Need a keyboard for work.

[N8N]

OK, I know that this topic has probably been done to death, but I still don't see any viable off the shelf options out there.  I am definitely a devotee of the One True Keyboard, AKA the venerable IBM Model M.  I have two of them sitting next to me as I type this; I used to have one of the cool 1391401s - the original with the detachable cord - and IMHO it feels just like a keyboard should.  That one got lost in a move and that made me a very Sad Panda.  I'll probably pick up another one of these days when I go on a bourbon-fueled eBay shopping spree as I could actually tell the difference between it and the "lesser" later boards, but that's not what this post is about.

I loathe most keyboards.  The crap that passes for a keyboard that is shipped with a new PC is embarrassing and I'd rather that they just didn't send it at all because then I'm presented with the conundrum of having to discard a brand new, unused piece of equipment if I can't find some sucker to pawn it off onto.  So obviously whatever I'm given to type on at work I don't use; it sits on the shelf until someone spills coffee on their keyboard and ask me if I have any spares.  For a while I was using a Model M at work, but apparently my machine-gun typing style combined with the unique sound of the buckling spring switches drove the admins to drink (more.)  So that's not an option.  Currently a coworker, in a genuine attempt to be helpful, found a Cherry brand tenkeyless at a job site NIBN and unused; he gave it to me thinking it would be an acceptable replacement for the Model M but it just isn't.  It's a M81 series and it feels like buttered ****e.  It's evidently a quality product, but I just can't type well on it - I need the lightness and tactility that I've grown used to with my IBM boards.

Question is, what to use?  I'm currently typing this post on a Compaq MX11800 that I picked up off the 'bay just to get a feel for the Cherry Browns.  I think that this keyboard is still way too loud, as I'm constantly bottoming out on it and not "floating" like I can with the Model M.  Action is just too light (at least for what I'm used to - which means there'd be a learning curve to type more quietly on this thing,) although other than that my only quibble with it is the hideous layout of the thing - which means I'd probably like a Filco or Das Silent, but my cow orkers still wouldn't, at least until I learned to float on it, which could take a while.  I've also got a Dell AT101W coming so I can try the Alps Blacks.  Through my obsessive compulsive web searching I've discovered that the old SGI Granite keyboards are essentially a AT101 with extra rubber dampers on the key switches.  Do those really make a difference?  does anyone make them so I could retrofit an AT101W?  or would I have to actually search out a used SGI board?  (that actually would be pretty cool, as I'm sure none of my coworkers ever actually used a SGI workstation before)

Am I missing something?  Topre probably isn't in the budget, nor am I sure that I'd really like a board that *required* me to bottom out each switch.

Oh, and BTW, what the hell is up with the grey switch for the space bar on the Compaq?  The extra force required to activate the space bar compared to the alphanumeric keys is driving me ape****.  can I just replace it with another Cherry Brown?

Has anyone tried the "landing pads" from elitekeyboards on a Cherry Brown board?  Do they significantly affect the feel, or do they only come into play after you pass the tactile point?

I think what I really would like is something that felt as close as possible to the Model Ms that I know and love, just without the clickiness.  I can deal with Cherry Browns but am just concerned that if I add the landing pads that it'll mess up the feel.  I also am used to the standard 101/104 key layout so something conforming to that standard as closely as possible would be ideal.

Thanks much for any feedback...

[strum4h]

My previous co-worker used a rosewill rk-9000 at work and I brought my GHSS with me one day. It was awesome when all you could hear was clicking.

OT: I use my filco with browns mostly for gaming but they really are just fantastic to type on. Also they are quiet and not very stressful on your fingers.

[sordna]

The landing pads only affect the feel on the last .5mm of the key travel, well after the actuation point. The gray ones are ok, they black ones are thicker and affect the feel too much. I tried everything, and for me proper o-rings are the best. See my sig for the exact part number to get.
Perhaps a keyboard with cherry blues (tactile/clicky) and o-rings might be a good solution, if you don't mind the click sound. At least bottoming out will be quiet.

[N8N]

I'll have to try that, thanks!  Only problem is whenever I order from McMaster I'm tempted to rummage through my drill bits, taps and dies, etc. and throw whatever is missing onto the order so I never get an inexpensive order

Seriously, I am def. going to try that on this Compaq... if that works then maybe a Das or Filco is the answer.  I guess nobody's ever decided for certain which of the two is better?  I don't think I would like a Leopold because I would miss the numpad.

I don't give a rodent's rosy red rectum about the sound.  however it apparently bothers others in the office who see my keyboard snobbery as an affectation and not simply my desire to do my job in the most efficient, comfortable manner possible...  (now I'm typing this on my laptop and that's just AWFUL!  gotta hook the M back up...)

[sordna]

You could simply go down to a store and buy a Razer Blackwidow with blue switches for around $90. Lots of computer stores have them in stock. It's worth going just to try these switches out.

[N8N]

I dunno... unless Best Buy (ptui) stocks 'em I don't have a really *good* B&M computer store around...  hence my searching online, buying cheap boards on the bay, etc...

[DaemonRaccoon]

The last time I went to Best Buy there was a choice between Logitech chicklets and MS ergo boards. I laughed and walked away.

[ch_123]

You mention that you don't like the browns because they bottom out easily and make too much noise. You've basically described the Black Alps too . Cream Alps, the switches used in SGI AT101 boards dont make as much racket, but they feel kinda mushy because you're bottoming out hard onto rubber dampners. Both switches rate pretty low on the scale of things.

Cherry Clears could be an option here, if you were able to find an appropriate keyboard - they're somewhat rare.

[N8N]

hmm... didn't even know there was a Cherry Clear...

http://www.alvio.com/xABK_PID713341_G80-3000LPCEU-0_cherry_lt-grey-usb-ps-2-combo-us-104-layout-mx.html&referrer=froogle

http://www.misterinterface.com/category/tags/cherry-clear

looks like this is on the table?

if it has a heavier feel with a more pronounced tactile bump than the browns that would be perfect but per the video I think it is still too loud for the orifice so I might have to do the o-ring mod...

I do have a SIIG board w/ what I believe are the black Alps (can't actually pull a key off with my fingers?) and it feels OK to me and I like the distinct tactile bump, but it's LOUD and the keys are a little wobbly...  Compaq w/ browns would be OK if it didn't make noise when bottoming, had a more pronounced tactile bump, and required a little more effort to actuate.

anyone actually have a board with the clears?  (geez, just when I thought I had a handle on this keyboard thing.)

[False_Dmitry_II]

Yes, and I'm using one right now.

It CAN be difficult to find them but it isn't currently. There was a different one. I'm considering getting one of these too, just because...

I'm sure there could be other auctions, but this seller still has some.

http://cgi.ebay.com/QTY-Cherry-MX-8000-POS-PS2-Keyboard-Credit-Card-Swiper-/320722040204?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aac85f58c

I type pretty hard, so I still bottom out while typing on them so they could probably stand the o-rings to make them silent since that is the goal.

Honestly, though it sounds like either these or ergo clears (clears with brown springs. While on that subject, yeah you could totally change the spacebar one out) will be your best bet. Possibly with o-rings either way. Or both ways, if you get two of these clears.

[The Solutor]

anyone actually have a board with the clears?

I started with the idea of going clears, but I found ergo clears a way better option, btw is easy to test what you like more when you have a clear board.

They are pretty common on cherry production, and they are available at the starting price of 40€ for the German layout and (a bit more for the us-international), in a zillion of German stores and ebay sellers .

German layout, if you need just the switches

US international (us+ euro symbol) if you need the whole keyboard

The ugly deck legend is also available in the clear variant

[keyb_gr]

I actually have TWO boards with clears - well, admittedly they're easier to come by on this side of the pond. If you're used to a Model M but need something that won't drive people crazy, they're not a bad compromise. Same force class, not as sharp tactility of course, not easily bottomed out. A bit like a scissor-switch board with some more travel tacked on.

The only thing you'll want to do is swapping out the stem and spring in the spacebar for something else (say, Scroll Lock). Piece o' cake with PCB-mounted switches as Cherry boards have them.

[N8N]

Thanks guys.  Ordered one of the POS boards to try out the clears.  In a week or so I ought to have a complete set of all the keyboard types I think I "might" like...  once this is over I'll likely have a massive cheap vintage keyboard sell off.  If I really like the clears I might just use the POS board @ work w/ o-rings, it's not like I really care what my cow orkers think of my sense of style (they already know it's questionable.)

[Tony]

I use a Filco brown at work at leave my old Compaq MX 11800 at home.

If you find that the Compaq one too loud, then the Filco brown is even louder. Maybe you should consider a scissor switch keyboard, I think it is quieter.

[theferenc]

You could get a set of dampened ALPS sliders from an Apple Extended Keyboard II. You can swap them in to the Dell quite easily, which would give you a readily available, easily useable dampened ALPS keyboard (the SGIs have issues sometimes with converters).

I actually rather like the Dell that way, personally. You could also look in to the Matias Tactile Pro: it's not as loud as the IBM and is lower pitched, but still has a satisfying click sound. The keys do have a bit of wobble to them, but that's just the nature of ALPS switches.

Personally, I'm an IBM person myself, but ALPS and Topres are not far behind in terms of feel preference. Cherry MX switches are sitting right at the bottom, for me. Just never liked them, for many different reasons.

[N8N]

I'm guessing, from perusing the interwebs, that the Apple KB was only available in ADB and there's no cheap currently available ADB to PS/2 or USB adapters available?  (that is, no easy way to just hook it up to a PC running Windows or Linux and see if I like it?)

[mmmty]

Good deal on Griffin iMate ADB adapter on ebay right now. $30 shipped - http://cgi.ebay.com/Griffin-iMate-ADB-USB-adapter-/220807135637?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3369218195#ht_500wt_1413
I bought one and it works fine.

You can use S-Video cable if you don't have ADB cable. Thanks, theferenc!!

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19144-25-Griffin-iMate-ADB-to-USB-adapter-on-Ebay

[N8N]

did not know that.  still, that'd be around $70 for a keyboard (figuring a board will be $30-40 shipped)... since i seem to be buying these in bulk, I'm trying to keep the purchase prices low so that when I put 'em all back up for sale I don't lose my shirt... which reminds me, I need to get off my butt and replace the cord on the Model M... need to go get my tools out of storage.  Thanks for the tip on ADB = S-video, that's excellent to know (because I do have a pretty well stocked cable junk box, but no Apple stuff)

[theferenc]

I've got an AEKII you could have for $10+shipping, if you want to give it a try. It's dirty, but it's on my list of keyboards to clean up. I paid $10 for it at a local store though, so if you're interested in it, I'm happy to just pass it along, rather than cleaning it up. That way it's only about $50, shipped, if you purchased the $30 adapter.

Let me know.

Edit: Oh, and I have an actual ADB cable for it you can have with it, as well. 2, actually, one coiled, one straight.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Just don't try to use an adb cable as an svid cable.

[N8N]

Well thanks to theferenc it looks like I am going to have another data point to try...  so far I've got

(several) IBM Model M - buckling springs - these are perfect in every way except they are too LOUD for work.
SIIG mechanical keyboard - simplified Alps white? - this one isn't as nice as the M and is even louder, if that is possible (acceptable feel tho)
Compaq 11802 - Cherry Brown - feels OK, a little light, loud b/c I keep bottoming out on it.

On the way:

Dell AT101W - Alps Black (I hope?)
Dell QuietKey - I remember these being not too awful as far as rubber domes go.  Maybe I can live with this one.
Apple Extended Keyboard II - Alps???
Cherry POS 'board w/ clears

hopefully I will like at least one of them, and find it quiet enough, with or without o-rings, enough to use at work...!

[Chobopants]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned cherry blacks in here. They're easily my quietest cherry board.

[N8N]

aren't blacks linear though?  I don't know that I would like that - and I would *definitely* be bottoming those out all the time.

[Chobopants]

aren't blacks linear though?  I don't know that I would like that - and I would *definitely* be bottoming those out all the time.

They are linear but have a LOT more resistance than browns. If you're bottoming out the browns they probably feel effectively linear to you anyway.

[theferenc]

The AEK2 is ALPS, yes. Basically the same switch as in the Dell, but dampened, so quiter, with a different feel. I really like them, honestly. The only ALPS switches I like better are the ones in the Tactile Pro.

[N8N]

I thought that the Tactile Pro used the same switches as the AEK2?  I'm so confused now

The other board that I would still like to try before I settle on a switch type is a SGI Granite...  haven't found one of those for a "don't care" price yet.

I'm switching back and forth between the Model M and the Compaq now...  I'd forgotten how loud the M was because I haven't had a proper desktop set up at home for something like six months now.  While the Compaq is loud, it's still nowhere near as loud as the M.  Maybe it'd be OK without the O-rings but I kinds doubt it... some of my coworkers are excessively whiny.

Well, anyway, I guess this thread's kinda dead for now until the next round of shipments shows up and/or I actually find a SGI board to try...

[theferenc]

The Tactile Pro uses simplified Alps, rather than complicated as in the AEK2. The AEK2 and the SGI use the same switches though, as far as I know.

[False_Dmitry_II]

The SGI is whites with dampeners. In other words, what you'd get if you put click leaves from a focus into an AEKII. I don't think that even has an official name because of it.

[keyb_gr]

Bottomed-out MX blacks feel even heavier to me than BS.

And black Alps are bleeargh (my opinion). I guess those in my AT102DW could use a greasing job, but they feel like typing on the metal plate. Poor ol' tendons. Quite noisy, too.

[domin8r]

Have a Dell AT102W at home and I kinda like the switch.. but not as much as my Model M or Laser (feel like cherry blue). And to be honoust, the Dell seems to feel best when you're typing at full speed and then it is pretty noisy actually

[N8N]

another board showed up today... NOS Dell QuietKey.  (I think I paid something like $15 shipped for it.)  It's a museum piece, I can't type on it.  As I feared, it is better than most rubber domes, but I still hate it - it's got a bit of snap to it which is nice, and it's lighter than the Cherry G81, but the activation point is so low that it's really not much of an improvement.  So my old work keyboard years ago that I actually liked must have been an AT101(W) or AT102(W).

Took the Compaq board (browns) to work today - did a lot of paperwork yesterday and my hands were hurting.  Nobody complained today so maybe I was anticipating that its noise would carry farther than it actually does.  My hands feel happier, but I can't use this particular board long term because I tend to use the Delete, Home, PageUp, PageDown keys quite a bit and the non-standard locations are slowing me down.

Still waiting on a couple more to show up, guess it's going to be between Alps , browns ,and clears as to what I end up using.  So far I've only tried the browns though... come on Mr. UPS man!  (it'd be nice if I ended up liking the browns, 'cause a Filco is way cheaper than a Deck...  'course if I like the Alps I could just use the AT101W assuming it's not too loud.  or swap the sliders from the AEK2.)

[theferenc]

The slider swap is actually pretty easy to do, it just takes patience and attention to detail. I tend to end up having to do it twice, as I realize that the sliders are in backwards...but it's still pretty nice. I prefer the AT101 to the AT101W, but I like the space between my windows key and alt (caps lock is control, control keys become windows).

[N8N]

Well, two more keyboards showed up today...  the POS board with the Cherry clear switches and the AEK2 (thanks theferenc)

This is what I was afraid would happen...  so far these are the two that I like the best; and I'm going to give a slight edge to the clears.  I guess I will take the POS board to work for a couple days and see if my opinion changes; but so far I think it's The One.  (keep in mind that I am used to my Model Ms so I like a slightly heavier feel and distinct tactility.  I can actually float pretty well on the clears without any adjustment period.)

Of course, the only new, standard-layout board of which I'm aware that has clears are the Deck Legend "tactile" and the Cherry G80-3000LPCEU.  Neither one of which is particularly inexpensive.  I suppose I could swap some of the keycaps onto the POS board from my MX11800 (to get rid of the clear tops on the arrow keys, f-keys, etc.) and use it like that for a while...

Any opinions on the Cherry board w/ clears vs. the Deck?  I know the Deck is backlit, but I really could care less about that...  I'm assuming that being a "gaming keyboard" it is probably 6KRO while the Cherry is likely 2KRO.  Any other major differences in favor of spending the big bucks for the Deck?

I am still waiting for a Dell AT101W to show up, but based on the feel of the clears vs. the AEK2 I think I will likely still prefer the clears.  We'll see though.

[theferenc]

The Deck is very very well built, but with an odd design of the keycaps. They often have light bleed around the seams on the top, which is kind of annoying for a lot of folks.

If you aren't going to use the backlight though, you can just swap in other key caps if you don't like the provided caps.

I'm glad you like the AEKII, though. I really like the feel of it, but it's annoying to make work on a modern system, as the adapters tend to be expensive. But you can always swap the sliders in to the Dell, as I mentioned before. The Dell, for whatever reason, often feels grittier than the Apple keyboard, even if they are the same age, and saw similar use. I assume that's due to the damping.

[False_Dmitry_II]

If the cherry board with clears is the one that I told you about, it has NKRO. All the ones with clear tops are like that so you can add custom labels and icons, and are all fully programmable. It even keeps whatever macros or shortcuts or whatever you assign them on the board itself, rather than in software on the computer. So as far as pure ability goes, it eats most boards alive. It just happens to be an excellent deal at the moment.

[N8N]

the POS board is NKRO?  No wai!  The board that I'm typing this on right now is a G80-8200LPBUS-2 and I don't remember if it was you or not but someone on GH tipped me off to it.  It's a POS board with some extra F-keys and a credit card swiper.  Bought one of the ones on fleaBay and it jsut arrived today and I think my fingers are in love; it feels right to me and yet it is even way quieter than the browns because I'm floating much better so it's actually quite quiet even without O-rings (although those showed up today as well; but I don't think I need them on this one and may not bother trying them on the browns because those just feel too light.)  The one thing that I may try is the "tacto clears" since I have a board with browns right here and neither that one nor this one is particularly valuable.  But even so I think that I might remain a better typist with the stiffer springs of the stock clears because that's just what I'm used to.

maybe I should give this one a good scrubbing and just keep on rollin' then?  The credit card swiper does look a little odd though  I think I would swap some of the keycaps; e.g. the numpad doesn't have the arrows on it and that bothers me a little.  Also if I were to have custom labels on the F-keys it would not be for POS type stuff but for the AutoCAD functions (actually that's not a bad idea.  Maybe I can whip some up?)  Finally I am not nuts about the enter and pipe keys but that is a minor quibble, but my dream keyboard would use the bone stock standard IBM 101 key layout (windows and menu keys optional) because that's what I'm used to.

edit: dang, you might be right.  just opened an OpenOffice document and started holding down keys and tried about 10 different random combinations of holding keys down, each time the first six registered.  (using a PS/2->USB adapter, so I didn't expect any better.)  Not a real rigorous test, but promising.  This ain't a bad board, overall.  Still don't like the enter key but still.  For $33 shipped it makes a hell of a backup board and the credit card swiper might come in handy for my future life of crime  Might even make a good gaming board, I don't know, don't really game.

[theferenc]

There was some review around here somewhere that had the exact dimensions and a template you could use to print the labels. I can't find it offhand. Anyone know what I'm talking about? They labeled some of the keys with the firefox logo, the pidgin logo, etc.

Edit: Found it!

[False_Dmitry_II]

Yeah, it does bug me with the iso enter, but I'm willing to put up with it when I'm using it because of how much cheaper it is. I checked, and yeah, it was me.

Like I said, it's programmable. Check out this review:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10034

The card swiper does work, it's nice to have so you don't have to type that number in when buying things of the internet.

Edit:... Stop that.

[theferenc]

Hahaha, sorry Dmitry.

[theferenc]

So, I was looking at it, and with it being PCB mounted, it might just be possible that we could move switches, and wire jumpers back to where they came from. Buy an ANSI enter key that is MX compatible with the correct stabilizer system, a \| key of the appropriate size, and away you go. I may have to give this a try, now that I'm thinking about it.

[N8N]

well thanks!  Now I'm going to have to track down that software, I am not a *huge* fan of media keys but I'm starting to get into the idea of playing with this thing.  I think I may have found my new favorite keyboard; I'm going to have to do a back to back with a Model M to see which one wins the showdown; and there just might be a Deck in my future just to get the standard layout, but you've convinced me that I might as well give this one a bath first.  good thing it's Friday - otherwise I'd be taking this thing to work tomorrow to make my fingers happy.  Let's see if I can get all the keycaps off without busting anything - no, I don't have a key puller.  You can pull the keys off a Model M with just your fingers

I might also have to whip up some AutoCAD templates for the clear top keys...  since I know CAD and have a color printer available to me at work, this shouldn't be rocket surgery

Did I mention that I'm really, really diggin' the clears?  My roommate thinks I'm nuts - first because when his keyboard died I handed him a Model M to tide him over until he got a new one (he thought it was a clackety old tank - some people have no taste) and secondly because since I got on my mission to find an acceptable keyboard for work I now have a stack of "pre-enjoyed" keyboards taking up space on my desk...  I'll give it a few months before I do the sell off though.  He's still happy with is Microsoft rubber dome thing, and in his defense, I tried it and it feels pretty good for a RD board, but I just can't get used to a board that requires me to bottom out the keys to register them.

I do have the start of a good "try before you buy" typist's (as opposed to gamer's - I knew without trying that I didn't want any linear switches) set of keyboards.  Maybe there might be some interest in keeping the collection together as a larger, more expensive to ship version of the switch try numpad?

Please excuse the long winded reply...  I'm actually enjoying typing this all out!  (and I'm not making my usual clackety racket either.)  I'm actually quite glad that there's people like those on this forum that are nuts for keyboards because I would have absolutely never have found this board through normal retail channels, but it feels so much better than anything that I can remember typing on save for of course the obvious one.

[N8N]

So, I was looking at it, and with it being PCB mounted, it might just be possible that we could move switches, and wire jumpers back to where they came from. Buy an ANSI enter key that is MX compatible with the correct stabilizer system, a \| key of the appropriate size, and away you go. I may have to give this a try, now that I'm thinking about it.

that's a great idea.  I don't have the Compaq board in front of me to look at (left it at the office,) but I think I already saw someone mention that its keycaps were compatible...  I see a soldering iron in my future...  only downside that I see looking at pics online is that the shift keys on the Compaq look shorter, and all the non-alphanumerics on the Cherry board are grey, so I'd have an odd looking white enter key.  RIT dye it and try to match the other Cherry keys?

Alternately, I have the Cherry G81 (also at the office) with a full set of *black* keys...  are the RD Cherry keycaps MX compatible?  I haven't pulled one off to look.

[theferenc]

They are compatible, and they are compatible, respectively.

Personally, I would prefer non-matching keys to the ISO enter, but that's just me, which is why I started thinking about this anyway. I had an 8113 with browns at one point, which is when I discovered I didn't like them (too light, similar to your opinion), and played with the credit card reader a few times. One cool think you can do with it, if you have access to a card writer as well, as store you login information on a random mag strip card, with a tab between user name and password. It does actually switch fields, as least on the version of redhat we have in the office. I didn't try to put a carriage return at the end, but if you could do that, you could have a swipe to login system.

I wish I could find one of these (cheaply) that had both the magstrip reader and a smart card reader. With clears, since those are the only Cherry switches worth using (to me!).

[False_Dmitry_II]

They aren't rubber dome, but yeah they should be. Unless it really is a rubber dome, and not just the lesser thing g81s normally come with.

Keep me updated if either of you are successful in turning it ansi. This is the one time I would care about doing so.

Speaking of, what is the condition of the clear board you got N8N? I'm more interested in permanent stuff like shiny keys instead of dirt, because I always give stuff a thorough cleaning when I get it.

Sounds like a good idea for that password thing, you could have a super long something too. I like the clears well enough, but when gaming they are too heavy because you have to hold the spring down too much.

[N8N]

I'll have to clean it up before I can give you an idea of condition - it is kinda filthtastic.  Seriously.  But it seems to work well, and honestly, keycap condition is irrelevant to me at this point because I was really just looking to try out some switches that I had no way of obtaining other than buying keyboards.  They still have a detectable pebbly feel, if that helps any.  But I don't know if they will show visible wear after I clean them up or not.  (after I use it for a few months it will anyway...  I tend to use the sides of my pinkies a little bit, and my fingernails make women jealous - they're harder than your average keycap and I usually cut 'em at least once a week.)

I may disappear for a while and create some templates in AutoCAD.  Because that's the kind of thing that I think is cool to do.  (for the products that I deal with at work, I did sort of the same thing, although I did those in Excel because our techs don't all have AutoCAD loaded on their laptops - but in AutoCAD I can get the sizes right the first time w/o test printing and refining.)

I know, I really need to get out more.

[N8N]

update: enter key is a little shiny, rest are actually not bad at all.  Still obviously used/worn though.  Doesn't bother me a bit.  Don't know if it bothers you.  I'll try to get some pics after I get it back together - still have to run case through dishwasher and don't want to power it up until everything is dry (soaked key caps to get the board chow off of them and also q-tipped around the switches w/ some windex... it was naaaaasty.)

In other news, if anyone's harvesting clears off these and has some of the clear top keys they don't know what to do with, I could use a handful of the clear bits - my roommate's cat, affectionately known as Tweedledumba$$, thought that they made spiffy cat toys and I managed to retrieve all but three of them :/  I'll hold off on posting a WTB until I verify that I didn't hork this up by cleaning it though :/

I am in fact thinking of making labels for the F-keys for the AutoCAD functions...  that would turn a weird feature into something eminently useful.

[False_Dmitry_II]

There are quite a few extra keys on it.

[N8N]

right, but the f-key shortcuts already exist.

F1 - Help
F2 - Text Window
F3 - OSNAP
F4 - Tablet
F5 - Isoplane
F6 - Coordinates
F7 - GRID
F8 - ORTHO
F9 - SNAP
F10 - POLAR

(stolen from Autodesk's web site)

So simply making new labels for the F-keys would help quite a bit.  e.g. I use F3, F8, and F9 a lot but don't remember all the others.  And I'm old school, I hate using the buttons on the screen and Autodesk changes them every other rev anyway, I still use the keyboard a lot because I learned on R12 (I think?  may have been earlier.)  Probably back in the day they had a template that you could lay over the keyboard but I don't recall seeing one.

Anyone know how I can test the card reader w/o installing the software?  I have the bare board back together and everything works except for that; just waiting for the case to finish running through the dishwasher.  (couldn't do it last night, had a full load of dishes that needed to be run first.)

[theferenc]

I think you need to install Cherry Tools to make it work in windows. In linux, I believe it just works.

[theferenc]

Just to toss this out there, you could also go for some arrow keys or navigation keys, and then use the clear caps from those to replace the missing ones.

[N8N]

@ False_Dmitry_II - I got it all back together but my phone's camera can't seem to take a pic that really shows the condition of the keys.  They are somewhat shiny and worn, but it's not bad, and pretty even, and not even really noticeable from most angles.  What I notice most, now that it's back together, is the wear on the clear keycaps - some of those were obviously used more than others and so some of them feel like new while some feel distinctly smoother.  I didn't notice this until I had everything reassembled, so it's kind of odd as I just snapped them on in random locations since they're all interchangeable save for the long "enter" key.

@theferenc - once I got it all back together I hooked it up to my laptop and tried swiping a few cards that I had in my pocket with an OpenOffice Writer window open - I don't think it's working correctly because it seems to output a slightly different string each time.  Maybe if I get bored I'll install Cherry Tools on my Windows partition and play with it, but really, this was supposed to be just an exercise in trying out the Cherry clear switches and I'm pronouncing it a resounding success.  I like this board so much that I went ahead and cleaned it up anyway even though I'm still waiting for one more board before declaring a winner in the "which switch do I like best" contest.

I did try the AEK2 and it's nice, but I like the lower tactile bump of the Cherry switches, and it feels a little smoother too although that might be just differences in the wear of the two boards, neither is new...  Also this appears to have the same grey spacebar switch as the Compaq keyboard with browns, and it is a much better match to the clears, although I still wish that it had a slightly lighter feel.  I think that a clear in the Compaq for the spacebar would be a huge improvement now that I've tried them.

[N8N]

yes, I thought about that - if the keys from the Compaq will work, I could swap in the uncapped Ins/Home/PgUp/Del/End/PgDn keys.  Haven't been motivated to drive/ride over to the office and retrieve it though... I'm actually dechowifying the AEK2 right now since I'm in the groove  (don't be offended - it's waaaaay cleaner than the Cherry was that I was complaining about!)

[theferenc]

Hey, I told you it was dirty, and I hadn't had a chance to clean it yet. But that did let you get a better deal on it. I'm not offended at all. If anything, I felt bad sending it that way, but I really need to clean out my apartment.

The Compaq keys should work, yes. I'm pretty sure they are the same profile, and they will definitely fit on the keyboard.

[N8N]

your "dirty" is apparently way cleaner than some people's ideas of "ready to send" - AT101 just showed up and it's not much better than the Cherry was, and the keys are worn to heck to boot.  But again, you get what you pay for...

I suppose it's a Bad Idea just to throw the whole thing in the dishwasher upside down like you'd do with a rubber dome board?

[theferenc]

Do NOT do that! So, the way I would do it is take a jeweler's screw driver, and leverage it up under the keys onto the switch housing, then lift slightly on the handle. The keys will pop right off.

ALPS keyboards are kinda frustrating to clean, because no matter where, there are electronics sticking up in the way, and you don't want to get water down into the switches. The way I've cleaned that particular board in the past (as well as other ALPS boards) is to use rubbing alcohol and cotton swabs, after hitting it with the soft brush attachment on the vacuum to pull up the loose crap. Just use the swabs to clean up the stuck on dirt. I know it's a pain, but it really is the best way I've found to clean it up without damaging it.

To clean the key caps, I use denture tabs. Just pull the keys, toss them in hot water with a few tabs. If you want to clean the switches, you can toss the internals into the same bath, or use a different bowl. It's kind of a lot of small parts though, but it's a fun exercise, I think. That one didn't feel like it had dirty switches, in that most of them still felt smooth. I think the rubber dampers help keep the internals clean, for whatever reason. Or at least push the dirt out of the way of travel.

Oh, and just so you know. The F row of keys has the switches mounted 90 degrees relative to the main block. The stem is vertical on that row, while it is horizontal everywhere else. So come in from the side on that row, from the top or bottom on the rest of the keys.

Good luck!

Edit: Oh, and don't pull straight up on the keys with a key puller. For whatever reason, ALPS keys are most strongly attached against that particular move. You will almost definitely break a few key stems that way, and then you will have to replace the sliders on the switches, as well as the keys. I definitely have sliders, and I may have keys kicking around somewhere as well, in case that does happen to you. I should have tossed a few in the box, now that I think about it.

[False_Dmitry_II]

For me, the clears board I got had the card swipers work fine. Though one seemed to output all of the stuff on the card, the other seemed to only output the card's number. Must be able to store what it should output on the keyboard as well.

I do keys in the dishwasher too, no residue like denture tabs. Other than that I now use a magic eraser. Much faster than using rubbing alcohol.

That rotated switches thing only applies to the AEKII. Dell's are all the same orientation.

[theferenc]

Oh, you're right, of course. I misread his post, thought he was talking about the AEKII.

Also, I've never noticed a residue from denture tabs. I thoroughly rinse them afterwards, as the instructions on the box say to, which removes all the residual cleaner from them. Do you rinse them, and still get that residue?

My dishwasher gets too hot for me to feel comfortable putting my keys in it, especially when combined with the harsh chemicals that are in dishwasher detergent. Then again, my hot water is 66C according to my potentiometer, and the dishwasher heats it further, based on time rather than temperature (I tested this by exhausting my hot water tank and then running the dishwasher -- heating time was the same).

A magic eraser is a micro abrasion pad. Perfectly fine to use, but it can leave marks, and bits of itself, behind on the keyboard tray. As long as you're aware of that and careful though, it's no big deal. I still prefer the alcohol, personally. But to each their own.

[N8N]

just so you guys don't think that I'm destroying anything, I have run RD boards through the dishwasher before, but for the current round of cleaning I am only running the *cases* through, not the actual boards with the mechanical switches

I have to run to the store this AM to pick up groceries so I may try the denture cleaner thing.  I did the keys for the Cherry in a container with hot water and dish detergent, it got "most" of the mung off but isn't sparkling.  But since the plans for this board are to be a switch tester/possible office beater I'm not about to pull it apart again - it's just going to get dirty again anyway and if I put any more effort into it then I'll actually care what happens to it.

I need to find a monitor (long story) so that I can hook up my desktop and do a CAD template for the Cherry keycaps like I was talking about...  Font looks fairly close to Helvetica, is that what it is?

[False_Dmitry_II]

I have never bothered with denture stuff. Seemed like (especially having been told that) far too many steps. When all I have to do is unceremoniously dump the keys into the holder stick it in and wait for them to dry after.

The first couple of times I used rubbing alcohol on entire boards, but it was alot slower and took a bunch more stuff and effort than using the magic eraser.

[theferenc]

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to clean the keys by hand. I just toss them in a bowl, fill it with hot water, throw in a few tabs from the denture cleaner, and walk away for a few hours. Come back, dump out the water, and run cold water into the bowl for about 5 minutes at high pressure, to flush everything out. Then it's just waiting for them to dry.

So about the same amount of effort, it just takes longer. I'm also more comfortable with it, personally.

[hoggy]

N8N,  you could reduce the noise the Model M makes with dental floss.  You need the stuff for people with large gaps in their teeth or dentures.  
Pop off a key, and insert the thick end into the spring. Cut it off flush with the top of the spring. The more floss, the quieter it will be.  Pop the cap back on.  Just repeat it about a hundred times.  It won't make it cherry brown quiet, but it will make a difference.

Another trick would be to buy noisier keyboards as replacements for work.  Kensington (& belkin) make some outrageously loud rubber dome boards that can be heard clearly from 20 feet away. As soon as a few people in the office have those, you won't be the only bad guy.

[N8N]

Hah.  Well, the noise is not really an integral part of what makes me like the Model M, it's the tactility.  So I think that I'm going to use the board w/ the clears for a while and see how I like that; if anything the travel is less so I might actually find myself typing faster.

Now if anyone claims that the noise that I make while typing on a board with clears bothers them, they might find an old Cherry POS keyboard inserted in a very uncomfortable place...

[theferenc]

I've done the floss mod on an M, and it doesn't really damage the tactility, it just deadens the sound. I wasn't a huge fan of the new sound, personally, so I removed the floss, but it did work amazingly well.

[greyhounds]

I was on the same search, and though not concluded (I still have to try blacks and clears), I must say I'm somewhat pleased with the NMB RT-6856TW RD boards. The basic specs are:

Keyswitch Travel: 0.140±0.020 inch (3.56± 0.5 mm)
Travel to Make: 0.090±0.020 inch (2.29± 0.5 mm)
Operating Force: Momentary Action - 2.0 oz. nominal (55 grams)
Feel: Tactile.
Life: Meets or exceeds 20 million cycles.


My measurements - distance from top of travel to important reference points:
   0.050" (1.3 mm) to tactile bump, 55g
   0.098" (2.5 mm) to activate, 40g
   0.130" (3.3 mm) to bottom pad, 50g
   0.145" (3.7 mm) to end of travel, ~100g

Hard to believe, but it's a RD board that makes before it bottoms out, with a soft landing due to the RD design. It a damn nice RD, although the keys are a bit wobbly (but not as bad a ALPS). The wobble gives them a little clack sound when you release them, but not too loud. I use one at work and it's quieter then the Das brown, Razer BWU blue, or IBM-M.

The left shift key measured 55g as well, even when hit off center. Way better than the 65g I was getting with the Das or the 80g I was getting with the Razer BWU.

The space bar is stiffer due to an extra spring under it, which I believe you can remove. It does have the typical NMB nasty sharp edge to the space bar though.

Overall I can type faster on this than anything else I own, with very little bottoming and then very lightly and cushioned due to the dome.

You can get a NIB one right now here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NMB-Cyrix-OEM-PS2-Keyboard-/220701468954?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3362d5291a

Just something else to consider, although not mechanical.

[theferenc]

NMB makes good keyboards. They also make (well, made) the space invader switch, if I remember correctly. greyhounds, you may want to see if you can get your hands on a Fujitsu Peerless. You can sometimes find them for a few bucks on ebay. Clicky rubber dome. Odd feeling, but surprisingly nice.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Yes. While space invaders and cherry blues are quite close in terms of feel, I think I actually prefer space invaders.

I'd like to try their RD boards, but I'm not going to spend an AEKII's worth of money on one. If it was $15 total I'd take it.

But the quiettouch dell that he got is also supposed to be good. I don't know how those two RD boards are in relation to each other.

[N8N]

I used the Dell QT for maybe 5 minutes and decided that it was inferior to everything else on my desk.  (I just posted it for sale in fact.  I finished cleaning up all the boards I need to get rid of about an hour ago.)  My main complaint is not the feel however - it actually feels quite good.  The problem is that it still makes right at the bottom of the key travel and for someone used to a Model M that's a deal killer.  If the NMB will make before bottoming out, and feels like a Dell QK, it might actually be something that I'd like.

I haven't tried any linear boards, nor have I tried a Topre switch board (nor am I likely to, for the price at which they're selling - not unless a local store starts carrying them or someone I know buys one and lets me try it, neither of which seem likely) but I think I've given myself a good sampling of the "tactile" boards that are available, and I'm pretty much sold on clears.  In fact I might actually enjoy typing at work more now!  (OK, let's not go crazy here.)

I'm pretty sure that the final resolution for me is that I'm going to keep the Cherry POS board to use as my work keyboard, and I like it so much that I might just buy myself another one for home use - I'll have to switch off between that and my Model M to decide which one that I really like better; and the clears are definitely more cohabitant friendly.

[peapody]

I am in the same boat looking for a keyboard that I can use for work..now resorting to just bringing in my HHKB daily to use for fun while I take care of emails.

[greyhounds]

N8N, it strikes me that you may still have a mech keyboard yet to try (as do I).

If I've followed the thread all the way I don't think you've tried the NMB Hi-Tek "Space Invaders" switch yet, correct? I'd love to hear your impression on it if you have since you seem to tried everything else.