Chinese USB Hall Effect Keyboard - Review and Impressions

[XMIT]

Twitter account created: https://twitter.com/XMITKeyboards

Not sure who uses that here, but, it's a way for folks to get support when the keyboards start shipping.

[Niomosy]

The only [H] I know is HardOCP -- very old PC hardware community.

http://www.hardocp.com/

I wasn't aware that they dabbled in mechs.  I don't see a subforum for it.

They dabble a bit in them in the keyboard/mouse forum.  It's how I found Geekhack in the first place.  However, it's pretty small amounts of mech discussion there.  Overclock had a small bit more discussion on mech boards than Hard Forums going on to be honest.

[dwolvin]

Good call on Overclock- I lurk there but never post. ..

Sorry Xmit, for some silly reason I often forget that people might not know [H]ardOCP.  It's just been my central tech centric forum for...  Ever?

Oh, parting shot for the night, but on the black board, I know this is probably blasphemy but I like the font / stencil style keys.  (runs in a zig-zag to escape the stones)

[Slash Emperor]

Congrats on the MD launch! Just joined the drop!

[XMIT]

I just noticed that! Check it out here:

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/xmit-hall-effect-mechanical-keyboard?mode=guest_open

[XMIT]

Hey dwolvin - the Hardforum mods decided that I was a spammer and banned my account. That's really not very nice of them. I've e-mailed them asking to reverse the ban.

If you get a moment, I'd appreciate you sharing the Massdrop link over there too.

[Data]

I am so in.

[romevi]

Bamboo for me if I get to join in time.

[Data]

Can you tell us the size & length of the case screws?  I might want to swap them out for button heads.

[XMIT]

Can you tell us the size & length of the case screws?  I might want to swap them out for button heads.

I'm not sure this is meaningful, since the updated case screws go in from the back, are smaller, and are not visible from the front.

I don't have the final prototypes handy at the moment (they are with Massdrop for photography!). But given the Chinese manufacturing I all but guarantee these are an off the shelf Metric thread size and screw length.

[Erikdayo]

Looking at the drop and definitely considering it. On the 60% are there any preset arrow keys via Fn? If not, would it be easy enough to program via Sharpkeys? I haven't tried Sharpkeys much other than changing my Caps Lock. But having Fn + [ ; ' / for the different directions would be nice. Similar to HHKB, I suppose.

[XMIT]

Here's the near-final 60% key mapping.

[Photoelectric]

Hmm, I thought the original idea was only to have the logo on the underside.  That has changed for the group buy on MD.  The minimalistic wood case of the bamboo version would have been nice without the top logo.

Also, if I understand the descriptions so far correctly, the acrylic case version is the best dampened/heaviest--does that mean the bamboo case is light and more hollow feeling?  I think I prefer the 70g switch version, and thus the bamboo case.

[XMIT]

Bamboo is less dense than acrylic, yes. They both feel pretty substantial.

[zslane]

Here's the near-final 60% key mapping.

(Attachment Link)

Is there only one fixed position for the Fn key? Chording for the arrow-keys with the right pinky would be frustrating; I'm used to using CapsLock for that on all my 60% boards.

[XMIT]

Is there only one fixed position for the Fn key? Chording for the arrow-keys with the right pinky would be frustrating; I'm used to using CapsLock for that on all my 60% boards.

In this version, yes. We're still exploring options for full remapping (which everyone wants for 60% boards) but I can't promise anything yet. (I only promise things I can actually deliver on - no vaporware here.)

[dwolvin]

Sure- I'll post it at [H] and overclock (just noticed that nobody had yet).

[XMIT]

Thanks! I e-mailed the mods to get myself un-banned over at [H] and haven't heard back. I won't hold my breath. I'll register some other handle if I really want to be active over there. I get that spam is probably a huge problem for them but I thought it was crude that they simply banned me with no notice.

[dwolvin]

Yea- that is strange.  Generally they answer back quickly and are nice.  In for a black'87, already wondering if I should plan on swapping springs down the road, and I 'ring them.

[Niomosy]

In.  Picked up the extra springs as I may want to throw the heavier springs just in case.  For $5 it's an easy decision.  Looking forward to this one.  Hall Effect switches have been high on the want list for a while now.

[captain]

Has anyone addressed the complaints about these switches in that board from ali?

"The switches are bad. After a month of use some keys stopped responding, so I've changed them with spares that came with the keyboard, but after a while they stopped responding as well. So be caucious."

[menuhin]

Is there only one fixed position for the Fn key? Chording for the arrow-keys with the right pinky would be frustrating; I'm used to using CapsLock for that on all my 60% boards.

In this version, yes. We're still exploring options for full remapping (which everyone wants for 60% boards) but I can't promise anything yet. (I only promise things I can actually deliver on - no vaporware here.)

If that is the case, I hope it is possible to have a PCB that allow the split Backspace for a HHKB layout.
I know at the moment they don't sell individual switches but it seems like this mod can be easily done.

[ander]

XMIT, congratulations on this swell and ingenious project! You've given us KB lovers a chance to own and enjoy legendary switch technology that, till now, we could only observe in obsolete boards and fantasize about actually using.

I've just joined the Drop for a 104-key bamboo, and am sure looking forward to it. Thank you!

Has anyone addressed the complaints about these switches in that board from ali? "The switches are bad. After a month of use some keys stopped responding..."

I don't think you have much to worry about. As XMIT mentioned, he's been using his earlier prototype daily, for several months. And he's told us here about the work he's done with the manufacturer to make the switches even better.

Besides, it'd be entirely too ironic to go to the trouble to make boards with Hall Effect switches—the most reliable, long-lasting switch technology in history—in a way that caused them to stop working. The very idea is mind-boggling.

[XMIT]

Has anyone addressed the complaints about these switches in that board from ali?

"The switches are bad. After a month of use some keys stopped responding, so I've changed them with spares that came with the keyboard, but after a while they stopped responding as well. So be caucious."

@captain can you please provide a link to this exact comment?

Recall that, from the manufacturer, there are two very different switches that use the same plastics and similar PCBs. One is a capacitive design - I can see springs getting worn or deformed or something. The other is this Hall design.

Some of the /very/ early prototypes had some soldering issues that were related to hastily-done hand soldering. Production boards won't have this problem.

The only issues I've had with these boards with regards to key sensing, has always been related to a bad spring installation. It is a little tricky, when rebuilding, to get the springs and housings together just right. It can take a couple of tries.

[FoxWolf1]

Has anyone addressed the complaints about these switches in that board from ali?

"The switches are bad. After a month of use some keys stopped responding, so I've changed them with spares that came with the keyboard, but after a while they stopped responding as well. So be caucious."

FWIW, I've got nearly 6 months on mine without any sign of these problems. And that's without any of XMIT's improvements to the switch, which can only make things even better.

Also, if that comment is about the Wellrui/Phoneix (sic) boards, keep in mind that some/many/all of those are NOT using the Hall Effect switch, but rather the super cheap double spring version that XMIT mentioned. Thus far, I've been unable to confirm that there are any Wellruis in the wild that actually use the HE switch, though it does occasionally seem to appear in their marketing materials.

[Sifo]

gonna have to pass on round 1

[captain]

I think the comment was re. the non-HAL switches. Glad to hear these will work longer than any of us will. ;-)

[Yabo]

This thing piqued my interest. Few questions: Is it 1000hz? How fast is the matrix scan rate? Really no debouncing needed at all?

[XMIT]

This thing piqued my interest. Few questions: Is it 1000hz? How fast is the matrix scan rate? Really no debouncing needed at all?

The manufacturer claims a 1000 Hz scan rate. I don't have the source code, so I don't know for sure. I guess I could put an oscilloscope to the Hall sense lines...

As for "debounce" - nope, not needed in the traditional way. The sensors themselves have a digital output with hysteresis. obra wrote a nice description about this a while ago, based on dorkvader's presentation. http://blog.keyboard.io/post/93901487184/what-you-and-i-missed-at-keycon-2014#hall-effect-switches

[vivalarevolución]

So this is where that Massdrop buy originated from.  Interesting.

[XMIT]

Good news! It looks like we’ll have some sort of re-programming option available in a couple of weeks - after the drop ends but well before shipping. So, if you want to remap Ctrl, or Fn, or Caps Lock, or Esc or any other key, this is now possible!

Back story: I worked with a design and manufacturing partner on the board. They, in turn, worked with another partner for firmwares and microcontrollers. In fact, we switched from a previous partner because there was /no/ programming option with their offering.

Below is the response I received from the manufacturer, with some minor edits:

“They're making the firmware ready for end-users to re-program the keyboards. The function will be ready by the end of this month, which is in about 2 weeks. They said the interface might not look good, but they'll open it so the end-users can make their own interface.”

This was the #1 piece of feedback I’ve received in the past few days, and now, it looks like we have a path forward here!

[dwolvin]

Nice!

[Niomosy]

Reprogramming?  Excellent.  Fn key remapping is a go!

[ander]

Has anyone addressed the complaints about these switches in that board from ali?

...The only issues I've had with these boards with regards to key sensing, has always been related to a bad spring installation. It is a little tricky, when rebuilding, to get the springs and housings together just right.

That said, HE is actually quite straightforward—spring, magnet, sensor—thus its extraordinary robustness. So once you're tooled up right, there's little that could go wrong.

gonna have to pass on round 1 :(

Gotta stay married, by any chance? I know the feeling... XMIT's timing was just especially good this time.

I think the comment was re. the non-HAL switches. Glad to hear these will work longer than any of us will. ;-)

Indeed—as my wife's dad would've said, these boards should "see us out".

But then, my Model M's will undoubtedly see me out... When you're my age, even a membrane could. (As George Burns used to say, "I don't even buy green bananas anymore!")

“They're making the firmware ready for end-users to re-program the keyboards. The function will be ready by the end of this month, which is in about 2 weeks. They said the interface might not look good, but they'll open it so the end-users can make their own interface.”

So we can share those interfaces here, and discuss and collaborate on 'em... How cool is that? I don't see too many other KB makers open-sourcing their code.

[tomboy]

Good news! It looks like we’ll have some sort of re-programming option available in a couple of weeks - after the drop ends but well before shipping. So, if you want to remap Ctrl, or Fn, or Caps Lock, or Esc or any other key, this is now possible!

Back story: I worked with a design and manufacturing partner on the board. They, in turn, worked with another partner for firmwares and microcontrollers. In fact, we switched from a previous partner because there was /no/ programming option with their offering.

Below is the response I received from the manufacturer, with some minor edits:

“They're making the firmware ready for end-users to re-program the keyboards. The function will be ready by the end of this month, which is in about 2 weeks. They said the interface might not look good, but they'll open it so the end-users can make their own interface.”

This was the #1 piece of feedback I’ve received in the past few days, and now, it looks like we have a path forward here!

Sounds awesome, I hope there will be a second drop after the firmware is out in the open!
(I can't afford two boards right now, so I'm only buying a full-sized as a gift, but I'm looking forward to a programmable 60% in the future for myself.)

[dwolvin]

Jeebus- sixhunnert and four!  I wouldn't have guessed this would be that popular!  Heck, I tossed a link on my face book for the heck of it and somebody registered with Massdrop for the fist time to get it. 

[zslane]

Since the springs are tied to the type of case, I wonder which of the two are driving people's choices. Are people getting the case they want and simply accepting the springs that are tied to it, or are they getting the spring resistance they want and settling for the case? Since they are inextricably tied together, there is no way to know which case type or spring resistance is more popular. And that means current sales data won't be (as) helpful for directing available options for future rounds.

[fohat.digs]

I am holding off for 3 months in anticipation of the tactile model.

If that never happens, I may be kicking myself.

[Krogenar]

I am holding off for 3 months in anticipation of the tactile model.

If that never happens, I may be kicking myself.

Same boat as you. Very, very tempted now that fullsize is available on MD, but if tactile is future option I'll wait.

[XMIT]

Since they are inextricably tied together, there is no way to know which case type or spring resistance is more popular. And that means current sales data won't be (as) helpful for directing available options for future rounds.

False. The data is incredibly helpful. A concrete example follows.

The "alternate springs" option allows people to clearly state a preference for switch weight. When they select it, they are saying, "I want to try the other spring weight, so much so that I'm willing to spend two hours doing it myself."

So far, something very near 50% of buyers have requested the "alternate springs" option. This is incredibly compelling data.

I'm chatting with the manufacturer to see if we can, behind the scenes, just offer more spring weight options. Think of it as having the "alternate weight" springs pre-installed. I don't want to bait and switch orders, but I don't want to make hundreds of people take their boards apart either.

[SpAmRaY]

I am holding off for 3 months in anticipation of the tactile model.

If that never happens, I may be kicking myself.

Same boat as you. Very, very tempted now that fullsize is available on MD, but if tactile is future option I'll wait.

Whoa....who is this guy?

Sup Krog long time no see man.

[romevi]

Probably won't be able to join this drop, but I'd love to be able to get one secondhand if no more rounds will be run.

[Krogenar]

Whoa....who is this guy?

Sup Krog long time no see man.

Sup Ray! Yeah, I still follow the forum. Mostly I just lurk, seeing as I have most of the 'boards I lusted after.
The Hall Effect switches though, very tempting. How've you been?

[zslane]

I'm chatting with the manufacturer to see if we can, behind the scenes, just offer more spring weight options. Think of it as having the "alternate weight" springs pre-installed.

I anxiously await the results of your chat with them. It would mean the difference between me buying two boards now or waiting for a future group buy when this option is made available.

[Niomosy]

Actually, on the spring weight data, it's good to proceed with perhaps a bit caution and consider some additional polls to get additional data.

Take me as an example.  For a mere $5 more, I get the springs on the off chance I might need or want them.  For that price, I'll take them as I might want to go variable weight and have heavier springs in certain locations.  That said, I wouldn't go full 70g springs as I already find MX blacks fatiguing on the fingers with prolonged use.

[fohat.digs]

Too many options for a group as opinionated as keyboard enthusiasts.

Personally, I want light springs and tactile switches. Bamboo would be fine since the screws don't show, but metal would be better. How's that?

[zslane]

That said, I wouldn't go full 70g springs as I already find MX blacks fatiguing on the fingers with prolonged use.

I do too. However, bear in mind that these 70g springs produce a resistance more like 50g, whereas MX blacks are around 65g. 50 is closer to 45 than 65...

[romevi]

That said, I wouldn't go full 70g springs as I already find MX blacks fatiguing on the fingers with prolonged use.

I do too. However, bear in mind that these 70g springs produce a resistance more like 50g, whereas MX blacks are around 65g. 50 is closer to 45 than 65...

Aren't MX Blacks closer to 80g bottoming out?

[XMIT]

HaaTa's data shows MX Black bottoming out at 76-78g.


https://plot.ly/~haata/72

[XMIT]

We're featured in Tom's Hardware! http://www.tomshardware.com/news/xmit-hall-effect-keyboard-massdrop,33060.html