Author Topic: Missing 5ub  (Read 3225 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Missing 5ub
« on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 07:18:12 »
So the news headlines say they use a logitech controller.

Now, most news sites use the F710 photo, white one, which is wireless,  they used a wireless logitech controller? Why ?  don't they know ?


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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 07:50:45 »
Apparently the vehicle was not well thought of in the deep submersible community.
Cognitive distortions are patterns of thought, typically automatic and unconscious, that cause an inaccurate, negative view of situations, people, and/or events. These include things like jumping to conclusions; black-and-white thinking; negative mental filtering; overgeneralizing; mindreading (incorrectly believing we know what others are thinking, what their motives are); and emotional reasoning (believing that if we are feeling something, or if what we are thinking is associated with a strong emotion, it must be true).
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 15:07:32 »
The controller is a stupid story.
The U.S. Navy uses an Xbox controller to raise and lower periscopes on subs and have discussed using them for much more. What difference does it make if the joysticks are in a $30 controller or a $30k panel, it's still the same sticks, you, the taxpayer just paid more for it. From what I've seen about the boat, the controller may have been one of the least janky things on that sub.


Regardless,
I'm not sure I'd spend $250k to sit on a mattress (or board, there are no seats) for 8 hours so I can look out a tiny window (that we all share) so we can get a glimpse of a small portion of a rusty hulk (you can't see very far). The pictures you see of Titanic are composites of hundreds or thousands of pictures with super bright lights and long exposure. If you can see more than a 30 foot section of the ship at a time I'd be surprised.


As for them and the sub
The moment they were lost they were done. There's nothing in the area capable of finding them let alone helping them, at this depth nothing comes easy. It doesn't help that the company founder HATES rules, he thinks they're unnecessary and fought hard against them, the sub is even classified in a way specifically to get around safety regulations, other than the oxygen this thing has almost zero safety features and backups and they had no plan for rescue if something did go wrong. F.A.F.O.


Edit/update
Found an article that told a bit more...
The window is larger than I thought, at least externally (they usually taper inward) and while a passenger claimed there was some safety measures it doesn't seem like much and that their success rate of actually reaching the Titanic is actually not very good (lucky if they get one good dive in a week, often without success).
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 June 2023, 15:27:41 by Leslieann »
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 15:37:21 »
After all these years, Maybe they'd at least upgrade to the Kong 2 controller with drift free precision hall effect joysticks?


The navy probably doesn't use a regular xbox one, they'd prolly have their own board with better parts.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 17:13:59 »
The navy probably doesn't use a regular xbox one, they'd prolly have their own board with better parts.[/size][/color]
It's literally an off-the-shelf Xbox controller.
They like it because the troops are familiar with it and adapt easily plus it's cheap and easy to replace.

The military doesn't always buy through normal suppliers.


Hey, they finally got something better than mil-spec!
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 17:27:51 »
The navy probably doesn't use a regular xbox one, they'd prolly have their own board with better parts.[/size][/color]
It's literally an off-the-shelf Xbox controller.
They like it because the troops are familiar with it and adapt easily plus it's cheap and easy to replace.

The military doesn't always buy through normal suppliers.


Hey, they finally got something better than mil-spec!

Your thoughts on gigabyte mil-spec motherboard ?



Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 18:42:17 »
Military uses base Xbox 360 controllers last I saw them 6 years ago. They are non-modded and wired.

Offline Rhienfo

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 18:53:54 »
This story is so stupid from the ground up. Imagine paying 360K to go into a claustrophobic deathtrap made by a company whose CEO said safety regulations "Inhibit Progress" and gasping for air and dying alone in the darkness of the ocean. You couldn't pay me that much to go in that sub.

Also a thing that isn't mentioned here is that even if they did surface they have to be able to find a crew in like 24hours and get them out, because there is no exit that can be accessed internally. These are the most dead people ever.

Some people are so stupid, even if I feel bad for them because it does look like an awful way to go.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 19:15:24 »
Tp4 not a subs guy, reading the depth thing is confusing,

So, are they saying, even if we found them, if they're beyond a certain depth even our best navy sub can't get to them because they're not purpose built for those depths ?


Offline Rhienfo

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 19:24:24 »
Tp4 not a subs guy, reading the depth thing is confusing,

So, are they saying, even if we found them, if they're beyond a certain depth even our best navy sub can't get to them because they're not purpose built for those depths ?



Wouldn't they probably need to resurface, because those navy subs don't have the ability to get them underwater, especially at those pressure, but I'm also not a sub expert so that's what I think happens.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 19:30:10 »
Do subs have a rubber sucker docking seal thing-y, how can they open the sub underwater to get the people out.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 19:46:51 »
Do subs have a rubber sucker docking seal thing-y, how can they open the sub underwater to get the people out.

Yeah, they can dock rescue vehicles to the hatch with a seal which usually works since they don't generally go super deep. They would have enough oxygen to sit there for a few days, like 3 max, before breathing gets too difficult.
But larger subs, like an Ohio Class, have these for escape and sometimes they have these balloons that inflate underwater and carry you to the surface:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_trunk

Offline Rhienfo

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 19:53:03 »
Do subs have a rubber sucker docking seal thing-y, how can they open the sub underwater to get the people out.

Yeah, they can dock rescue vehicles to the hatch with a seal which usually works since they don't generally go super deep. They would have enough oxygen to sit there for a few days, like 3 max, before breathing gets too difficult.
But larger subs, like an Ohio Class, have these for escape and sometimes they have these balloons that inflate underwater and carry you to the surface:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_trunk

oh ok then, but for this example with the sub, wouldn't they still need a crew externally to unhatch them, as they can't do it internally, which would be impossible if they can't resurface. Idk maybe I'm being stupid.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 21 June 2023, 20:37:18 »
The hatch is bolted in place from the outside.

It seems to me that they would have some sort of inflateable float that would take them to the top in an emergency, and a radio beacon with its own battery ....
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 22 June 2023, 14:04:07 »
Your thoughts on gigabyte mil-spec motherboard ?
I haven't even looked at it, but...
Mil-spec = designed for the village idiot and built by the lowest bidder.


So, are they saying, even if we found them, if they're beyond a certain depth even our best navy sub can't get to them because they're not purpose built for those depths ?
There's 5 subs capable of this depth.
There was 2 others, both owned by this company but both have been deemed unsafe due to stress cracks due to design flaws...

None of those subs can do a rescue and none of them have the power to lift this.

Do subs have a rubber sucker docking seal thing-y, how can they open the sub underwater to get the people out.

Yes they exist, but the deepest that has ever worked was only at around 1500 feet, our biggest nuclear subs are only tested to around 1800 feet.

This is 12,500.
If we had a ship capable of rescue at even half this depth it would be as secret as nuclear launch codes.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 22 June 2023, 14:05:37 »
If you haven't seen it yet..

A debris field has been found near the Titanic that includes the rear cover and a landing skid.
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 22 June 2023, 14:14:57 »
They were also saying some people on the team voiced concerns about the hull's stability a few times prior.
It was a max capacity Cyclops. The o2 could not have lasted this long even if the hull integrity remained intact, this is a recovery mission now.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 22 June 2023, 15:51:10 »
If you haven't seen it yet..

A debris field has been found near the Titanic that includes the rear cover and a landing skid.

Is this confirmed ? Can it function without the rear cover and skid ?

Those Logitech controllers are back in stock though. LOL

I don't understand this debris field,  it could be anything. how do they know it's this sub?


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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 22 June 2023, 16:22:40 »
Bit of info for those curious and why this was probably never going to happen.


Radio waves do not travel well through water, like, at all. You need to get down to single hz for it to work, known as VLF, very low frequency. AM radio barely reaches into ultra low frequency, even low hz AM radio (500hz) only penetrates water about 100 feet or so. This means communication is hard. It also means GPS doesn't work underwater. We do have single hz radio systems, Cameron Crow used it when exploring the Titanic and his Challenger Deep sub to the bottom of the Marianas Trench so you can get it and use it but it's expensive so these guys just couldn't be bothered because, you know, jank. Once they got more than 30 feet down they had almost no comms.

When diving, you know where something is underwater because of side scan sonar (like a big fish finder), we aim a sonar sideways and we can pinpoint an object underwater. This gives you a precise location relative to the surface and you can then park your ship right above it. However, as soon as you breach the surface and dive you start to drift and you have no longer have GPS to guide you down to that object, in shallow water you drop a guide line and divers can follow it down but that too can drift so divers/ROV/subs can spend quite a while looking for the target. Getting back to this sub, they sank 12k feet, that can translate to being miles off course by the time it reaches bottom and worse still, the sub is carbon fiber (will that even show up?) and it's wreckage could be mixed in with rocks or Titanic's debris. Basically it gives you potential targets, nothing precise and you have to check them all one at a time, between drift and lack of gps you could spend hours running around looking for the target only to find it was a rock or Titanic debris. People spend years looking for shipwrecks even in shallow water with plenty of natural light. At the depths we're talking here, your field of view is 20 maybe 30 feet. Not only could you keep searching the same area and over due to poor navigation, you could pass by it by 40 feet 100 times and not see it. All that time, just to eliminate a target.

None of the rescue equipment is common or easily transported and none of it was on site.
It's big, it's heavy (it needs to withstand 6000 psi, imagine 2 cars balanced your thumbnail), it needs additional support equipment and people (lots of people). Most are setup on semi-dedicated boats, an ROV and sub capable of this needs a pretty large boat as well as a crane to lift them in and out of the water. It can be moved from one boat to another but it typically takes 24-48 hours to teardown and setup. This equipment reached the docks in Canada last night, it then still needed to travel over 200 miles by boat. It takes a while to arrange, shut down, prep, crate, and move as this stuff is often in use on other projects around the world. You also need a boat with a winch capable of lifting the subs weight plus the  2.5 miles of cable, at that length, a lot of ropes and cables and such can't even support their own weight, let alone the sub, that too requires a dedicated ship. Some ships like the sonar, crane and host ships are more common and nearby ones simply sailed there on their own to await the rest of the equipment and people but the ROV and sub were too far away and needed to be flown in, being so large and heavy the Canadian and US military had to be called in to transport them as most other means of air freight couldn't or couldn't do it fast enough.

The logistics of this "rescue" was crazy and quite expensive and even if you had found it intact it's too deep to use a crew transfer tube, drilling into it to give more air could cause it to implode and the sub has no attachment point where you can hook onto it easily. Even pulling on the strut could cause structural issues to worsen. Which as it turns out this was a problem.

Given all that, and the time frame... Was a rescue really realistic?
That whole "4 days of air" was for a surface rescue, it was never going to save them from anything on the bottom.


Here's what I find the most annoying thing about all of this.
These people spent $250-$350k to ride on this thing and supposedly the company wasn't making a profit. Okay, but money obviously isn't an issue for any of these these people, they were cheap by choice, not because they were on a budget. Can you honestly tell me that if they had charged an extra $40k, $70k, or even $200k more that they would have lost any more customers than they lost due to refunds and people bailing out as soon as they saw this thing?  With sonar, gps and comms, they would have known as soon as they were in trouble, if they were alive, determined drift and guided them to a spot were they could easily be located. They could have even had telemetry feedback as well so they would know if it had imploded. You could even install a loop/hook on top (I mean, come on!) and have an ROV/crane combo on standby to rescue as well. Granted, it's very likely none of that would have helped them in this specific scenario but it could have on others and certainly would have changed how this rescue was mounted because we would have known a lot more right away.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 22 June 2023, 16:26:55 »
Is this confirmed ? Can it function without the rear cover and skid ?

I don't understand this debris field,  it could be anything. how do they know it's this sub?
Yes, Coast Guard confirmed it.

As for the debris field, there is before and after pics, nothing else has been down there.
This is also only a small sample of the pics they have and they may have gotten an ROV on site to check.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 22 June 2023, 16:46:54 »
So the rescue was never possible to begin with?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 22 June 2023, 23:36:38 »
So the rescue was never possible to begin with?
Pretty much.
Maritime law says you make the attempt because your assessment could be wrong (or they get lucky) and it could be you next time.



Oh and the company will not be liable for the rescue costs.
They don't want anyone to hesitate to ask for help or waiting until it's too late and it's seen as everyone's responsibility while out there. Something this extreme is also good training for rescue crews, inter-country and inter-agency relations, all of which seemed to have been handled well.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 23 June 2023, 01:24:02 »
Batmosub goes down to 12000 and just grapple hooks the sub first try, then Jet out of the surface of the water converting to fly mode, and wades into the sunset.

I was kind of expecting something like that from the US military given all the money they spend.

They wouldn't spend the resource to save a commoner, but these were billionaires.



Offline Leslieann

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 23 June 2023, 02:20:16 »
I was kind of expecting something like that from the US military given all the money they spend.

They wouldn't spend the resource to save a commoner, but these were billionaires.
No billionaire is worth that level of state secret and it's not like the money dies with them, it just changes hands, which is often taxed.

If the CIA had the ability, and they would be the ones to have it not the military, I'm not sure they would risk revealing it even to save the President himself.
The man is replaceable (we vote on it every 4 years), the ability to sneak onto a sunken enemy sub and loot it for secrets that effect world power for the next few decades is not. It wouldn't eve be be the first time we did it.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 23 June 2023, 07:08:09 »
The right image for those that didn't see the news is a refugee migrant boat which sank off the coast of Greece. ~500 dead.

299993-0

Offline Rhienfo

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 23 June 2023, 08:47:46 »
The right image for those that didn't see the news is a refugee migrant boat which sank off the coast of Greece. ~500 dead.

(Attachment Link)

I mean yeah you're right and that stuff is horrifying to see, but the sub story was a distraction by the woke media in order to distract from the hunter biden and the biden crime family /s

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 23 June 2023, 09:06:45 »
I mean yeah you're right and that stuff is horrifying to see, but the sub story was a distraction by the woke media in order to distract from the hunter biden and the biden crime family /s

The choice between democrat and repub, is a choice between 2 crime families. All Oligarchs / The ruling class are criminals.

Their imposed economic system robs the poor of wealth and basic dignity.

If you track $2 worth of rice back to the origin, The person who grew it got $0.05 cents.

The dumbest part of all this is, that stolen wealth isn't even making the rich happy, they do the stupid things they do, and sink to the bottom of the ocean, or pay out millions for psychiatric help/ medication.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 23 June 2023, 14:54:35 »
The right image for those that didn't see the news is a refugee migrant boat which sank off the coast of Greece. ~500 dead.

The sub got a lot of coverage, it was interesting. Think about it, Titanic, Billionaires, a homemade sub, a $30 controller(The horror!)... That story was made for news reporting. No doubt in less than 2 months we get some crappy documentary, 6 months we'll get a good documentary, in 2 years a star filled blockbuster dramatization and in 5-10 years a "re-imagining" where they get saved. This story was made for TV and news reporting, especially in a 24 hour news cycle like we have these days, one station even ran a ticker with oxygen remaining countdown the entire time. I pretty much guarantee you studios already got publishing rights and publishers signed 3 book deals.

As for the migrant boat, it WAS covered. You heard about it right?
How much do you expect them to drag that out over the course of 5 days like the sub story? What sort of updates did you expect? They covered it and moved on, same as a car accident, fire, etc.. This is just more fake outrage. If you want real outrage, this wasn't a one time thing, it's been constant lately, this just happened to be the biggest so far, which is the only reason you even heard about it at all.


Messed up? Yeah.
News media is still media, it's there to sell eyeballs, they pick and chose what to cover based on that, why are you shocked they didn't cover this instead of the sub? And no this is not a "mainstream media" thing, it's how all media operates, mainstream, independent, they all want and need eyeballs to sell ad space.
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Offline Rhienfo

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 23 June 2023, 20:53:54 »
The right image for those that didn't see the news is a refugee migrant boat which sank off the coast of Greece. ~500 dead.

The sub got a lot of coverage, it was interesting. Think about it, Titanic, Billionaires, a homemade sub, a $30 controller(The horror!)... That story was made for news reporting. No doubt in less than 2 months we get some crappy documentary, 6 months we'll get a good documentary, in 2 years a star filled blockbuster dramatization and in 5-10 years a "re-imagining" where they get saved. This story was made for TV and news reporting, especially in a 24 hour news cycle like we have these days, one station even ran a ticker with oxygen remaining countdown the entire time. I pretty much guarantee you studios already got publishing rights and publishers signed 3 book deals.

As for the migrant boat, it WAS covered. You heard about it right?
How much do you expect them to drag that out over the course of 5 days like the sub story? What sort of updates did you expect? They covered it and moved on, same as a car accident, fire, etc.. This is just more fake outrage. If you want real outrage, this wasn't a one time thing, it's been constant lately, this just happened to be the biggest so far, which is the only reason you even heard about it at all.


Messed up? Yeah.
News media is still media, it's there to sell eyeballs, they pick and chose what to cover based on that, why are you shocked they didn't cover this instead of the sub? And no this is not a "mainstream media" thing, it's how all media operates, mainstream, independent, they all want and need eyeballs to sell ad space.

Yeah you are probably right, migrant ships capsizing has been a occurring issue for years, I saw a documentary/gameshow? about a bunch of anti-immigrant people going through a potential journey of a refugee in my religion class (which is more of an ethics and identity class rather than explicitly talking about religion) and a lot of the refugees they talk to detail a lot of this stuff and just how harrowing it is. It's just more newsworthy and entertaining to hear about the missing sub than constantly focusing on the thousands of people who die trying to flee war torn countries every year.

Also If a blockbuster ever came out about the sub, it would be made by James Cameron I can guarantee it.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Missing 5ub
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 23 June 2023, 21:06:07 »
I didn't even know about the refugee boat that sank until today, they estimate over people 350 died.
All people are talking about are 5 millionaires.
Earth is weird.