Author Topic: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]  (Read 657503 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline SpAmRaY

  • NOT a Moderator
  • * Certified Spammer
  • Posts: 14667
  • Location: ¯\(°_o)/¯
  • because reasons.......
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #600 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 07:49:13 »
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....

Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D

Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D

I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0

oooo. very nice

Thanks. Here in India, dust is a major plague and covers are essential

My office is very dusty. I cover my keyboard every night.

Offline TheQsanity

  • Posts: 1165
  • SmallFry Lovin'
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #601 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 07:55:35 »
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!

Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 August 2013, 07:58:00 by TheQsanity »
SmallFry! <3

Offline insilica

  • Posts: 259
  • Location: GCHQ
  • Keyboard Geeza
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #602 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 08:04:04 »
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....

Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D

Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D

I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0

oooo. very nice

Thanks. Here in India, dust is a major plague and covers are essential

My office is very dusty. I cover my keyboard every night.

My office not as dusty, though I always cover my keyboards. For my Topre boards I'm coping with acetates, bent on the long edges to arch over my RF and 660C... and the Filco just came with a dust cover :D
FreeBSD :: Gentoo :: Arch :: [Project Roswell] :: U2410 Eyefinity :: WC P280 :: 3930K [C2] (4.5GHz)
ASUS Maximus IV :: 64GB Vengeance :: MSI 7970 xFire ::  Seasonic 1KW :: M4 256GB

REALFORCE 87U Silent (Variable) | Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja TKL (Brown) | FC660C

Offline Thimplum

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1101
  • Master of all Ponies
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #603 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 08:17:19 »
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!

Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)

He has several laser cutters and an unlimited supply of 1.5mm acrylic.
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline Demonmaker

  • Posts: 17
  • Location: isle of man
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #604 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 08:59:39 »
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!

Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)

He has several laser cutters and an unlimited supply of 1.5mm acrylic.

So jealous right now, I could cry  :'(   wonderfull new pictures as well, thanks for rubbing it in even more   :))
Adding a cover for the split ergo would be fantastic too, as an added extra for cost.

Offline thadood

  • Posts: 64
  • Location: Memphis, TN
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #605 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 10:46:00 »
Show Image


Oh my glob I want this. This would be a perfect notebook kb and would pair with my forth-coming Ergodoxen!

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #606 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 13:11:31 »
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!

Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)

He has several laser cutters and an unlimited supply of 1.5mm acrylic.

So jealous right now, I could cry  :'(   wonderfull new pictures as well, thanks for rubbing it in even more   :))
Adding a cover for the split ergo would be fantastic too, as an added extra for cost.

It's more like an unlimited supply of 3mm & 6mm ;) We don't use 1.5mm all that much, and from my recent experiences with using it for a plate, I've been less than thrilled with the results. However, I have a few ideas in mind to get around it. I do also have access to a benchtop CNC lathe & mill.

I've had a design in mind for a cover, but haven't offered anything yet because I'm still working on the PCB design and layout, which can affect the design of the case. Once I've got those settled out completely, a new set of stands, keystation, & covers will be designed to match.

Offline MOZ

  • KING OF THE NEWBIES
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 3981
  • Location: Jo'burg
  • Busy making stuff
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #607 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 13:40:08 »
Can't wait. Must. Have

Offline Thimplum

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1101
  • Master of all Ponies
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #608 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 13:44:11 »
Can't wait. Must. Have

Looks like we'll be waiting a little longer.
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline Demonmaker

  • Posts: 17
  • Location: isle of man
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #609 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 14:58:20 »

So jealous right now, I could cry  :'(   wonderfull new pictures as well, thanks for rubbing it in even more   :))
Adding a cover for the split ergo would be fantastic too, as an added extra for cost.


I've had a design in mind for a cover, but haven't offered anything yet because I'm still working on the PCB design and layout, which can affect the design of the case. Once I've got those settled out completely, a new set of stands, keystation, & covers will be designed to match.

Thats great to hear, thank you.

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #610 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 14:58:54 »
Can't wait. Must. Have

Looks like we'll be waiting a little longer.

Hopefully the delay should only be a week or two longer than originally planned, I'm going to put a bit of extra money in to get everything shipped faster, and I'll be sending the PCB designs in this weekend.

Offline Thimplum

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1101
  • Master of all Ponies
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #611 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 15:00:15 »
Can't wait. Must. Have

Looks like we'll be waiting a little longer.

Hopefully the delay should only be a week or two longer than originally planned, I'm going to put a bit of extra money in to get everything shipped faster, and I'll be sending the PCB designs in this weekend.


Sorry if I missed it(as mentioned above the thread is a bit TL;DR), but when was planned?
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #612 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 15:07:44 »
I was originally targeting for right around now to make the prototype batch available, however the switch on the controllers for the boards has required a bit of retool + test. Between having to study up on the new controllers (datasheets are so boring) and then rerouting everything at the top, it's been a bit time consuming. The good news of course is it means you guys are getting a much more reliable product by the time it reaches you.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 August 2013, 19:07:47 by AcidFire »

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #613 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 19:51:49 »
To elaborate a bit more about the types of changes I'm making and why the delays are a good thing for those wanting it, I'll talk about the thumbpads I'm currently designing. When I made the decision to change how the boards were controlled, I did so for a couple of reasons.
1) Removes the need for a second & third set of firmware to maintain & update.
2) Lowers the QA potential problems by removing complication, see 1.
3) Removes a very serious potential support problem of users not being able to update the modules in their keyboards
4) While the new parts will cost 5.00-2.00 more per board depending on volume, they simplify development, both for me and for end users. There's no chance of breaking someones custom code or application, because there is no firmware to update on the boards and potentially break someone else's code.
5) The new parts allow for a much greater expandability. Not only do they allow more devices to be added without seperate firmwares for each board, they also allow me to build a controller that can recognize what has been attached to it without users having to figure it out. It also means that if you want to build a set up using only 4x5 modules, you can do so easily without much tinkering.

As I detailed in an earlier post, due to the lack of available I/O, the main boards can't support a detectable variation in the layout. However, for the thumb board, this new system is ideal. There's just one problem however. Due to the size of the packages I'm using, and my commitment to using parts that you can actually place & solder yourself without needing to reflow (like the the tiny tiny LGA packages I've learned to hate >_<), I needed to increase the size of the board to fit the new chips & their support electronics. while it would be nicer to have smaller boards, this increase allows the electronics to be added, a pair of 3.5mm TRRS jacks for flexibility, AND where the previous boards would max out at a possible 11 buttons, moving the electronics frees up an extra spot. Now, this spot isn't usable when the boards are used in the split design, but it is available when using them as external keypads, increasing the usability.

Offline MOZ

  • KING OF THE NEWBIES
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 3981
  • Location: Jo'burg
  • Busy making stuff
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #614 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 19:54:08 »
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

Offline Thimplum

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1101
  • Master of all Ponies
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #615 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 19:55:20 »
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

He's not a newb haha.
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline MOZ

  • KING OF THE NEWBIES
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 3981
  • Location: Jo'burg
  • Busy making stuff
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #616 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 19:56:25 »
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

He's not a newb haha.

A measure of newb is my the length of time one has been on a forum, him, you and I, all three of us are newbs

Offline Thimplum

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1101
  • Master of all Ponies
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #617 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:01:31 »
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

He's not a newb haha.

A measure of newb is my the length of time one has been on a forum, him, you and I, all three of us are newbs

I would classify CPT as a newb.
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #618 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:39:11 »
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

Sorry, what exactly should I not be bothering with?

Offline MOZ

  • KING OF THE NEWBIES
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 3981
  • Location: Jo'burg
  • Busy making stuff
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #619 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:40:29 »
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

Sorry, what exactly should I not be bothering with?

Your creations.

Offline Thimplum

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1101
  • Master of all Ponies
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #620 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:40:53 »
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.

Sorry, what exactly should I not be bothering with?

Him. Don't feed the trolls. He's turned.
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline linziyi

  • Posts: 386
  • The one with many questions
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #621 on: Fri, 16 August 2013, 20:42:08 »
He is just under a nervous breakdown, maybe some issues in real life which got ignited by some comments in IRC. I think he would be fine after some time, so don't worry about it.
Ducky DK9008G2 Pro

"Much to learn you still have" --Yoda


Offline wesleyh

  • Posts: 19
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #622 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 12:30:22 »
Just posting this here in case you haven't seen it yet acidfire, some cool modifications made to the original ergodox design:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157633538408496/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157634289665901/


Offline Dynamo

  • Posts: 13
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #623 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 13:34:58 »
I am impressed by your work AcidFire.

Being new to the world of keyboard hacking I have a few questions regarding your keyboards.

1. Will your keyboards work with different keyboard layouts for other languages than English? Some layouts use more keys than standard US keyboards provide. Will your keyboard be easily programmable for non-English characters?

2. I usually rest my palms against a palm rest when I type. Will the edge between the thumb keyboard and the main keyboard feel uncomfortable if you rest your hands against the keyboard?

3. Regarding your 70% design. Have you considered putting an angle between the left and right keyboard part to avoid ulnar deviation?

Offline linziyi

  • Posts: 386
  • The one with many questions
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #624 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 15:36:18 »
I am impressed by your work AcidFire.

Being new to the world of keyboard hacking I have a few questions regarding your keyboards.

1. Will your keyboards work with different keyboard layouts for other languages than English? Some layouts use more keys than standard US keyboards provide. Will your keyboard be easily programmable for non-English characters?

2. I usually rest my palms against a palm rest when I type. Will the edge between the thumb keyboard and the main keyboard feel uncomfortable if you rest your hands against the keyboard?

3. Regarding your 70% design. Have you considered putting an angle between the left and right keyboard part to avoid ulnar deviation?

Yeah you can program different layout into the keyboard firmware.
Ducky DK9008G2 Pro

"Much to learn you still have" --Yoda


Offline speedkills

  • Posts: 13
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #625 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 21:34:24 »
Finally finished reading the thread.  Awesome concept, I am in to buy one, er actually at least two.  Definitely down for the prototype.  I have a few thoughts floating around in my head after reading all of these posts so I am just going to throw them all out there, if you like any of them cool, if not I won't be hurt and want to buy some of these either way.  I am an owner of many ergo keyboards including my freshly built ergodox a couple of months back as well as a programmer so let me know if I can help in any way.  Ok here goes.

1. I love that you are going bluetooth.  Personally I say don't sweat the ios compatibility, just put a bluetooth radio in each unit.  Besides making the whole thing easier to put together I would say you would be benefitting more gamers who might want to use a single board only as a gaming board than you would be harming people wanting to hook these up to their ipads.  I can't imagine that many people doing that, I rarely see anyone using a keyboard with their ipad and when I do it is either a keyboard case or an apple wireless keyboard.

2.  The increased separation on the pinkie and index fingers are great.  Personally I like even more curve between columns but I don't think many people would agree with me on that.  As you increase the separation you actually make this more piano like.  As most piano players know rsi is greatly reduced when you stop curling your fingers, but to curl less when typing you almost need a greater difference between column heights to account for finger length.  Try holding your fingers straight out and see how much easier it is to move them independently than when they are curled.  Makes a huge difference for me.

3.  Is a custom lithium ion pack needed?  Just asking, I have no idea of the power requirements but I know just having a charger with some AA eneloops in it works great for my other wireless devices.  Cheap and easy, and in a pinch AA's are easy to find.  I am not against a lithium ion pack though, just wondering if you save anything not needing the charging components.

4.  A couple of extra keys on the bottom to allow four way movement keys truly ergonomic style would be awesome.  It is the one feature I really miss when I am not using they keyboard, I never liked the Kinisis Advantage style layout as much.  I am now using my ergodox daily but never could find an ideal layout that allowed me to have something similar to the truly ergonomic's:
left up/down right               home pg up/pg dn  end

5. Someone asked about unused keys on the ergodox.  I don't use any of the furthest out thumb cluster keys, they are too hard to reach.  I don't use the extra keys that would be between 6 and 7 on a regular keyboard either, I tend to miss them and hit the larger 1.5 size keys below them.

6.  I think you have designed in some extra LEDs to show what layer I am on through some combination of lights.  Just wanted to say, awesome.  After three months of usage once every couple of weeks I still end up lost in a layer I am not sure of on my Ergodox and the quickest way to get back to good is to just unplug my keyboard and plug it back in.  Can't tell you how silly I feel rebooting my keyboard to quickly get back to work.

7.  I agree with some of the general concepts shown at http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/9187587157/in/set-72157634289665901  My thumb doesn't move the same way as my other fingers, it wants to move down as it moves away from my palm, not on the same plane as the rest of my fingers. I guess the best way of saying that is that on the Z axis as I extend my thumb away from my hand it wants to move closer to the desk.  I actually end up using my thumb to hit the inner most key on the bottom row of my ergodox that is not on the thumb cluster more than anything else except space. I use that key as my main "swap to symbols" layer when programming and have found it more comfortable to keep the thumb pretty close to my hand instead of stretching it to reach the thumb cluster.

8.  If using plate mount, could the mount be somehow made small enough to fit inside of the main case instead of being a part of it. The best way I can explain this is that if you have an ergodox without palm rests and wanted to switch to a ergodox case with palm rests you could not, because the plate is doing two jobs, holding the keys in place, and two being part of the main cases structure.  Makes it hard to do cool lego like switching of cases.  Without that one feature you could pretty easily swap cases every few months as you saw fit.  The ergodox plate hasn't stopped me from opening my switches and swapping springs, just means I can never swap cases unless I want to desolder every key.

9.  Last one, I promise.  Can your design accept input from the computer that would allow me to switch layers?  I would loooooove to be able to write an app that would switch profiles based on what application has focus, I could automatically switch key layers/mappings based on whether vim, photoshop, chrome, or a video game had the focus.  How cool would that be?

Thanks for your awesome work, now please take my money!!!

-Shane

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #626 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 02:37:11 »
I am impressed by your work AcidFire.

Being new to the world of keyboard hacking I have a few questions regarding your keyboards.

1. Will your keyboards work with different keyboard layouts for other languages than English? Some layouts use more keys than standard US keyboards provide. Will your keyboard be easily programmable for non-English characters?

2. I usually rest my palms against a palm rest when I type. Will the edge between the thumb keyboard and the main keyboard feel uncomfortable if you rest your hands against the keyboard?

3. Regarding your 70% design. Have you considered putting an angle between the left and right keyboard part to avoid ulnar deviation?
1. Thats the plan, you'll be able to change the language on the board, and even set it depending on a layer, so you could have russian/cyrillic on one layer, and english on another.

2. It hasn't so far, but I haven't spent hours typing on it either. because of the way the top is design though, adjustments can be made easily.

3. Yup. You'll see something up about this either tomorrow or Monday.

Finally finished reading the thread.  Awesome concept, I am in to buy one, er actually at least two.  Definitely down for the prototype.  I have a few thoughts floating around in my head after reading all of these posts so I am just going to throw them all out there, if you like any of them cool, if not I won't be hurt and want to buy some of these either way.  I am an owner of many ergo keyboards including my freshly built ergodox a couple of months back as well as a programmer so let me know if I can help in any way.  Ok here goes.

1. I love that you are going bluetooth.  Personally I say don't sweat the ios compatibility, just put a bluetooth radio in each unit.  Besides making the whole thing easier to put together I would say you would be benefitting more gamers who might want to use a single board only as a gaming board than you would be harming people wanting to hook these up to their ipads.  I can't imagine that many people doing that, I rarely see anyone using a keyboard with their ipad and when I do it is either a keyboard case or an apple wireless keyboard.

2.  The increased separation on the pinkie and index fingers are great.  Personally I like even more curve between columns but I don't think many people would agree with me on that.  As you increase the separation you actually make this more piano like.  As most piano players know rsi is greatly reduced when you stop curling your fingers, but to curl less when typing you almost need a greater difference between column heights to account for finger length.  Try holding your fingers straight out and see how much easier it is to move them independently than when they are curled.  Makes a huge difference for me.

3.  Is a custom lithium ion pack needed?  Just asking, I have no idea of the power requirements but I know just having a charger with some AA eneloops in it works great for my other wireless devices.  Cheap and easy, and in a pinch AA's are easy to find.  I am not against a lithium ion pack though, just wondering if you save anything not needing the charging components.

4.  A couple of extra keys on the bottom to allow four way movement keys truly ergonomic style would be awesome.  It is the one feature I really miss when I am not using they keyboard, I never liked the Kinisis Advantage style layout as much.  I am now using my ergodox daily but never could find an ideal layout that allowed me to have something similar to the truly ergonomic's:
left up/down right               home pg up/pg dn  end

5. Someone asked about unused keys on the ergodox.  I don't use any of the furthest out thumb cluster keys, they are too hard to reach.  I don't use the extra keys that would be between 6 and 7 on a regular keyboard either, I tend to miss them and hit the larger 1.5 size keys below them.

6.  I think you have designed in some extra LEDs to show what layer I am on through some combination of lights.  Just wanted to say, awesome.  After three months of usage once every couple of weeks I still end up lost in a layer I am not sure of on my Ergodox and the quickest way to get back to good is to just unplug my keyboard and plug it back in.  Can't tell you how silly I feel rebooting my keyboard to quickly get back to work.

7.  I agree with some of the general concepts shown at http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/9187587157/in/set-72157634289665901  My thumb doesn't move the same way as my other fingers, it wants to move down as it moves away from my palm, not on the same plane as the rest of my fingers. I guess the best way of saying that is that on the Z axis as I extend my thumb away from my hand it wants to move closer to the desk.  I actually end up using my thumb to hit the inner most key on the bottom row of my ergodox that is not on the thumb cluster more than anything else except space. I use that key as my main "swap to symbols" layer when programming and have found it more comfortable to keep the thumb pretty close to my hand instead of stretching it to reach the thumb cluster.

8.  If using plate mount, could the mount be somehow made small enough to fit inside of the main case instead of being a part of it. The best way I can explain this is that if you have an ergodox without palm rests and wanted to switch to a ergodox case with palm rests you could not, because the plate is doing two jobs, holding the keys in place, and two being part of the main cases structure.  Makes it hard to do cool lego like switching of cases.  Without that one feature you could pretty easily swap cases every few months as you saw fit.  The ergodox plate hasn't stopped me from opening my switches and swapping springs, just means I can never swap cases unless I want to desolder every key.

9.  Last one, I promise.  Can your design accept input from the computer that would allow me to switch layers?  I would loooooove to be able to write an app that would switch profiles based on what application has focus, I could automatically switch key layers/mappings based on whether vim, photoshop, chrome, or a video game had the focus.  How cool would that be?

Thanks for your awesome work, now please take my money!!!

-Shane
Glad you managed to power through, and kudos for taking the time to actually read it all. To answer your questions:

1. I use my Apple wireless with it quite a bit, and only because there weren't a lot of options for affordable bluetooth ergo boards. I've also had a few people with disabilities tell me that they're looking forward to having a more comfortable board to use with their ipads & other devices. I mentioned the iOS limitation because it's the one I'm most familiar with, but I've heard that some other devices can have the same issue. I do know I should be able to slave one radio to the other, so that's the plan for now.

2. I'm looking forward to seeing what people who own the ergodox already have to say about the staggering I've done, I think you'll find it more pronounced than it looks.

3. It's not a custom pack per se, it is an off the shelf part. While things like AAs are convenient, there isn't enough space in the casing for them without making it thicker. Also, while there obviously needs to be some real world testing done, the pack I have in mind should last roughly as long as a set of AAs would.

4. TBH, that's what I had planned for that last row of keys, the set of 4 next to the 1.5. What do you currently use those keys for?

5. Again, interested to hear opinions on the thumb cluster, since the positioning was altered specifically to deal with the fact that they're unreachable on the ergodox.

6. Yup. Aside from the PWM controlled backlight, there are 5 RGB LEDs on each of the main boards, making for a total of 10 that can be programmed to do, well anything, including showing you what layer you're on.

7. I do as well, but for now the altered angle from the Ergodox is a bit of a compromise to reduce the amount of movement your thumb needs to make to strike the keys. Because of the modular design of the set up, something with a bit more of a curve could be switched to with minimal effort/cost for the end user.

8. Check back tomorrow for more details on this ;)

9. I believe so. TBH I haven't done anything before with talking to a device set up as an HID, but from what I'm reading, this should be entirely possible. My tablet already does this and I love it, will all come down to how I can communicate with the board.

Finally little preview of what's coming tomorrow:


I spent a bit of time with the laser today, so I've got lots to show off :D

Offline anotherjunkie

  • Posts: 17
  • Location: NC, USA
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #627 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 13:28:39 »
Finally little preview of what's coming tomorrow:
Show Image

I spent a bit of time with the laser today, so I've got lots to show off :D

I never fail to be completely amazed every time I open up this thread. Almost every day you bring us an improvement on something that was already awesome, and the number of cool things coming from this project is just staggering.

I can't wait to start grabbing the different components that you'll be putting out, and testing these configurations on my desk!

Offline JPG

  • Posts: 1124
  • Location: Canada (Beloeil, near Montreal)
  • Model F is my new passion!
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #628 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 14:55:19 »
Have you considred having an angle on the thumb cluster (different angle versus the alphas)? I don't have an ergodox, so it's hard to tell, but when I look at my hand on a natural position, if I only move my thumb it is not moving exactly in the same angle than my other fingers, so I suppose that it would be nice to have the thumb cluster in that same natural angle.

But like I said, never tried a dox so it's hard to tell, but I wanted to share this idea in case someone want to discuss it!
IBM F122, IBM XT F X2, IBM AT F (all Soarer converted), Filco Camo TKL Browns

Offline speedkills

  • Posts: 13
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #629 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 20:52:13 »
Regarding my currently layout, you can see it here.  I actually have my number row permanently shifted although it doesn't show in the diagram so I just press 8 for * as an example, and shift + 8 to actually get number 8, or more frequently hold down my layer shift key and use the 8 on the numpad.

I don't love how I have my direction keys but just didn't have enough keys to come up with a better layout, if there were one more key below the WSX column I would have just put my direction on the main layer and never have to shift to get to them, but as is the best I could do was hold down the function key with one hand and then access the full set of function keys as I like with my other hand.

Overall though this has been a huge improvement when programming.  I know plenty of people will say use the old vim style hjkl (which I do) but I also use plenty of other programs that make frequent use of arrow keys plus home/end/pg up/pg down. 

I also wish I could find one more place for a hyper key (for me basically command + ctrl + alt + shift) which makes it really easy to have shortcuts that aren't used by other modifier keys.  I currently do this by overloading the caps lock, if I tap the caps lock it is esc, if I hold it and press another key it is hyper.  I actually have a few unused keys because it didn't end up being a case of not having enough keys, it came down to not having enough keys in the right places.  The thumb cluster which looked so great on the ergodox ended up far less useful than planned, the only two keys I can conveniently reach are the two large keys, so in effect I have only three keys I can reach with each thumb, the two large keys on the main cluster, and the layer shift key I use which is the bottom row closest to the thumb cluster on each hand.  Sure does work out well though, especially setup to be a sticky key so I don't have to actually chord when I am programming, if I want to type an underscore for example I just tap the key directly below V with my left hand, then what would be H with my right hand.  Really helpful when programming in Ruby which loves variables_named_in_snake_case.

Offline kittykatmax

  • Posts: 159
  • Location: United States
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #630 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 01:20:24 »
I was thinking about joining the current MassDrop ErgoDox group buy, as I fell in love with the ErgoDox concept.  Between the unavailability of Cherry MX Browns (I need to buy it assembled) and my concerns about the thumb cluster, I'll sadly be giving it a pass.  Maybe it's the fact that it was two-dimensional, or maybe just because I'm female, but when I printed "to size" pdfs of the two halves, they felt enormous; I had a tough time with the position of the thumb clusters.  Aside from arthritis in my finger joints, I have nerve issues with my pinkies caused by neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome, plus I have problems with the tendons in my thumbs.    I've been dying for a truly split, tentable (is that even a word?), mechanical keyboard, but I also need to make sure if I'm paying $250+ that it'll actually fit my small, messed up hands. 

When I saw your project (amazing job - wish I had your skills!), I was very interested in how you lowered the thumb section. 

I have a few questions:

- Is this keyboard going to be any smaller/any easier to use for people with smaller hands vs. the ErgoDox?   

- Have you ever considered seeing if you could angle the thumb section downward, as opposed to just lowering the entire cluster (but leaving it level)? Or, perhaps having the thumb cluster attached via some sort of hinge to allow the user to adjust the angle for comfort? The human thumb rests at an angle from the hand in its neutral position, yet even the so-called "ergonomic" keyboards overlook that fact.  Great info on the anatomy of the hand at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~humananatomy/part_2/chapter_11.html

Assuming it's even feasible from a design/fabrication standpoint, angling the thumb section would allow more natural thumb movement and reach.  I have a Key Tronic FlexPro keyboard (sitting in a box, sadly, wish it was tkl and mechanical) but I always loved the fact that you could actuate the space bar not just from the top, but also from the inner edges when tenting the two keyboard sections.  It just felt RIGHT to curl my thumb inward a bit to actuate the space bar.

For all I know, I'm insane to even ask, and I hope my questions don't come across as critical of your design (or that of the ErgoDox - they're both amazing!), but as a woman with fubar thumbs AND pinkies, I was curious.  Regardless, if I could buy one of your great keyboards (assembled) with Cherry MX Browns, I would jump on the chance...IF I thought I could (reasonably) reach everything.'

Also, for people worrying about batteries, just buy some Sanyo eneloops and a charger - problem solved.  That's what Logitech uses in their G700 mice which is great, since you can have extra charged for quick swap-outs if you hate using the USB cable.

« Last Edit: Mon, 19 August 2013, 08:57:01 by kittykatmax »
Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline Dynamo

  • Posts: 13
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #631 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 08:22:56 »
AcidFire,
Thank you for your feedback. I was planning on building an Ergodox, but I think your design looks more interesting.

Today I use a traditional Swedish keyboard with the additional umlaut characters Å, Ä, Ö next to the 'L' and 'P' keys in a qwerty layout. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sweden.svg
I wish to keep a similar layout but on a more user friendly keyboard. :)

Offline wesleyh

  • Posts: 19
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #632 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 09:42:43 »
How about adding a trackpoint to the keyboard? I know you're going to be making a trackball addon, but it would be nice to have a trackpoint too, as  standard in the keyboard so we do not have to lift our fingers away from the keyboard for simple mousing operations. Just an idea!

I don't think this could be offered as an addon, could it? Since it has to be on the keyboard itself (left or right side).

Offline insilica

  • Posts: 259
  • Location: GCHQ
  • Keyboard Geeza
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #633 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 11:19:22 »
How about adding a trackpoint to the keyboard? I know you're going to be making a trackball addon, but it would be nice to have a trackpoint too, as  standard in the keyboard so we do not have to lift our fingers away from the keyboard for simple mousing operations. Just an idea!

I don't think this could be offered as an addon, could it? Since it has to be on the keyboard itself (left or right side).

Isn't there some stupid patent (s) which makes the trackpoint a no go?

Would be nice to have but not a must ;)

E.g. http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6115030
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 August 2013, 11:30:54 by insilica »
FreeBSD :: Gentoo :: Arch :: [Project Roswell] :: U2410 Eyefinity :: WC P280 :: 3930K [C2] (4.5GHz)
ASUS Maximus IV :: 64GB Vengeance :: MSI 7970 xFire ::  Seasonic 1KW :: M4 256GB

REALFORCE 87U Silent (Variable) | Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja TKL (Brown) | FC660C

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #634 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 13:00:33 »
AcidFire,
Thank you for your feedback. I was planning on building an Ergodox, but I think your design looks more interesting.

Today I use a traditional Swedish keyboard with the additional umlaut characters Å, Ä, Ö next to the 'L' and 'P' keys in a qwerty layout. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sweden.svg
I wish to keep a similar layout but on a more user friendly keyboard. :)
I'll probably need a hand testing it, but yes, the plan is to keep it multilingual friendly :)

How about adding a trackpoint to the keyboard? I know you're going to be making a trackball addon, but it would be nice to have a trackpoint too, as  standard in the keyboard so we do not have to lift our fingers away from the keyboard for simple mousing operations. Just an idea!

I don't think this could be offered as an addon, could it? Since it has to be on the keyboard itself (left or right side).

Isn't there some stupid patent (s) which makes the trackpoint a no go?

Would be nice to have but not a must ;)

E.g. http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6115030
It's not an issue of patents, it's an issue of availability. I can't order modules, I'd have to rip them from keyboards, which presents issues of supply. I'm not only looking at trackballs, but a number of options so that you guys can pick the option that best suits you.

I was thinking about joining the current MassDrop ErgoDox group buy, as I fell in love with the ErgoDox concept.  Between the unavailability of Cherry MX Browns (I need to buy it assembled) and my concerns about the thumb cluster, I'll sadly be giving it a pass.  Maybe it's the fact that it was two-dimensional, or maybe just because I'm female, but when I printed "to size" pdfs of the two halves, they felt enormous; I had a tough time with the position of the thumb clusters.  Aside from arthritis in my finger joints, I have nerve issues with my pinkies caused by neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome, plus I have problems with the tendons in my thumbs.    I've been dying for a truly split, tentable (is that even a word?), mechanical keyboard, but I also need to make sure if I'm paying $250+ that it'll actually fit my small, messed up hands. 

When I saw your project (amazing job - wish I had your skills!), I was very interested in how you lowered the thumb section. 

I have a few questions:

- Is this keyboard going to be any smaller/any easier to use for people with smaller hands vs. the ErgoDox?   

- Have you ever considered seeing if you could angle the thumb section downward, as opposed to just lowering the entire cluster (but leaving it level)? Or, perhaps having the thumb cluster attached via some sort of hinge to allow the user to adjust the angle for comfort? The human thumb rests at an angle from the hand in its neutral position, yet even the so-called "ergonomic" keyboards overlook that fact.  Great info on the anatomy of the hand at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~humananatomy/part_2/chapter_11.html

Assuming it's even feasible from a design/fabrication standpoint, angling the thumb section would allow more natural thumb movement and reach.  I have a Key Tronic FlexPro keyboard (sitting in a box, sadly, wish it was tkl and mechanical) but I always loved the fact that you could actuate the space bar not just from the top, but also from the inner edges when tenting the two keyboard sections.  It just felt RIGHT to curl my thumb inward a bit to actuate the space bar.

For all I know, I'm insane to even ask, and I hope my questions don't come across as critical of your design (or that of the ErgoDox - they're both amazing!), but as a woman with fubar thumbs AND pinkies, I was curious.  Regardless, if I could buy one of your great keyboards (assembled) with Cherry MX Browns, I would jump on the chance...IF I thought I could (reasonably) reach everything.'

Also, for people worrying about batteries, just buy some Sanyo eneloops and a charger - problem solved.  That's what Logitech uses in their G700 mice which is great, since you can have extra charged for quick swap-outs if you hate using the USB cable.
I don't think you're questions are critical at all! If I were in your situation I would be asking the same questions. Design wise, the thumb cluster seems to be reachable by smaller hands, as I've had my girlfriend test it. However, if there is a need to have the cluster tweaked and brought in a bit for smaller hands, I would be happy to design a case to bring the cluster closer, while still keeping the modularity of the keypads.

As for the drop vs a different angle, it basically came down to what I was able to produce with the tools I have at hand. If the initial Kickstarter campaign does well and especially if I hit over my goal, I'm definitely going to be grabbing tools for developing more 3D style cases that will still use the modular boards.

On the battery issue, as I mentioned before, there isn't enough space in the casing to allow for something the size of AA's, however, I do want to design a set of batteries that can be swapped quickly, so that you can have a pair charging while the others are in use in the board.

And yes, I do plan to offer MX browns, and as mentioned before, there will be an option to buy assembled as well ;)

Regarding my currently layout, you can see it here.  I actually have my number row permanently shifted although it doesn't show in the diagram so I just press 8 for * as an example, and shift + 8 to actually get number 8, or more frequently hold down my layer shift key and use the 8 on the numpad.

I don't love how I have my direction keys but just didn't have enough keys to come up with a better layout, if there were one more key below the WSX column I would have just put my direction on the main layer and never have to shift to get to them, but as is the best I could do was hold down the function key with one hand and then access the full set of function keys as I like with my other hand.

Overall though this has been a huge improvement when programming.  I know plenty of people will say use the old vim style hjkl (which I do) but I also use plenty of other programs that make frequent use of arrow keys plus home/end/pg up/pg down. 

I also wish I could find one more place for a hyper key (for me basically command + ctrl + alt + shift) which makes it really easy to have shortcuts that aren't used by other modifier keys.  I currently do this by overloading the caps lock, if I tap the caps lock it is esc, if I hold it and press another key it is hyper.  I actually have a few unused keys because it didn't end up being a case of not having enough keys, it came down to not having enough keys in the right places.  The thumb cluster which looked so great on the ergodox ended up far less useful than planned, the only two keys I can conveniently reach are the two large keys, so in effect I have only three keys I can reach with each thumb, the two large keys on the main cluster, and the layer shift key I use which is the bottom row closest to the thumb cluster on each hand.  Sure does work out well though, especially setup to be a sticky key so I don't have to actually chord when I am programming, if I want to type an underscore for example I just tap the key directly below V with my left hand, then what would be H with my right hand.  Really helpful when programming in Ruby which loves variables_named_in_snake_case.
I think you're missing a link or some content at the beginning of your post. As for extra buttons, I've been playing with the design but haven't been able to find somewhere comfortable under the bottom row of keys to add more. Hopefully, with the changes made to the thumb cluster, you'll find it a bit more useful. There will also be other thumb cluster layouts that will allow you to have more buttons at your disposal, and of course you can always add external pads quite easily as well.

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #635 on: Tue, 20 August 2013, 22:17:04 »
A quickish update for something I meant to post a couple days ago:


These are the mid & bottom plates, showing how the new swappable plates are styled. The one for the thumb cluster isn't finished, because I'm still tweaking the board layout on that one.


The top there are the first variations I plan to release for the thumb clusters. The bottoms are the first two 4x5 variants, one being a number pad and the other a standard 4x5 grid.

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #636 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 00:10:32 »
Forgot to post these as well:



This was the first revision to the 70% straight concept, implementing the new plates, integrating the LEDs and per CommunistWitchDr's suggestion, the last two keys from the original concept have been dropped to where they can be easily reached by either thumb, particularly the 1.5 at the bottom.

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #637 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 01:10:50 »
gorgeous stuff mate !!!
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Demonmaker

  • Posts: 17
  • Location: isle of man
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #638 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 02:42:09 »
That new photo booth working its magic, Thanks for the updates as it's always nice to see things moving along

Offline MOZ

  • KING OF THE NEWBIES
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 3981
  • Location: Jo'burg
  • Busy making stuff
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #639 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 03:21:14 »
Yummy pictures, but honestly great work, I'm still not too sure about the 70%.

Offline SpAmRaY

  • NOT a Moderator
  • * Certified Spammer
  • Posts: 14667
  • Location: ¯\(°_o)/¯
  • because reasons.......
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #640 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 03:33:02 »
Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?

Offline Thimplum

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1101
  • Master of all Ponies
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #641 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 08:32:20 »
Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?


That was part of the 'keystation'. So yes, a module in a way.
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline CommunistWitchDr

  • Posts: 479
  • Location: St. Louis, MO
  • >implying keyboards
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #642 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 09:03:06 »
Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?


That was part of the 'keystation'. So yes, a module in a way.

I think it was more "the keystation has a spot for the numpad" than "the numpad is part of the keystation". I'm pretty sure it can be used with or without the keystation. I am not sure if it can be used without the main board or if it connects through it though.

Offline wiredPANDA

  • Posts: 348
  • Location: Louisiana
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #643 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 10:16:43 »
That 70% is looking better the more I look at it.

Nice work on the plates.
| HHKB Pro 2 | Leopold FC660C
| Poker.PANDAclears | ErgoDox (62g Black)

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #644 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 12:48:47 »
gorgeous stuff mate !!!
That new photo booth working its magic, Thanks for the updates as it's always nice to see things moving along
That 70% is looking better the more I look at it.

Nice work on the plates.
Thank you :D And I find posting updates, even small ones, motivational, in part because of feedback and when you start to take pride in showing what you've worked on, it drives you to put even more time and effort into making it better.


Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?


That was part of the 'keystation'. So yes, a module in a way.

I think it was more "the keystation has a spot for the numpad" than "the numpad is part of the keystation". I'm pretty sure it can be used with or without the keystation. I am not sure if it can be used without the main board or if it connects through it though.
Yes, the number pad isn't exclusive to the keystation, or any other configuration. There are two ports on each of the split halves, one of which would be available on each side after they are connected. On the straight & split boards, you'll have 4 ports free as the keypads will be connected internally.

I've also been tossing around the idea of doing a simple pair of addon boards for the controller board to allow you to use it externally, so if all you wanted was a bunch of the 3x4 or 4x5 modules, that'll be entirely possible. The controller board is already designed to handle this, I would just have to design the addon board, which shouldn't take more than a half hour or so given it's simplicity.

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #645 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 14:26:26 »
I am. I am 150% sure about that 70% board. It makes me drool.

Offline JPG

  • Posts: 1124
  • Location: Canada (Beloeil, near Montreal)
  • Model F is my new passion!
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #646 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 14:29:35 »
People will sell their Korean custom to get this (or maybe it's already started!)

Joking, but damn it's so nice!

 :thumb:
IBM F122, IBM XT F X2, IBM AT F (all Soarer converted), Filco Camo TKL Browns

Offline vivalarevolución

  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Naptown, Indiana, USA
  • Keep it real b/c any other way is too stressful
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #647 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 15:11:26 »
Glad to see those caps I sold you being put to good use.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline Loligagger

  • Posts: 280
  • Location: ON, Canada
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #648 on: Wed, 21 August 2013, 20:52:57 »
If you're going for plates being separate from the case itself, any chance for stainless steel?

Offline Tarzan

  • formerly known as Greystoke
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 1304
  • Location: US: Virginia
Re: AcidFire's custom split keyboard - ErgoGP
« Reply #649 on: Thu, 22 August 2013, 07:07:58 »
If you're going for plates being separate from the case itself, any chance for stainless steel?

+1 for this.  As much as I like the look of the acrylic cases, the stainless steel plates from The_Beast are superb.  Maybe a kit build option, sourcing the plates from The_Beast?