[IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop

[Oblotzky]

I'm not saying that Oblotsky shouldn't do it. I'm asking for him to give his customers the CHOICE. Grant us the freedom to decide for ourselves personally how we want it to look. It is a small thing but it deters my ability to enjoy the set because of what.. 8 keys? I'd happily drop $50 on a kit to get the extra F keys.

Well obviously this would be something worth dropping extra money on to you, but I have to weigh in the other 1k participants that will have to pay for an increase in cost. I've had the function row in blue since the beginning of the IC and as far as I can remember, you are the first person to say that this is a no-buy issue. I wish that number of people was zero, but one is pretty good considering the number of people interested.

Oblotzky himself acknowldges this when he put alpha-colored spacebars in the base kit and only put blue spacebars in the True Cadet kit. If adhering to the modern standard applies to spacebars why not the F row?

Also in terms of design rules, I agree that it makes most sense to have keys of the same 'group' have the same color. But I disagree that function row belongs with alphas, because alpha keys produce characters, which the function keys do not.

- Spacebar is an alpha key.

[zslane]

Well, I consider this set somewhat confused about its purpose, precisely because it is trying to please so many masters. As a result, you have different camps laying equal claim to that purpose. Arguments that tie the colorway to the profile (Cherry) or layout (ANSI) are specious at best. When you take a colorway that was designed for a specialized board with an extremely non-standard layout (even for its time) and try to "adapt" it to the ANSI standard layout, you must inevitably make changes. But I don't subscribe to the notion that color choices must ape the IBM Model M just because the (ANSI) layout evolved from it. Color and layout are orthogonal properties, and there is no aesthetic or thematic reason to make alternating F-row blocks possible, only a political one (to please more people).

I personally don't care whether Oblotzky does any of that or not; I'm just saying that "history" is not a viable argument upon which to hang the justification for it. Simply admit that such thematic compromises exist purely to draw a bigger crowd to the show, not because "history" calls out for it.

[Wetherbee]

Well obviously this would be something worth dropping extra money on to you, but I have to weigh in the other 1k participants that will have to pay for an increase in cost.

There would be no extra cost to the 1k participants if the F-row was more standard in the base kit. If the F-row was in its own kit there would only be extra cost for the people that bought it if it met MOQ. The diehards who are paying for the True Cadet kit are already slapping down cash to get a more authentic experience, why not simply make True Cadet the only option? It would be cheaper and more authentic.

Spacebar is an alpha key, just like F5-F8 are reserved for modifiers? What makes you think spacebar is an alpha key? Convention? History? Standards? It is the same argument I'm making.

[Oblotzky]

There would be no extra cost to the 1k participants if the F-row was more standard in the base kit. If the F-row was in its own kit there would only be extra cost for the people that bought it if it met MOQ.

Of course there would be no increase in cost of the base kit if I made it the default option, but I am not going to do that because one person threatens to not buy the set if I don't. I have been fooled by a vocal minority often enough.

What makes you think spacebar is an alpha key? Convention? History? Standards? It is the same argument I'm making.

The fact that when I hit the key, an empty character is created.

[Wetherbee]

The fact that when I hit the button, an ASCII character is created.

That has nothing to do with the keyboard layout or colors. The keyboard only produces scan-codes. In most cases, ASCII characters are not created anymore. Windows typically creates Unicode, UTF-8, or UTF-16 characters depending on the application. How scan codes map to characters is dependent on the localization and operating system. Philosophically, a spacebar is nothing like an alphanumeric character. In fact, it could be called the opposite - a lack of alphanumeric character, or an empty space. The shift modifier effects alphanumeric keys but it does nothing when I type 'shift-space.'

[Oblotzky]

The fact that when I hit the button, an ASCII character is created.

That has nothing to do with the keyboard layout or colors. The keyboard only produces scan-codes. In most cases, ASCII characters are not created anymore. Windows typically creates Unicode, UTF-8, or UTF-16 characters depending on the application. How scan codes map to characters is dependent on the localization and operating system. Philosophically, a spacebar is nothing like an alphanumeric character. In fact, it could be called the opposite - a lack of alphanumeric character, or an empty space. The shift modifier effects alphanumeric keys but it does nothing when I type 'shift-space.'

Sorry I picked the wrong description, since that would also have made the TAB key an alpha key by my definition. I edited my question accordingly, but not in time.

[Wetherbee]

So why is Tab colored like a modifier when it doesn't modify?

Why is space colored like an alphanumeric key when it isn't?

Why is F5-F8 colored like a modifier but we don't use them as modifiers in the modern sense?

These are all questions harking back to decisions made in 1986 that still impact us to this day. We value the modern standard for color layouts to the point where we argue about it on internet forums. It isn't something to be tossed aside lightly. People get really passionate about their spacebar colors just the same as some get passionate about their F-row colors, except those pesky 60% users who can ignore the problem altogether by just completely defying convention - their standards revolve around the M0110 and the HHKB, not the IBM Enhanced Keyboard.

And then there are people in the middle with WKL HHKB layouts and 65% and 75% and all manner of innovative layouts. For them I suppose it matters less, but for the traditional fullsize/1800/TKL/96key, I think we should defer more to the general expectation of how we cluster the colorways, unless we are purposely going for a design asthetic that defies that convention, i.e. Symbolics, in which case True Cadet is the purest expression of that form possible given Cherry tooling and budget realities and current layouts (except for that one dude who built his own Space Cadet keyboard, god bless him).

[Wetherbee]

Well, I consider this set somewhat confused about its purpose, precisely because it is trying to please so many masters.

This is notable, although I would say that Oblotsky's mission is better summarized as "attempting to adapt the Symbolics Space Cadet colorway to the 104-key Cherry profile ANSI layout standard while accommodating as many other layouts as possible to satisfy the community while minimizing the price." That seems to be to be the mission. In other words, how do we adapt a space cadet colorway and, to a lesser-extent, layout ("Rub Out!") to work with a look developed for an IBM layout from 1986-1995 (with later adaptations to the modern 104-key ANSI standard)?

The problem for Oblotsky is the question of "how far?" How far do you adapt the theme? Do you make the spacebar blue? Do you defy convention and make the F-row all one color? Why do one but not the other? Every decision he makes will delight and disappoint different people. He can't make everyone happy, but if there is a chance to provide an optional kit that could make more people happy but not at the expense of the rest of the groupbuy, then why not? What is the harm? Customer gets what they want, and the designer, distributor, and manufacturer pocket the profits. Good deal. If it doesn't meet MOQ, then oh-well. That customer just doesn't demand enough market presence.

[Oblotzky]

He can't make everyone happy, but if there is a chance to provide an optional kit that could make more people happy but not at the expense of the rest of the groupbuy, then why not? What is the harm?

We have 9 kits already, which is quite a bit for a GMK buy. If this was an SA buy, I'd be offering a F1-F12 in gray kit as it would only be 9.99$ with MOQ 25, but I feel very uncomfortable doing this on a GMK buy where MOQ's start at 100.

[Wetherbee]

We have 9 kits already, which is quite a bit for a GMK buy. If this was an SA buy, I'd be offering a F1-F12 in gray kit as it would only be 9.99$ with MOQ 25, but I feel very uncomfortable doing this on a GMK buy where MOQ's start at 100.

That is a very fair point. My question then is how much would the price of True Cadet increase if 8 blue keys were added? (or even Blue Alphas which might even be a better place for them).

[Oblotzky]

We have 9 kits already, which is quite a bit for a GMK buy. If this was an SA buy, I'd be offering a F1-F12 in gray kit as it would only be 9.99$ with MOQ 25, but I feel very uncomfortable doing this on a GMK buy where MOQ's start at 100.

That is a very fair point. My question then is how much would the price of True Cadet increase if 8 blue keys were added? (or even Blue Alphas which might even be a better place for them).

Both kits already cost enough as they are.

[Wetherbee]

What are the GMK color codes used for this set? Are they all custom pantones?

[Oblotzky]

What are the GMK color codes used for this set? Are they all custom pantones?

Color matched to samples from Signature Plastics, BFP and GD. Black is NN from GMK's own library and legend white is TBD. I'm trying to achieve a halfway point between GMK's CP and SP's WCK.

[Wetherbee]

Both kits already cost enough as they are.

I admire a designer that stands their ground despite the mental gymnastics required.

That said, please include 6u center-stem and Space Cadet legends on GMK Oblivion Round 2.

In before someone complains that it was never asked in the interest check.

[TerryMathews]

halfway point between GMK's CP and SP's WCK.

GMK 3K?

[Oblotzky]

halfway point between GMK's CP and SP's WCK.

GMK 3K?

Too cold, WCK is creamy, which I want to capture a part of.

Added 6.25u Spacebar to 40bit Kit for keyboards such as Pearl, JD40 and others.

[turbosloth]

God these updates look fantastic, thanks for adding legends to the 40bit kit. It really does balance out the look a lot better. Absolutely getting a base and the 40bit

[yap68]

Good job on the vertical macro rows. Hope that actual colourway will be a bit less satuarated than renders

[zslane]

FWIW I also consider the spacebar an alpha key because it adds a single character to whatever text is being typed, and when you delete it with the Delete or Backspace key, a single character is removed from the text. Tab is more of a cursor control character, causing the cursor to position itself at pre-determined positions which are typically configurable per application/document, much in the same way that Return is purely a cursor positioning character, moving the cursor to a position driven by text layout rules. A space character behaves more like all the other alpha characters than it does any of the cursor positioning "control codes" that manipulate whitespace.

However, it is not uncommon for keys to be colored according to aesthetic rules unattached to key function or category. Look at all the keyboards that people have where they use "modifier colored" ~` and |\ keys so as to surround the central alpha block in the other color. The original Space Cadet keyboard does this on a grander scale, which is primarily why the spacebar is colored blue rather than gray.

[dsaf]

...If this was an SA buy, I'd be offering a F1-F12 in gray kit as it would only be 9.99$ with MOQ 25...

SA Space Cadet confirmed!

[euphxenos]

Tab is more of a cursor control character, causing the cursor to position itself at pre-determined positions which are typically configurable per application/document, much in the same way that Return is purely a cursor positioning character, moving the cursor to a position driven by text layout rules.

That may be what happens when some software you use sees you press the tab key, but there *is* such a thing as a tab character.  That's character number 9 in your ASCII character set, the horizontal tab, often represented as '\t'.  Indenting with tabs vs spaces, and how much width a tab should represent when present are long-running points of contention in computer programming.  There are many people out there who expect hitting the tab key to insert a tab character.

[zslane]

Sure, but you can't actually see ASCII code 0x9. It is what is known as a non-printing (control) character. It is "visible" only in the sense that it has a visible effect on cursor positioning. Its presence in a document merely records the fact that cursor positioning is required at that point in the document. Everything between ASCII code 0x20 (space) and ASCII code 0x7E (~) is a printable character with a corresponding alpha key on an ANSI computer keyboard.

[elfick]

I have been curious, not specifically with this set but in general, why the Tab is often/usually colored as a mod. It clearly isn't a mod and stylistically it seems it would look better if it matched the backslash, which definitely is an alpha.

[a_ak57]

However, it is not uncommon for keys to be colored according to aesthetic rules unattached to key function or category. Look at all the keyboards that people have where they use "modifier colored" ~` and |\ keys so as to surround the central alpha block in the other color.

sup

[zslane]

I think we need to expand our notion of what a "modifier" can be. I think it is just easier to think of "modifiers" as keys that don't produce a printable character. Of course, that definition goes out the window with the numpad since keys like /, *, -, and + all produce printable characters but are colored as "mods", go figure (I don't know who first came up with that hair-brained scheme, but it feels like something we might be able to pin on IBM).

[OracleKev]

It's interesting thought exercise to put meanings to key categorization, but there really isn't one right answer since what keys do and mean evolved over time.  Aesthetic taste changed over time as well. With homage set like this that predates familiar notions, it's even more complicated with lots of contradictions.

To me, unicolor function row looks wrong, even though I understand the Space Cadet lineage and unicolor makes more logical sense.
Not a huge deal to me, so support and respect designer's direction.  It didn't hurt to ask [nicely] for options to play with colors.

[T0mb3ry]

I have been curious, not specifically with this set but in general, why the Tab is often/usually colored as a mod. It clearly isn't a mod and stylistically it seems it would look better if it matched the backslash, which definitely is an alpha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_key

Read the first line. Its definitely not a character tho it has its special charachter for text formats. It is an control (in term of moving text cursor or changing focus in user controls) key. Otherwise the enter/return is an charachter too since it has its special charachter "\r" or "\r\n".

[stu-rem]

... Aesthetic taste changed over time...

To me, unicolor function row looks wrong, even though I understand the Space Cadet lineage and unicolor makes more logical sense...

Understand --- though I remember I thought the reverse when IBM introduced the dual-colour top function row --- but that's just personal preference.
(and if you must have function keys, bring back the left column!)

The real annoyance was the Caps Lock / Control placement, IBM screwed us over on that!

----------

In either case, bring on Space Cadet!!


Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[dvorcol]

Of course, that definition [of "modifier"] goes out the window with the numpad since keys like /, *, -, and + all produce printable characters but are colored as "mods", go figure...

Since the numpad layout matches that of a standard four-row calculator, the modifier colors were likely assigned to all keys that performed functions on calculators of the time.

[elfick]

I have been curious, not specifically with this set but in general, why the Tab is often/usually colored as a mod. It clearly isn't a mod and stylistically it seems it would look better if it matched the backslash, which definitely is an alpha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_key

Read the first line. Its definitely not a character tho it has its special charachter for text formats. It is an control (in term of moving text cursor or changing focus in user controls) key. Otherwise the enter/return is an charachter too since it has its special charachter "\r" or "\r\n".

I'm not sure how the first line explains why the tab key is normally colored with the mods, which generally aren't cursor control keys.
I wasn't saying tab is an alpha, but rather that it isn't a mod and I fully agree that it's closest to the return in usage.

Though, in thinking about this reply, I probably stumbled onto the answer...

I'd classify keys like this:
alphas = need no explanation but I would include spacebar since it's still a regular character
mods = keys that do nothing on their own and only modify other keys; shift, ctrl, alt, super
others = esc, tab, return, function keys, arrows, backspace/delete, home/end, page up/down

If you only have two "main" colors then you'd need to combine those three into two and it makes the most sense to color the mods and others the same.

[Oblotzky]

Problem solved, no more blue

[dvorcol]

Problem solved, no more blue

Show Image

Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s

[Oblotzky]

Problem solved, no more blue

Show Image

Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s

like this?

[romevi]

Can you make it so that both the caps and legends are the same color blue?

[zslane]

I'd classify keys like this:
alphas = need no explanation but I would include spacebar since it's still a regular character
mods = keys that do nothing on their own and only modify other keys; shift, ctrl, alt, super
others = esc, tab, return, function keys, arrows, backspace/delete, home/end, page up/down

If you only have two "main" colors then you'd need to combine those three into two and it makes the most sense to color the mods and others the same.

Indeed. Really there are only two categories today, alphas and "everything else". Our name for "everything else" is "modifier". There's no logic to be found in it. After all, logic and consistency was thrown out the window in 1981 when IBM decided to give the Model F/M keyboard an F-row in which two thirds of them were color coded as alphas and one third of them were color coded as modifiers.

[JFKroflcopter]

Problem solved, no more blue

Show Image

Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s

like this?

Show Image

I need this.

[dvorcol]

Problem solved, no more blue

Show Image

Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s

like this?

Show Image

Really, really close.  Just these few minor adjustments and you're there:
  - Remove the secondary legends.
  - Darken all the legends a bit.  You know, almost black.
  - Use a lighter shade of grey on the mods.
  - Change colors on F1 - F4 and F9 - F12 to match the alphas.
  - Remove all the keycaps below the 6th row from the base kit.

Gotta keep the name, because that's what makes this set unique.  And it sounds super cool!

/s

[Vigrith]

Can you make it so that both the caps and legends are the same color blue?

Seconded.

[pvd]

Who else is in for space cadet monolegends? 

[mtuanvu]

My cadet is ready and waiting

[stu-rem]

Who else is in for space cadet monolegends? 

APL-only? Yeah!
_(good way to learn to touch-type)_

_or, Klingon-only..._

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[dvorcol]

Show Image

My cadet is ready and waiting

Wow, I love your carbon fiber spacebar!

[MikeTheTiger]

Looking good. Am I not seeing Minivan support in the 40s kit?

[Oblotzky]

Looking good. Am I not seeing Minivan support in the 40s kit?

Correct, the 40s kit is currently considered final.

[MikeTheTiger]

Looking good. Am I not seeing Minivan support in the 40s kit?

Correct, the 40s kit is currently considered final.

Is there a reason why? I’m starting to notice a trend of lack of support.

[sgtpopwell]

I definitely need this in my life. Can't wait, super excited!

[ye_cole]

Is there a reason why? I’m starting to notice a trend of lack of support.

Same question! I've been following this thread and carbon closely, and it seems odd.

[befbef]

What case colors would you say could fit well beside gray? Would like to see some renders with non gray cases.

[T0mb3ry]

What case colors would you say could fit well beside gray? Would like to see some renders with non gray cases.

Silver or white would match very well. Otherwise black works always. I personaly plan to put it on a keyboard with a silver case.

[zslane]

Among the earliest Space Cadet keyboards is the one with the black case, but I am partial to the second generation version with the white case.