Need help to buy a keyboard !

[Dakapa]

Hi,

I would really need some advices to buy my self a new keyboard !
So first, I actually have a Razer Arctosa, but I need a better one now, I'm getting really bored with its actuation force ...
I'd rather something 'easier to press' ^^
I begin to think a mech keyboard would be good
I have restrictions (wouldn't have been funny otherwise) :
- the most important : I'm French, so I need AZERTY keyboard 
- a keyboard good for typing + a bit of gaming, as I actually use the Razer Orbweaver to play
- For the switches, I don't understand what's linear, etc... But I would like some with low actuation force...
- Backlighting, which you can change if possible
- Multimedia keys
- Wrist rest
- Not a simple design, but not too complex to...
I think that's it (it isn't too much, right ?  )

To give you an idea, the Tesoro Lobera Supreme or the Tesoro Durandal (Ultimate/eSport) looks perfect to me ! So bad I can't find anywhere to buy them

I hope that you could help me !

Dak'

PS : I don't mod

[limitz]

- the most important : I'm French, so I need AZERTY keyboard 
- a keyboard good for typing + a bit of gaming, as I actually use the Razer Orbweaver to play
- For the switches, I don't understand what's linear, etc... But I would like some with low actuation force...
- Backlighting, which you can change if possible
- Multimedia keys
- Wrist rest
- Not a simple design, but not too complex to...

To give you an idea, the Tesoro Lobera Supreme or the Tesoro Durandal eSport looks perfect to me ! So bad I can't find anywhere to buy them

- Basically you want an ISO keyboard
- Linear switches don't have a tactile feeling from actuation to bottom out. Tactile switches do. And clicky switches are tactile, and make a clicky sound. You probably want either Reds, Clears, or Browns (an awful middle ground between linear and tactile, IMO if you want tactile with not a high actuation, get Clears)
-Noted
-Noted
-I'd recommend supplying your own wristrest. Get the keyboard and wristrest separately.
-Noted

My recommendation is a Ducky Shine4 in ISO. Has a pretty simple design. Decent backlighting options that can be changed. Multimedia keys. Available in Reds and Browns, not sure about Clears.

Either that, or a WASD V2 in ISO. No backlighting. Clean design. Available in Reds, Clears, and Browns.  No multimedia keys though.

There might be some Corsair keyboards as well in ISO with Red/Brown switches. Those usually come with a wristrest.

You could also look at Roccat, but I'm not a big fan of their designs.

[Dakapa]

Hey,

Thanks for the quick answer!
Well, maybe I didn't said it, but well for the Ducky Shine 4, after a little research on amazon, he may be a bit... expensive.
And maybe they have [Ducky Shine4;WASD V2] a too simple design by the way... I mean they look too 'classic' for me
About bottom out, etc.. I don't understand anything about this

Thanks for your time,

Dak'

PS : I know I do have strict criteras

[limitz]

Hey,

Thanks for the quick answer!
Well, maybe I didn't said it, but well for the Ducky Shine 4, after a little research on amazon, he may be a bit... expensive.
And maybe they have [Ducky Shine4;WASD V2] a too simple design by the way... I mean they look too 'classic' for me
About bottom out, etc.. I don't understand anything about this

1. Let's work backwards then. What is your budget?

If Shine 4 is too much, maybe the Corsair K70 Vengeance in MX Red. Multimedia keys..

2. Bottom out literally means the very bottom of the switch. It means when you've depressed a key all the way down. However, the actuating point (when the letter you press actually appears on your monitor), is not at bottom out, most times it's higher than that. IE: You have a switch that has a total of 4mm travel distance. It may actuate at 2mm into the press, but you can travel all the way down and bottom the switch out at 4mm.

[Dakapa]

Alright, the K70 Vengeance looks very good !
Are MX Red making noise ?

Thanks for the bottom out, but I assume it's something that you learn, pressing half of the key ?

Thanks again,

Dak'

[limitz]

Alright, the K70 Vengeance looks very good !
Are MX Red making noise ?

Thanks for the bottom out, but I assume it's something that you learn, pressing half of the key ?

Thanks again,

Dak'

MX Red is a linear switch, so it's pretty quiet.

As for bottom out, there's nothing wrong with bottoming out every keypress. However, if you find that uncomfortable, or don't want to bottom out every keypress. I'd say it's not something you learn, or even change your typing style over. Rather, you find a switch that you naturally don't bottom out on. For example, if you're bottoming out Reds easily, and you find that uncomfortable, then I'd say switch to Blacks. If you're bottoming out reds, and don't mind it... then, stick with Reds.

I bottom out Clears pretty easily, but I don't mind it at all, so I'm not going to change to a different switch.

[Oobly]

First off, the K70 software sucks and the layout is non-standard, but it's decent.

Secondly, it seems you like Razer, but it's not well regarded by most members on this site due to past quality control issues and charging a premium for gimmicky features that don't translate into actual benefits in real use.

That said, the newest Razer Blackwidow may suit you very well. It also has a non-standard layout, though, which matters if you ever want to swap the keycaps (which is a big benefit of owning a Cherry MX compatible keyboard, IMO). But it does meet most of your criteria. It comes with 2 switch options, a "clicky" one (green) like MX Blues and a "silent" one (orange) like MX Browns. They're both quite light switches, so it's up to you whether you'd prefer a loudish clicky board or a quieter board.

Both switch types are "tactile", meaning they have a bump that lets you feel when the switch actuates. Also, the actuation point is quite high up, so you don't have to push the switch all the way to the bottom like you do have to on membrane rubber dome boards like the Arctosa. Here is a relevant thread talking about bottoming out: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68891.0

You don't need to learn to not bottom out at all, but with mechanical boards you don't have to. O-rings (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=KB-000-TL&tool=3) fitted to the keycaps help soften the shock of bottoming out, but some people don't like how they feel. I think they're useful to help prevent the shock of bottoming out, since it's more pronounced on most mechanical boards than on membrane rubber dome boards and you're likely to bottom out a lot in the beginning, and sometimes quite hard if you're used to typing on rubber dome boards, especially since most of them are stiffer than these two Razers.

Most of the other options that you'll find recommended are quite conservative / traditional looking, simply because they are very high quality and have great functionality without gimmicks. I would much rather buy a Ducky or Filco than a Razer, but my criteria for use are probably a bit different to yours (I change my keycaps quite often, modify the switches, etc.).

[azhdar]

Hey fellow frenchman.

- the most important : I'm French, so I need AZERTY keyboard 
- a keyboard good for typing + a bit of gaming, as I actually use the Razer Orbweaver to play
- For the switches, I don't understand what's linear, etc... But I would like some with low actuation force...
- Backlighting, which you can change if possible
- Multimedia keys
- Wrist rest
- Not a simple design, but not too complex to...

Your requirments looks like a Corsair keyboard would fit your needs.
But be advised that :
- Original keycaps are fukin fukin terrible
- The bottom row is non standard so changing terrible keycaps for that row is very hard
- your have to go through a ****-ware to make it work
- looks ugly to me but It's a personnal preference,

The logitech G710+ would be good for your too but it has pretty much all the same problems.

Ducky shine 3/4 is a much better option, you won't have a 'fancy design' but a great stock keyboard.


Traduction because I feel like doing it:

Un clavier Corsair pourrait te convenir,
mais il faut que tu sache que:
- les touches d'origines sont littéralement horriblement dégueulasse
- la rangée inférieure (Ctrl-Alt-Espace,...) n'est pas standard, il est donc très difficile de changer les touches dégueulasses livrées par défaut
- obligation d'installer un logiciel pourrave pour faire fonctionner le clavier,
- très moche à mon goût, mais c'est un avis personnel

T'as aussi le Logitech G710+ qui pourrait te convenir, mais il a tout les mêmes problèmes que le Corsair.

Un ducky Shine 3 ou 4 est un bien meilleur clavier, t'auras pas un clavier qui en jettera mais une base beaucoup plus solide.

[Dakapa]

About bottom out, you [limitz] said it depends on the switches... The problem is that I never used a mech keyboard, so I don't know which switches would fit me..

Yeah I like Razer, but I must say that I never looked any further ... I know it's not well regarded on this site, but their products seem good to me... I mean, I have a Taipan mice, and it's still working very good... The problem is that the only feedbacks are mostly bad because if you enjoy your product, you don't feel to give any feedback, but if something go wrong...
I also have a Kraken Pro, I like it aswell... And a Vespula mouse pad, and I feel very comfortable with it, its wrist rest is nice.
I know Razer is expensive, but I think the quality is good... I'm not a pro but for the user I am it fits me ^^

I searched Razer keyboards, but the BlackWidow Stealth is not available in ISO... And the original switches ('Razer green') are like MX blue, and I'd rather a silent keyboard...
Also, I don't modify keycaps or anything, I just take the original keyboard and use it like it is ^^ Maybe changing keycaps could be an option, but..

- Original keycaps are fukin fukin terrible
- The bottom row is non standard so changing terrible keycaps for that row is very hard
- your have to go through a ****-ware to make it work
- looks ugly to me but It's a personnal preference

What do you mean by 'terrible' ? The feeling ?
You say the bottom row is non standard, for all the pics I've seen it looked classic...
I heard about Corsair's software, but it's not a problem for me, I can still learn how to use it

Any way, thanks for the advices !
I think I will go for the K70... Is the only difference between the K70 and the K70 RGB the backlighting ??

Thank you all

Dak'

[azhdar]

Razer also have the orange switch which are non clicky. You should be able to find them in Azerty.


They are very thin ABS keycaps that will get greasy.
The modifiers (Ctrl,Win,Alt ) are all of the same size on a standard bottom row. 'Gaming' brand do smaller window key for larger Ctrl and Alt.
About the software, I dislike when a keyboard isn't plug an play, and adding a software to make the keyboard work seems silly to me, also beside playing with it for the first week, you'll never use it.

Yeah only difference is RGB.

We just advice you against Razer & Corsair because if you ever want to go further into the hobby, you'll realize the flaws of those keyboards.

[limitz]

About bottom out, you [limitz] said it depends on the switches... The problem is that I never used a mech keyboard, so I don't know which switches would fit me..
Maybe changing keycaps could be an option, but..

- Original keycaps are fukin fukin terrible
- The bottom row is non standard so changing terrible keycaps for that row is very hard
- your have to go through a ****-ware to make it work
- looks ugly to me but It's a personnal preference

What do you mean by 'terrible' ? The feeling ?
You say the bottom row is non standard, for all the pics I've seen it looked classic...
I heard about Corsair's software, but it's not a problem for me, I can still learn how to use it

Any way, thanks for the advices !
I think I will go for the K70... Is the only difference between the K70 and the K70 RGB the backlighting ??

Thank you all

Dak'

With bottom out, it's really not a big deal. Like I said, I bottom out essentially every key, but I don't mind it all.

This is a flow diagram:

1. You bottom out and you don't like it. Go to 2.

2. You don't want to bottom out anymore. Solution: Get a heavier switch.

2a. You don't like the feeling of bottoming out, and you don't want to spend money on a new keyboard. Solution: Get a pack of O-Rings from WASDKeyboards for ~$10 and place it around each keycap stem (very easy mod, once you pull out a keycap you'll know what I mean).

---

By terrible, he probably means that the keycaps have thin walls. I wouldn't say they're "fukin fukin terrible", they're just the average thickness that comes out of the factory, which is relatively thin compared to the aftermarket. A huge factor in keycap quality is how thick the keycap is. Gold standard is a company known as GMK, who make really thick keycaps. However, each GMK keycap set is ~$120, so you definitely pay for quality.

The bottom row of the K70 is indeed non-standard, what that means is that the sizes of each key does not conform to traditional sizing, which 99% of aftermarket keycaps are designed around. Assume that the size of each of the alpha keys (AZERTY) is 1u. Standard bottom row sizing is:

Ctrl - 1.25u ; GUI Key - 1.25u ; Alt - 1.25u ; Spacebar - 6.25u ; Alt - 1.25u ; Fn - 1.25u ; Menu - 1.25u ; Ctrl - 1.25u

In K70's case, I believe it is:

Ctrl - 1.5u ; GUI Key - 1u ; Alt - 1.5u ; Spacebar - 6u ; Alt - 1.5u ; Fn - 1u ; Menu - 1u ; Ctrl - 1.5u

This means that if you ever want to buy aftermarket keycaps (~$40-120), you will not be able to do so with the K70. It doesn't seem like that you do, but if you choose to do so, finding a 6u spacebar will not be easy.

Way I see it, if you don't think you'll ever buy new keycaps, and will use this keyboard for a while. Just get the K70. If you think you'll ever get aftermarket keycaps, then you probably just need to bite the bullet and get a Shine 4.

[ideus]

There is no advice yet, but a question: Why you should have to keep using a dedicated layout for French?


Having a particular set of language-specific set of characters is useful, but to use an ANSI US standard layout, with international English setting is also a good solution, that has the advantage to give the user the freedom to customize a mechanical board with many alternate sets.


Of course, if you buy a keyboard to use it in its stock form the previous argument is irrelevant.


I write in English and Spanish, and in Portuguese occasionally, and I have been using the ANSI US layout for many years with no issue at all. Otherwise, I had not enjoyed customizing my keyboard at all; I have not seen any Spanish keycap set since I am a GH member, that is 3 years now.

[Dakapa]

Razer also have the orange switch which are non clicky. You should be able to find them in Azerty.

They are very thin ABS keycaps that will get greasy.
The modifiers (Ctrl,Win,Alt ) are all of the same size on a standard bottom row. 'Gaming' brand do smaller window key for larger Ctrl and Alt.
About the software, I dislike when a keyboard isn't plug an play, and adding a software to make the keyboard work seems silly to me, also beside playing with it for the first week, you'll never use it.

Yeah only difference is RGB.

We just advice you against Razer & Corsair because if you ever want to go further into the hobby, you'll realize the flaws of those keyboards.

I know about the orange switch, but unfortunately, keyboards with a French layout aren't available. My Orbweaver does have the orange switches.
About the ABS, well, I'm not searching for the best keycaps, I just want a keyboard to play and to type ^^
For the software, I don't care, if I need one I just install it.

I don't want 'to go further into the hobby' or not now at least

With bottom out, it's really not a big deal. Like I said, I bottom out essentially every key, but I don't mind it all.

This is a flow diagram:

1. You bottom out and you don't like it. Go to 2.

2. You don't want to bottom out anymore. Solution: Get a heavier switch.

2a. You don't like the feeling of bottoming out, and you don't want to spend money on a new keyboard. Solution: Get a pack of O-Rings from WASDKeyboards for ~$10 and place it around each keycap stem (very easy mod, once you pull out a keycap you'll know what I mean).

---

By terrible, he probably means that the keycaps have thin walls. I wouldn't say they're "fukin fukin terrible", they're just the average thickness that comes out of the factory, which is relatively thin compared to the aftermarket. A huge factor in keycap quality is how thick the keycap is. Gold standard is a company known as GMK, who make really thick keycaps. However, each GMK keycap set is ~$120, so you definitely pay for quality.

The bottom row of the K70 is indeed non-standard, what that means is that the sizes of each key does not conform to traditional sizing, which 99% of aftermarket keycaps are designed around. Assume that the size of each of the alpha keys (AZERTY) is 1u. Standard bottom row sizing is:

Ctrl - 1.25u ; GUI Key - 1.25u ; Alt - 1.25u ; Spacebar - 6.25u ; Alt - 1.25u ; Fn - 1.25u ; Menu - 1.25u ; Ctrl - 1.25u

In K70's case, I believe it is:

Ctrl - 1.5u ; GUI Key - 1u ; Alt - 1.5u ; Spacebar - 6u ; Alt - 1.5u ; Fn - 1u ; Menu - 1u ; Ctrl - 1.5u

This means that if you ever want to buy aftermarket keycaps (~$40-120), you will not be able to do so with the K70. It doesn't seem like that you do, but if you choose to do so, finding a 6u spacebar will not be easy.

Way I see it, if you don't think you'll ever buy new keycaps, and will use this keyboard for a while. Just get the K70. If you think you'll ever get aftermarket keycaps, then you probably just need to bite the bullet and get a Shine 4.

Ok got it for the bottom out

Are thin walls for keycaps really that bad ? I'm not searching for the best as I said...
About keys' size, as I would never change them, it's not a problem

There is no advice yet, but a question: Why you should have to keep using a dedicated layout for French?


Having a particular set of language-specific set of characters is useful, but to use an ANSI US standard layout, with international English setting is also a good solution, that has the advantage to give the user the freedom to customize a mechanical board with many alternate sets.


Of course, if you buy a keyboard to use it in its stock form the previous argument is irrelevant.


I write in English and Spanish, and in Portuguese occasionally, and I have been using the ANSI US layout for many years with no issue at all. Otherwise, I had not enjoyed customizing my keyboard at all; I have not seen any Spanish keycap set since I am a GH member, that is 3 years now.

Well I actually rather using a French layout because... I'm French !
I need keys such as é, à, è, etc...
Again, I'm not planning to change keycaps, so it doesn't matter



Thank again and again !
I'm really thinking to buy the K70, maybe the RGB one ...
It seems that the only thing 'wrong' with this keyboard is the fact that you can't change keycaps that easy, which I don't care about

Thanks !

Dak'

[Oobly]

Pity about the Stealth not being AZERTY ISO...


I have also switched from ISO (UK and Fin) to ANSI (after 30 years of typing on ISO!) and find it easier to use, but it comes down to personal preference and whether you use the keys next to left shift and enter a lot or not. ISO does have one extra physical key than ANSI, too.

AFAIK, the only difference between them (K70 boards) is the RGB switches and LED's. I have read that the software for the backlighting is also hard to use, but I guess all the software for the K70 range is just not great. You can of course use it without installing the software, but then you don't get to control the pretty lights

The bottom row has a 6.5x size spacebar which is 0.25x bigger than normal.
In fact the normal bottom row is: 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 6.25, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25.
OR some WinKeyLess configurations: 1.5, 1, 1.5, 7, 1.5, 1, 1.5
K70 is: 1.5, 1, 1.25, 6.5, 1.25, 1, 1, 1.5.

If you don't mind keeping the stock spacebar you can make some aftermarket sets fit by using the standard set, a winkeyless set and an extra 1x bottom row key, but if the stock keycaps don't bother you then no worries.

Seems the K70 and K70 RGB would actually fit all your criteria, then

[Dakapa]

Pity about the Stealth not being AZERTY ISO...


I have also switched from ISO (UK and Fin) to ANSI (after 30 years of typing on ISO!) and find it easier to use, but it comes down to personal preference and whether you use the keys next to left shift and enter a lot or not. ISO does have one extra physical key than ANSI, too.

AFAIK, the only difference between them (K70 boards) is the RGB switches and LED's. I have read that the software for the backlighting is also hard to use, but I guess all the software for the K70 range is just not great. You can of course use it without installing the software, but then you don't get to control the pretty lights

The bottom row has a 6.5x size spacebar which is 0.25x bigger than normal.
In fact the normal bottom row is: 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 6.25, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25.
OR some WinKeyLess configurations: 1.5, 1, 1.5, 7, 1.5, 1, 1.5
K70 is: 1.5, 1, 1.25, 6.5, 1.25, 1, 1, 1.5.

If you don't mind keeping the stock spacebar you can make some aftermarket sets fit by using the standard set, a winkeyless set and an extra 1x bottom row key, but if the stock keycaps don't bother you then no worries.

Seems the K70 and K70 RGB would actually fit all your criteria, then

What about the RGB switches ?
I don't care for the sofware, I can learn how to use it, it's not a problem !

Yeah got it for keycaps, can't say I haven't been warned, and it would be my problem
Yes looks like K70s would be good !

Dak'

[limitz]

What about the RGB switches ?
I don't care for the sofware, I can learn how to use it, it's not a problem !

Dak'

RGB switches are essentially the same as regular switches, just with a see through housing, and an in-switch 3 color LED.

You can still get a MX Red w/ the RGB switch.

[Oobly]

The RGB switches are the same as the normal ones, but they have a clear casing which allows them to mount RGB LED's to the circuit board and allows the light to shine up through the switch casing. I have read that they stopped making Blues in RGB, though, but the other types (including Reds and Browns) should continue to be available.

They can look really nice when you set up a full set of colour profiles for different games, etc

[Dakapa]

What about the RGB switches ?
I don't care for the sofware, I can learn how to use it, it's not a problem !

Dak'

RGB switches are essentially the same as regular switches, just with a see through housing, and an in-switch 3 color LED.

You can still get a MX Red w/ the RGB switch.

The RGB switches are the same as the normal ones, but they have a clear casing which allows them to mount RGB LED's to the circuit board and allows the light to shine up through the switch casing. I have read that they stopped making Blues in RGB, though, but the other types (including Reds and Browns) should continue to be available.

They can look really nice when you set up a full set of colour profiles for different games, etc

Ok, they have no differences that you can 'feel' right ?

Dak'

[Oobly]

Not that I'm aware of, they should feel just the same.

[Dakapa]

Ok well it's good then

Dak'