So the rumour with Das Keyboard is true

[Binge]

I'm not a brand guy myself.  I'll buy from whichever manufacturer gets the job done reliably.  I review for a website and would happily tear-down a new das for science provided I didn't have to buy one of the new models.

[davkol]

So Das are moving from Costar (apparently the best big OEM at the moment) to some unknown manufacturer in mainland China, and we're supposed to believe that quality will stay untouched. I won't believe until someone can actually prove it. If the OEM isn't iOne, it's not so bad, but again: until someone can confirm quality stays untouched, I will stay away from Das Keyboard. Oh wait... I stay away from Das Keyboard anyway because of hype/marketing BS.

[Hyde]

Oh wait... I stay away from Das Keyboard anyway because of hype/marketing BS.

I wonder if Filco is consider low key because we don't understand Japanese LOL.

[Vintage]

Oh wait... I stay away from Das Keyboard anyway because of hype/marketing BS.

I wonder if Filco is consider low key because we don't understand Japanese LOL.

Well, that, and the fact that the keyboards themselves are very "no frills" by design.

[rootwyrm]

I love how everyone's freaking out about "oh it's no more Costar who is good but at least it's not iOne who is bad."
Believe me, iOne is far from the worst OEM in China. And there are a lot who overpromise to customers and cheerfully underdeliver because they can get away with it. (Nevermind that Costar actually isn't even close to good.)
Besides, take it with a grain of salt - I've seen their marketing deny that Costar is the OEM and then admit it in the same day.

[Harlequin]

i was never a fan of Das. Really dislike the shiny body that gets finger prints easily.

[Hyde]

i was never a fan of Das. Really dislike the shiny body that gets finger prints easily.

It used to not bother me until I tried a Filco, then I realize yeah Filco is a lot easier to maintain LOL.  Especially since I have the beige Filco which is actually harder to see dust compare to the black Filco.

[chewyfruitloop]

well my UK layout model S just arrived....says made in Taiwan on the bottom of it
big improvement from the playdoh HP came with a job lot of PC's thing I have at work
seems nicer on my fingers than the mac chicklet board thats currently attached to my home machine to

...what do i know though...not used a proper mechanical board since the SGI boards on the machines at uni 13 years ago

[Hyde]

lol if it says made in Taiwan then you're safe.

Though I guess since we don't know what's the new vendor yet, has anyone rip open a new Das yet in the name of keyboard science?  I wonder if they used the same vendor as CM Storm TK or Logitech G710+ since there is no solid proof on which vendor they are yet.

Mmmmmm really curious which mystery place this is lol.

[davkol]

Do they already sell the Das with multimedia keys. That one was supposed to be made by someone else. However, I haven't seen it at their website.

[Hyde]

It's already in their regular lineup.  If you buy any normal Das Keybard with labels it will have the media key come with it.  I don't think they fixed the pictures yet but if you go to store and buy them then you'll see it's different.

[davkol]

Well, reviews at Amazon appear to be quite negative. The keyboard is supposedly lighter, has sticky spacebar and stabilized keys in general... There're also mentioned redesigned keys on the first row.

New Das Keyboard seems inferior to the older generation, after all.

[Binge]

I should be having a review sample coming in the next month.  Expect internals and a comparison to the last costar gen model.

[Hyde]

I should be having a review sample coming in the next month.  Expect internals and a comparison to the last costar gen model.

Sweet then we'll actually have proof instead of speculation 

[Playtrumpet]

Will the time come when we have to start putting "Das Keyboard - Pre-iOne" in our signatures?

[rootwyrm]

From This Amazon Review:

Now for my biggest problem with it is that the lettering of the keys darkens/discolors way too easily. I wonder if anyone at Das Keyboard actually tested playing FPS games with this keyboard

Uh, yeah. Do you know which ODM's been having that specific issue across their entire line? Here's a hint. Begins with "C" and ends in "ostar." Or begins with "iOne" and ends in misery. So my skepticism toward claims it's "not Costar" and "not iOne" would appear to be justified. I have a suspicion when Binge takes his apart, he's going to find Costar, but we'll see. I do especially love how they used a pre-production render of a Mk2 instead of an actual photograph of the keyboard though. That's always a positive sign, right?

As for the rest? Remember, the ODM builds to the OEM's requirements. Costar is an ODM (Original DESIGN Manufacturer) and Das is an OEM (Original "Equipment" Manufacturer.) The only way the quality declines this much is if the OEM, in this case Das, either specifies lower QC/QA threshold or the ODM is taking the OEM for a ride.

[davkol]

As for the rest? Remember, the ODM builds to the OEM's requirements. Costar is an ODM (Original DESIGN Manufacturer) and Das is an OEM (Original "Equipment" Manufacturer.) The only way the quality declines this much is if the OEM, in this case Das, either specifies lower QC/QA threshold or the ODM is taking the OEM for a ride.

Well, that would mean their PR department is lying. Much better. Not surprising though, from their website:

German-engineered mechanical key switches: Das Keyboard compares to the legendary IBM Model M. Its best-in-class mechanical gold-plated key switches provide a tactile click that makes typing a pure joy.

Unless they use less-mainstream definition of "compares".

[rootwyrm]

Well, that would mean their PR department is lying. Much better. Not surprising though, from their website:

German-engineered mechanical key switches: Das Keyboard compares to the legendary IBM Model M. Its best-in-class mechanical gold-plated key switches provide a tactile click that makes typing a pure joy.

Unless they use less-mainstream definition of "compares".

I don't know that I'd go that far yet; mostly I've seen a lot of "have no clue what's correct or accurate" resulting in a lot of conflicting answers. It certainly would NOT be the first PR/marketing department doing that by any stretch of the imagination, and it's especially rife with design houses because their product involvement is usually limited to aesthetics. Though frankly this looks like they're moving the same way Razer and OCZ did - get people hooked with an initial release that's solid, ramp the marketing hype to 11 so anyone pointing out flaws will get shouted down, then slash quality knowing there's an army of people who'd buy a literal dog turd from them just because of the name.

But hmm.. maybe they're basing that comparison on the fact that both are in a keyboard and both have springs.

[Hyde]

I wonder if Das Keyboard uses the same manufactures as CM Storm TK and Logitech G710+ if it's not Costar and not iOne.

Refer to this post that I made as to why:  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37861.0

Though I really hope not, because based on the user reviews I've read on amazon, the new Das definitely don't compare up to the old Das 

[laffindude]

Uh, yeah. Do you know which ODM's been having that specific issue across their entire line? Here's a hint. Begins with "C" and ends in "ostar." Or begins with "iOne" and ends in misery. So my skepticism toward claims it's "not Costar" and "not iOne" would appear to be justified. I have a suspicion when Binge takes his apart, he's going to find Costar, but we'll see. I do especially love how they used a pre-production render of a Mk2 instead of an actual photograph of the keyboard though. That's always a positive sign, right?

As for the rest? Remember, the ODM builds to the OEM's requirements. Costar is an ODM (Original DESIGN Manufacturer) and Das is an OEM (Original "Equipment" Manufacturer.) The only way the quality declines this much is if the OEM, in this case Das, either specifies lower QC/QA threshold or the ODM is taking the OEM for a ride.

Every single white on black board that is not clear coated has this issue. They range from Cherry lasered POMs to lasered Filcos, to whatever iOne conjures up. I think this is the squeaky wheel QC. OEM just use whatever looks acceptable when new, then deal with the problems as it comes. Most people just admit defeat. The people inquiring about it will just get a no. They just have to grease the squeaky wheel when they make a racket. It is the cheapest way.

[Hyde]

Yupe sorta why I got a beige ninja (side printed) board and also purchasing dye sub PBT keycaps 

Though this is probably over compensating LOLLLL

[rootwyrm]

The symptoms are rather specific, and line up 100% with problems reported on well, honestly, damn near every CST-104 variant on the market right now. It's not just "dirt build up" - it's actual wearing of the material, which is so poorly made, it almost immediately turns gray. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've talked to OEMs who are furious with Costar because of it. The problem is much, much worse than the reviews would indicate, it's a known defect, and Costar knows its been going on for a long time now.
And I mean really, do you honestly think people here would not be up in arms if Filco keycaps looked completely trashed in a matter of weeks? Or any white on blacks? Frankly, I've dealt with plenty - never seen it before. Slight discoloration, sure, but I have damn fine color vision so I notice the slightest shift. Certainly not gray though - and definitely not in a matter of weeks with light to moderate use.

And doesn't mean it's Costar. Doesn't mean it's iOne. Could be they switched plastics suppliers and they're getting screwed. Could be they cut corners to meet demand. Could be someone else entirely. I'm genuinely curious to see the problematic keycaps as well as what Binge finds when he takes his apart.

I've got a Costar OEM'd set showing the full range of the excessive wear badness around here somewhere. If we can get some shots of the problematic Das, would be good to compare.

[cooklaw2]

I should be having a review sample coming in the next month.  Expect internals and a comparison to the last costar gen model.

Sweet then we'll actually have proof instead of speculation 

Looking forward to the comparison.

[Hyde]

I think this is probably why Filco keyboards are pad printed.  So they can avoid the whole "greying" issue.

[chewyfruitloop]

well my replacement das came back, this one from kustompc's December 6th batch
its still a Taiwan model, so it seems like theres still a reasonable stock in the supply chain

has to be said that when i tweeted that i had a duff number 4, das did contact me and offer to help resolve the issue which was pretty nice....doubt you'd get many more manufactures doing that when you buy from a third party

[laffindude]

I think this is probably why Filco keyboards are pad printed.  So they can avoid the whole "greying" issue.

They're lasered now. Lasering getting discolored is less of a problem if they use coating on the caps. Since the coat will soak into the porous parts of the legend, preventing hand gunk soaking into the legend.

[Binge]

KBtalking Pro uses coated, laser etched, caps.  They are by far my favorite OEM caps.

UPDATE on the review:  Received the Das board, taking tear-down pictures tomorrow evening.

[Hyde]

KBtalking Pro uses coated, laser etched, caps.  They are by far my favorite OEM caps.

UPDATE on the review:  Received the Das board, taking tear-down pictures tomorrow evening.

Ohhhhhhhh can't wait to see it 

[laffindude]

KBtalking Pro uses coated, laser etched, caps.  They are by far my favorite OEM caps.

Not necessarily. There were a batch of lower cost ones with just uncoated laser foamed keys. The regular visible legend ones are UV coated laser foamed caps. Then of course, there are those laser engraved caps like yours.

[Binge]

Alright kids this is about all I can reveal before the entire review of the keyboard.  Anyone know where I can get a replacement Das case??

New Das


Old Das

[Lu_e]

  Anyone know where I can get a replacement Das case??

uh oh, spaghetti o's :/

A moment of silence for Binge's sacrifices for the community...

[rootwyrm]

Wow, sloppy as hell on the soldering on the new Das.. the part number doesn't match to anything I'm familiar with. Part number indicates it's an off the shelf part though - one from 2010, likely 2nd revision. Can you get us some photos of the controller, Binge?
That particular soldering style though... almost nobody out there who still practices pin-bend. Narrows it down tremendously.

[WhiteFireDragon]

Is that RoHS compliant? The solder looks too shiny to be lead-free solder.

[Binge]

last one.  The rest have to be saved for the review.

Is that RoHS compliant? The solder looks too shiny to be lead-free solder.

There is most definitely a RoHS sticker on the board.

[chewyfruitloop]

The only thing I can find that could point to the manufacturer is http://www.tradezz.com/buy_2651537_beautiful-garden-speaker.htm that having the HY-D4 on it.
Either there are lots of Huayuan companies in china or they are just very cagey about what they make....so far I've seen them called specialist electrical tape, RFID and office equipment manufacturers

they other possibility is that HY-D is identifying it as made in Huayuan and the 4 is the plant number

...still probably grasping at straws


...the controller board seems to have been printed quite a while ago too...wonder if they've been using them for a while and shipping parts made by them to taiwan to be assembled....

[rootwyrm]

Actually, we can get some partial ID from that photo. Thanks Binge! (And I totally hear you on keeping photos in reserve.)

That NEC part there is the USB hub and microcontroller likely. And it's a damn OLD part - or a forgery. Because the NEC Electronics division was rolled into Renesas. NEC Electronics no longer produces microcontrollers of any flavor. I can't make out the markings on it, but it's definitely not a SuperH. Too low a pincount - 48 pin + USB in Renesas livery would definitely fit RX200 family. Which should be in Renesas livery somewhat like this meh quality photo. But as I said, it could also be an old part - especially given the indicated age of 2010 - that they're still working through stock on.

EDIT: Oh hells, look at the new PCB... look at all the ripples and ridges on the material. Holy crap. That looks straight out of the 1970's.

[Hyde]

lol I'm not too pro on the whole PCB stuff.

Though today I went by my local Canada Computers and they had the new Das on shelf for my to play with.  Out of the ~5 minutes that I was playing with.  I didn't notice anything physically wrong with it except that some key are stiffer than others.  It happens in quite a few region and it's pretty noticeable.  Another obvious difference I guess it's that the function, window, and option keys are 1x1.

It's not really bad but it's like you can tell something's off about it I can't explain.

lol can't wait for your full side by side review 

[rootwyrm]

So taking a closer look at that PCB we can determine two facts:
1) It is a much lower quality PCB overall than the Costar manufactured PCBs. The material quality is visibly lower as indicated by the significant ripples in the material and marring evident at the lower edge. This is, no surprise, common on low quality Chinese manufactured PCBs.
2) The overall component quality is significantly lower than the CST-104 re-case based on numerous independent reviews so far, and the other indications - specifically the visibly low-quality PCB, which is obviously just like the CST-104, a re-case based on the production date of 2010.

So what keyboard do we know that has 1x1 Windows keys, uses Cherry MX switches, and comes from China with a well established reputation as a low quality part? And also is advertised as being available for private labeling and contract manufacturing the same as the CST-104? (Oh, and would warrant using engineering mockups from a 2nd Generation Costar rather than actual product photos.)

Well, here's my number one contender: the one that Das Keyboard insists it isn't. It's not like all Windows keys being 1x1 is even remotely common. I mean seriously - do you know how few there are? Here's one and another and I guess kinda this one. And wouldn't you know it, they're all iOne.
EDIT: Mind, that's my opinion as to who's making it. Not stating it as fact, just what seems apparent. Not sure if these Newegg photos are accurate but that layout is really distinct and uncommon.

[wetto]

Can someone get the photos of the stabilizers? This could help a lot, I think..

[rootwyrm]

Can someone get the photos of the stabilizers? This could help a lot, I think..

If that's a photo of the spacebar area, there's no stabilizer. But no idea. Presumably Binge will have photos of the stabilizers in his review, so we'll have to be a bit patient there.
Though... ohai Chinese board with that exact 1x1 + 1x1 layout I haven't found anywhere else at all yet. Specifications only barely match, but given the controller's cabled, that's rather easy to fix...

[chewyfruitloop]

The interesting thing about the controller is not that it has an NEC chip on it, they could have been mass produced and stored, they're probably a generic part.
The thing that caught my eye was the printed date of January 11th 2011.
PCB's are very application specific, having such an old one seems to indicate that either, das are buying in job lots used by a load of other people too or the manufacturer has been used by das for quite a while.

as for the ripples on the board....its a bit perplexing...it could be that the lacquer they put on it was blown dry not baked, as its not visible in the traces on the PCB, it seems to be more of a finishing issue
I'm not saying that its ok though, if its not been finished well, you do have to wonder what else was done to the same standard

...I do like all this scooby gang stuff though

[laffindude]

EDIT: Mind, that's my opinion as to who's making it. Not stating it as fact, just what seems apparent. Not sure if these Newegg photos are accurate but that layout is really distinct and uncommon.

I think it is a Solidyear. Using Taiwanese romanization rule, their name could be written as HY.

[linuxid10t]

EDIT: Mind, that's my opinion as to who's making it. Not stating it as fact, just what seems apparent. Not sure if these Newegg photos are accurate but that layout is really distinct and uncommon.

I think it is a Solidyear. Using Taiwanese romanization rule, their name could be written as HY.

Just looked at some of their other keyboards and I think you are right.  Anyway, definitely NOT iOne

[wetto]

LOL, this SolidYear keyboard looks a damn lot like the Thermaltake Meka:

[linuxid10t]

LOL, this SolidYear keyboard looks a damn lot like the Thermaltake Meka:

Show Image

That is one ugly ass keyboard...

[Binge]

I know a few folks have been knocking the soldering, but TBH the shine and convex curves to a number of these solder joints mean that the one worker who soldered this board spent enough time to make sure the solder flowed well.  An impressive list of components shows denotes only quality components, but to have enough time spent to make a proper solder joint is an indicator of decent assembly.   It would be discouraging to have a talented assembly staff while skimping on materials.  Details about the PCB are odd like the frayed edges and ripples, but the traces are large which means there's more visible copper on these boards than the original.  Taking off the switches and plate is not outside of the realm of possibility, but then I would have undone most of the work I would want to inspect.

This is a tough egg, but so far their keyboard is fine.  My original Das keyboard space-bar squeeked and this one has none of that mess.

[laffindude]

I wasn't really paying attention at the PCB pix showing the switches when I looked at them before. PCB mount switches on a plate mount. That's interesting.

[chewyfruitloop]

I wonder if the solder is done by hand or robot
I do agree that it doesn't look teribad though

I can confirm that my new das has no squeaky keys either...the left shift went manky really fast though...and i can't seem to scrub it clean lol

[Human]

I wasn't really paying attention at the PCB pix showing the switches when I looked at them before. PCB mount switches on a plate mount. That's interesting.

Actually, if you ever notice. Corsair K60/90 is also PCB mounted keyboard. They are using the PCB mount switches with 5pins/legs. But they are both mounted at the aluminum case at the same time.

[rootwyrm]

EDIT: Mind, that's my opinion as to who's making it. Not stating it as fact, just what seems apparent. Not sure if these Newegg photos are accurate but that layout is really distinct and uncommon.

I think it is a Solidyear. Using Taiwanese romanization rule, their name could be written as HY.

Just looked at some of their other keyboards and I think you are right.  Anyway, definitely NOT iOne

As I mentioned, it's possible it's old NEC stock, yes.. but that would also rule out RX200. So it's extremely confusing to me. Renesas' website sucks though, so it may be a lower end QFP48 part. Any RX200 is guaranteed to be Renesas badged though, as the part was introduced after the split was completed. I'll do some digging around and see what the other possible parts are.
I also would agree the solder work is not bad. I wouldn't call it 'good' much less 'excellent,' but it's definitely not bad. It will hold up just fine, but that pin bend bothers me, and there's some solder slag on the PCB - which should never happen. All the quality soldering in the world won't help with a shoddy PCB though. The ripples I saw there I've only seen on low quality PCBs with poor bonding between layers. That's a serious problem for obvious reasons.

I disagree that Solidyear is more likely - the part numbers do not match their scheme. All Solidyear PNs are 3+4 Letter+Number scheme. e.g. it should be 'HYx-6004' not 'HY-6004.' Doesn't fit the numbering scheme either. They also do not have a stock PCB that maps even remotely near it. I would rate them very unlikely. So I wouldn't rule out iOne entirely yet. Again, iOne can modify existing designs to meet customer requirements. So that means that it could be a modified Scorpius. But again; I don't see any evidence saying explicitly that it's iOne. Just a collection of circumstantial that it's an iOne design.

Also, remember that Thermaltake Meka covers multiple keyboards. The G1 is literally a badged CST-104 "Sydney" reference. IIRC there's 5 different ODMs.

The cabled controller isn't entirely red herring, either. The CST104 can be cabled instead of push-mount, but that would be a new PN. But it's also uncommon as hell these days - so who do we know that uses cabled controllers? I can't say I know anyone these days.

EDIT:
Digging into things a bit, it hit me that being 48TQFP, it could be a part I'm very familiar with - the NEC uPD72010 USB 2.0 Controller. Every uPD72nnn is NEC badged or no mfg badge, even current. This is acurrent uPD72010 photo and here's the datasheet (Warning: PDF). However, that would mean it's not the microcontroller itself - the D72nnn's strictly a hub.
The other possibility might be that it's a M66291GP which is a complete microcontroller. No photo for this one, but it's actually a blended NEC/Renesas/Hitachi part which is currently made and has a datasheet here. (Warning: PDF)