This kinda like floss mod for BS.
Yeah this is sorta what I meant in the other thread. However it is better to use a sheet of rubber and punch holes out of that for consistency. I never could find the picture of the mod but this is the right idea.
I think I might have found it!
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/best_article/3354636
Looks like the flat parts actually bottom out first, leaving 0.8mm gap under the pin. Interesting.
You know what I think would be awesome here?
Rubber ball bearings. If you could get little rubber beads of the same diameter as the ID of the spring. Drop them in and bang!
You know what I think would be awesome here?Genius.
Rubber ball bearings. If you could get little rubber beads of the same diameter as the ID of the spring. Drop them in and bang!
Anyone have a spring they can measure?The dimensions of that hole are around here somewhere, that is what you need not the dimensions of the spring. Lemme check the Cherry datasheets.
http://cicball.thomasnet.com/category/rubber-balls-2
Anyone have a spring they can measure?
http://cicball.thomasnet.com/category/rubber-balls-2
I wonder if it would be possible to get 4 per landing pad using a leather hole punch.It really depends on how much you want to reduce the key travel.
EK landing pad:Show Image(http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/sl120_cf_macro_th0x0.jpg)
Here is my leather hole punch so people know what I am talking about:
(Attachment Link)
I think the balls that were linked previously may work better because they are spherical, so it will probably have a depression pressure that increases slightly the farther you press it. It should give it a nice bounce back...
I have some silicone pads (with very small air pockets, kinda like the ek landing pads) that could work pretty well as well if I punch out sections of it. What other materials do you think could work if you used a leather hole punch?
I am not sure I want to desolder my filco to try it. haha
Anyone have a spring they can measure?The dimensions of that hole are around here somewhere, that is what you need not the dimensions of the spring. Lemme check the Cherry datasheets.
http://cicball.thomasnet.com/category/rubber-balls-2
EDIT:
You need the dimensions of the thing outlined in redShow Image(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q603/magicmeatballs/Lube%20Guide/27c90ffd.jpg)
If I had a caliper I would measure it but I do not.
Springs sit inside the post. I just got done with a big mod project on my Filco. I'm 100% certain of this... LOL. 100%. It was the most boring two nights of my life.
Totally worth it, but absolutely boring. I had to:
- desolder all of the browns from my Leo
- desolder all of the reds from my Filco.
- lube all of the browns (this is so super boring there's no words for it).
- solder all of the browns back in.
I think I might have found it!
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/best_article/3354636
Looks like the flat parts actually bottom out first, leaving 0.8mm gap under the pin. Interesting.
Anyone have a spring they can measure?
http://cicball.thomasnet.com/category/rubber-balls-2
Springs sit inside the post. I just got done with a big mod project on my Filco. I'm 100% certain of this... LOL. 100%. It was the most boring two nights of my life.
Totally worth it, but absolutely boring. I had to:
- desolder all of the browns from my Leo
- desolder all of the reds from my Filco.
- lube all of the browns (this is so super boring there's no words for it).
- solder all of the browns back in.
After trying a few different materials and lengths I have decided that 1.5mm red oring sections feel best to me. I tried latex, pieces from a rubber anti-slip mat and the orings.
I also tried another little mod this weekend. Just on a loose switch for now, but I'll probably do this at the same time as trampoline modding the rest of the switches on my keyboard (man, I have to mod the plate so I don't have to desolder anything any more).
I put a little "latex milk" on the top piece of the case where the slider hits on the upstroke. Let it dry and assembled the switch. The effect is subtle but noticeable. It dampens the sound a little and changes the tone a touch.
(Attachment Link)
Interesting mod. You may wanna try and find just some straight rubber or silicon, similar to what the o-ring is made of, because if you cut pieces out of o-ring they will naturally curve which may vary in feeling on different keypresses or as you break it in.
I like the feeling of the switch with both mods done, expecially with heavy keycaps. It makes for a very quiet keyboard and feels very different to stock switches.
Interesting mod. You may wanna try and find just some straight rubber or silicon, similar to what the o-ring is made of, because if you cut pieces out of o-ring they will naturally curve which may vary in feeling on different keypresses or as you break it in.
Anybody have these made to fit perfectly?
latex, ha never would have thought of that
Since you don't feel or hear the botttoming out "click" and the release "click" is also softer, there is a little less confirmation of actuation even though the tactile bump is still there. The bump somehow feels a little less prominent, although I suspect that is psychological due to the lack of sound.
My favourite switches are now "62g lubed and stickered, trampoline and latex modded Ergo Clears with thick PBT or POM caps"... Geez, how far down the rabbit hole am I?
Not quite sure what you mean, but 1.5 to 2mm rubber balls would work quite well. the 3/32 balls from here may work, but they'll reduce the travel more than the 1.5mm pieces of silicone rubber I am using: http://cicball.thomasnet.com/item/rubber-balls-2/pure-gum-rubber-balls/pn-1072
Also, I don't know how much they would cost.
Okay, I've finished trampoline and latex modding my whole board:
(Attachment Link)
And... It feels simply amazing! The switches are the quietest I've ever tried and the feeling is just superb, definitely was worth the effort for me. I am starting to like the Browns more and more. Now I can't decide if I prefer the Ergoclears or Browns with this mod. :-\
I made a comparison video with my phone, but the microphone on it isn't very good. It picks up high frequencies a lot better than lows, so the modded switches sound a lot more clicky than they really are. I don't have any editing software installed at the moment either, so, sorry for the quality, but maybe you can tell something from it at least. The left side has stock browns, the right is trampoline and latex modded. No orings fitted to either side.
The pieces of oring work very well. You can cut them with straighter edges or more angled and try different lenths to adjust the feel. Nice for testing and finding what you like best. Be sure to try it with a mounted switch with a cap on, that's the only way to really check how it will feel in use. I got about 9 usable pieces per oring with a few pieces which were too small left over. Very economical ;)
I did have one "oops" moment while modding:
(Attachment Link)
I was thinking that cutting o-rings up would be rather hard to keep consistent without alot of work, and decided to do a variation of this mod using a 2mm thick pvc antislip mat, punching out beads with a belt hole puncher (this compresses the mat by quite a bit due to the punching, so I wasn't sure how it would work out).
Happy to report that the result was a very very slight reduction in bottom out distance (probably about 0.2mm) - and a total dampening of the bottom out sound (video will follow later). This feels very different from the using o-rings under keycaps - which I'd tried and really disliked.
Still have to figure out how to do latex mod or a quasi replacement without access to latex milk though - have to say it would make quite a difference wrt to keys larger than 1x as the pop up sound is alot more obvious for larger keys.
Yes, this was the idea that I posted earlier. This is what I wanted to try...
Larken: thanks for the demo. Your results sound amazing. Better sounding, I think, than any Topre I have heard so far. This is really starting to get some serious traction on my to-do list.
Pictures and a video while doing the trampoline mod (bottom half only):
1. Before starting the mod - I had to take apart my ergodox to desolder 2 leds from their switches as I didn't do the switch top mods when I first built it. This is after the point when I tried the mod on my thumb buttons and decided I like it enough to do it to the whole board.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7377/10924017186_6018c06e11_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/10924017186/)
And Larken can you cut a bunch more for other people to use?
Nice work, Larken! I like how your 'Dox looks! The wood works really well with the retro caps.
I found when using a hole punch to cut pieces from an anti-slip mat that it works best if you rotate the punch at the end of the press, so it cuts the bottom edge nicely. I ended up using oring pieces instead of the mat because I thought it felt better, it gave a slightly softer landing which I liked.
Pictures and a video while doing the trampoline mod (bottom half only):
1. Before starting the mod - I had to take apart my ergodox to desolder 2 leds from their switches as I didn't do the switch top mods when I first built it. This is after the point when I tried the mod on my thumb buttons and decided I like it enough to do it to the whole board.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7377/10924017186_6018c06e11_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/10924017186/)
Just wanted to share my experience with this mod:
I tried on 3 or 4 keys using little pieces of o-ring like Oobly did. It feels nice and springy. But, when I put a thick blue o-ring on a different key, I can't really tell the two keys apart. So I don't think it feels any different than the o-ring does.
However, when I had my DSA keycaps on these same switches, there was a big difference. Because of the different depth of the underside of the keycap, the o-ring did much less to dampen and soften the landing than the trampoline did. So I would say the main value of this mod is that the resulting feel is keycap independent. The soft springy landing will be the same no matter which keycaps you put on. It also means that if/when you change keycaps, you don't have to transfer the o-ring from the old keycap to the new one. It is much more effort up front though, since you have to take apart the switch to do it.
http://www.theppb.co.uk/technical.htm
Looks viable for rubber balls. I'm very interested in this mod. I'm typing on whites right now and I like how they feel compared to browns. I still need to try clear and green. I also haven't tried orings yet.
Thinking some balls might make my browns feel better as I type too hard for them and bottom out all the time.
Just wanted to share my experience with this mod:
I tried on 3 or 4 keys using little pieces of o-ring like Oobly did. It feels nice and springy. But, when I put a thick blue o-ring on a different key, I can't really tell the two keys apart. So I don't think it feels any different than the o-ring does.
However, when I had my DSA keycaps on these same switches, there was a big difference. Because of the different depth of the underside of the keycap, the o-ring did much less to dampen and soften the landing than the trampoline did. So I would say the main value of this mod is that the resulting feel is keycap independent. The soft springy landing will be the same no matter which keycaps you put on. It also means that if/when you change keycaps, you don't have to transfer the o-ring from the old keycap to the new one. It is much more effort up front though, since you have to take apart the switch to do it.
http://www.theppb.co.uk/technical.htm
Looks viable for rubber balls. I'm very interested in this mod. I'm typing on whites right now and I like how they feel compared to browns. I still need to try clear and green. I also haven't tried orings yet.
Thinking some balls might make my browns feel better as I type too hard for them and bottom out all the time.
Contacted them. Here is what I heard back.
Cellulose Acetate balls have a hardness
of around 73 Rockwell R.
We have some samples if you need to "feel" them!
1.5mm Cellulose Acetate x 250 @ £16.00/100, ex works
2mm Cellulose Acetate x 250 @ £17.00/100, ex works
The only rubber we stock in tiny sizes is Nitrile (70A) in 3/32" (2.38mm)
3/32" Nitrile x 250 @ £38.00/100, ex works
kind regards
Jan Garth
THE PRECISION PLASTIC BALL CO LTD
Will the latex ever wear out or will the feeling be consistant over a long period of time?
Awesome mod by the way!
how much of it do I need for 30 switches?
got any measurements?
Don't want to overbuy, just want a small bottle. And if this takes a lot (like layering) then i don't want to buy too little
Just thought of a new take on this mod inspired by redskull's project to increase the weight of 45g Topres by using stronger springs.
If we use miniature springs in the hole under the stem, we can have dual rate MX switches. Softer until activation, then harder. The uncompressed length needs to be roughly 2.8mm for non-clicky switches, and compressed (solid) length of around 0.8mm. Outer diameter about 2mm. I have found some little springs which may work, but they're too expensive ($1.58 each when buying 100-199).
I may just try it with a homemade spring to see.
I am happy with my board already, but I like experimenting, so I'll try with a couple individual switches and maybe someone else can benefit if they like how it feels.
It could help prevent bottoming out while retaining the normal switch feel until activation. Maybe more like a trampoline than the rubber piece :D
What if you use the latex milk to dampen the downward strike? I guess you would apply it to the bottom of the stem's sliders.
What if you use the latex milk to dampen the downward strike? I guess you would apply it to the bottom of the stem's sliders.
The switch stops when the stem's shaft hits the bottom. What you're suggesting is what the trampoline mod accomplishes; I don't think latex milk would hold up over time.
Matias has approached the problem in an interesting way. They use a little piece of rubber that fits on the slider and protrudes both above and below it, so the rubber piece hits when bottoming out AND releasing the switch.Note: Alps dampened cream/white switches also did this. E.g. the Apple Extended Keyboard II have such dampened switches. They have the same little rubber piece in the slider that hit the plastic at the bottom/top of the switch housing, eliminating much of the noise, that the new Matias switches have.
Thanks for the info on the Alps switches. Interesting.
Something important to the feel of this mod is the width of the piece you insert into the hole. If it is compressed until it fills the space, it'll stop dead at that point unless the material you use has some air spaces (foam). The hourglass shape and curved oring pieces leave a decent amount of "squish" area and both seem to work well (to my taste). A full 2mm diameter disc with vertical walls will feel quite different and won't compress much at all irrespective of the material (assuming a "solid" material like silicone, not foam), but would still provide some damping effect.
Neoprene rubber foam may provide a whole different feeling again, by being able to compress more, it may be more progressive.
There really are a lot of options with this for fine tuning the feel.
Sorbothane or some other really soft gel-like substance would probably do a better job than the latex mod on the switch tops, but I don't really know how we'd attach it.
Not sure I'll find time to play more with these options, but I thought I'd mention them in case there are some other adventurous souls out there who want to try.
Ever thought about putting some of that latex milk in the hole?
Would be hard to remove if you change your mind though...
Ever thought about putting some of that latex milk in the hole?
Would be hard to remove if you change your mind though...
Would also be pretty hard to be consistent. Unless you have access to a micropipette I'd think it would be pretty tough to get the same amount down into each hole. Even then I wouldn't be surprised if you wound up with some developing bubbles/air gaps, etc. so that the level of the top of latex, when dried, varies from switch to switch, although I haven't worked with the latex milk so I'm not really sure about its viscosity/surface tension, etc.
PigLick
Ever thought about putting some of that latex milk in the hole?
Would be hard to remove if you change your mind though...
Would also be pretty hard to be consistent. Unless you have access to a micropipette I'd think it would be pretty tough to get the same amount down into each hole. Even then I wouldn't be surprised if you wound up with some developing bubbles/air gaps, etc. so that the level of the top of latex, when dried, varies from switch to switch, although I haven't worked with the latex milk so I'm not really sure about its viscosity/surface tension, etc.
PigLick
Plus, as it dries it shrinks (a lot actually), so you'd get a sort of cup shaped bit in the hole and the sides would most likely peel away as it dries. I don't think it's a good solution.
You could try putting a little on the bottom of the pole of a Blue slider, though. Would provide just a little damping when bottoming out.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmm
http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=13&product_id=88
looks like imsto took your idea
ummmmmmmmmmmmmm
http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=13&product_id=88
looks like imsto took your idea
Haha! Very interesting. I believe they are silicon rubber, not silica gel, from what I can see in the photos.they're almost certainly little silicone balls, but they do look exactly like silica dessicant balls. hah! i can see how imsto could get the two compounds confused trying to translate the material name. i'll shoot him a quick correction ;)
Turns out the lighter spring was just a hair too large OD, so it bound to the tube and didn't really work.. Anyway, I like the "hourglass" pieces cut from silicon rubber sheet with the leather punch the most. They are consistent and pretty easy to make for a whole board.
I may have to buy some of those balls to try out. I suspect they will have a little less "give" than the hourglass shaped pieces, but should work very well. The price is decent, too.
Hey, Oobly - could you make a typing video with one of your keyboards w/ the trampoline mod?
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmToo bad that the shipping for these is so much :( (10$ for me)
http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=13&product_id=88
looks like imsto took your idea
What about trimming the bottom of the stem a bit and putting a small magnet at the bottom of the housing and one at the bottom of the stem?
Not sure whether this helps: How about cutting lengths from a long rubber cord rather than chopping up circular O-rings?
Google gives numerous hits for stretchy elastic cord (used to make necklaces, etc). But we need something that works in compression rather than tension.
Apparentl,y O-ring material comes in cord form.
Radio Shack (UK):
"RS Nitrile Rubber O-Ring Cord, 2mm Diam. , 8.5m Long"
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/o-ring-cords/6830765/
Not sure whether there are any hardness options out there, but 8500 mm for ~8.5 British pounds would do a lot of switches. And one might rig-up a "bacon slicer / craft knife" type thing to quickly feed through the cord and cut lots of pieces to the same length.
What about trimming the bottom of the stem a bit and putting a small magnet at the bottom of the housing and one at the bottom of the stem?
Not sure whether this helps: How about cutting lengths from a long rubber cord rather than chopping up circular O-rings?
Google gives numerous hits for stretchy elastic cord (used to make necklaces, etc). But we need something that works in compression rather than tension.
Apparentl,y O-ring material comes in cord form.
Radio Shack (UK):
"RS Nitrile Rubber O-Ring Cord, 2mm Diam. , 8.5m Long"
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/o-ring-cords/6830765/
Not sure whether there are any hardness options out there, but 8500 mm for ~8.5 British pounds would do a lot of switches. And one might rig-up a "bacon slicer / craft knife" type thing to quickly feed through the cord and cut lots of pieces to the same length.
That's a good option. I just used what I had to hand, and I suspect a lot of keyboard modders out there already have orings, so it's easy to test with pieces of those. If you do get some cord, it should be slightly smaller diameter than the hole (which is 2mm) since it needs some "squish" area to expand into when compressed. If you fill the diameter of the tube, then it will make for quite a hard bottoming out, since the rubber piece cannot compress much without the chance to deform.
Each shape actually feels a little different. The balls use up their "squish" space fairly quickly, whereas the hourglass shapes and curved oring pieces have a bit more room to deform into and provide a more progressive increase in force. It's quite subtle, but it's noticeable.
I think 1.5mm cord of the right durometer would do the job beautifully! It is very hard to cut orings consistently into the same size pieces.What about trimming the bottom of the stem a bit and putting a small magnet at the bottom of the housing and one at the bottom of the stem?
While that will provide extra cushioning as you get closer to then end of the switch travel, it may not prevent bottoming out or the sound of bottoming out unless you use really strong magnets. It's an interesting idea, though, particularly because you can adjust the force profile by changing magnet and spring strengths. Springs have a constant rate of force increase, whereas magnets have a parabolic increase.
If anyone tries this, please give us feedback! You may even be able to do away with the spring entirely with strong enough magnets and linear stems.
Having been made aware that there could be longevity issues with using liquid latex (in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57881.0 ), I remembered that there are some synthetic liquid rubbers available which could possibly do the job and may even be easier to get hold of, too.
This stuff could be a good product to use instead of latex: http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip
Having been made aware that there could be longevity issues with using liquid latex (in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57881.0 ), I remembered that there are some synthetic liquid rubbers available which could possibly do the job and may even be easier to get hold of, too.
This stuff could be a good product to use instead of latex: http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip
Im very interested in quieting down the upstroke clack on my Phantom and was planning on using liquid latex, but PlastiDip is much easier for me to get ahold of. Has anyone tried it yet? If not, I'm willing to be a guinea pig and test it out on a few switches (god knows I've got enough extra switch tops laying around lol).
Having been made aware that there could be longevity issues with using liquid latex (in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57881.0 ), I remembered that there are some synthetic liquid rubbers available which could possibly do the job and may even be easier to get hold of, too.
This stuff could be a good product to use instead of latex: http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip
Im very interested in quieting down the upstroke clack on my Phantom and was planning on using liquid latex, but PlastiDip is much easier for me to get ahold of. Has anyone tried it yet? If not, I'm willing to be a guinea pig and test it out on a few switches (god knows I've got enough extra switch tops laying around lol).
So I tested some black plastidip tonight with red switches and was thoroughly unimpressed. Its very hard to apply because it seems to have an appreciable capillary action where it sucks the entire way up the channels for the stem. I tried a few different methods of applying the plastidip and they all had so little affect on the sound so as to be almost imperceptible. I tried a light single coat, thick single coat, light double coat, and a thick double coat. None of it made the switch any quieter. The thick double coat actually made the initial press of the switch feel kind of "gummy". The 4 switch tops I tested with, in my opinion, are now ruined.
Personally I'm going to say PlastiDip is worthless for this purpose but I would welcome others to test and share their results.
Umm... it's supposed to be used on cars in the first place AFAIK.
Anybody tried silicon? Or hard foam?
Anybody tried silicon? Or hard foam?
try changing the ratios when doing silicon to change hardnessAnybody tried silicon? Or hard foam?
Not yet, but I'm going to try silicon next. I've tried out plastidip and crazy glue. They worked but I want something softer.
My silicone balls from IMSTO have arrived!
(Attachment Link)
They are 2mm diameter, but not all are perfectly round, some have mold lines around them, but they're fine for this mod.
I tried them in a few loose switches I have and compared them to the oring pieces and punched hourglasses.
They start to have effect at a similar point, but feel different. Initially they are softer than both the oring pieces and hourglasses, but the resistance increases more quickly. They are perfectly acceptable for this mod and I quite like the way they feel. The oring pieces may still be my favourite in terms of feeling, though, despite the slight inconsistency between keys.
I will be using them in my next ergo board prototype and probably any new boards I make / use.
For someone wanting to try out this mod, they're great. Easier than cutting up orings (and more consistent size) or punching holes in a sheet.
Recommended.
I tried putting 2 into a Brown switch just to test and while it was still possible to actuate the switch, the force increased quite markedly before getting to the actuation point, so you lose the tactility of the switch and have to press quite hard to actuate it... Not a good idea.
So if you compared them to o-ring travel reduction what would you think?
I do like that o-rings don't change the actual feel of the keys really..but it doesn't sound like it ramps up too too much w/ the balls...but it is always there though...I'd probably prefer these in linear but no way of knowing until I try I guess..
In your experience, how does this compare with the silicon balls mod?
So if you compared them to o-ring travel reduction what would you think?
I do like that o-rings don't change the actual feel of the keys really..but it doesn't sound like it ramps up too too much w/ the balls...but it is always there though...I'd probably prefer these in linear but no way of knowing until I try I guess..
Depends on the oring and what type of cap it's on. About the same travel reduction as red orings from Amazon.com on Keycool 84 white PBT caps, but feels better, less mushy, more progressive. You can try it with a loose switch to get an idea of how it would feel or just a couple of switches on your board.
So if you compared them to o-ring travel reduction what would you think?
I do like that o-rings don't change the actual feel of the keys really..but it doesn't sound like it ramps up too too much w/ the balls...but it is always there though...I'd probably prefer these in linear but no way of knowing until I try I guess..
Depends on the oring and what type of cap it's on. About the same travel reduction as red orings from Amazon.com on Keycool 84 white PBT caps, but feels better, less mushy, more progressive. You can try it with a loose switch to get an idea of how it would feel or just a couple of switches on your board.In your experience, how does this compare with the silicon balls mod?
Um... I guess this IS the silicone balls mod? You can read this post on how the 3 versions of the mod compare to each other: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50632.msg1386120#msg1386120 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50632.msg1386120#msg1386120)
I just got SA caps (which are great), but I do miss the orings I had on my cherrys. SA do not appear to be oring mod able, so I think this is my best bet. I actually feel (with oring testing) that a travel reduction of 0.5mm is perfect, so that's awesome.
Can you post the link to what you bought? Thx.
I just got SA caps (which are great), but I do miss the orings I had on my cherrys. SA do not appear to be oring mod able, so I think this is my best bet. I actually feel (with oring testing) that a travel reduction of 0.5mm is perfect, so that's awesome.
Can you post the link to what you bought? Thx.
No problem, here you go: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=88
Really good price, IMO, 3$ for about 200 balls.
I apologize for necroing this thread, but are the silicone balls removable once placed? I would imagine that they are not.
I apologize for necroing this thread, but are the silicone balls removable once placed? I would imagine that they are not.
99% they should be, unless you are living in 45C and they sort of get mushed in over time with excess heat
Otherwise they are just bouncy balls, there is no reason why they shouldn't be removed
Just keep in mind that the trampoline mod can get a bit annoying, it's mushy, I was interested in o-rings and trampoline mods in the beginning, but now I enjoy a free bottoming out experience, when I return to a keyboard with a trampoline modded spacebar I'm pretty irritated
No offence to anyone but I have to say the trampoline mod kind of sucks, the o-ring landing is firm, while the trampoline mod is just pure mushiness
For pure travel reduction, maybe you could find/make small metal/plastic discs that gets inserted/glued into the stem-hole
Back when I was using o-rings and when I was interested in this mod, I applied it to a spacebar switch, now that I'm using that keyboard for testing purposes, every time I press the spacebar, I get the urge to just open things up and replace the switch with a decent/non-modded one
Again, it's everyone's own preference, but mechanicals are liked for several reasons, the travel distance and bottom up/down sounds are one of them, this mod replaces 2 of these with mushiness
To make a mechanical keyboard to feel mushy goes against its nature; in that case, just get a cheap rubber dome and forget you ever known that there are mechanical keyboards.my o-rings are totally not mushy
To make a mechanical keyboard to feel mushy goes against its nature; in that case, just get a cheap rubber dome and forget you ever known that there are mechanical keyboards.my o-rings are totally not mushy
I like the idea that you can use this with any cap. Particularly SA caps, which already feel like you're slamming them down. I'm sure it's just a matter of finding the right material to suit your mushiness preference.
And Khan, there are a dozen different ways you could have said that which wouldn't have required "no offense." Just saying.
To make a mechanical keyboard to feel mushy goes against its nature; in that case, just get a cheap rubber dome and forget you ever known that there are mechanical keyboards.Please, show me all these rubber-dome Maltron-like keyboards.
To make a mechanical keyboard to feel mushy goes against its nature; in that case, just get a cheap rubber dome and forget you ever known that there are mechanical keyboards.Please, show me all these rubber-dome Maltron-like keyboards.
Is the trampoline mod more silent than o-rings?Depends on material used, but the trampolines ought to be a bit quieter, at least in theory, because the impact happens inside the switch, not outside.
Is the trampoline mod more silent than o-rings?Depends on material used, but the trampolines ought to be a bit quieter, at least in theory, because the impact happens inside the switch, not outside.
Rubber should be the most silent material right? Is there anything else to consider using for trampolines?
Rubber should be the most silent material right? Is there anything else to consider using for trampolines?
I've only used various types of rubber, but you could use anything you can fit I guess. Depends what feeling you're after. The shape of the material can affect the feel, too. I have used pieces cut from orings, rubber sheet cut with a hole punch and silicone balls from IMSTO. They all have slightly different feeling due to the softness and shape. The oring pieces are like very slightly curved cylinders, the ones cut with a hole punch looked like hourglass shapes, and the ones from IMSTO are balls. The balls give the most "sudden" stop, the oring pieces and hole punched ones are more "progressive". I think I actually like the oring pieces the most, probably because they're the softest, but they're hard to get consistent. For a balance of feel and consistency the hole punched ones were nice. If I could find a softer sheet of rubber to use, possibly even from Sorbothane, they'd probably be my favourites.
The balls from IMSTO are the easiest option, though, since they're available online and you just drop them into place, no cutting involved.
Rubber should be the most silent material right? Is there anything else to consider using for trampolines?
I've only used various types of rubber, but you could use anything you can fit I guess. Depends what feeling you're after. The shape of the material can affect the feel, too. I have used pieces cut from orings, rubber sheet cut with a hole punch and silicone balls from IMSTO. They all have slightly different feeling due to the softness and shape. The oring pieces are like very slightly curved cylinders, the ones cut with a hole punch looked like hourglass shapes, and the ones from IMSTO are balls. The balls give the most "sudden" stop, the oring pieces and hole punched ones are more "progressive". I think I actually like the oring pieces the most, probably because they're the softest, but they're hard to get consistent. For a balance of feel and consistency the hole punched ones were nice. If I could find a softer sheet of rubber to use, possibly even from Sorbothane, they'd probably be my favourites.
The balls from IMSTO are the easiest option, though, since they're available online and you just drop them into place, no cutting involved.
How mushy the switches get with IMSTO's? when compared with the other options.
Rubber should be the most silent material right? Is there anything else to consider using for trampolines?
I've only used various types of rubber, but you could use anything you can fit I guess. Depends what feeling you're after. The shape of the material can affect the feel, too. I have used pieces cut from orings, rubber sheet cut with a hole punch and silicone balls from IMSTO. They all have slightly different feeling due to the softness and shape. The oring pieces are like very slightly curved cylinders, the ones cut with a hole punch looked like hourglass shapes, and the ones from IMSTO are balls. The balls give the most "sudden" stop, the oring pieces and hole punched ones are more "progressive". I think I actually like the oring pieces the most, probably because they're the softest, but they're hard to get consistent. For a balance of feel and consistency the hole punched ones were nice. If I could find a softer sheet of rubber to use, possibly even from Sorbothane, they'd probably be my favourites.
The balls from IMSTO are the easiest option, though, since they're available online and you just drop them into place, no cutting involved.
How mushy the switches get with IMSTO's? when compared with the other options.
They're totally not mushy imo, but they shorten the travel distance for me to use
Rubber should be the most silent material right? Is there anything else to consider using for trampolines?
I've only used various types of rubber, but you could use anything you can fit I guess. Depends what feeling you're after. The shape of the material can affect the feel, too. I have used pieces cut from orings, rubber sheet cut with a hole punch and silicone balls from IMSTO. They all have slightly different feeling due to the softness and shape. The oring pieces are like very slightly curved cylinders, the ones cut with a hole punch looked like hourglass shapes, and the ones from IMSTO are balls. The balls give the most "sudden" stop, the oring pieces and hole punched ones are more "progressive". I think I actually like the oring pieces the most, probably because they're the softest, but they're hard to get consistent. For a balance of feel and consistency the hole punched ones were nice. If I could find a softer sheet of rubber to use, possibly even from Sorbothane, they'd probably be my favourites.
The balls from IMSTO are the easiest option, though, since they're available online and you just drop them into place, no cutting involved.
How mushy the switches get with IMSTO's? when compared with the other options.
Rubber should be the most silent material right? Is there anything else to consider using for trampolines?
I've only used various types of rubber, but you could use anything you can fit I guess. Depends what feeling you're after. The shape of the material can affect the feel, too. I have used pieces cut from orings, rubber sheet cut with a hole punch and silicone balls from IMSTO. They all have slightly different feeling due to the softness and shape. The oring pieces are like very slightly curved cylinders, the ones cut with a hole punch looked like hourglass shapes, and the ones from IMSTO are balls. The balls give the most "sudden" stop, the oring pieces and hole punched ones are more "progressive". I think I actually like the oring pieces the most, probably because they're the softest, but they're hard to get consistent. For a balance of feel and consistency the hole punched ones were nice. If I could find a softer sheet of rubber to use, possibly even from Sorbothane, they'd probably be my favourites.
The balls from IMSTO are the easiest option, though, since they're available online and you just drop them into place, no cutting involved.
How mushy the switches get with IMSTO's? when compared with the other options.
I have used them on a couple boards. I think the balls will feel less mushy than the other solutions because they are uniform and there is a limit to how much they can compact in the bottom of the stem. I have not tried the 'cut o-ring' method, so I am not positive about this.
I will say that the bottom out is softer than if you put standard o-rings on Cherry profile keycaps. I used Cherry profile PBT with o-rings for a long time. I personally prefer the silicone balls, but that might also be because they work perfectly with the SA caps (no other dampening solution does).
It definitely shortens the throw of the switch (probably too much for blues because of the little extra piece at the end of the stem). The shortening of the throw is the closest thing to a problem that I have with these. It shortens it by just a hair more than I would like, but once you actually use the board a bit, you will completely forget about it.
Hope that helps. For the record, I am using these again for my latest build project, so I have given this mod some real time... For $3 you can't go wrong (if you already have something shipping)...
So I went to check out some hole punchers and I saw on which was 1/16", would that work for the hole? How big is the hole in a mx switch? Also what materials would be best? Didn't find rubber but i saw felt material and foam, would that work? How about just paper? And why not just use a liquid latex dampen bottom down sound?If you go this route I would probably try to use a closed cell silicone or neoprene foam with about 30-50 durometer. That's my hunch. If you want I can probably test it for you this weekend. I have a few different materials and I should have a small enough leather punch. I can try to give you a comparison between the IMSTO balls and the tests.
So I went to check out some hole punchers and I saw on which was 1/16", would that work for the hole? How big is the hole in a mx switch? Also what materials would be best? Didn't find rubber but i saw felt material and foam, would that work? How about just paper? And why not just use a liquid latex dampen bottom down sound?
So I went to check out some hole punchers and I saw on which was 1/16", would that work for the hole? How big is the hole in a mx switch? Also what materials would be best? Didn't find rubber but i saw felt material and foam, would that work? How about just paper? And why not just use a liquid latex dampen bottom down sound?If you go this route I would probably try to use a closed cell silicone or neoprene foam with about 30-50 durometer. That's my hunch. If you want I can probably test it for you this weekend. I have a few different materials and I should have a small enough leather punch. I can try to give you a comparison between the IMSTO balls and the tests.
I have a lot going on right now, so I apologize if I am a bit slow.
Foam would work best out of those options. Felt would also dampen the sound, but I think it would feel weird. Could be worth a try, though. The hole is 2mm diameter, so 1/16" will fit inside, but may be a bit loose. I use a leather hole punch which has a rotating part with different sizes on.
You will want to use materials that will return to its original form once the key is released I think. Also, you will want a material that will not degrade with usage like anything woven. My two cents anyway.So I went to check out some hole punchers and I saw on which was 1/16", would that work for the hole? How big is the hole in a mx switch? Also what materials would be best? Didn't find rubber but i saw felt material and foam, would that work? How about just paper? And why not just use a liquid latex dampen bottom down sound?If you go this route I would probably try to use a closed cell silicone or neoprene foam with about 30-50 durometer. That's my hunch. If you want I can probably test it for you this weekend. I have a few different materials and I should have a small enough leather punch. I can try to give you a comparison between the IMSTO balls and the tests.
I have a lot going on right now, so I apologize if I am a bit slow.
That would be most appreciated sir :D Somehow it's my hunch that most materials will work but I will test it tomorrow.
The foam which i saw a the store was 2mm thick so I won't bother with that, I need something more along the lines of 1mm for my travel shortening needs.Foam would work best out of those options. Felt would also dampen the sound, but I think it would feel weird. Could be worth a try, though. The hole is 2mm diameter, so 1/16" will fit inside, but may be a bit loose. I use a leather hole punch which has a rotating part with different sizes on.
I'm going to try out the felt and a paper, and maybe a sock :D.
I can buy a 2mm or 1.5875 mm hole puncher, which do you guys think will be better for the 2mm hole?
So i found a place where you can buy neoprene rubber in my country
http://www.fossberg.is/?prodid=1434
I can buy a leather puncher which is 2mm with it (I'm assuming 2mm is better than 1.5875mm for this job)
the smallest kind of rubber sheet is 1mm however
and I'm actually worried it's actually too thick
because, I use cherry profile, and with that profile an o-ring is more severe on travel distance shortening, and I actually want travel distance shortening but very little it seems since 1mm o-rings are my favorite
according to your research here swill https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53174.msg1186392#msg1186392 if I understand everything correctly, that means that the shortening of the travel distance is = 4.15 - 3.95 = 0.2mm with 1mm o-rings. Well doesn't that mean that I would need a 0.2mm material for a trampoline mod for the same travel distance shortening?
Have you ever consider that micro switches based on cross-point contact mechanisms with springs are designed with no rubber parts for a reason?Persistent troll is persistent. I like that.
First off, there's another difference between these and "genuine" MX. The slider rod and tube are slightly different and they leave a smaller gap at bottom out (eyeballing it, it looks closer to 0.5mm compared to the 0.8mm of "genuine" MX). Which means trampoline modding these requires different thicknesses of material. The balls from IMSTO result in too much loss of travel and increased "mush". I'll be posting more about this in the trampoline mod thread, but so far it looks like slices of orings do the best job.
Have you ever consider that micro switches based on cross-point contact mechanisms with springs are designed with no rubber parts for a reason?Persistent troll is persistent. I like that.
I didn't think you were trolling. :)Have you ever consider that micro switches based on cross-point contact mechanisms with springs are designed with no rubber parts for a reason?Persistent troll is persistent. I like that.
Since when stating a fact is trolling, or maybe you are the trolling judge.
I will try the balls mod as soon as I get IMSTO's order; but, that does not change the fact that no discrete mechanical switch has been designed with rubber components.
I didn't think you were trolling. :)Have you ever consider that micro switches based on cross-point contact mechanisms with springs are designed with no rubber parts for a reason?Persistent troll is persistent. I like that.
Since when stating a fact is trolling, or maybe you are the trolling judge.
I will try the balls mod as soon as I get IMSTO's order; but, that does not change the fact that no discrete mechanical switch has been designed with rubber components.
Can you post which switches you are testing with as well?
that does not change the fact that no discrete mechanical switch has been designed with rubber components.
that does not change the fact that no discrete mechanical switch has been designed with rubber components.
What about SKCM damped alps, does that count?
I just found out about there being a name for what I've been calling internal dampening (trampoline mod).
I use Ninjaflex (flexible 3d printer filament) for my internal dampening. Very cheap if you know someone with a spool - not worth buying a spool just for this mod.
Its critical that you cut the pieces with a razorblade at identical lengths for uniformity across switches.
I superglue the "piece of flex filament" to the bottom of the stem for consistency.
I found a project on thingiverse for a miniature razor chop plate (think a miniature old-school paper cutter, but uses an industrial razor blade instead).
The silicone balls looks a lot easier though.
Paul (HB)
that does not change the fact that no discrete mechanical switch has been designed with rubber components.
What about SKCM damped alps, does that count?
Good point. They have two rubber inserts each.
So I realized that using my 1mmx1,585mm rubber pads won't work since they move inside the switch and change from horizontal and vertical so the feeling changes all the time. I know that it's perfect horizontal so 1mm width is what I'm looking for. So I just need to buy a 1mm hole puncher.
Or. I can buy some 1mm diameter balls. From a short google I found this http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Factory-direct-sale-white-or-black_60196027577.html?spm=a2700.7724838.30.1.j2k2Dc
these are rubber not silicone, I wonder if it will make much of a difference?
Just finished a board with latex & trampoline mod as I mentioned I was going to do. The trampoline mod seems consistent, I don't notice any incosistencies, and the travel distance reduction seems roughly as much as 1mm o-ring would do with cherry profile caps (maybe a tad more travel reduction but I don't think I mind it). The board is silent as hell also, I'm still deciding if I prefer it or not. Should be very cool for a work environment though, which I'm going to use it for.
Here is a potato video showcasing the latex mod on the ultra silent board with the trampoline mod (actuation happens on the inside so it's quieter than o-rings) and lubed zealios
feature=youtu.be
My verdict on the mod:
I don't like it. Sorry.
1. I think it makes the board too silent. I dislike the stock clack on mx but I like some auditory feedback like with the upstroke sound, well it's not necessarily about the feedback but about the feeling of satisfaction that you are getting some work done which comes from the keyboard sounds.
2. It feels like it gums up the switch, it makes it somehow mushier. The upstroke is now soft instead of hard and it gives you a mushy feel.
3. The audio kind of reminds me of topre/rubber domes right now, which I dislike
4. The mod is really hard to make consistent and I feel it might have a slight effect on travel distance in some cases
and for the trampoline mod: it also makes the switch mushier compared to o-rings I feel. It also has a little bit more travel reduction than 1mm o-rings with cherry profile caps. Which I dislike.
I will be removing the latex and trampoline mods and will keep using my 1mm o-rings.
Here is a potato video showcasing the latex mod on the ultra silent board with the trampoline mod (actuation happens on the inside so it's quieter than o-rings) and lubed zealiosYou did both the trampoline mod (ball in the stem) and the latex mod (to silence the upstroke), right?
feature=youtu.be
My verdict on the mod:
I don't like it. Sorry.
1. I think it makes the board too silent. I dislike the stock clack on mx but I like some auditory feedback like with the upstroke sound, well it's not necessarily about the feedback but about the feeling of satisfaction that you are getting some work done which comes from the keyboard sounds.
2. It feels like it gums up the switch, it makes it somehow mushier. The upstroke is now soft instead of hard and it gives you a mushy feel.
3. The audio kind of reminds me of topre/rubber domes right now, which I dislike
4. The mod is really hard to make consistent and I feel it might have a slight effect on travel distance in some cases
and for the trampoline mod: it also makes the switch mushier compared to o-rings I feel. It also has a little bit more travel reduction than 1mm o-rings with cherry profile caps. Which I dislike.
I will be removing the latex and trampoline mods and will keep using my 1mm o-rings.
Here is a potato video showcasing the latex mod on the ultra silent board with the trampoline mod (actuation happens on the inside so it's quieter than o-rings) and lubed zealiosYou did both the trampoline mod (ball in the stem) and the latex mod (to silence the upstroke), right?
feature=youtu.be
My verdict on the mod:
I don't like it. Sorry.
1. I think it makes the board too silent. I dislike the stock clack on mx but I like some auditory feedback like with the upstroke sound, well it's not necessarily about the feedback but about the feeling of satisfaction that you are getting some work done which comes from the keyboard sounds.
2. It feels like it gums up the switch, it makes it somehow mushier. The upstroke is now soft instead of hard and it gives you a mushy feel.
3. The audio kind of reminds me of topre/rubber domes right now, which I dislike
4. The mod is really hard to make consistent and I feel it might have a slight effect on travel distance in some cases
and for the trampoline mod: it also makes the switch mushier compared to o-rings I feel. It also has a little bit more travel reduction than 1mm o-rings with cherry profile caps. Which I dislike.
I will be removing the latex and trampoline mods and will keep using my 1mm o-rings.
The latex mod should have truly minimal effect to the feel and travel since it's literally a paper thin layer of material. In any case, you can't "feel" the upstroke, only hear it. It's also really consistent on my own switches, since it's such a thin layer. What material did you use and how did you apply it?
Neoprene is "mushier" than solid rubber, so that will contribute to the mushy feel. Both the material and the shape affect the feeling. If you want a harder bottom out, either use something that fills the hole more completely or use a harder material. If the piece fills the hole when compressing it will stop the slider moving further, since most rubbers are flexible, but not really compressible. This is also why the balls feel different to the oring pieces, even though they're very similar hardness.
Kudos for trying the mods and finding your preference, but I feel that you could make them work better for your preferences with some changes.
I agree, the audio is similar to silenced Topre and I find the bottom-out feel with oring pieces has similarities, too. But I still much prefer the tactility of Clears / Purple Zealios to Topre, so I like the mod on Zealios. After trying a few different versions the sliced red silicone orings still feel the best to me. I already gave a preview of the sound with my video earlier in the thread.