HuB - New Keycap Profile | Kickstarter Launch | From TheVanKeyboards

[Oblotzky]

Fine, I'll keep it on topic:

Why have requests for price breakdown been ignored?

I've asked twice since I was considering supporting, but the fact it's been ignored makes it obvious a large chunk is not going to be used as understood.

I am also genuinely curious about this. What makes me wonder the most is, you can get 12 sets for 300$, that's 25$ per set. I can't imagine how this money is able to fund brand new tooling, which as far as I know costs upwards of thousands of dollars per new key mold (and evan said there are 30 of those to be made), the ~140+ legend plates, and at the same time be enough to also produce the actual keyset, including sorting (and shipping?). Are GMK and SP overpriced? Maybe, they surely don't work for the bare minimum seeing they have no real competition. But even JTK charges double of that, and they already have the tooling set up, a company based in China which we know is often connected with cheap labor, while HuB is made in America if I got that right.

[chuckdee]

He could possibly come up with a general breakdown of percentages, but I think that expecting him to reveal actual numbers is a little bit unrealistic.  That's pretty proprietary information.

[xondat]

He could possibly come up with a general breakdown of percentages, but I think that expecting him to reveal actual numbers is a little bit unrealistic.

Percentages would be acceptable in my eyes.

[Puddsy]

Would also like to see a price breakdown. I know Evan said 80% tooling 20% production, but I don't think that's clear enough for me.

[joey]

Also why try buy machines (along with room / expertise etc..) right away? Why not make the tooling/molds first and go to a company that can help produce them?

[Oblotzky]

Also why try buy machines (along with room / expertise etc..) right away? Why not make the tooling/molds first and go to a company that can help produce them?

I believe that is what they are doing. https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/85gtba/hub_update_visit_to_the_factory_3152018/

Using the machines and workers of a existing company, but have to pay for the new key molds and stuff.

[chuckdee]

Also why try buy machines (along with room / expertise etc..) right away? Why not make the tooling/molds first and go to a company that can help produce them?

They are working with a company.  From an answer earlier in the thread:

I don't fully understand why so few questions are being asked in this thread, it's a little worrying to me:

 At $50 roughly per set and a $500k goal, based on the Kickstarter page and this thread it sounds like you're planning to purchase and set up an injection molding manufacuring space, manufacture molds, create around 9,000-10,000 sets of 150+ caps each in 12 different colorways and QC them in 5 months.

- Keeping manufacturing in the US, does that mean you're using an existing manufacturer or creating your own? I've heard you might be purchasing injection molding machines?
- If you're working with an existing manufacturer, who? How will you oversee their QC process?
- If not, wow so many questions.
- What experince running logistics on such a massive quantity of parts do you have? Running GBs for keyboards is quite different, we're literally talking multiple orders of magnitude difference in numbers of parts. It would be good to know how many people you have staffed to help with this stuff, or if a manufacturer will be doing all of the sorting, QC'ing, replacing parts, and shipping.
- Have the molds been designed and/or tested already? Past projects here that have included designing injection molds have taken a significant amount of time troubleshooting minutae related to the molds themselves, is iterating on them in your timeline?

You're undertaking quite a lot, just curious how deep you're going. Look at other people who have manufactured stuff here both with and without the help of existing manufacturers, it's not trivial. Yet there's tons of discussion about mixing and matching colorways and not much about where $500,000 is going.

Hi,

Thanks for your questions. The company we are working with has done injection molding through the years but at present primarily focuses on tooling molds for injection molding. For this project machinery will be purchased along with molds.

The way they are tooling this project will remove nearly all manual labor. This is a big reason why we can produce in the states. There is an automated qc process that they have developed combined with manual checks.

There has been a specification process to ensure the models will be molded accurately as we expect. I have another meeting in this regard just to discuss the legends. All of this before the Kickstarter is even over. I’ve been discussing this project with them for at least 6 months already.

I have a number of people on standby to help with fulfillment, some of which have factory experience production and packing thousands of parts per shift. Because of our manufacturing process there will be almost no sorting.

I’m on my phone and your post was lengthy so I hope I haven’t left anything out.

TLDR I’m working with expert tooling company that will run molding for me. New machine, new molds. I’ve been working directly with this company for over 6 months already.

It seems that they are doing something similar as to what MassDrop did with MT3, i.e. bootstrapping a company with the experience to be able to expand into this market.

[joey]

They are working with a company.  From an answer earlier in the thread:

Thanks for the links (and Oblotzky), seems to be some confusion about that point!

[amnesia0287]

Fine, I'll keep it on topic:

Why have requests for price breakdown been ignored?

I've asked twice since I was considering supporting, but the fact it's been ignored makes it obvious a large chunk is not going to be used as understood.

Would definitely make it less sketchy if we had one.

[superdoedoe]

Fine, I'll keep it on topic:

Why have requests for price breakdown been ignored?

I've asked twice since I was considering supporting, but the fact it's been ignored makes it obvious a large chunk is not going to be used as understood.

Pls no forgetti about this.

[azachhh]

I mean, this might not be the intent, but it seems like drama is coming here because Evan expressed an opinion in the GMK Necro GB.  It was just an opinion, based on the support, which I think is totally valid.  But people there seemed not to think so, and thought he was crapping all over the group buy, including you.  Maybe take the higher road?

I was involved in the Necro thread - simply thought the comment was wrong place/wrong time.
I still plan to support both Necro & HUB.
I want to see everyone win!! 

[PRkeys]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

[frostbyte-gaming]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

[evangs]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

It is going to the tooling. Molds and injection machines

[megaforce]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

It is going to the tooling. Molds and injection machines

[Puddsy]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

The I:C guys have already proven that they can deliver a kickstarter on time and on budget.

[chuckdee]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

It is going to the tooling. Molds and injection machines

I think what people are wanting to see is what percentage is going to that, what percentage to distribution/shipping/other logistics, what percentage to the company doing the actual work, what percentage of extra do you have to account for unknowns.  Not necessarily exact numbers, but enough to alleviate the fear that the number presented was planned and is indeed enough to cover all eventualities. 

I've seen too many projects like this fail because of underestimation, so I can understand concerns.  I just received the product from a kickstarter I backed 4 years ago, and it was delayed partially due to manufacturing (the first run wasn't good, so they had to commission a second), but also due to the increase in postage in the time it took to produce.  What mitigation strategies do you have monetarily.  It would give people a better feeling that they would receive a return on their money.

[chuckdee]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

The I:C guys have already proven that they can deliver a kickstarter on time and on budget.

They hadn't before this second round of Whitefox, and ran into problems because of their inexperience in many areas that Massdrop covered for them before.  It's therefore a valid comparison.

[xondat]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

It is going to the tooling. Molds and injection machines

Christ.

Who owns the tooling, molds, and injection machines?

[evangs]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

It is going to the tooling. Molds and injection machines

Christ.

Who owns the tooling, molds, and injection machines?

we will.

[xondat]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

It is going to the tooling. Molds and injection machines

Christ.

Who owns the tooling, molds, and injection machines?

we will.

So the community is paying for you to own the molds, and only you have control over them?

Why not get a loan from a bank?

[chuckdee]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

It is going to the tooling. Molds and injection machines

Christ.

Who owns the tooling, molds, and injection machines?

They are buying them?  With the money?

From the kickstarter:

Kickstarter funding will allow us to assert the cost of tooling the molds for a keyset

And again:

The funding from this campaign addresses tooling, materials, production, packaging, storage, and shipping.

So one would assume that they own them, sort of like MT3.  A lot of that is based on the legalese being right, though...

[PRkeys]

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

It is all about perspective. People are seeing that large sum from the start and wondering why they are trying to raise that much.

Take as an example the latest GMK Laser drop from MiTO. If you calculate using their last update on orders it adds up to over $310,000 to produce 1,500+ sets and the related options. Their final amount was probably much higher and they are only going to GMK to produce their set with the existing tooling.

HuB will not only have to create the new tooling plus whatever cut the manufacturing partners are taking, but at a minimum will have to produce 10,000 sets if everyone were buying just one. Don't forget they are also offering Minivan keyboards in the options. With the current pledge so far they already have to produce 2,300 sets and 121 Minivan keyboards.

The new tooling and approach is the reason they can produce them that cheap in such high quantities.

[chuckdee]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Yes that is also true however they aren't asking for 500, 000$ that is quite a bit of money and seeing as he can sell sets ranging from 25$ per set to 50$ per set where is all this money going.

It is going to the tooling. Molds and injection machines

Christ.

Who owns the tooling, molds, and injection machines?

we will.

So the community is paying for you to own the molds, and only you have control over them?

Why not get a loan from a bank?

Couldn't this be said of any Kickstarter?

[KaosJ]

So the community is paying for you to own the molds, and only you have control over them?

Why not get a loan from a bank?

"Hey Bank can you give me half a million dollars, thx appreciated"   

I don't remember anyone bringing up all this with MT3 /dev/tty

[PRkeys]

So the community is paying for you to own the molds, and only you have control over them?

Why not get a loan from a bank?

That is what kickstarter is about. It is an alternative funding model to banks and VCs.  You help fund new businesses and ideas in exchange for their product.

Banks don't just give money to anyone that comes asking. You need to already have money or assets before they give you more.

[Koobaczech]

Yo Xondat, relax lol. You aren't supporting him, you are just trying to expose him. The sad truth of the matter is that if a large amount of money gets misused, its none of your business. If he doesn't answer you back, oh well. He doesn't have to.

The hard facts are that Evan has been a long standing community member selling products and running GB's way before a lot of us, including yourself. There are way more Minivans, roadkits, caravans, keysets, wrist rests and proxied products from him out there than your X60's and 268's and my Pearls combined. He's partnered with many people to make a lot of other stuff as well, and has always delivered on time and without any scandals. He has the experience and knowledge to sell stuff.

We can only hope that his excellent track record accompanies him with HUB. And If he has set a limit of 500k, its come from planning, number crunching and careful consideration. You don't have to support him if you are scared of his commitment or use of your money, and you are hurting this projects process by instilling doubt and worry into everyone who wants to see it be made a reality.

Give Evan some time to breakdown the pricing of it all and stop acting like a child please. We would all love more than anything to know where our money is going, but the world doesn't work that way.

[KaosJ]

Yo Xondat, relax lol. You aren't supporting him, you are just trying to expose him. The sad truth of the matter is that if a large amount of money gets misused, its none of your business. If he doesn't answer you back, oh well. He doesn't have to.

The hard facts are that Evan has been a long standing community member selling products and running GB's way before a lot of us, including yourself. There are way more Minivans, roadkits, caravans, keysets, wrist rests and proxied products from him out there than your X60's and 268's and my Pearls combined. He's partnered with many people to make a lot of other stuff as well, and has always delivered on time and without any scandals. He has the experience and knowledge to sell stuff.

We can only hope that his excellent track record accompanies him with HUB. And If he has set a limit of 500k, its come from planning, number crunching and careful consideration. You don't have to support him if you are scared of his commitment or use of your money, and you are hurting this projects process by instilling doubt and worry into everyone who wants to see it be made a reality.

Give Evan some time to breakdown the pricing of it all and stop acting like a child please. We would all love more than anything to know where our money is going, but the world doesn't work that way.

Finally 🔥

[xondat]

Yo Xondat, relax lol. You aren't supporting him, you are just trying to expose him. The sad truth of the matter is that if a large amount of money gets misused, its none of your business. If he doesn't answer you back, oh well. He doesn't have to.

...stop acting like a child please.

Removed parts that I agree with.

I'm as chill as you Koob! But no need to say I'm acting like a child. You know better than that mate.

Unfortunately, I'm not trying to "expose" him, I want to support this, but it's incredibly shady.

I think as people are giving him money, they're investing in him. I would debate that investors are owed information on where their money goes.

That's my whole point, but he simply doesn't care.

GL for the further 48 days.

[Koobaczech]

Evan does care a lot. Hes been a long standing member, and the amount of work hes put into this through setting up a kickstarter, marketing, talks with people and all that makes it his baby. Money matters are very personal things. Everyone's now calling him shady and all this stuff, and its sad and hurtful to see the community attack one of its old members with an ambitious project over lack of monetary details. And investments are risky. But we are investing not just in Evan, we are investing in products for this community, for ourselves. Lets just try to be supportive and patient. I'll pm Evan and ask him to ease some of the tensions over this. I definitely don't like the idea of someone taking everyone's money as personal gain, but that's not what I think is happening here. No hard feelings towards anyone please!

[amnesia0287]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Pretty much any other kickstarter would be about just making molds and contracting someone to produce the product being sold. This is different because it is funding not just the molds  but the  actual manufacturing equipment as well. This brings increased costs and increased liability and so many people, myself included, think this should also bring increased transparency.

It's great to imagine that for $400k evan is just buying an easy bake oven for keycaps, but what I know of plastic manufacturing, it's not quite that simple. It's also not as if it's just 1 machine.

What's the plan if setting up the manufacturing costs MORE than $500k? What is the amount of funds set aside for unplanned issues? How much for test batches? how much on new shop space to store everything? etc.

I for one like the idea of more kep manufacturers, but I'm not really sure why we should just fund evan without more info.

[Acereconkeys]

I don't understand why they have to provide a detailed break down of their costs. Can't find any other kickstarter that has that. Don't see anyone asking the I:C guys how they are producing their kira boards at $180 each or Matt3o how much he is making from his new sets. Is not like they are running some non-for-profit organization that we can all audit.

I am signing up to receive x number of sets at y number of dollars each and that is what I expect in the end. At least this is coming from someone who has an established reputation in this space rather that the usual unknown teams behind kickstarters, so the risk is much lower.

Pretty much any other kickstarter would be about just making molds and contracting someone to produce the product being sold. This is different because it is funding not just the molds  but the  actual manufacturing equipment as well. This brings increased costs and increased liability and so many people, myself included, think this should also bring increased transparency.

It's great to imagine that for $400k evan is just buying an easy bake oven for keycaps, but what I know of plastic manufacturing, it's not quite that simple. It's also not as if it's just 1 machine.

What's the plan if setting up the manufacturing costs MORE than $500k? What is the amount of funds set aside for unplanned issues? How much for test batches? how much on new shop space to store everything? etc.

I for one like the idea of more kep manufacturers, but I'm not really sure why we should just fund evan without more info.

Couldn't have said it better. I appreciate you keeping it civil.

[frostbyte-gaming]

So the community is paying for you to own the molds, and only you have control over them?

Why not get a loan from a bank?

"Hey Bank can you give me half a million dollars, thx appreciated"   

I don't remember anyone bringing up all this with MT3 /dev/tty

The issue with comparing it to MT3 is that no offense but Massdrop is a much larger company then evan and so there is a much higher chance that if anything didn't go according to plan we would be able to cancel our orders and get refunds.

And if you do wish to compare them the initial run of MT3 did not have an initial investment of 500, 000$ but instead was run like your typical keycap group buy with a much much smaller moq and investment needed.

Now I don't doubt evan will do everything in his power to make this a reality I am just saying that with such a large investment, that we don't normally even see from bigger companies that have the financials to back up any mishaps that may occur, that it would be nice to have some transparency to put some peoples minds at ease.

[KaosJ]

The issue with comparing it to MT3 is that no offense but Massdrop is a much larger company then evan and so there is a much higher chance that if anything didn't go according to plan we would be able to cancel our orders and get refunds.

There is more risk than Massdrop of course, but most of the people are not criticizing the risk but their profit and breakdown and who owns the molds/machines (lol)

And if you do wish to compare them the initial run of MT3 did not have an initial investment of 500, 000$ but instead was run like your typical keycap group buy with a much much smaller moq and investment needed.

Right but DEV is a set made in China with a (really bad) Dye-sub made always in China. That's doubleshot which brings up the cost a lot and is made in US afaik. 

If you do some math, that kit should have made at least $100k and they also own all the molds. Also they probably didn't had to buy some base tools/machines for making these caps, excepts making the molds. 

[elfick]

The issue with comparing it to MT3 is that no offense but Massdrop is a much larger company then evan and so there is a much higher chance that if anything didn't go according to plan we would be able to cancel our orders and get refunds.

And if you do wish to compare them the initial run of MT3 did not have an initial investment of 500, 000$ but instead was run like your typical keycap group buy with a much much smaller moq and investment needed.

Now I don't doubt evan will do everything in his power to make this a reality I am just saying that with such a large investment, that we don't normally even see from bigger companies that have the financials to back up any mishaps that may occur, that it would be nice to have some transparency to put some peoples minds at ease.

No flame, but I'm curious what makes you think Massdrop is a much larger company? (or the implication that Evan is working alone)
I get the impression that Massdrop is a dozen to a score of peeps. I'm fairly certain they farm out their logistics (warehouse/packing/shipping).

[chuckdee]

I think as people are giving him money, they're investing in him. I would debate that investors are owed information on where their money goes.

You might think that, but the SEC wouldn't agree with you.  You're purchasing a product, and paying for it to be made, which is defined as consumption.  There's no investment involved in the classic sense, other than an emotional investment in receiving your product.

If you are really interested in relevant info, I can PM it to you as I was quite interested in how the SEC viewed this for another reason, and did research into it, but the short of it is summed up in this statement from the document sourced: https://www.sec.gov/info/smallbus/acsec/bradford_crowdfunding.pdf

Crowdfunding offerings of the donation, reward, and pre-purchase type clearly do not involve securities for purposes of federal law.

The Supreme Court has' drawn a clear distinction between investment and consumption.

No flame, but I'm curious what makes you think Massdrop is a much larger company? (or the implication that Evan is working alone)
I get the impression that Massdrop is a dozen to a score of peeps. I'm fairly certain they farm out their logistics (warehouse/packing/shipping).

Their senior leadership is 8 people.  They also have 6 locations listed in their company profile, and the CEO has a salary in excess of 200k.  They have outstanding investments in the range of $48 million, and revenues in the range of $15 million.  While I have found no direct information to be released in regards to number of employees, this publicly available information implies the size of the organization.

[Parva Ovis]

The issue with comparing it to MT3 is that no offense but Massdrop is a much larger company then evan and so there is a much higher chance that if anything didn't go according to plan we would be able to cancel our orders and get refunds.

And if you do wish to compare them the initial run of MT3 did not have an initial investment of 500, 000$ but instead was run like your typical keycap group buy with a much much smaller moq and investment needed.

Now I don't doubt evan will do everything in his power to make this a reality I am just saying that with such a large investment, that we don't normally even see from bigger companies that have the financials to back up any mishaps that may occur, that it would be nice to have some transparency to put some peoples minds at ease.

No flame, but I'm curious what makes you think Massdrop is a much larger company? (or the implication that Evan is working alone)
I get the impression that Massdrop is a dozen to a score of peeps. I'm fairly certain they farm out their logistics (warehouse/packing/shipping).

Massdrop ... employs approximately 70 people at this single location.

[afrokobe]

Evan does care a lot. Hes been a long standing member, and the amount of work hes put into this through setting up a kickstarter, marketing, talks with people and all that makes it his baby. Money matters are very personal things. Everyone's now calling him shady and all this stuff, and its sad and hurtful to see the community attack one of its old members with an ambitious project over lack of monetary details. And investments are risky. But we are investing not just in Evan, we are investing in products for this community, for ourselves. Lets just try to be supportive and patient. I'll pm Evan and ask him to ease some of the tensions over this. I definitely don't like the idea of someone taking everyone's money as personal gain, but that's not what I think is happening here. No hard feelings towards anyone please!

you argue the point that we are investing in Evan, yet who in their right minds would enter into an investment without any background information or without any due diligence. 

We're not asking for the most in depth business plan that outlines every single dollar spent, but it would be nice to give people a generalized plan of where the money is going.

You don't go to banks, you don't go to vcs, or you don't other investors and ask them to loan you money without sufficient explanation.  You go through a public forum asking for money, I would hope you have sufficient information to back up what you are going to do with the money.

[clasicks]

I know this has taken a different path...


But have the OG designers for these keysets... sorry "inspirations" been contacted in an way?

Thats all I cared about, seems like it took one comment to topple the wall of complaints.

[KaosJ]

I know this has taken a different path...


But have the OG designers for these keysets... sorry "inspirations" been contacted in an way?

Thats all I cared about, seems like it took one comment to topple the wall of complaints.

They didn't made novelties of these sets, neither the same exact combinations of colors and no one owns colors my dude.

Also, yeah would be cool to design sets nowdays without making similar colors, it would be:

• Yellow on Yellow
• Diarrhea brown on Purple
• Cyan on red
• Orange on Trasparent

IC for these colors asap, stay tuned. 

[clasicks]

I know this has taken a different path...


But have the OG designers for these keysets... sorry "inspirations" been contacted in an way?

Thats all I cared about, seems like it took one comment to topple the wall of complaints.

They didn't made novelties of these sets, neither the same exact combinations of colors and no one owns colors my dude.

Also, yeah would be cool to design sets nowdays without making similar colors, it would be:

• Yellow on Yellow
• Diarrhea brown on Purple
• Cyan on red
• Orange on Trasparent

.....

[frostbyte-gaming]

I know this has taken a different path...


But have the OG designers for these keysets... sorry "inspirations" been contacted in an way?

Thats all I cared about, seems like it took one comment to topple the wall of complaints.

They didn't made novelties of these sets, neither the same exact combinations of colors and no one owns colors my dude.

Also, yeah would be cool to design sets nowdays without making similar colors, it would be:

• Yellow on Yellow
• Diarrhea brown on Purple
• Cyan on red
• Orange on Trasparent

IC for these colors asap, stay tuned.

I think the main issue some people may have with inspiring from other colorways is the fact that you are reusing well known keycap set names even though they may be completely different colors then what the name implies. I don't really care personally it's just colors in the end just thought I'd put my consensus from what I've heard.

[KaosJ]

I think the main issue some people may have with inspiring from other colorways is the fact that you are reusing well known keycap set names even though they may be completely different colors then what the name implies. I don't really care personally it's just colors in the end just thought I'd put my consensus from what I've heard.

Gotcha but i see just 3 sets doing it: Miami, Skidata and Royal and just the last one is really close to the OG. 

[clasicks]

I think the main issue some people may have with inspiring from other colorways is the fact that you are reusing well known keycap set names even though they may be completely different colors then what the name implies. I don't really care personally it's just colors in the end just thought I'd put my consensus from what I've heard.

Gotcha but i see just 3 sets doing it: Miami, Skidata and Royal and just the last one is really close to the OG.

I could care less about the names. KaosJ are you part of this project? I would assume Evan would have some respect for the designers of the colorways being copied.

[KaosJ]

I think the main issue some people may have with inspiring from other colorways is the fact that you are reusing well known keycap set names even though they may be completely different colors then what the name implies. I don't really care personally it's just colors in the end just thought I'd put my consensus from what I've heard.

Gotcha but i see just 3 sets doing it: Miami, Skidata and Royal and just the last one is really close to the OG.

I could care less about the names. KaosJ are you part of this project? I would assume Evan would have some respect for the designers of the colorways being copied.

Nha i'm just laughing at the **** you guys are throwing on this.  I'm just IN this project meaning i joined this project like other 678 people did.   
The only designer he should have contacted in this matter is Donut since Royal is the only set with a similar name and a really similar set (not exactly the same tho). 

[clasicks]

I think the main issue some people may have with inspiring from other colorways is the fact that you are reusing well known keycap set names even though they may be completely different colors then what the name implies. I don't really care personally it's just colors in the end just thought I'd put my consensus from what I've heard.

Gotcha but i see just 3 sets doing it: Miami, Skidata and Royal and just the last one is really close to the OG.

I could care less about the names. KaosJ are you part of this project? I would assume Evan would have some respect for the designers of the colorways being copied.

Nha i'm just laughing at the **** you guys are throwing on this.  I'm just IN this project meaning i joined this project like other 678 people did.   
The only designer he should have contacted in this matter is Donut for Royal since is the only set with the same name and a really similar set (not exactly the same tho).

Are we looking at the same gallery?

https://thevankeyboards.com/pages/hub_gallery


Donut didnt create RA ffs.

im out of this garbage.

[elfick]

Their senior leadership is 8 people.  They also have 6 locations listed in their company profile, and the CEO has a salary in excess of 200k.  They have outstanding investments in the range of $48 million, and revenues in the range of $15 million.  While I have found no direct information to be released in regards to number of employees, this publicly available information implies the size of the organization.

Heh... That makes me respect them even less as they have absolutely no excuse for that horrible checkout system.

[T0mb3ry]

I think the main issue some people may have with inspiring from other colorways is the fact that you are reusing well known keycap set names even though they may be completely different colors then what the name implies. I don't really care personally it's just colors in the end just thought I'd put my consensus from what I've heard.

Gotcha but i see just 3 sets doing it: Miami, Skidata and Royal and just the last one is really close to the OG.

I could care less about the names. KaosJ are you part of this project? I would assume Evan would have some respect for the designers of the colorways being copied.

Nha i'm just laughing at the **** you guys are throwing on this.  I'm just IN this project meaning i joined this project like other 678 people did.   
The only designer he should have contacted in this matter is Donut since Royal is the only set with a similar name and a really similar set (not exactly the same tho).

And then he promotes hub like this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8b4oay/buying_the_pulse_of_hub_keycaps/
and this?
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/pulse-sa-keycap-set/talk/2033645

This kind of promotion during a drop. I dont know how to call it.

there were also other posts where he promoted hub with a hyperfuse combination.

[KaosJ]

I think the main issue some people may have with inspiring from other colorways is the fact that you are reusing well known keycap set names even though they may be completely different colors then what the name implies. I don't really care personally it's just colors in the end just thought I'd put my consensus from what I've heard.

Gotcha but i see just 3 sets doing it: Miami, Skidata and Royal and just the last one is really close to the OG.

I could care less about the names. KaosJ are you part of this project? I would assume Evan would have some respect for the designers of the colorways being copied.

Nha i'm just laughing at the **** you guys are throwing on this.  I'm just IN this project meaning i joined this project like other 678 people did.   
The only designer he should have contacted in this matter is Donut for Royal since is the only set with the same name and a really similar set (not exactly the same tho).

Are we looking at the same gallery?

https://thevankeyboards.com/pages/hub_gallery


Donut didnt create RA ffs.

im out of this garbage.

whoever designed it lol (i assume is the dude from the MD drop? Alpha 610 Typewriter actually) 
Yes we are looking at the same gallery, i don't see on any the same exact set (reversed legends, reversed colors, etc..) 

[chuckdee]

In the end, a lot of work has gone into this it seems, though that work hasn't been communicated uniformly or consistently.  The idea is really cool also.  It would seem a shame to ruin all of that by optics with the community as the community is being asked for support in the way of buying the sets.  It needs someone with a knowledge of PR and communications that can take a step away from feelings on the project, and address the concerns in a meaningful way.  And it sucks that this is happening during the Kickstarter in this thread.