New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making

[Elrick]

Thanks for the comments, everyone...

We're working on getting the web pages up as soon as possible, so you can order.

Looking forward to buying one.  Please let us know here when your website is ready for ordering/payment.  You will of course be offering International Shipping?

[Matias]

Looking forward to buying one.  Please let us know here when your website is ready for ordering/payment.  You will of course be offering International Shipping?

Yes, international orders will be shipped from Taiwan, to keep costs down.

International shipping from North America is outrageously expensive.

[Findecanor]

We don't currently have plans to do a linear switch.  The closest we'd likely do to linear is the old Black simplified ALPS switches.  They were non-clickly but gave better feedback than Cherry Browns.

If the insides of Matias' switches are anything like the classic "complicated" Alps CM or even the Fuhua ("Fukka"), then you could make any switch into a linear switch by opening it up and remove the metal leaf that provided the tactile feel.
You can even open a mounted Alps switch without having to desolder / pop it out of the keyboard.

[Matias]

If the insides of Matias' switches are anything like the classic "complicated" Alps CM or even the Fuhua ("Fukka"), then you could make any switch into a linear switch by opening it up and remove the metal leaf that provided the tactile feel.
You can even open a mounted Alps switch without having to desolder / pop it out of the keyboard.

Yes, this is true.  Take out the click leaf and they're linear.

Linear switches are trivially easy to make.  It's tactile switches that are hard.  Getting the force interaction between the spring and the click leaf to feel right is enormously difficult.

For linear switches, it's just a spring -- easy.

[karljs]

Okay, thanks for the detailed feedback.  We're looking into it.  Will keep you posted.

Add me to the tally of people interested in PBT caps.

[Burz]

Linear switches are trivially easy to make.

Unless I'm wrong in thinking Cherry is alone now in the linear switch market, my suggestion is to look into making them anyway. Lots of linear/gaming keyboards are selling, probably more than tactile models geared towards typists.

Personally, I don't care much for linear switches. But they may be a good source of revenue for you without a lot of trouble.

[Findecanor]

Personally, I don't care much for linear switches. But they may be a good source of revenue for you without a lot of trouble.

To make revenue on them, there would also have to be a buyer that makes gaming keyboards. Matias already has a buyer for the tactile and clicky switches: itself.
From what I have seen, one of the biggest points with cloned Alps switches is to provide the feel of vintage Mac keyboards to long-term Mac users who can discriminate between what works well and what is flash. Cherry MX does not compete in that niche, but Cherry is the leader in linear switches and there is a small ecosystem around Cherry MX. If Matias would make linear switches, then because Alps does not have this reputation and ecosystem around it, any new linear Alps switch would be inferior in that market, and that would not make good business sense.

What I really meant with my previous post about linear Alps was that, if you want a keyboard with linear Alps, go ahead and mod it yourself.

[Burz]

To make revenue on them, there would also have to be a buyer that makes gaming keyboards. Matias already has a buyer for the tactile and clicky switches: itself.

Having a batch made w/o the click spring would allow them to start dialogue with a much wider range of manufacturers. That means better exposure for their whole line of switches. Then they don't merely get the Das Keyboard types interested, but some Rosewills and Leopolds as well. I care about tactile much more, but if offering linear will get their tactile switches into more products...

From what I have seen, one of the biggest points with cloned Alps switches is to provide the feel of vintage Mac keyboards to long-term Mac users who can discriminate between what works well and what is flash. Cherry MX does not compete in that niche, but Cherry is the leader in linear switches and there is a small ecosystem around Cherry MX. If Matias would make linear switches, then because Alps does not have this reputation and ecosystem around it, any new linear Alps switch would be inferior in that market, and that would not make good business sense.

I don't know if offering manufacturers a sourcing alternative for linear would carry a penalty as you state. Matias stated that making linears is dead simple, so it seemed natural to suggest offering them since they're already 110% of the way there.

The AEKII nostalgia I think is overrated... that is bound to a very limited demographic.

Me and my roommate, for instance, have been using computers since the 80s but have never used a Mac keyboard before the mid-2000s (we both use Macs now). OTOH, we've used plenty of other Alps-type keyboards and when he was sitting in front of his iMac chiclet keyboard and I mentioned I was getting a "clicky" keyboard, he knew it to be an Alps board even though he didn't know the Alps name (i.e. he knew it wasn't like the IBMs he'd used, nor like the Cherry tactile boards we tried in the store a month earlier).

When I got the Dell, he was elated to try it out and now he wants something similar.

[sth]

Aw poor PC users might have to remap their keys in software and deal with the wrong labels on their modifiers? What a crying shame!

[Matias]

Personally, I don't care much for linear switches. But they may be a good source of revenue for you without a lot of trouble.

To make revenue on them, there would also have to be a buyer that makes gaming keyboards. Matias already has a buyer for the tactile and clicky switches: itself.
From what I have seen, one of the biggest points with cloned Alps switches is to provide the feel of vintage Mac keyboards to long-term Mac users who can discriminate between what works well and what is flash. Cherry MX does not compete in that niche, but Cherry is the leader in linear switches and there is a small ecosystem around Cherry MX. If Matias would make linear switches, then because Alps does not have this reputation and ecosystem around it, any new linear Alps switch would be inferior in that market, and that would not make good business sense.

What I really meant with my previous post about linear Alps was that, if you want a keyboard with linear Alps, go ahead and mod it yourself.

This is exactly right.  Thanks for saving me the trouble of writing it. 

A few additional points...

Cherry makes great linear switches.  The Reds are especially good IMO.  For gamers who want to "ride the contact point", linear is the way to go.  You can press one key, repeatedly, VERY FAST doing this.

However, when you're typing words, you're not just pressing one key; you're pressing lots of different keys in rapid succession, AND they have to be pressed in the right order.  That's much easier to do if you can FEEL the contact point -- which is what tactile switches give you.  Linear switches totally suck for this.

For as long as I can remember, Cherry switches were linear and ALPS were tactile.

The Cherry Blue switch is the closest thing they make to tactile, but quite frankly, as a tactile switch, it isn't that great.  It's this crazy Rube Goldberg contraption that's trying to be something it's not.  That it's the most popular Cherry switch is due (I believe) to the fact that people don't only use their keyboards for gaming -- so a little tactile feedback is better than none at all.

If you're not primarily a gamer, I think you'll find ALPS switches are a better tool for the job.

[Matt3o]

if only you had a tenkeyless version...

[Matias]

The AEKII nostalgia I think is overrated... that is bound to a very limited demographic.

Me and my roommate, for instance, have been using computers since the 80s but have never used a Mac keyboard before the mid-2000s (we both use Macs now). OTOH, we've used plenty of other Alps-type keyboards and when he was sitting in front of his iMac chiclet keyboard and I mentioned I was getting a "clicky" keyboard, he knew it to be an Alps board even though he didn't know the Alps name (i.e. he knew it wasn't like the IBMs he'd used, nor like the Cherry tactile boards we tried in the store a month earlier).

When I got the Dell, he was elated to try it out and now he wants something similar.

Certainly the Mac market is much smaller, but we've done pretty well in it over the years, and it continues to grow.

Also, we're much better at solving Mac-related problems than our PC-centric competitors.  Every time Apple does a new major OS release, they invariably mess with the keyboard routines and some customers end up with problems.  We have over 25 years of experience dealing with these types of issues.  PC keyboard makers wouldn't know where to start.

Getting back to your point, certainly most of the money to be made is in the PC market, which is why we also do PC versions of most of our stuff.  It's really interesting (and sometimes painful) seeing which products sell better for each platform.

My only request is once the ball gets rolling that Matias will consider making PC versions with the clicky version of the switch - perhaps a limited edition board for the holiday season.

We are considering doing this.  If we get enough people asking for it, we'll do it.

[therecorder]

Wouldn't the switches that are going to be used on the PC version be similar to MX Clears?

[N8N]

Wouldn't the switches that are going to be used on the PC version be similar to MX Clears?

I'm assuming that the closest equivalent would be the dampened cream Alps like an AEK2, SGI, etc.  Probably clears would be the closest equivalent in the Cherry MX world, but they really don't feel that similar... the Alps tactile/activation point is much higher up in the keystroke than the clears, the tactility is crisper, and force falls off more dramatically after the actuation point.  So basically you *need* the dampeners because you *will* bottom out on every keystroke.  However, they are still a quite pleasant switch to type on.  I think I prefer the clears, but it's not like they're better in every respect - the Alps certainly are more tactile and in some ways feel better.

[ValerieV]

Sorry if this has been asked already but when is the new model going to be released? Thanks.

[Matias]

Sorry if this has been asked already but when is the new model going to be released? Thanks.

We just finished production last week.  They're being flown over this week, and we expect to launch next week.

Also, The Keyboard Company will be distributing for us in Europe.  UK and German versions for PC will be available in the coming months, and possibly other European layouts.  Contact The Keyboard Company if you have special requests.

They have a vendor forum here on GH, or you can contact them directly...

http://geekhack.org/index.php?board=54.0

[therecorder]

Still no Pre-Order Page for PC version...

[Elrick]

Sorry if this has been asked already but when is the new model going to be released? Thanks.

We just finished production last week.  They're being flown over this week, and we expect to launch next week.

Also, The Keyboard Company will be distributing for us in Europe.  UK and German versions for PC will be available in the coming months, and possibly other European layouts.  Contact The Keyboard Company if you have special requests.

They have a vendor forum here on GH, or you can contact them directly...

http://geekhack.org/index.php?board=54.0

For everybody else on this planet, have you thought about putting them on Ebay?  Still the best place to buy anything no matter where you're located.

[Matias]

For everybody else on this planet, have you thought about putting them on Ebay?  Still the best place to buy anything no matter where you're located.

We have resellers who sell our stuff on eBay (quite a few actually).  Once it's in general distribution, I'm sure you'll see it pop up there too.

Thanks for the suggestion, though...

[therecorder]

I'm a bit confused.  Previously, you said that you were working on a Pre-Order page for the new boards.  Am I to understand that, because the boards are arriving, there won't be a Pre-Order page?  I live in Israel (Asia) - Will I be able to order a PC version from your site?

[Matias]

I'm a bit confused.  Previously, you said that you were working on a Pre-Order page for the new boards.  Am I to understand that, because the boards are arriving, there won't be a Pre-Order page?  I live in Israel (Asia) - Will I be able to order a PC version from your site?

Yes, you will.  Sorry about the delay.  There's a lot on our plate right now.  Will get it up as soon as possible...

[Matt3o]

weird question I know, but... would be possible to see some pictures of the PCB?

[Matias]

weird question I know, but... would be possible to see some pictures of the PCB?

Okay, here you go, fresh off the assembly line...  :-)

[dirge]

Antistatic wrist straps for keyboards!  Nice.  Need pictures of the switches, well just more pictures.

When can we order switches?

[Matt3o]

keyboard... naked... mmmmh

[Matias]

Antistatic wrist straps for keyboards!  Nice.  Need pictures of the switches, well just more pictures.

All our keyboards have USB 2.0 hubs, so antistatic wrist straps are a must.

When can we order switches?

Probably in about a month.  All of our first batch of switches are going into keyboards.

[dirge]

Will they be available on the website or should we be contacting you mate?

[Elrick]

Okay, here you go, fresh off the assembly line...  :-)

Damn, the all white pcb must be for the Apple mac line right?

I wish us regular PC users can have an all white keyboard.  You apple users are spoilt rotten.

[Icarium]

Is there actually a difference between PC and MAC keyboards? I never noticed anything and it's all USB these days, right?

[Matt3o]

inverted alt and super and the mac version will probably have some specific fn keys for exposé, mission control, etc. Also to get plain F1-F12 you have to press the FN key. Anyway it is going to work flawlessly on PC too I believe (if they are of the same size you can invert alt and super keys)

Apart from that, I must say that I don't like keyboards that are USB hubs, too. But it's just a personal preference.

[hasu]

Matias, thanks for your update!

I never want any USB hub on my keyboard! Never, never... Yeah, it is just my opinion(whine) and I know others will be happy with hub ports on the keyboard.
I heard that HHKB pro2 with Hub is problematic with some lame BIOS.

BTW, if you can answer, I'd like to ask this: Are new Matias switches made by Forward?
Forward still keep manufacturing keyboard switches? or you uses other manufacturer?

[Matias]

Is there actually a difference between PC and MAC keyboards? I never noticed anything and it's all USB these days, right?

On Mac keyboards, the labelling and position of the Alt and Windows keys are different.  The positions are swapped, and the Alt key is labelled as "Option" while the Windows key is labelled as "Command".

On a Mac, the Command key is used for keyboard shortcuts, like Copy & Paste.  Since it's in the same position as the Alt key, it's faster and easier to reach than Ctrl.  You don't have to move your hand or twist it around.

You just move your thumb off the spacebar, and Command is right there.

BTW, on my PCs, I've used AutoHotkey to move Ctrl to the Alt key.  Old habits die hard.

IBM knew what a hassle this was, so their older ThinkPads had the Ctrl key further in, making it more comfortable to reach.  Everything went to hell when the Windows key appeared on the scene.

Those old ThinkPads were really great machines...

[Matias]

I never want any USB hub on my keyboard! Never, never... Yeah, it is just my opinion(whine) and I know others will be happy with hub ports on the keyboard.
I heard that HHKB pro2 with Hub is problematic with some lame BIOS.

You shouldn't buy a machine with lame BIOS.  :-)

I'm still amazed at how crappy USB is on PCs, after all this time.

BTW, if you can answer, I'd like to ask this: Are new Matias switches made by Forward?
Forward still keep manufacturing keyboard switches? or you uses other manufacturer?

Forward / Fuhua no longer makes ALPS switches.  They never really cared about ALPS, making zero effort to market them -- not even listing them in their catalog.  It's no surprise that Cherry is more popular.

[Matias]

inverted alt and super and the mac version will probably have some specific fn keys for exposé, mission control, etc. Also to get plain F1-F12 you have to press the FN key. Anyway it is going to work flawlessly on PC too I believe (if they are of the same size you can invert alt and super keys)

Yes, I forgot to mention that...

The Mac version works like an Apple keyboard, with the function keys acting as multimedia and system controls, and an Fn key to get you plain F1-F18.  There's even an Eject key for people with older Macs that need it.

The PC version has a very standard layout.  It has dedicated volume keys, and you can access Pause/Play and RW/FF via an Fn key.  The only major thing we changed was moving Num Lock up one row (so you don't hit it by accident) and put a Tab key in its original place.

I think both camps will be happy with the new layouts.

[Matias]

I wish us regular PC users can have an all white keyboard.  You apple users are spoilt rotten.

There's nothing to stop you from plugging a Mac keyboard into your PC.  :-)

Will they be available on the website or should we be contacting you mate?

They'll be available on the website.

[Elrick]

I wish us regular PC users can have an all white keyboard.  You apple users are spoilt rotten.

There's nothing to stop you from plugging a Mac keyboard into your PC.  :-)

I use to operate Macs when they were the 8600/9600 models (ancient times).  Anyway it was before Jobsie came back to the mothership and the G3's started to be produced.

That was when I jumped ship onto the Gatesy Juggernaut.  Just never looked back.

You get use to the MS way of doing things and the keyboards all work seamlessly with the OS. That is why I get frightened when I see the Apple Command icon again.  If you won't remove the icon, I just might remove it myself, with a bit of turps or acetone (depends on the plastic you've used).

I need the keyboard to be free of any Apple connotations, that's all........dark, horrible times that need to be forgotten. 

[Daniel Beardsmore]

OK, I'm a bit lost. FK302Q/QPC have "New quiet switches" but the FK302 has "Clicky ALPS switches". Except that FK302 is the Tactile Pro 3 model number. But you can't make any more of those as Fukka switches are dead. But you have new clicky switches that have the same colour sliders (which only makes ALPS even more confusing) ... so those would be "New clicky switches" not "Clicky ALPS switches" ... unless you don't plan to sell the new clicky switches until the stocks of the Fukka are finally depleted?

(I thought that the Tactile Pro 3 had PBT or some such for the keycaps as they felt so different, but apparently not. Anyone know what the BBC Micro used? Those keycaps were infinitely durable -- no shine ever -- yet they were also doubleshot, something that is presently only available in ABS.)

[Matias]

OK, I'm a bit lost. FK302Q/QPC have "New quiet switches" but the FK302 has "Clicky ALPS switches". Except that FK302 is the Tactile Pro 3 model number. But you can't make any more of those as Fukka switches are dead. But you have new clicky switches that have the same colour sliders (which only makes ALPS even more confusing) ... so those would be "New clicky switches" not "Clicky ALPS switches" ... unless you don't plan to sell the new clicky switches until the stocks of the Fukka are finally depleted?

Sorry for the confusion...

We kept the part number the same, because the changes from the old model were small.

If you have a lot of retailers selling your stuff, changing part numbers is extremely painful.  A lot of retailers are so lazy, they often won't carry new products because they can't be bothered setting up new part numbers.  Shocking, I know.  The numbnuts running many brick & mortar chains are the reason Amazon is "winning".

Generally, the smaller chains are better to deal with.  For example, MicroCenter are great.  We've found Walmart and Staples to be indecisive and generally brain dead.

Shop where they treat you right, and let the dinosaurs die.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I've never yet found a mainstream online retailer that doesn't suck – the usual problem is that they refuse to make up for the lack of ability to examine products in person by having reliable or remotely useful specs, and there's never any way to filter what broken and mangled specs they do have, to identify products beyond "is it a keyboard? good" "is it a monitor? good" This is a real headache when you're trying to source a good IPS panel. And you don't want wide gamut. Even keyboardco haven't got any reliable filtering – their site is confusing as hell. They don't even supply all available ISO/UK keyboards (no Das, no Qpad, no German G80-3000 with clears – had to order mine from a German retailer directly), so where on earth are you meant to get a reliable list of UK/ISO layout keyboards, or monitors by panel type + aspect (widescreen is thoroughly pointless for serious work), or mice by button count/position/functionality ...? (tftcentral.co.uk is a good source if you need to know the panel type and model of a given display, though – mine are all LM201U05 1600×1200 LG S-IPS)

Besides, that doesn't answer my question about whether you're shipping the new clicky switches yet or whether you're going to quietly introduce them into the FK302 as the stock of Fukkas runs out

[Elrick]

If you have a lot of retailers selling your stuff, changing part numbers is extremely painful.  A lot of retailers are so lazy, they often won't carry new products because they can't be bothered setting up new part numbers.  Shocking, I know.  The numbnuts running many brick & mortar chains are the reason Amazon is "winning".

Damn, you've got the same retailers as we do.  Here in Australia they're all crying about us spending our money on internet sales.  In fact most of the bigger retailers want the Government to stop it now.

Generally, the smaller chains are better to deal with.  For example, MicroCenter are great.  We've found Walmart and Staples to be indecisive and generally brain dead.

At least you guys have a variety of stores available to you, we basically have nothing except the larger "Idiot" chains that belly-ache about anything.

Shop where they treat you right, and let the dinosaurs die.

Too true, I thank god for having an unrestricted internet connection for now.

[Matias]

They don't even supply all available ISO/UK keyboards (no Das, no Qpad, no German G80-3000 with clears – had to order mine from a German retailer directly), so where on earth are you meant to get a reliable list of UK/ISO layout keyboards

Europe is a difficult market for keyboards.  Almost every country has their own idiosyncratic layout, and many have populations so small that it's difficult to get orders big enough to satisfy minimum order quanitities (MOQ).  Add in language barriers and lack (or obscurity) of sales channels, and I'm amazed anything gets sold there at all.

Besides, that doesn't answer my question about whether you're shipping the new clicky switches yet or whether you're going to quietly introduce them into the FK302 as the stock of Fukkas runs out

The only FK302 models left that still have Fukkas are UK and German.  The US models have be sold out for months.  Once the UK and German stock sells out, Fukkas will slip into the sands of history.

[Matias]

If you have a lot of retailers selling your stuff, changing part numbers is extremely painful.  A lot of retailers are so lazy, they often won't carry new products because they can't be bothered setting up new part numbers.  Shocking, I know.  The numbnuts running many brick & mortar chains are the reason Amazon is "winning".

Damn, you've got the same retailers as we do.  Here in Australia they're all crying about us spending our money on internet sales.  In fact most of the bigger retailers want the Government to stop it now.

Australia is even more difficult than Europe.  Outside of online sales, it's strictly controlled by local retailers.

[Elrick]

Australia is even more difficult than Europe.  Outside of online sales, it's strictly controlled by local retailers.

YES, it's a place akin to it's location, at the bottom of the world.  In fact we're all known as First-Class A**holes here. 

[dirge]

Wouldn't say all of you but that ***** with the iron mine needs shooting.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Once the UK and German stock sells out, Fukkas will slip into the sands of history.

There's a thought – Diatec won't be able to sell the Zero any more. It would be so funny if Diatec ended up buying Matias switches to continue selling the Zero =)

[__red__]

I understand you're busy out there but of you could throw a switch of each type in an envelope and send it to some of the custom builders here they could get started on creating some demand for you

[Zehkul]

For what it's worth, this page claims that they're more prone to cracking and no less resistant than ABS to turning shiny...

http://www.keyboardlover.com/keycaps.php

Lol. Says PBT is not more durable than ABS but at the same time states that key thickness is an important factor. No word on surface structure (very important) either. Some serious cretinism there.

I can only say — test it yourself. Every keyboard enthusiast should have a good old IBM Model M anyway. More than 20 years old, yet nearly no shine! And I get Filco spacebars to shine within weeks. WASDKeyboards even considered buying molds for PBT keys. And then there’s dye sublimation, way prettier than laser.

Would you be able to get dye sublimation? I don’t know at all how expensive it is. It is horribly expensive for our small orders here, but that applies to all PBT, kinda.
Well, nevertheless, I am interested to see how these switches turn out. With projects like the phantom being successful I don’t see any reason why there shouldn’t be a custom board with them in the future.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Another vote for dye sub legends!

[dorkvader]

Would you be able to get dye sublimation? I don’t know at all how expensive it is. It is horribly expensive for our small orders here, but that applies to all PBT, kinda.

I would look into Dyesub. Unicomp cranks out dyesub keycap sets all the time (economy of scale) and they put them up for like $20 retail. I imagine if you order over 1000 sets, or however many you need, you can get dyesubs run until the sheets wear out, maximizing the economies of scale.

I don't know who to talk to about ALPS PBT or getting dyesub done (other than imsto, who seems to be the bridge between china's Dyesub PBT factories and the US) bet I think it'll be well worth it, especially for a quality keyboard like this.

[mkawa]

SP has alps molds, and will do PBT dyesub, but their process is relatively inefficient compared to their 2-shot process, and color matching, registration boundaries, etc. are a pretty big issue for them, so they prefer to manufacture 2-shots.

also, they keep 0 alps keys in stock, so everything would have to be molded fresh (the only saving grace of dyesubs for MX for them).

if we start cranking out alps compatible boards here, that could change, but that's how things stand at the moment.