Topre Appreciation Thread!

[eth0s]

Got my first topre board...definitely interesting. I got a HHKB Pro2 Type-S, now I'm curious to see what 55g feels like.

Well you started with the best.  Excellent choice!

[Michael]

Nice, we can now be Type-S buddies!

[Trev]

My journey has also brought me to a Type-S. Just ordered via smart imports yesterday. Now for the wait

[lazerpointer]

Daily runner at work for a few weeks now  is a Type-S. I do love it. I type on it just for fun sometimes.

I think it's so important for Topre that you try it for at least a month. The feel definitely changes from lots of use. It gets much smoother and gives way to the fingers with minimal friction. I think room temperature has some factor in the feel of it as well (like when it's ubber cold, I think the actuation force actually goes up slightly)

[AKIMbO]

Ahhh type s...so thocking quiet!

[Michael]

Ahhh type s...so thocking quiet!

You going to join the Type-S Buddy Club, bro?

[khaangaaroo]

30g + silenced = no sound

[AKIMbO]

Ahhh type s...so thocking quiet!

You going to join the Type-S Buddy Club, bro?

Dunno...I'm torn on a nomral HHKB or the Typse S.  I've heard the Type S has reduced key travel from some. 

I can't make up my thocking mind.

[Acetrak]

Type-S waddup!

2 hours into typing this, feels pretty good. I've always been a fan of tactile switches so the thock feel is familiar yet different, it's more subtle but it's there. Pretty refreshing to say the least.

I went with 1:on 2:off 3:on 4:off 5:on 6:off for dip switches

[Trev]

Dunno...I'm torn on a nomral HHKB or the Typse S.  I've heard the Type S has reduced key travel from some. 

I can't make up my thocking mind.

Sounds like you're assuming the 0.2mm reduced travel is a bad thing. IMO, it's definitely not (I have both in front of me)

With the standard 45g Topre, I can aaaaalmost type without bottoming out all the time. With the Type-S I always bottom-out, but speed and accuracy have improved.

Your milage may vary.

[phoxxii]

I really hope to hell that after selling my old Razer piece of ****, and then finding a home for this Das Ultimate that I'm typing on I will be able to cobble up the rest of the funds for a HHKB2...

If anyone wants to help me achieve my goal sooner by all means send me a PM 

Hopefully I will be raving about my Topre board soon!

[Trev]

I have a Das standard here with Blues. Honestly, it's garbage compared to anything Topre. The blues are scratchy and uselessly noisy. Ghetto switches. Luckily Das sell easily on Ebay. I'd recommend giving that a shot.

[Michael]

Ahhh type s...so thocking quiet!

You going to join the Type-S Buddy Club, bro?

Dunno...I'm torn on a nomral HHKB or the Typse S.  I've heard the Type S has reduced key travel from some. 

I can't make up my thocking mind.

The reduced travel is not even noticeable. You would not be able to sit a regular hhkb and a type s side by side and tell the difference, it's that slight.

[Trev]

They're both sitting right here. It does make a noticeable difference. The regular Topre switches don't bottom out as easily. I prefer the Type-S not due to the sound, but because of the feel (due to reduced travel). They're faster.

[Michael]

They're both sitting right here. It does make a noticeable difference. The regular Topre switches don't bottom out as easily. I prefer the Type-S not due to the sound, but because of the feel (due to reduced travel). They're faster.

It makes a noticeable difference in the way it feels, but you can't see the difference in travel with the naked eye. You can hear and feel it, though. It doesn't take away from the feel of the rubber collapsing, either.

[Macsmasher]

Ahhh type s...so thocking quiet!

Ok...is it 'thock' or 'thonk'?

[AKIMbO]

Ahhh type s...so thocking quiet!

Ok...is it 'thock' or 'thonk'?

It's thock.  How the thock did you think it was thonk? 

[Macsmasher]

They're both sitting right here. It does make a noticeable difference. The regular Topre switches don't bottom out as easily. I prefer the Type-S not due to the sound, but because of the feel (due to reduced travel). They're faster.

I've had an 87U silent for about four months. I bought it new. I just got a new non-silenced HHKB Pro 2 a few weeks ago. I like them both for different reasons.

I actually enjoy the sound of the HHKB. It's still much quieter than my MX browns or reds, and the 'thonk' sound is...soothing. But if I had to pick only one today, it would be the 87U. Maybe in a month I'll feel different. But IMHO, the 87U has a refinement level a tad higher. I don’t know enough about keyboard engineering to say why, but my guess is the metal mounting plate in the Realforce.

Regarding typing speed; I did some speed comparisons between the two. I'm ~ 3 wpm faster on the 87U every time using the same text on TypeRacer. I'm currently around 60 wpm on Colemak. (Just switched from Qwerty to Colemak three months ago. Still have a ways to go before I'm at full speed. But I was capped out at 70 wpm on Qwerty. With Colemak, I'm expecting to be at 90 + wpm by year's end.)

Regarding reduced travel between silenced and non-silenced; I honestly can’t tell a difference. It does feel different. I don't know if I can attribute that to reduced key travel. However, I’ve tried EK landing pads on Cherry switches. The reduced key travel was blaringly obvious. In fact, it effected the switch feel so much we took them off.

So yeah...after that long-winded bunch of rambling BS, I prefer the silenced switch 'feel' better. And I might place my HHKB up with the Realforce if it had silenced keys.

[Amarok]

Please stop talking about versions of Topre different from the Realforce 87U 45g and 55g lest I be forced to purchase more boards to feel included in the discussion.

[Macsmasher]

Ahhh type s...so thocking quiet!

Ok...is it 'thock' or 'thonk'?

It's thock.  How the thock did you think it was thonk? 

I did thik if was 'thonk'. But thaks for clearing that up.

[keymaster]

They're both sitting right here. It does make a noticeable difference. The regular Topre switches don't bottom out as easily. I prefer the Type-S not due to the sound, but because of the feel (due to reduced travel). They're faster.

I've had an 87U silent for about four months. I bought it new. I just got a new non-silenced HHKB Pro 2 a few weeks ago. I like them both for different reasons.

I actually enjoy the sound of the HHKB. It's still much quieter than my MX browns or reds, and the 'thonk' sound is...soothing. But if I had to pick only one today, it would be the 87U. Maybe in a month I'll feel different. But IMHO, the 87U has a refinement level a tad higher. I don’t know enough about keyboard engineering to say why, but my guess is the metal mounting plate in the Realforce.

Regarding typing speed; I did some speed comparisons between the two. I'm ~ 3 wpm faster on the 87U every time using the same text on TypeRacer. I'm currently around 60 wpm on Colemak. (Just switched from Qwerty to Colemak three months ago. Still have a ways to go before I'm at full speed. But I was capped out at 70 wpm on Qwerty. With Colemak, I'm expecting to be at 90 + wpm by year's end.)

Regarding reduced travel between silenced and non-silenced; I honestly can’t tell a difference. It does feel different. I don't know if I can attribute that to reduced key travel. However, I’ve tried EK landing pads on Cherry switches. The reduced key travel was blaringly obvious. In fact, it effected the switch feel so much we took them off.

So yeah...after that long-winded bunch of rambling BS, I prefer the silenced switch 'feel' better. And I might place my HHKB up with the Realforce if it had silenced keys.

I'm surprised how much better the silenced one sounds.

[Trev]

Yeah. I'm not a fan of how the regular Topre makes noise on the up-stroke.

Thock? Yes.

Thock-clack? No.   

[iri]

Yeah. I'm not a fan of how the regular Topre makes noise on the up-stroke.

blasphemy and heathen

[Macsmasher]

Ahhh type s...so thocking quiet!

You going to join the Type-S Buddy Club, bro?

Dunno...I'm torn on a nomral HHKB or the Typse S.  I've heard the Type S has reduced key travel from some. 

I can't make up my thocking mind.

As I said, I like the feel of the silenced better. It feels more refined. The cost differential between the two in the Realforce line is justifiable. I think it's around $30. HHKB is another story. Would it be worth the extra $130 for the silenced HHKB? Only you and your bank account can answer that. If it is important to you, go for it. H*ll, you're already spending a ton anyway. What's another $130?!   

[Michael]

Please stop talking about versions of Topre different from the Realforce 87U 45g and 55g lest I be forced to purchase more boards to feel included in the discussion.

Sorry bro, you are just going to have to buy moar topre boards ^__^

[lazerpointer]

The un-silenced one sounds more like a... keyboard IMO. I personally prefer the silenced switches... I can bust out the clicky alps or buckling springs if I want noise.

[sth]

Interesting. Ducky announced they are also a Topre agent and reseller.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ducky-Keyboard/117547488320354

oh damnit does this mean backlit topre and novelty keys are coming? the end is nigh

[Amarok]

Interesting. Ducky announced they are also a Topre agent and reseller.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ducky-Keyboard/117547488320354

oh damnit does this mean backlit topre and novelty keys are coming? the end is nigh

All I know is that case has no logo and I wants it.

Edit: nevermind, it would help if I looked at the full picture...

[MJ45]

Ahhh type s...so thocking quiet!

You going to join the Type-S Buddy Club, bro?

Dunno...I'm torn on a nomral HHKB or the Typse S.  I've heard the Type S has reduced key travel from some. 

I can't make up my thocking mind.

As I said, I like the feel of the silenced better. It feels more refined. The cost differential between the two in the Realforce line is justifiable. I think it's around $30. HHKB is another story. Would it be worth the extra $130 for the silenced HHKB? Only you and your bank account can answer that. If it is important to you, go for it. H*ll, you're already spending a ton anyway. What's another $130?!   

The HHKB type S has a 3mm travel vs. 4mm reg. model, the sound reduction is on the upstroke. I don't think most would feel a 1mm difference IMO or better feel, it just silencing key return. 
Edit; I was way off so its way less difference but still on the up stroke. I stand corrected Thanks !!

[daerid]

Yeah. I'm not a fan of how the regular Topre makes noise on the up-stroke.

blasphemy and heathen

Amen. Sometimes I feel like an aberrant for liking the sound of the standard Topre over the silenced.

[Michael]

As I said, I like the feel of the silenced better. It feels more refined. The cost differential between the two in the Realforce line is justifiable. I think it's around $30. HHKB is another story. Would it be worth the extra $130 for the silenced HHKB? Only you and your bank account can answer that. If it is important to you, go for it. H*ll, you're already spending a ton anyway. What's another $130?!   

Or you can just spend a very small amount of money for essentially the same thing as a Type-S. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40582


That is, if you feel comfortable taking your HHKB apart.

[emusan]

Interesting. Ducky announced they are also a Topre agent and reseller.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ducky-Keyboard/117547488320354

oh damnit does this mean backlit topre and novelty keys are coming? the end is nigh

I don't believe so, if I read it correctly they will just be re-distributing Realforce in China/Asia (not sure where). I could very well be wrong though...

[Macsmasher]

The HHKB type S has a 3mm travel vs. 4mm reg. model, the sound reduction is on the upstroke. I don't think most would feel a 1mm difference IMO or better feel, it just silencing key return.

I just tested the key travel on my 87U silent and HHKB non-silent boards.



My four month old Realforce 87U Silent and three week old HHKB Pro 2 non-silent.




This is the depth gage used. Measurement unit is millimeters.




The test method was simple. The base of the depth gage sits on the adjacent keys. The plunger is placed in the center of the key being tested and depressed until the key bottoms out.




First test was done on the 87U Silent. You can see it reads exactly 4mm.




Then I tested the HHKB non-silent. You can see it's also exactly 4mm.

Test Results:

The key travel is exactly the same for silent and non-silent Topre switches. There is no difference in key travel between the two. Which means, whatever Topre did to silence the switches, it's not simply a factory mod like we would do. Also note that the silent switches have a purple housing. Non-silent key housings are black. Read here for more info on Topre key types and colors: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

Given the different key switch housing (differentiated by color), and my key travel testing, I'm going to go out on a limb here and conclude that the engineering is different between the two switch types. If they do use some sort of dampening material, they've also changed the switch housing to accommodate it, resulting in identical key travel as their standard switch.

[AKIMbO]

^This guy is awesome!  Thanks macsmasher.

[birthdaymonkey]

I'm about to do a key swap between my black and white Realforces. I've never taken but a few keys from a Topre board before. Are the stabilizers tricky at all? I do not want to break either of my fabulously expensive toys!

[lazerpointer]

Nice test, Macsmasher. Clears up a lot of folks' concerns.

I'm about to do a key swap between my black and white Realforces. I've never taken but a few keys from a Topre board before. Are the stabilizers tricky at all? I do not want to break either of my fabulously expensive toys!

It's kind of like the Cherry stabs. Pull up the sides of the spacebar first, then pull up when the stabs are unhooked. All the other keys you can just pull up.

[Trev]

The HHKB type S has a 3mm travel vs. 4mm reg. model, the sound reduction is on the upstroke. I don't think most would feel a 1mm difference IMO or better feel, it just silencing key return.

...

Test Results:

The key travel is exactly the same for silent and non-silent Topre switches. There is no difference in key travel between the two. Which means, whatever Topre did to silence the switches, it's not simply a factory mod like we would do. Also note that the silent switches have a purple housing. Non-silent key housings are black. Read here for more info on Topre key types and colors: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

Given the different key switch housing (differentiated by color), and my key travel testing, I'm going to go out on a limb here and conclude that the engineering is different between the two switch types. If they do use some sort of dampening material, they've also changed the switch housing to accommodate it, resulting in identical key travel as their standard switch.

Have you guys checked the manufacturer specs?
http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/hhkbpro2_types/feature.html
PFU references the reduced key travel here and in other places (Google Translated):

From 4mm to 3.8mm Professional optimization of the conventional series of keystrokes to strike a balance pressure and depression. Achieve key touch typing nimble and more supple and comfortable, intact.

Comparing the two side-by-side, I choose the Type-S as my favourite because of the reduced key-travel (before I'd even looked up the numbers). Typing feels quite different swapping between the two.

I'd be inclined to trust the manufacturer over an antique analog gauge hovering over some keys.

[hasu]

From spec HHKB Type-S has 3.8mm stroke, not 4mm or 3mm, while Realforce silent model still has 4mm. But I couldn't find spec value of Realforce silent key stroke.
http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/type-s/spec.html#pro2_spec

At promotion event years ago Topre guy told me that they made new mold for Realforce silent model not to lose key stroke with O-ring thickness. Meanwhile, I suspect PFU just added O-ring to existent normal model and lost 0.2mm stroke? They hype this less stroke is due to design for fast typing. Oh, really?
And Type-S is available only from PFU own direct shop. This keeps MSRP without discount.

[Michael]

And Type-S is available only from PFU own direct shop. This keeps MSRP without discount.

What?

[hasu]

I don't know how they got. At least they seem to keep MSRP.
400USD > (315USD=29800JPY)

And Type-S is available only from PFU own direct shop. This keeps MSRP without discount.

What?

[Michael]

They have had them for a very, very long time. Also, they used to be $450 USD.

I don't know how they got. At least they seem to keep MSRP.
400USD > (315USD=29800JPY)

And Type-S is available only from PFU own direct shop. This keeps MSRP without discount.

What?

[emusan]

I don't know how they got. At least they seem to keep MSRP.
400USD > (315USD=29800JPY)

Pretty sure they have to keep at MSRP to keep doing business with PFU, PFU isn't one to give their boards out to just any distributor.

[Macsmasher]

Comparing the two side-by-side, I choose the Type-S as my favourite because of the reduced key-travel (before I'd even looked up the numbers). Typing feels quite different swapping between the two.

I'd be inclined to trust the manufacturer over an antique analog gauge hovering over some keys.

Well, it's not a machinists digital instrument. But accurate enough for my purpose. I also took three measurements per keyboard to ensure consistency.

According to the Topre specs, it looks like the standard keystroke is 4mm and silenced is 3.8mm. For those of you not familiar with Metric, that's 0.00787 inches. The diameter of a human hair is .254mm, or 0.001 inches.

I would respectfully submit sir that the difference you feel is not related to key travel. But if you disagree, you could perform a test of your own. Pluck one of the hairs off your head and find a way to place it under a key. Get back to me with the results.

[birthdaymonkey]

It's kind of like the Cherry stabs. Pull up the sides of the spacebar first, then pull up when the stabs are unhooked. All the other keys you can just pull up.

Thanks! Turns out it was actually much easier than Cherry. There's no metal bar on either of my keyboards - just two anchors on either side that attach to the spacebar - sort of like the regular key stems.

I didn't have time to finish tonight - here's the work in progress. Looks pretty cool with just the alpha keys swapped in.

[Michael]

I don't know how they got. At least they seem to keep MSRP.
400USD > (315USD=29800JPY)

Pretty sure they have to keep at MSRP to keep doing business with PFU, PFU isn't one to give their boards out to just any distributor.

AFAIK, elitekeyboards is the ONLY US distributor.

[Macsmasher]

I didn't have time to finish tonight - here's the work in progress. Looks pretty cool with just the alpha keys swapped in.

(Attachment Link)

That looks great. I've been looking at Topre keycaps, but all the colors are...weird. But that's probably because I'm old and boring. I like the alpha key color in the 10th anniversary edition, but of course they're not available as a keycap set. I'll probably go white as well when / if I replace them. Anyway, it looks really good dood.

[Trev]

Comparing the two side-by-side, I choose the Type-S as my favourite because of the reduced key-travel (before I'd even looked up the numbers). Typing feels quite different swapping between the two.

I'd be inclined to trust the manufacturer over an antique analog gauge hovering over some keys.

Well, it's not a machinists digital instrument. But accurate enough for my purpose. I also took three measurements per keyboard to ensure consistency.

According to the Topre specs, it looks like the standard keystroke is 4mm and silenced is 3.8mm. For those of you not familiar with Metric, that's 0.00787 inches. The diameter of a human hair is .254mm, or 0.001 inches.

I would respectfully submit sir that the difference you feel is not related to key travel. But if you disagree, you could perform a test of your own. Pluck one of the hairs off your head and find a way to place in under a key. Get back to me with the results.

I shave my head, so I'll need to source one from somewhere else. Unsure if hair thickness will be the same, I'll report back.

I agree that there must be other factors contributing to the "feel" of being shorter throw. I'm bottoming out 100% of the time on Type-S HHKB. On regular 45g Topre it's still >90%, but a much softer landing. These qualities are what leads me to believe there's a tiny bit more room at the bottom of the key stroke.

[Schattendolch]

overpriced membrane garbage

go buckling spring if you want a real typing experience

[lazerpointer]

I have come to accept bottoming out. In doing so, I have reduced my "bottoming out" by a low, but still significant percentage..... simply because I'm not thinking about it.

[Michael]

overpriced membrane garbage

go buckling spring if you want a real typing experience

Hi ripster