[IC] Ion: Xeno 75% - Group buy open now @zealpc.net !!

[KaosJ]

This was much more unique without the f-row spacers. Now it is starting to look more like a TKL top row.  =/

Will probably skip if the f-row spacers are there, but understand that it may be more appealing to some that way.

This, i agree that the no spacers option was more unique and better, by using spacers, a TKL would be the go to imho

[Pwner]

Poll done.


*This wont serve as a be all, end all.  I would just like to see where the majority lies.





.. So I can do the opposite.

[KaosJ]

.. So I can do the opposite.

inb4: removing totally the f-row

[SBN]

It takes away significantly from the original, unique aesthetic. [...] And the arguments for tactile need seem to ignore the dozens of layouts [...] without f-row spacers.

[rmendis]

It takes away significantly from the original, unique aesthetic. [...] And the arguments for tactile need seem to ignore the dozens of layouts [...] without f-row spacers.

There were some points made in favor of the f-row spacers earlier in the thread, because the space provides a "tactile" gap to know which f-key you are on. However, there are many popular keyboards without f-row gaps that people use.

[Funktion]

Voted.
For me, the spacing between the number row and the function row is the crucial element. So ultimately I'm happy with either one.

[SBN]

It takes away significantly from the original, unique aesthetic. [...] And the arguments for tactile need seem to ignore the dozens of layouts [...] without f-row spacers.

There were some points made in favor of the f-row spacers earlier in the thread, because the space provides a "tactile" gap to know which f-key you are on. However, there are many popular keyboards without f-row gaps that people use.

I just wanted to point out (not even completely serious), that you said this unique aesthetic can be found in dozens of keyboards.

Like I said, it was more of a joke...

We will see what the final board will look like! 

[rmendis]

It takes away significantly from the original, unique aesthetic. [...] And the arguments for tactile need seem to ignore the dozens of layouts [...] without f-row spacers.

There were some points made in favor of the f-row spacers earlier in the thread, because the space provides a "tactile" gap to know which f-key you are on. However, there are many popular keyboards without f-row gaps that people use.

I just wanted to point out (not even completely serious), that you said this unique aesthetic can be found in dozens of leyboards.

Like I said, it was more of a joke...

We will see what the final board will look like! 

Ah, I see. Lol.

What made the original design unique to me, was the separate f-row without the spacers. Having a separate f-row with spacers is just a tkl f-row, imo.

I'm definitely in the minority here, so just making a desperate attempt to convince people to stick with the original design. =)

[amnesia0287]

It takes away significantly from the original, unique aesthetic. [...] And the arguments for tactile need seem to ignore the dozens of layouts [...] without f-row spacers.

There were some points made in favor of the f-row spacers earlier in the thread, because the space provides a "tactile" gap to know which f-key you are on. However, there are many popular keyboards without f-row gaps that people use.

I just wanted to point out (not even completely serious), that you said this unique aesthetic can be found in dozens of leyboards.

Like I said, it was more of a joke...

We will see what the final board will look like! 

Ah, I see. Lol.

What made the original design unique to me, was the separate f-row without the spacers. Having a separate f-row with spacers is just a tkl f-row, imo.

I'm definitely in the minority here, so just making a desperate attempt to convince people to stick with the original design. =)

The thing you are ignoring is there are lots of people like me with no TKL and larger boards. I have no interest in anything larger than 75%, which means the only current options are all 75% with no spacers. This with spacers IS the unique one, and thus that is what appeals to me. Without spacers, to me, it’s just a normal 75% that’s missing a key and is slightly harder to use.

I totally get the similarity to TKL, but that is a feature in a keyboard that I don’t currently possess. Also, the spacers aren’t the same unless I’m missing something. They are a bit more compact that a TKL.

Part of why I don’t like no gap is sets with alternating fkey colors. With spacers I think this looks cleaner.

[LightningXI]

Exactly this. Keysets with the sandwiched, alternating function row colors are why I don't like the no-gap 75% look sometimes. The top row looks better with a uniform look, even on a TKL

Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk

[menuhin]

...
...

... the only current options are all 75% with no spacers. This with spacers IS the unique one
...Without spacers, to me, it’s just a normal 75% that’s missing a key and is slightly harder to use.

...the spacers aren’t the same unless I’m missing something. They are a bit more compact than a TKL.
... with alternating fkey colors. With spacers I think this looks cleaner.

You totally speak my mind. 

[manzel]

But most keysets contain a second set of F5-F8 anyway so that you can have a single-colored F row.

[amnesia0287]

But most keysets contain a second set of F5-F8 anyway so that you can have a single-colored F row.

Your definition of most is different than mine.

I just went through 15 of my GMK sets. 4 offer single color F rows. 11 don't.

That's not what I call most.

[LightningXI]

But most keysets contain a second set of F5-F8 anyway so that you can have a single-colored F row.

I own quite a few keysets and a lot/most of them don't actually have that second set of F5-F8.

[manzel]

Ok, it's 3/7 for me. I stand corrected.

[Kango_V]

So, if there is a space between F4 and F5, why no space between 4 and 5? Just saying

[P1kas]

So, if there is a space between F4 and F5, why no space between 4 and 5? Just saying

Because typically custom keyboard layouts don't mess with the number row spacing

[amnesia0287]

So, if there is a space between F4 and F5, why no space between 4 and 5? Just saying

Because function keys and number keys aren't the same? And number keys are usually all the same color?

There is also a space between Esc and F1, are you also advocating for adding a space between ~` and 1? No? Then chillax with the strawman arguments.

[Pwner]

For reference, even with spacers this is nearly the same footprint as a typical 75.  The only difference is it's a few mm's taller.

[rmendis]

I still think the new one shares more style similarity with a TKL than a 75%. I'm not surprised people like the spacers, given the popularity of TKLs. That said, there are plenty of TKLs, and nothing like the original, that has a separate f-row without spacing, that I've seen. In any case, I'm in the minority. =)

[fatpolomanjr]

Splitting the entire F-row on a 75% keyboard already made it somewhat similar to a TKL, just with a navigation cluster that is vertical instead of on an island, and closer arrow keys. With actual keycaps on the F-row it still looks kind of like a TKL, with or without the spacers. To me, the best thing about no spacers is having an entire display area for artisans. But that reasoning is probably less than a minority.

[LightningXI]

I actually read the survey wrong initially, so I'm in the same boar as fatpolomanjr and rmendis. No spacers ftw.

[amnesia0287]

I still think the new one shares more style similarity with a TKL than a 75%. I'm not surprised people like the spacers, given the popularity of TKLs. That said, there are plenty of TKLs, and nothing like the original, that has a separate f-row without spacing, that I've seen. In any case, I'm in the minority. =)

Once again, there are many people like me who have no TKL or larger boards and have no interest in having one. You say people like this because it’s similar to TKL, but to me it seems rather the opposite, it’s unapealing to you because you feel it is similar to tkl that you have. Not that people are desperate for a 75% that is somehow (to you) reminiscent of a TKL.

To me it is appealing because blockers is less like a standard 75% which don’t appeal to me at all.

This is basically the largest board I would ever consider. And it would be the only >75% board I see myself getting if it comes to pass.

[fatpolomanjr]

I actually read the survey wrong initially, so I'm in the same boar as fatpolomanjr and rmendis. No spacers ftw.

For the record, I'm for spacers. I slept through the entire polling period so my vote wasn't included. X(

I'm just backing up rmendis a bit with pretty much the only thing that could sway me to the no-spacers camp.

[Harms]

I still think the new one shares more style similarity with a TKL than a 75%. I'm not surprised people like the spacers, given the popularity of TKLs. That said, there are plenty of TKLs, and nothing like the original, that has a separate f-row without spacing, that I've seen. In any case, I'm in the minority. =)

Once again, there are many people like me who have no TKL or larger boards and have no interest in having one. You say people like this because it’s similar to TKL, but to me it seems rather the opposite, it’s unapealing to you because you feel it is similar to tkl that you have. Not that people are desperate for a 75% that is somehow (to you) reminiscent of a TKL.

To me it is appealing because blockers is less like a standard 75% which don’t appeal to me at all.

This is basically the largest board I would ever consider. And it would be the only >75% board I see myself getting if it comes to pass.

Yea exactly people say it looks like a TKL and that it is not unique.

However, how many 75% boards out there have F row spacers? Cannot think of any on the top of my head.

[rmendis]

Here's what I mean about the uniqueness aspect of the original vs new design...

Original design has two unique features:
1. 75% with separate top row
2. Separate top row with no spacers

New design has one unique feature:
1. 75% with separate top row

Cheers!

[rmendis]

Splitting the entire F-row on a 75% keyboard already made it somewhat similar to a TKL, just with a navigation cluster that is vertical instead of on an island, and closer arrow keys. With actual keycaps on the F-row it still looks kind of like a TKL, with or without the spacers. To me, the best thing about no spacers is having an entire display area for artisans. But that reasoning is probably less than a minority.

Show Image

Show Image

Thanks for the side-by-side renders! I agree the spacing is minimal, but it's still there (sort of like a TX-CP).
And yes, it would have made a nice row for artisans, although, shockingly, that wasn't the first thing that came to mind. =)

[Randalljai]

Been following this for quite some time now and I'm about 50/50 with the whole debate about f-row spacers or no spacers. But the thing that caught my attention the most is the most top right key. Does anyone find it a bit weird with six vertical keys on the right side? Could just be me..I'm just really used to 65% layouts with it having five

Can't wait to see the final product I should be in either way, just all depends on money

[rioc]

Here's what I mean about the uniqueness aspect of the original vs new design...

Original design has two unique features:
1. 75% with separate top row
2. Separate top row with no spacers

New design has one unique feature:
1. 75% with separate top row

Cheers!

not quite correct, it'd also have separate top row with spacers... it's unique to 75% boards, unless you know of one that has that?


anyway, idc and will most likely get into this GB no matter what

[rmendis]

You are combining the features to make a second unique one. By that logic, you could add a third unique feature to the original design.

I agree it's a cool design either way. Technically, you then fall into the "don't care either way camp", which I suspect most people are in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[amnesia0287]

Here's what I mean about the uniqueness aspect of the original vs new design...

Original design has two unique features:
1. 75% with separate top row
2. 75% with separate top row with no spacers

New design has one unique feature:
1. 75% with separate top row
2. 75% with separate top row with spacers
3. 75% that can elegantly use alternating color f-keys

Cheers!

Fixt.

You can't pretend the board exists just cause you like the alternative better. They are both equally unique, you just like one better.

[rmendis]

Here's what I mean about the uniqueness aspect of the original vs new design...

Original design has two unique features:
1. 75% with separate top row
2. 75% with separate top row with no spacers

New design has one unique feature:
1. 75% with separate top row
2. 75% with separate top row with spacers
3. 75% that can elegantly use alternating color f-keys

Cheers!

Fixt.

You can't pretend the board exists just cause you like the alternative better. They are both equally unique, you just like one better.

Now you have combined the features so that each bullet overlaps. Lol.

You also added a third item, alternating colors, which is a matter of preference not uniqueness. You could do the same thing for the original design for people who don't like alternating colors, or who prefer an unbroken row of artisans.

The point is simple: one design has a unique top row, and one does not.

[kmba]

Unique.. Not unique.  Doesn't matter.  I just looks better aesthetically and it's more functional with spacers.  The poll results are heavily slanted.

[menuhin]

Two notes:

1. To Pwner: When I look at the implementation of the triangular LED of KBDFans, I am not so impressed, i.e. there is totally no surprise or wow factor to my eyes.
Please see if some details of implementation may make it look better, e.g. have it milled tapered from the surface to the level of LED may help?

2. I hate TKL and bigger boards because of limited desk space at home, but I have used many keyboards instead of just looking at them, have been programming in various languages for a few decades - and shortcut keys on the F-row are quite important.
I was using some 75% keyboard at home, while in my office, I use a full-size keyboard.
Pwner's design of this 75% first caught my eyes because of the clever and ergonomic use of spaces to separate Esc, Backspace and the arrow cluster. Esc and Backspace are perhaps already at the corner, but I can tell users can definitely hit the left-arrow key faster than one of those 75% keyboards on the market. It just all makes sense, and I didn't think of the F-row much because of that special design - I was thinking the F-keys being more difficult to locate is just unavoidable for 75%.
"Wa-lah", look what we have here - a 75% will also spacers added to all the right place - to facilitate key reach, and it is aesthetically very pleasing also.

[rmendis]

It just looks better aesthetically

That's a matter of opinion.

and it's more functional with spacers.

Perhaps true

The poll results are heavily slanted.

Definitely true

[Etherealsound]

Okay, this is pretty much my ideal layout that I didn't know I needed. The layout with the F spacers is incredibly aesthetically pleasing. If this goes to GB I'm all in.

[rinkaan]

Just saw the thread, not sure if the name game is over but... How about satisfy (SEven - TIS - FIve)
? Image inserted of my not so artistic impression

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[tectonicplate]

I'm not sure where this poll was, but I'm in to purchase without F-row spacers… otherwise I'll pass, the original is what's exciting to me.

[Funktion]

Ignore the hate Pwner. If you build it they will group buy!

[rioc]

Ignore the hate Pwner. If you build it they will group buy!

true... don't really care about the pissing contest about spacers or no... I just want your design man and will buy regardlessly

[KaosJ]

Show Image

For reference, even with spacers this is nearly the same footprint as a typical 75.  The only difference is it's a few mm's taller.

So the evil side of the people just won :( 

[BobCarltheThird]

I know there's a ton of attention being given to the 75% (rightfully so seeing how nice it looks) but is the Zenopad still likely to get ran? That to me is the main thing keeping me attached to this project.

[Funktion]

I know there's a ton of attention being given to the 75% (rightfully so seeing how nice it looks) but is the Zenopad still likely to get ran? That to me is the main thing keeping me attached to this project.

I agree but I'm trying not to get my hopes up for it. The main board is all I'm really expecting. And with any luck maybe we will get an e.t.a soon.

[rmendis]

Ignore the hate Pwner. If you build it they will group buy!

I don't see any hate. Just a discussion of two different design options.

[BobCarltheThird]

I know there's a ton of attention being given to the 75% (rightfully so seeing how nice it looks) but is the Zenopad still likely to get ran? That to me is the main thing keeping me attached to this project.

I agree but I'm trying not to get my hopes up for it. The main board is all I'm really expecting. And with any luck maybe we will get an e.t.a soon.

Ah well. There are always other projects to back I suppose. Maybe someday in the future.

[Aktavate]

I like without spacers, the LED area looks much less crowded without them.

[p_blaze]

Any chance this will cost under $325 

[DukeMugen]

So I had an idea. Why not just make it convertible so that the case can have both spaced and no space F-rows. Same principle goes to the bottom row if people wants a winkeyless, hhkb or standard Xeno layout.

What do you fellas think?

[Pwner]

So I had an idea. Why not just make it convertible so that the case can have both spaced and no space F-rows. Same principle goes to the bottom row if people wants a winkeyless, hhkb or standard Xeno layout.

What do you fellas think?

That idea was tossed around but then that leads to a swiss cheese f-row and I prefer to keep that to a bare minimum wherever possible, as well as the obvious need to offer 2 tops which I would also prefer to avoid.

[Geass]

Is there any information on when the GB for the Xeno 75% will launch?
BTW: The board looks absolutely gorgeous!