AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]

[MOZ]

I would suggest a hinge  at the top, so that you can rotate the two halves about it at some angle to create an inverse v shape for ergonomics.

[AcidFire]

I would suggest a hinge  at the top, so that you can rotate the two halves about it at some angle to create an inverse v shape for ergonomics.

My concern with a hinge at the top is that it would need to be either very big/thick acrylic, or something else entirely and even then it's still very much a weakpoint. A hinge splitting it right down the middle might be possible and would allow it to fold up or tent with little effort.

[MOZ]

I would suggest a hinge  at the top, so that you can rotate the two halves about it at some angle to create an inverse v shape for ergonomics.

My concern with a hinge at the top is that it would need to be either very big/thick acrylic, or something else entirely and even then it's still very much a weakpoint. A hinge splitting it right down the middle might be possible and would allow it  to fold up or tent with little effort.

I understand your concern, but the hing in either position have different aaplications.

[wiredPANDA]

This is turning into the end-all be-all for custom keyboards, for me.  75%, 40%, updated ErgoDox layout, numpad...

</slow clap>

[do_Og@n]

This is turning into the end-all be-all for custom keyboards, for me.  75%, 40%, updated ErgoDox layout, numpad...

</slow clap>

I think what he means is...

[FiskFisk33]

[TheSoulhunter]

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).



Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

[TheSoulhunter]

Perhaps adding a "metal backing" with hinge would work...

[sordna]

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

That would be cool, like a Goldtouch or similar, so it can be tented!

[AcidFire]

Perhaps adding a "metal backing" with hinge would work...

(Attachment Link)

Problem is, the boards act like a lever on the hinge, and warping it is still an easy possibility.

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

That would be cool, like a Goldtouch or similar, so it can be tented!

Would love to be able to do that, but would have to be something down the line since it would have to be injection molded (expensive )

[FiskFisk33]

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.

[vatin]

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.

I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.

[AcidFire]

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.

I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.

Exactly this. With modular pads a number of options open up for different cases which can be developed quickly because the electronics don't need a redesign for different layouts or styles.

Speaking of which, I finally finished with the left thumb board design which will be my test bed for the new control ICs before I order the rest of the boards. To illustrate what changed (and why the design took so long), here's a comparison between the previous design & the new one.

While the new boards lose the ability to be reversible, they gain a much better control system with greater flexibility & less chance of something going wrong or failing. There are also libraries written for them already, reducing development & QA time.

[Thimplum]

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.

I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.

I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.

Exactly this. With modular pads a number of options open up for different cases which can be developed quickly because the electronics don't need a redesign for different layouts or styles.

Speaking of which, I finally finished with the left thumb board design which will be my test bed for the new control ICs before I order the rest of the boards. To illustrate what changed (and why the design took so long), here's a comparison between the previous design & the new one.

Show Image

While the new boards lose the ability to be reversible, they gain a much better control system with greater flexibility & less chance of something going wrong or failing. There are also libraries written for them already, reducing development & QA time.

Which side is the controller on?

[AcidFire]

On those layouts blue is back, red is front.

[Thimplum]

On those layouts blue is back, red is front.

I meant left or right half.

[AcidFire]

On those layouts blue is back, red is front.

I meant left or right half.

The controller is still a separate board, that can be placed in either the left or right half.

[Thimplum]

On those layouts blue is back, red is front.

I meant left or right half.

The controller is still a separate board, that can be placed in either the left or right half.

Can the half with the controller in it work without the other half?

[AcidFire]

Yes. The system is designed to auto detect what is connected to it. Anything that hasn't been connected to it before will have defaults loaded, which can then be changed in the software. Because of the way the addressing system works, if you have a half that has the main keypad go bad and can't be fixed, you can drop in a new one with the same address & the controller will act like it was never gone.

I have some ideas for the software & firmware that would load different profiles (which contain all your layers) depending on what is connected to it. So if you had the split setup, and removed the right half, the remaining would switch to it's profile that is loaded with the layers for your favorite games. This may not be possible with the ATMEGA32u4 I'm starting with, but when I make the jump to something ARM based that should be very doable.

[wesleyh]

Did the name change again?

[Thimplum]

Yes. The system is designed to auto detect what is connected to it. Anything that hasn't been connected to it before will have defaults loaded, which can then be changed in the software. Because of the way the addressing system works, if you have a half that has the main keypad go bad and can't be fixed, you can drop in a new one with the same address & the controller will act like it was never gone.

I have some ideas for the software & firmware that would load different profiles (which contain all your layers) depending on what is connected to it. So if you had the split setup, and removed the right half, the remaining would switch to it's profile that is loaded with the layers for your favorite games. This may not be possible with the ATMEGA32u4 I'm starting with, but when I make the jump to something ARM based that should be very doable.

YUS!

So I could just use the left half while gaming, Orbweaver style?

[AcidFire]

Did the name change again?

Shhh that was suppose to be sneaky I thought a bit more about it, and with some feedback from others did a bit more research into a name that would actually suit what was going on with the project. TBH I've been on so many projects that have had their name changed a dozen times before release that changing it on a bit of a whim doesn't seem all that unusual to me. I will however say that I am much happier with this name and don't plan on changing it again.

[Thimplum]

Did the name change again?

Shhh that was suppose to be sneaky I thought a bit more about it, and with some feedback from others did a bit more research into a name that would actually suit what was going on with the project. TBH I've been on so many projects that have had their name changed a dozen times before release that changing it on a bit of a whim doesn't seem all that unusual to me. I will however say that I am much happier with this name and don't plan on changing it again.

It's a cool name, if google doesn't sue you.


Can't wait for the beta.

[Demonmaker]

So I could just use the left half while gaming, Orbweaver style?

I'd want it like this too on many an occasion

[Thimplum]

So I could just use the left half while gaming, Orbweaver style?

I'd want it like this too on many an occasion

That would be sooooo awesome.

[AcidFire]

Yes, this will be entirely possible and is one of the reasons the controller is separate from the keypads.

[Thimplum]

YUSSS!

[wiredPANDA]

And here I was talking myself out of the split board, since I have two ErgoDoxes.  I WAS going to contain myself to the 75% and 40% boards, but now... Now, this.

[MOZ]

AcidFire, how about something like this:



BLue is one hand, red is the other, green is a bot joining the two hands.

[daerid]

It's a cool name, if google doesn't sue you.


Can't wait for the beta.

Hate to be a party pooper, but it looks like this might be on dangerous ground here. From Google's list of trademarks:

• Nexus™ family of marks for mobile devices and peripherals

[spspencer]

I don't think Google will notice unless/until the keyboard went mainstream. I wouldn't want to fight the big "G" over a product name, but the publicity might be good...

[AcidFire]

For now, I'm not worried. There are other devices out there with the Nexus name, it all depends on how you use it. The only thing I find concerning is the peripherals bit, so I think as long as I skip mentioning the Nexus series in general when talking about compatibility and instead go with something like "Android Devices w/ Bluetooth 4" I should be ok. It is something I will look into a bit more however.

[MOZ]

Got a chance to look at my idea, thoughts?

[agodinhost]

Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.

Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).

(Attachment Link)

Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?

Hmmmm, awesome idea ...
I'm working into one layout close to this one, however, I haven't thought about this splitting screw.

[AcidFire]

Giving it some more thought, with the 6mm acrylic involved in the hinge I think it might be less prone to breakage. I'll have to put one together and toss it around a bit in a bag to be sure.

[Thimplum]

I would worry about the hinge sliding around while I'm typing.

[AcidFire]

I'm planning to use a nice thumbscrew so that you can position it the way you want and then lock it in. When your done and need to pack it up, you just loosen it, straighten the board out, and lock it again.

[MOZ]

I'm planning to use a nice thumbscrew so that you can position it the way you want and then lock it in. When your done and need to pack it up, you just loosen it, straighten the board out, and lock it again.

That was the idea.

[sordna]

AcidFire, you gotta see this, adjustable columns:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45389.0

[Thimplum]

AcidFire, you gotta see this, adjustable columns:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45389.0

I think that he has.

From the thread:

I had the same thought when I was retooling the grid spacing on my design, but couldn't get past the idea of how to work the case. It's fantastic to see the concept in action, awesome work!

[kps]

Couple remarks/questions so far.

• I'm not a big fan of the ErgoDox style 1.5u keys, which I assume descend from Kinesis' 1.25u outer keys. Not a big fan to the extent that I cut up my Kinesis to ‘fix’ it. The wide keys have a high cost in terms of keycap layout flexibility for, as I see it, no real benefit.
  
• Forgive me if I missed it, but I don't quite follow how multiple modules connect together. I see I²C mentioned, and on some PCBs what appears to be a single TRRS footprint, ErgoDox style (originally my suggestion, yay for me), but not how multiple modules are connected. I assume they're not daisy-chained, since I see only one connector — are they run in a star to the controller? I²C is not supposed to be used that way… do you find it works anyway? Has it been tried with longer cables (e.g. around the back of a chair, for armrest mounts)?
  

[AcidFire]

Couple remarks/questions so far.

• I'm not a big fan of the ErgoDox style 1.5u keys, which I assume descend from Kinesis' 1.25u outer keys. Not a big fan to the extent that I cut up my Kinesis to ‘fix’ it. The wide keys have a high cost in terms of keycap layout flexibility for, as I see it, no real benefit.
  
• Forgive me if I missed it, but I don't quite follow how multiple modules connect together. I see I²C mentioned, and on some PCBs what appears to be a single TRRS footprint, ErgoDox style (originally my suggestion, yay for me), but not how multiple modules are connected. I assume they're not daisy-chained, since I see only one connector — are they run in a star to the controller? I²C is not supposed to be used that way… do you find it works anyway? Has it been tried with longer cables (e.g. around the back of a chair, for armrest mounts)?
  

1. This is something I've been pondering as well, from both size & cost benefits. I believe it decends from keyboard design in general, where modifier keys on the left/right side of the board are a different size to help distinguish them from standard keys. Whether this is actually necessary remains to be seen, but I do know right now that the space underneath them is where I'm running the traces for power+usb+i2c for where the controller is designed to sit. I do have some ideas in mind.

2. I haven't posted the newest layout designs aside from the completed thumb board, but the thumbboards currently have a single TRRS connection point, and the main keypads have a pair of them to allow connection from a couple of positions or for additional modules to connect to them. All the boards also have multiple internal i2c 4 pin connection ports. As for running the devices in a star and issues that would arise from that, I've never heard of that and we've never seen that sort of issue at the office, and we sell a number of i2c based devices. How they connect to each other will come down to how you have them configured or rather what you're using. I'm being a bit vague because I have some really cool stuff I'm working on that I don't want to spoil just yet

As for cable length, there are a number of factors that play into the length you can use i2c without issue, but something like what you suggested should be well within the realm of possibility.

[kps]

1. This is something I've been pondering as well, from both size & cost benefits. I believe it decends from keyboard design in general, where modifier keys on the left/right side of the board are a different size to help distinguish them from standard keys.

Typewriters traditionally had slightly larger shift keys,

but after that wider keys seemed to be mostly used to square up a layout, and there was a mix of keyboards that did and those that didn't.

Eventually the influence of the IBM PC took over, and everyone went square…

As for running the devices in a star and issues that would arise from that, I've never heard of that and we've never seen that sort of issue at the office, and we sell a number of i2c based devices.

Good to know. I've seen dire warnings about I²C busses and termination issues and such, but I'm a software guy, so your colleagues' experience is reassuring, especially since they probably have an electrically noisier environment.

I've gone for SPI for this purpose, and then, already being beyond the photo jack capacity, brought across the I/O expander interrupt pin as well, which could allow the controller to avoid polling and go to sleep, which (as I fantasize without actually measuring) might be good for battery life in a future wireless version.

[AcidFire]

1. This is something I've been pondering as well, from both size & cost benefits. I believe it decends from keyboard design in general, where modifier keys on the left/right side of the board are a different size to help distinguish them from standard keys.

Typewriters traditionally had slightly larger shift keys,
(Attachment Link)
but after that wider keys seemed to be mostly used to square up a layout, and there was a mix of keyboards that did and those that didn't.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Eventually the influence of the IBM PC took over, and everyone went square…

As for running the devices in a star and issues that would arise from that, I've never heard of that and we've never seen that sort of issue at the office, and we sell a number of i2c based devices.

Good to know. I've seen dire warnings about I²C busses and termination issues and such, but I'm a software guy, so your colleagues' experience is reassuring, especially since they probably have an electrically noisier environment.

I've gone for SPI for this purpose, and then, already being beyond the photo jack capacity, brought across the I/O expander interrupt pin as well, which could allow the controller to avoid polling and go to sleep, which (as I fantasize without actually measuring) might be good for battery life in a future wireless version.

I've been looking at that as well, but there are other ways around it. I'll be running tests to see what kind of draw there is both with and without the backlight, but I know that typically it's very low when the expanders are in use.

[Moosecraft]

How is progress with this?
Reaching GB status anytime soon?

[fisofo]

Show Image

AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?

[daerid]

^^^^ I would like to know as well.

[AcidFire]

Show Image

AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?

It's something we stock for some of our kits, but we don't normally sell them seperately. I'll talk to my boss later and see if I can get them to let me sell some.

How is progress with this?
Reaching GB status anytime soon? :)

Currently waiting on the new test boards to come in so I can be sure the electronics work the way they should. I ordered it friday, and it mentioned that it should be ready to be sent to me by the 10th. I went with OSHPark this time, who are based in the US so I should get it a lot faster this time. I've also got all the electronics on hand and ready to go for when it comes in. Once they've been tested and I can feel confident ordering boards, I'll notify the selected beta testing applicants that they can order their hardware. After that, the actual campaign to fund proper production will all come down to beta testing feedback.

On the note of the beta testing kits, I've updated a bit as to what I'll be including with them:

Electronics:

• 7x5 Node 01.1
• 7x5 Node 01.2
• Crux 00 CPU Module

Casing, Choice Of:

• Split Case, Includes 3x4 Node 01.1, 3x4 Node 01.2. Choice Of Size: S, M, L
• 70% Straight Case, Includes 2x6 Node 01.0
• 70% Ergo Case, Includes 2x6 Node 02.0

There is a strong possibility of including all three case designs in a single kit, it will all come down to costs.

Switches & Assembly
Some of you have mentioned that you've already got switches set aside for this, as well as caps so your kits will only be charged the cost of electronics + case. For those who can't assemble your own, I will be able do so as well as provide switches & caps (limited selection unfortunately.) Pricing TBD, but should be in line with what I mentioned before. ($110-120 full kit, less without switches & caps.)

[wiredPANDA]

That quoted price makes me happy.  And I can't wait to start seeing beta tester posts start showing up on here once they can start reviewing.

[hoggy]

I don't want to appear too greedy, but I'll happily pay for all three variants.  I'd be surprised if I'm alone in that regard.

Really impressed with the work you've done - very inventive coupled with attention to feedback.