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Author Topic: Model XT (not F) mayhem--HELP!!!!!  (Read 15397 times)

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Offline _Trev

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Model XT (not F) mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 20:04:19 »
IBM Model F XT.



I found this beauty today at a thrift store for $1.91, and decided to clean it. I took the plate off the PCB (to get the space bar on), and now I cant put it back on. I have springs everywhere, and after an hour of trying I still can't get the thing to get back in one piece.





help? :'(
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 April 2010, 21:45:01 by _Trev »
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Offline kishy

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 20:22:53 »
AFAIK taking all the keys except the spacebar off will make your life much easier (so the springs aren't being pushed back down by anything during reassembly).

Haven't done it myself, just repeating the commonly said words.
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Offline HaaTa

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 20:26:02 »
I've never had any trouble with the spacebar...

Make sure to stabilize both sides of the PCB so that the springs don't bounce out (damn that was a bad explanation).

Just look at the pictures to my mod and you should be good.
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Offline kishy

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 20:27:31 »
Maybe it wasn't Model Fs for the spacebar. In any event I wanted to give the lowest-potential-harm advice and for SOME type of keyboard, taking the spacebar off causes grief.
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Offline HaaTa

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 21:03:46 »
Lol.

From what I've heard the Model F Terminal boards are more of a pain in the ass to put back together (Still beats having to take rivets off though).
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Kiibohd

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Offline EverythingIBM

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 21:12:35 »
Quote from: HaaTa;173349
Lol.

From what I've heard the Model F Terminal boards are more of a pain in the ass to put back together (Still beats having to take rivets off though).


RIVETS!! I hate rivets... little black stubs of anguish that jump out at you from your model M.
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Offline _Trev

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 21:31:52 »
Quote from: kishy;173343
AFAIK taking all the keys except the spacebar off will make your life much easier (so the springs aren't being pushed back down by anything during reassembly).

Haven't done it myself, just repeating the commonly said words.

this worked beautifully!!! thanks!
Just a pain to take off all the keys for a second time. I also got someone to hold the thing while I put it back on.

*phew*

I was told to come here from the forums I use, http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/714613-thrift-store-mechanical-keyboard-2.html
I will defiantly use this site more! (I may mod the thing in the future)
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Offline skcheng

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 21:36:03 »
Is this keyboard a Model F XT or AT??
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Offline phoenix

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 22:21:10 »
Quote from: skcheng;173355
Is this keyboard a Model F XT or AT??


It's an XT.
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Offline didjamatic

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 22:23:01 »
The AT's will say "Personal Computer AT" on the front label
I believe all XT's say "Personal Computer" or "Personal Computer XT"
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Offline sethstorm

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 22:53:25 »
Quote from: HaaTa;173349
Lol.

From what I've heard the Model F Terminal boards are more of a pain in the ass to put back together (Still beats having to take rivets off though).

Take off all the keys, and they will fit together easily - no stabilizer in the way.  That's what I ended up doing.

See my "Single-row enter" link in my signature for details.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 April 2010, 22:55:53 by sethstorm »
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Offline skcheng

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 22:56:23 »
Quote from: didjamatic;173366
The AT's will say "Personal Computer AT" on the front label
I believe all XT's say "Personal Computer" or "Personal Computer XT"


So doesn't the XT need some sort of active adapter to work with modern PCs??
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Offline Phaedrus2129

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 23:12:08 »
No, his pics show it's an AT:

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Offline phoenix

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 23:16:14 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;173373
No, his pics show it's an AT:


Both XT and AT use DIN5. It doesn't mean it's AT compatible.
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Offline nowsharing

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 23:17:19 »
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 April 2010, 23:20:01 by nowsharing »
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Offline Phaedrus2129

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 23:24:44 »
Dang. Better point out to him where to get an active adapter.
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Offline kcsaff

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 00:14:02 »
Here's a thread on building an adaptor.

I've been designing my own to auto-detect AT or XT and use whatever's appropriate.  It was working this afternoon, hot-swapping between the two, but I think I killed the AT keyboard I was using for testing, so I don't think it's ready for prime time yet.
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Offline ch_123

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 03:47:44 »
You want to see this.

XT Model Fs are more difficult to reassemble compared with their AT brethern.
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Offline _Trev

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 08:02:15 »
oh no!! I ordered an adapter online last night!
EDIT:
can I modify the existing one that I got, or should I look for another keyboard?

cleaned keyboard:
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 April 2010, 08:22:50 by _Trev »
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Offline skcheng

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 08:59:28 »
What adapter did you order??  The standard AT -> PS/2 adapter will not work from what I understand.
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Offline ch_123

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 09:40:33 »
Yeah, you need a full blown protocol converter, which are quite hard to find. You'd probably have to make one yourself, and unless you have experience with such things, it's probably not going to be a trivial task.
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Offline Phaedrus2129

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 15:40:53 »
Out of curiosity, can you make an AT->PS/2 adapter by splicing wires and using copious amounts of electrical tape? It's the same protocol, just different port, right?
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Offline didjamatic

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 16:00:01 »
AT to PS/2 yes, but not all 5pin DIN's are AT.
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Offline kishy

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 17:15:58 »
Yeah...

AT = PS/2, PS/2 = AT. Same signals, different connector. Some finer details ARE different on a low level but electrically, this is a safe mix and just about 100% of the time will work assuming you matched the pins correctly.

XT != pretty much anything. The pinout is the same as AT (the pins carry the same "category" of information, but the type of info being carried is different, if that makes sense), the connector is the same, and generally no damage comes from connecting one to the other, but it just won't work.
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Offline _Trev

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 18:34:35 »
Maybe if I went XT to PS/2 then PS/2 to USB and then magically Windows 7 will recognize it.... nah. I will see what I can do on making my own protocol converter. Probably won't happen anytime soon ;)
Meanwhile I may go to another thrift store and see if I can find another keyboard.

EDIT: Is linux an option here? I am reading around on google that linux has XT support? o.O
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 April 2010, 19:51:22 by _Trev »
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Offline Phaedrus2129

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 20:06:50 »
It's an issue of the hardware, I think, not the operating system. The XT data signals wont' be read correctly by your motherboard if you hook it to the PS/2 port.
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Offline _Trev

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 20:49:53 »
I have also heard of motherboards frying if I was to plug this in (though I doubt that :p). Where can I find a pre-made active adapters for XT -> AT (or PS/2). I have been searching around and can't find anything.
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Offline ch_123

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 20 April 2010, 04:02:18 »
Quote from: _Trev;173588
Maybe if I went XT to PS/2 then PS/2 to USB and then magically Windows 7 will recognize it.... nah. I will see what I can do on making my own protocol converter. Probably won't happen anytime soon ;)
Meanwhile I may go to another thrift store and see if I can find another keyboard.

EDIT: Is linux an option here? I am reading around on google that linux has XT support? o.O


There's some project called parkbd for converting XT to a parallel port using a home made adapter.

I don't think any big company has ever made an XT to AT adapter. The old XT layout was so bad that I don't think anyone really wanted to keep them on.
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Offline JBert

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 24 April 2010, 17:09:02 »
For the record: I've tried a parkbd adapter but it didn't work for me. Could have been a problem with my wiring though as I pieced it together from different parts of PCB I had laying around.

Nothing wrong with the XT protocol except that it won't do two-way communication as is needed for lock lights. It's actually the simplest thing that works and still remains elegant.
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Offline kishy

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 24 April 2010, 17:32:12 »
There's been a project at the Vintage Computer Forums to get AT kbs working on XT machines. Presumably it can go the other way without too much modification.
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Offline Phaedrus2129

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 24 April 2010, 18:52:26 »
Quote from: kishy;175581
Presumably it can go the other way without too much modification.


That's what my girlfriend said, but in retrospect I am disinclined to agree.
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Offline JBert

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 24 April 2010, 18:54:26 »
IIRC the thread discussing that project contained source code for an XT-to-AT converter as quite some folks were requesting it.
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The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)

Currently ignored by: nobody?

Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.[/SIZE]

Offline EverythingIBM

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 24 April 2010, 20:11:09 »
Quote from: _Trev;173608
I have also heard of motherboards frying if I was to plug this in (though I doubt that :p). Where can I find a pre-made active adapters for XT -> AT (or PS/2). I have been searching around and can't find anything.


The best solution is just to get a model F AT; THEN you can use your adapter that I presume already arrived.
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Offline kishy

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 24 April 2010, 21:17:09 »
Quote from: ripster;175673
Vintage Computer guys want their rubber dome keyboards to work with 25 year old computers and we want 25 year old keyboards to work with modern computers?  

I guess it's a matter of perspective.


The focus is more on how it's considerably harder to find XT keyboards now and one who is more comfortable with the newer layouts will prefer using a newer keyboard, be it Model M or whatever.

Plus, if you're like me, you want to be able to use the same type of monitor, keyboard, mouse with all your systems. Same idea as throwing a VGA card in an XT...trash the old inefficient unreliable and unhealthy pre-VGA CRT monitor.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 24 April 2010, 21:23:19 »
Quote from: kishy;175682
The focus is more on how it's considerably harder to find XT keyboards now and one who is more comfortable with the newer layouts will prefer using a newer keyboard, be it Model M or whatever.

Plus, if you're like me, you want to be able to use the same type of monitor, keyboard, mouse with all your systems. Same idea as throwing a VGA card in an XT...trash the old inefficient unreliable and unhealthy pre-VGA CRT monitor.


And that is why the PC platform is so nice.
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Offline ch_123

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 25 April 2010, 04:10:32 »
Macs come with an inbuilt screen so you don't have to worry about finding the right adapter card

« Last Edit: Sun, 25 April 2010, 04:14:08 by ch_123 »
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Offline HaaTa

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Re: Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 25 April 2010, 05:42:17 »
Except your fack'd if the screen dies on ya.

Unless your comfortable with replacing that sort of thing.
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Kiibohd

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Offline EverythingIBM

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Model F mayhem--HELP!!!!!
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 25 April 2010, 06:36:33 »
Quote from: ch_123;175731
Macs come with an inbuilt screen so you don't have to worry about finding the right adapter card


Oh yes silly me! Who needs to use a modern LCD on their old PC when they could have a horrible CRT as the only option.
I never had issues with adapter cards; it's actually a good thing to have because you can update the computer... like that pesky pig fryer fx 3400. And usually computers have a built in port, with an adapter as optional.

And Mac CRTs are strange:

The pixel layout uses a cheaper design than most (very hard on my eyes). And yes, the mac was hanging; but I guess it is in a school environment. The HPs are no better; but I have nothing good to say about those either.
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