optimal aspects of my key configuration.

Whether a keyboard is ergonomic or not, at least the way we use the term, tends to be a sliding scale, but there are always more variables to consider.  Ortholinear keyboards can be more ergonomic than standard row-staggered keyboards, for instance, but not always.  If it's not a split ortho, it can potentially cause more wrist strain than a row-staggered layout.

In general, we just need to let people like what they like and not try making hugely objective claims.  Likewise, the person you quoted has little business saying that said keyboards aren't ergonomic.  He'd be better off saying "I find them uncomfortable" or similar.

[Sintpinty]

 
 
This is unpopular opinions, not false beliefs. Ergonomic keyboards, even with simple measures like stagger/orthogonal are better for your fingers. Don't spread misinformation by claiming that they're not ergonomic, that's foolish.
Also you could type on a keyboard for a hundred years and wouldn't notice an input difference between PS/2 and USB. PS/2 is also hell to put in

PS/2 in addition is obsolete really

I was shocked my X570 motherboard actually had a PS/2 port,should come in handy if I ever dig my RC128BM out of the box it's been in since last year.

We still use membrane, Intel Core 2 Duo and PS/2 keyboards in the School!

[rxc92]

In general, we just need to let people like what they like and not try making hugely objective claims.  Likewise, the person you quoted has little business saying that said keyboards aren't ergonomic.  He'd be better off saying "I find them uncomfortable" or similar.

Well said. It just bothers me to see people making disingenuous claims to bolster their opinions; it’s totally fine to dislike something, even something good for you, but not okay to make up facts about them.

[Findecanor]

-Ergo keyboards. Not nice at all, very awkward, not very ergonomic at all.

I think there are indeed too many keyboards that have been marketed as "ergonomic" but which are suboptimal ( ⇒  optimising one aspect), often at the expense of some other aspect that might be more important.

The most bullcrap thing I've heard people claim is that an orthonormal keyboard would be ergonomic because it is orthonormal.
No, the ergonomic feature would be if it was split and had angling and/or tenting. For a non-split orthonormal keyboard in one flat piece to impose less ulnar deviation than even a regular row-staggered QWERTY, it would need to have as much hand-separation as on a Kinesis contoured or Maltron.
I believe that the Truly Ergonomic and TypeMatrix: both of which are flat and have insufficient angling/hand separation do more damage than good.

Column-staggered keyboards have an edge over orthonormal because they are more shaped after the hand, but otherwise the same applies to them.
If there is no tenting, a properly row-staggered keyboard half (that is staggered with higher rows closer to the middle, i.e. the right half on a "regular" keyboard) imposes less forearm pronation than a column-staggered keyboard.
Also, with row-stagger, the middle/ring/pinky columns are actually very similar to to the columns on a column-staggered keyboard — only with the keys rotated, which gives it that advantage over orthonormal.

These things above isn't "making up facts". This is applying common knowledge: common knowledge in both the research literature and in the community at large.

-Every keycap is a relegendable keycap if you don't fear god!

Indeed!  )

[Rob27shred]

Alright I'll try to get us back to the good ole' unpopular opinions here. The best arrow cluster setup for a secondary layer on a 60% KB is.
 [
;  '
 /
IMO

[NoPunIn10Did]

Alright I'll try to get us back to the good ole' unpopular opinions here. The best arrow cluster setup for a secondary layer on a 60% KB is.
 [
;  '
 /
IMO

Naw.  Just ditch the right-hand modifier keys and put your arrow keys in a single row.

[Rob27shred]

Alright I'll try to get us back to the good ole' unpopular opinions here. The best arrow cluster setup for a secondary layer on a 60% KB is.
 [
;  '
 /
IMO

Naw.  Just ditch the right-hand modifier keys and put your arrow keys in a single row.

Show Image

That is actually a pretty comfortable setup once you get used to it too TBH. I use that arrow cluster on my 40% boards.

[mizzoperator]

I believe some further clarification is in order.
I don't believe that ALL keyboards aren't ergonomic. I didn't really make this clear enough in my previous post, but my personal opinion is that I believe ergonomic keyboards don't really make typing any more comfortable or ergonomic for me personally.

[Devil]

Not a fan of the Model M, the switches were way too heavy for normal use.

Any form factor less than TKL is just silly.

Spending over $100 on a keycap set is also silly, and I don't think I'll ever do it. The markup is just ridiculous, even worse than Topre switches or the HHKB, but they'll keep charging it if people keep buying it.

I like MX Browns.

I also really like the Compaq RT101 slider over rubber dome switch, especially for $20.

What are you smoking?

[mizzoperator]

Not a fan of the Model M, the switches were way too heavy for normal use.

Any form factor less than TKL is just silly.

Spending over $100 on a keycap set is also silly, and I don't think I'll ever do it. The markup is just ridiculous, even worse than Topre switches or the HHKB, but they'll keep charging it if people keep buying it.

I like MX Browns.

I also really like the Compaq RT101 slider over rubber dome switch, especially for $20.

What are you smoking?

They're not smoking, they're high out of their mind off of the cheap plastic fumes emanating from the Browns and their RT101.
I mean, sure, mindlessly praising the Model M and claiming it's the best keyboard ever is an Argument from Deskthority^* at best, but preferring Browns over Buckling Springs is a crime against humanity and just plain wrong. That's like preferring low-fat artificial chocolate skim milk over a big fat chocolate mocha milkshake.

___________________
_{*Zing! I hit you with a pun!}

[demik]

Green mx switches are the only cherry or cherry equivalent switches worth getting.

[Venaros]

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Any form factor less than TKL is just silly.

What about 75%? You keep pretty much the same amount of dedicated keys but in a more compact form factor

[demik]

http://
Any form factor less than TKL is just silly.

What about 75%? You keep pretty much the same amount of dedicated keys but in a more compact form factor

75% is just an unnecessary cluster**** of keys. At that point, might as well just keep the tkl form factor as it’s cleaner anyway.

[HungerMechanic]

I'm debating this myself. I want a smaller footprint than my full-size so that I can use a mouse or trackball on my keyboard tray.

Previous experiments have shown that maybe a TKL is a little too big for comfortable use of mouse / trackball.

I've tried various small form-factors at meetups. 75% seems surprisingly comfortable. And with the right keycaps, modifiers are very distinct from alphas. Smaller form than TKL, most of the keys.

But 75% lacks nav cluster, arrow key separation, F-row separation, and spaces between F-keys. It does not correspond to muscle memory. So I wonder about typing efficiency.

I have the chance to buy a KBD75 from KBDFans, or maybe a KBD8x mkii TKL if extras are available. There's a strong argument to be made for either one.

[Kevadu]

I'm debating this myself. I want a smaller footprint than my full-size so that I can use a mouse or trackball on my keyboard tray.

Previous experiments have shown that maybe a TKL is a little too big for comfortable use of mouse / trackball.

I've tried various small form-factors at meetups. 75% seems surprisingly comfortable. And with the right keycaps, modifiers are very distinct from alphas. Smaller form than TKL, most of the keys.

But 75% lacks nav cluster, arrow key separation, F-row separation, and spaces between F-keys. It does not correspond to muscle memory. So I wonder about typing efficiency.

I have the chance to buy a KBD75 from KBDFans, or maybe a KBD8x mkii TKL if extras are available. There's a strong argument to be made for either one.

There are 75% boards with F-row separation, spaces between F-keys, and a blocker before the arrows (not total separation but good enough in my opinion at least).  The Xeno 75 is a good example.  There's also the Satisfaction 75 which even has the arrows keys completely separated.  Of course these were both group buys...I don't know any boards you can just buy like that.  Just saying they do exist.

Personally I also assign Fn+arrows to nav commands and I actually find that more convenient than a nav cluster because I switch back and forth a lot.

[Altis]

Alright I'll try to get us back to the good ole' unpopular opinions here. The best arrow cluster setup for a secondary layer on a 60% KB is.
 [
;  '
 /
IMO

On my HHKB, I use FN+ those keys for the arrows (which is the default), but I overlayed them to be:

     PgUp
Home  End
    PgDown

Using the right OS modifier key (next to the spacebar). It's quite easy to leave your hand in one spot and get quick access to all the nav just by alternating pressing with your thumb or pinky.

[ryn1x]

.

[Sintpinty]

Keycap opinions:
- I prefer the feel of $50 PBT keycaps over $130 GMK or $120 SA keycaps or $100 JTK keycaps with high-quality ABS
- OEM > Cherry > SA, by feel
- SA > OEM > Cherry, by looks
- There should be more group buys for beautiful OEM PBT keycaps

Keyboard opinions:
- I like thick plastic cases over metal cases
- I don't like the floating keys design
- full-size > tkl > the rest

Ok, I'm done. Also, my opinions will probably change tomorrow

OEM bad

DSA and G20 good

[yui]

Keycap opinions:
- I prefer the feel of $50 PBT keycaps over $130 GMK or $120 SA keycaps or $100 JTK keycaps with high-quality ABS
- OEM > Cherry > SA, by feel
- SA > OEM > Cherry, by looks
- There should be more group buys for beautiful OEM PBT keycaps

Keyboard opinions:
- I like thick plastic cases over metal cases
- I don't like the floating keys design
- full-size > tkl > the rest

Ok, I'm done. Also, my opinions will probably change tomorrow

OEM bad

DSA and G20 good

I actually would rather go for oem over DSA, i never tried G20 so i can't say for those and i would add change the keyboard order a bit:
battleship > 105 > TKL > anything with no space between the clusters
and ISO > ansi

[ryn1x]

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[ryn1x]

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[didjamatic]

For most people who seek productivity and input proficiency, a full 101+ key keyboard with inverted T arrow cluster and dedicated numpad will destroy micro/novelty/trendy keyboard formats on every metric except portability and desk space. 

The Das Keyboard 4 might be the most generally capable keyboard ever made and the volume knob/media keys are among it's best features.  It's weakness is crummy caps which is easily remedied.

Using all blank caps forces you to touch type and makes you better and faster at typing. 

Colemak or Dvorak are more efficient than Qwerty for speed and efficiency, but if you learn them, you'll struggle when moving to computers that have standard layouts so it's not worth it for most people. 

Trackballs will never be as fast or efficient as a good lasermouse, but they do have many advantages for RSI and precision work.

Realforce Topre keyboards are excellent when you stay on their platform and use it exclusively.  You will become very fast with it, but your hands have to adapt first.

The Model F PC AT has the best typing experience of any keyboard made, party due to it's tolerable layout compared to others of it's era.  But it's loud.

A clean Northgate Omnikey is probably better than anything you own, including your car  

[ergonaut]

Colemak or Dvorak are more efficient than Qwerty for speed and efficiency, but if you learn them, you'll struggle when moving to computers that have standard layouts so it's not worth it for most people.

The highlighted part seems like a very popular opinion to me, but let me counter with my less popular opinion: it's just not true. I've been using an alternative layout for ~8 years now, and I can still use neanderthal QWERTY keyboards just fine, with about the same speed and accuracy as before. It's just a different skill, but you don't really forget how to use it. I might swear and roll my eyes whenever I'm forced to use QWERTY, but I can still do it.

That said, I would indeed struggle if I had to use a QWERTY board with blank keycaps – which has never happened so far.

[yui]

I learned qwerty because i got tired of having to switch to french layout on every distros i tried, and i now use qwerty on all my pc even ones with physical azerty keyboards but i can still with a bit of errors on the 1st few leters type on an azerty pc so i guess it would be the same with colemak/dvorak... i do not plan to try because i do not really need to type much faster. but as long as you interact regularly with "classic" layouts you should be able to switch from one to the other pretty effortlessly.

[didjamatic]

Qwetry is a necessary evil for most people at this point, at least until Elon creates the neural interface to bypass typing.

[mode]

The only purpose for a desk is to put a keyboard and mouse on, so there's no point in "saving" any space.

[DALExSNAIL]

The only purpose for a desk is to put a keyboard and mouse on, so there's no point in "saving" any space.

This isn't an opinion, it's actually just not true lol

[Rob27shred]

The only purpose for a desk is to put a keyboard and mouse on, so there's no point in "saving" any space.

This isn't an opinion, it's actually just not true lol

For reals! What if you got a small desk!

[yui]

The only purpose for a desk is to put a keyboard and mouse on, so there's no point in "saving" any space.

This isn't an opinion, it's actually just not true lol

For reals! What if you got a small desk!

well you could get a bigger one, or a smaller mouse why is it always the keyboard that need to be smaller?

[DALExSNAIL]

The only purpose for a desk is to put a keyboard and mouse on, so there's no point in "saving" any space.

This isn't an opinion, it's actually just not true lol

For reals! What if you got a small desk!

well you could get a bigger one, or a smaller mouse why is it always the keyboard that need to be smaller?

Only Handlets need anything larger than a tkl tbh.

[mode]

By virtue of me having it it’s my opinion, and clearly hyperbole

[DALExSNAIL]

By virtue of me having it it’s my opinion, and clearly hyperbole

I have crippling autism, and cannot detect sarcasm. Please forgive me.

[mode]

By virtue of me having it it’s my opinion, and clearly hyperbole

I have crippling autism, and cannot detect sarcasm. Please forgive me.

No worries mate. Fwiw, I have a diagnosis too!

[chyros]

QWERTY is absolutely fine and no problem at all if you don't type weirdly.

[yui]

QWERTY is absolutely fine and no problem at all if you don't type weirdly.

says the man who admit to type weirdly in his videos.
and yeah if do not look at your keyboard qwerty is no problem, only the set layout on the machine is.

[mode]

Typing weirdly is fine, as is not caring about speed. Just use whatever fingers for whatever key feels right for you.

[tp4tissue]

Typing weirdly is fine, as is not caring about speed. Just use whatever fingers for whatever key feels right for you.

Q and P should use ring finger

Home row is awefjio;  NOT,  asdfjkl;

[Herman]

Typing weirdly is fine, as is not caring about speed. Just use whatever fingers for whatever key feels right for you.

Q and P should use ring finger

Home row is awefjio;  NOT,  asdfjkl;

awdjio > awefjio

and if im feeling spicy sometimes its awdhiop

 

[HungerMechanic]

Keycap opinions:
- I prefer the feel of $50 PBT keycaps over $130 GMK or $120 SA keycaps or $100 JTK keycaps with high-quality ABS
- OEM > Cherry > SA, by feel
- SA > OEM > Cherry, by looks
- There should be more group buys for beautiful OEM PBT keycaps

Keyboard opinions:
- I like thick plastic cases over metal cases
- I don't like the floating keys design
- full-size > tkl > the rest

Ok, I'm done. Also, my opinions will probably change tomorrow

There's nothing wrong with OEM profile, it's popular and common for a reason. Asian manufacturers use it widely because many people would prefer a slightly-taller keycap than Cherry. It's fine on domes, Topre, and scissor-switch.

The problem is with stock Cherry switches. Cherry-profile keycaps and DCS work best for stock Cherry switches because Cherry wobbles, and shorter keycaps can mean less wobble.

But with less-wobbly MX-compatible switches, including some BOX switches, OEM is fine. It's pretty sturdy if the switches are.

If there were premium OEM options, that would be great.

[mode]

Speaking of wobble...

I do not care about wobble, it's not a metric I give two ****s about as long as keys don't bind.

[Kevadu]

Speaking of wobble...

I do not care about wobble, it's not a metric I give two ****s about as long as keys don't bind.

Thank you!  Of all the things to be anal about wobble doesn't even need consideration...

[chyros]

QWERTY is absolutely fine and no problem at all if you don't type weirdly.

says the man who admit to type weirdly in his videos.
and yeah if do not look at your keyboard qwerty is no problem, only the set layout on the machine is.

I'll go further even, at least I don't type in the way that gets me RSI and subsequently necessitates getting some unspeakable ergo nightmare board to save my broken limbs .