Is there such a thing as a cheap clicky keyboard? (for a Brit)

[IBI]

I want to get a nice keyboard but I'm not sure what sort I'd like. I'd like to try a 'clicky' keyboard but I'm having trouble finding a cheap one. All the new ones seem to be aimed at the higher end of the market and I haven't had much luck finding second hand or old ones selling in the UK.

I know there's a lot of model Ms availible on ebay US for reasonable prices, but when you factor in the £20 delivery and whatever the customs and taxes are, it becomes rather a lot for a dirty keyboard with the 'wrong' layout.

A basic MS internet keyboard has lasted me through eight years (and several good thumpings) so build quality and key lifetimes don't have to be very good, neither does it need to have any flashing lights, n-key rollover or USB hubs.

Could anyone suggest something?

[ashort]

I think that one of the things that makes a keyboard "clicky" or even "tactile" is also one of the things that makes it expensive.  I have to make an exception for my apple wireless keyboard, which was expensive ($100), but neither tactile nor clicky.  Actually it feels like keycaps sitting on mud but that's another thread.

Tactile or Clicky boards are exactly that because they have individual mechanical switches for every key on the board.  It seems almost impossible to make keyboards like that on the cheap.  The cheap and nasty keyboards are almost exclusively membrane ones.  I have a Tactile Pro 2 that has Strongman switches in it and it is very clicky and feels pretty good, but the construction on it unfortunately feels a bit cheap.

While not all expensive keyboards are good keyboards,  neither has anyone here has found a good new keyboard that is both cheap and tactile.  A used one is probably your best bet.

They can be cleaned, but oh man...keep that crap away from your family until it IS clean.  =-/

[sashomasho]

I know there's a lot of model Ms availible on ebay US for reasonable prices, but when you factor in the £20 delivery and whatever the customs and taxes are, it becomes rather a lot for a dirty keyboard with the 'wrong' layout.

Could anyone suggest something?

I was on the same boat as you, I have 3 model Ms, but wanted either a mini model M or a new clicky keyboard, not very expensive of course, i live in bulgaria, so every ebay item is at least $35 for shipping plus the item's price. finally i gave up and took one brand new scorpius m10 (blue clicky cherries), which i'm using at work now, $75 but i don't regret it, very clicky, very tactile, very soft in touch, and knowing that there are much better keyboards out there makes me want them even more

regards, alex

[IBI]

I think that one of the things that makes a keyboard "clicky" or even "tactile" is also one of the things that makes it expensive.  I have to make an exception for my apple wireless keyboard, which was expensive ($100), but neither tactile nor clicky.  Actually it feels like keycaps sitting on mud but that's another thread.

Yeah, I appreciate I'm not going to get one for the £4 you can get a membrane keyboard for but I'm surprised there aren't any for £15-£20, I suppose the small audience and small profit margins make them an unappealing prospect for manufacturers.

And since the model M was so rare on ebay UK I thought there might have been another old model that had been popular over here, or the equivelent of clickykeyboards looking for and refurbishing them.

I'd quite agree with you about the apple wireless keyboard, I can see the appeal of it for some people and I'm sure you'd get used to it but it's not the most pleasant of things to use initially.

I might just end up spending the money since come april everything else on the computer will be replaced (except perhaps my trusty slot-loading pioneer DVD-ROM) .

@Alex: Can you explain how the M10 is clicky/tactile and soft at the same time?

[sashomasho]

@Alex: Can you explain how the M10 is clicky/tactile and soft at the same time?

Since I'm not a native english speaker I'll have problem with this but let me try. As I said I come from 4 happy years with model M. With the IBM monster you have to press the key all the way down to the bottom, it's not a short travel but you know that you'll do it because at the end there is a satisfying click, followed by a bouncing force of the spring... When I bought the scorpius with the blue cherries I didn't know what to expect, first I was a little bit disappointed, it was too easy to press (the first 1-2 mm, i'm not very sure about the actual travel, this is what comes to my mind), the click and the tactile feeling were happening at about half the way to the bottom, this was not what my ibm had been giving me, but for a week this keyboard grew a lot on me. Now typing on my model M at home I feel that I have to push harder, and can't get rid of the thought that my fingers are getting tired (i know, this is probably a problem in my head, not in my fingers, but anyway this is what i feel after just 2 weeks with this keyboard). Probably it's not hard to become lazy and to forget how to bottom down your keyboard. Of course the scorpius has its drawbacks, Karlito wrote in hes review that his was very badly built (mine is ok, not excellent, but satisfying), the thing that bothers me (but not as much as it was at the beginning) is the space key click - very loud and high pitched. I removed the key and saw that the switch is the same as the others, the sound without the key cap is not different from the others. I think there is some resonance effect because the key is bigger. However, I'm pretty satisfied with it, not very expensive, and still much better/different from what you can buy from the local computer shop

[dw_junon]

To answer the question in short: quite possibly yes, but you'll have to look for it.

In long...

There's not a lot that's new and clicky and easily obtained anywhere...  A few years ago it was not uncommon for new boxed 1391406s and Dell AT102Ws to show up on eBay, but these have dried up.

More recently Cherry UK has been clearing its non-RoHS compliant stock on eBay, unfortunately it looks like all they have left with MX switches is a Spanish 105 layout 'board (with Reuters logo!).  The classic G80-3000 seems to be stocked by various places though, but do check the full part number to be sure of the switch (see here).

There are indeed third party users of Cherry switches, but I couldn't name one that produces anything in any UK layout.  ALPS don't do keyboard keyswitches any more, Fujitsu no longer manufacture the FKB4700 series in layouts other than US 104 and I was very unsuccessful at trying to find a lead for any new UK 105s.  Unicomp will, it seems, do whatever you require layout-wise, but they have no UK distributor.


Of course, if you're prepared to wait it out for a while, stuff can and does show up on eBay.  I noticed these recently (frankly I cannot justify them...), the one in the foreground looks like a Cherry G80-3000.  They also had some "MaxiSwitch" keyboards (any ideas about these anyone?) which by the name hopefully are keyswitch-based, but I wasn't able to find out.

For such windows-key-less 'boards, searching the 'bay for "102 keyboar*" [in All Categories, titles only, and no quotes in any of these examples] works well (when it does work) at finding people who know what they have (somehow there is something of an assumption that even International keyboards with Windows keys still have 101 keys because it is the standard...).

For a far broader search, I trawl the Computing category, titles only, with this monster: "keyb* -usb -wirel* -multim* -wind* -lapto* -noteb* -kvm -lite -foil -sili* -micros* -inter* -clean* -cyber -medi* -exten* -apple -files -inspi* -thinkpa* -gel -logit* -saite* -gami* -omnib* -satel* -aspir* -easyn* -vaio -mini -sticke* -belk* -kens* -trus* -nove* -fold* -pd* -mus* -cov* -pent* -amd".  It is sloooooow, very wide-ranging, leaves a lot of irrelevancies and may not be suited to anyone except me, but it could be a start, if a too highly evolved one.  Using the negatives in the Keyboards category cuts out a lot of stuff, but reduces the mis-listing flexibility.

The negativity of that crazy thing emphasises two points: there's not a lot out there (that's seen as worth selling, for sale and advertised anyway), and that that there is people don't necessarily know much about.  Positive searches like "IBM model M" just don't bring up much at all in the UK.  You do sometimes see more interesting keyboards listed as relatively generic keyboards, since to most people a keyboard is a keyboard, after all.  Here follows an example...

Probably the most common clicky 'board over here is the Dell AT102W.  These were options on home-oriented Dimension PCs, but seemingly standard(?) on business-oriented Optiplexs for a time, and continued to be seen, perhaps too coincidentally, until around the time ALPS stopped making keyswitches (any thoughts on that?....).  You might still come across them in the wild occasionally.  It appears that with the slightest of marketing they will do astonishing well at the moment, but often don't get it.  Using my old "Dell ke* -black -silver -usb -latit* -inspir* -wireless -axim -laptop", here's one on offer with no interest, and in much nicer colour.  IIRC, these generally use the white ALPS switches (the keycaps are a right pain to pull off) and are pretty nice to type on, with a positive click but relatively light touch, and some weight to the board.

If you are keen to try a Model M, here's a potential lead on the uk.adverts.computer newsgroup [click the dots and type the CAPTCHA for the full address].  On comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware, Bob Eager mentioned the availability of PS/2 stuff and ISTR him mentioning having a number of Model Ms, maybe he could be persuaded.  I do recall another couple of possible leads but my references on these are somewhat older, let me know and I'll pass on what I knew if you like.

Speaking of newsgroups, a want ad in uk.adverts.computer might well be of assistance, just watch out for the occasional idiocy in there.

If I wasn't so tired I'd ramble a bit more.

[IBI]

The information on dell keyboards is interesting, unfortunatly the one you linked to was withdrawn three hours before I looked at it.

For future reference is there any pretty certain ways to recognise a AT102W apart from getting a picture with a keycap off?

EDIT: I've got a keyboard that says 'maxi switch mexico'. Underneath the keycaps are strange white cylinders. I tried to take it apart the other day but the tray and the back are kept together by melted plastic rivets, however the tray opened up at the bottom of certain keys and a rubber dome could be seen through the gaps so it's either pure rubber dome or assisted rubber dome, it's definitely no clickier than my MS internet keyboard though (which is rubber domes and small plastic ramps on the sides of the keycaps to seemingly give them a bit more resistance at the start of the stroke)

[dw_junon]

Hi,

Bad luck on that auction.  I can't see any more beige ones at the mo', but here's an uncommon black one, though possibly not in too great shape and the postage isn't cheap.

As far as I'm aware, the style of the enclosure is as good as certain to have ALPS switches in it.  The giveaways to the enclosure (compared to other contemporary Dell keyboards such as the QuietKey and its variants) are the wide area at the top with a pen-holding ridge, and the distinctive curved profile ED: see pics here

I was mistaken, mine has black ALPS switches which are nicely tactile [you can push it a tiny bit without doing anything, but go further and you feel where it actuates, and can still move a little further] and not especially noisy; theoretically if you had a very light touch and got used to the keyboard it could be very quiet (then again, this one has seen a lot of action and has shiny keys...).  However, if you bash the keys, flooring the switch gives a loud tap (and a "snap" back if you release it quickly).  ED: see Qwerters Clinic [Japanese] for more on ALPS "Big Foot" switches.

Regarding Maxi Switch, it does indeed look like a company rather than a brand or model, so what was in those would require some investigation.  Your example sounds odd... as you say, it may well be using sliding cylinders to drive a rubber dome.  I'm not sure I can see an advantage in such action, hm.

Ramps as a method of adjusting the stroke force is an interesting idea, where exactly are they positioned?

[IBI]

Now that I look at the ramps to try and photograph them, they just seem to be there to keep the keycaps on

Anyway, a photo of the white cylinders:


Sorry about the quality, I only have the cameraphone handy but it should show all relevent details.

The black dell looks interesting, although as you say it does seem to be rather scratched in the photo. The title and one line of the description also use the words keyboards plural, which could explain the high shipping (Although if I end up with multiple AT102Ws that'd be a bonus!). I'd better send an e-mail to the seller.

[xsphat]

How does it feel?

[IBI]

The one I posted a picture of? Much like my Microsoft internet keyboard, it sounds slightly deeper and feels slightly more solid but nothing I'd notice if I wasn't comparing them side by side.

[xsphat]

Thanks, I won't buy one now. I was hoping they were real mechanical switches.

[IBI]

If you've decided not to buy one I guess you want a picture of the whole thing so you know what you're not buying? I'll try and put one up tomorrow.

[xsphat]

Thanks, and I didn't mean to sound crass.

[dw_junon]

Ah, the retaining clips.  Didn't cross my mind...

Thanks for posting the photo, I recall seeing something similar on the 'net but never in person.  You really would think that they were some sort of mechanical keyswitch...

I take it you've probably jumped this step by e-mailing the seller, but if not, or for the benefit of anyone else, I notice this listing, which states the seller has a quantity [30] of various PS/2 keyboards, so you might be in luck.

[dw_junon]

Stop press: eBay item #250216319138 - 1391406 on B-I-N, not particularly cheap but it's the sort of price I'd expect one to go for.  Found it on Google for "IBM 1391406"; it doesn't seem to show up using eBay's search, no idea why...

[iMav]

Stop press: eBay item #250216319138 - 1391406 on B-I-N, not particularly cheap but it's the sort of price I'd expect one to go for.  Found it on Google for "IBM 1391406"; it doesn't seem to show up using eBay's search, no idea why...

What are you waiting for???  

[dw_junon]

What are you waiting for???  

Money?

Actually, I have far more keyboards than I can justify already, I'll see about a list of 'boards in a bit.  Furthermore, and more generally, there's only so much you can fit in to a given space...

[IBI]

Typing the item number into ebay's main page comes up with the same listing to it looks legitimate. While I was hoping to spend a bit less this looks like too good an opportunity to pass up.

[IBI]

Thanks, and I didn't mean to sound crass.

Sorry, I forget to include a smiley. I just found the idea funny . Here are the pictures:

[fkeidjn]

Go for it.  It is a clicky keyboard

[dw_junon]

Typing the item number into ebay's main page comes up with the same listing to it looks legitimate. While I was hoping to spend a bit less this looks like too good an opportunity to pass up.

I can't see any fault with the page, yet it still isn't showing up on any searches; a bug?

You may well be able to get a better price elsewhere, but for the eBay market that is about the going rate, maybe slightly under even.

It is funny after all I said about "101" keys, there it is...

Here are the pictures:

Gateway!  So that's where I'd heard of Maxi Switch...



A very yellow (and still not clean or de-stickered) late AnyKey, 10p from a car boot!



Considerably more boring action though, but with bonus colours (no idea)!

Go for it. It is a clicky keyboard

Aye, 1391406 [UK English International 102] corresponds more or less directly to 1391401 [US English 101].  Who'd have thought it?...

[IBI]

I sent the seller a message, apparently it's not showing up in the ebay list because it's a 'second chance offer' for someone specific. The seller has said that if it's not taken by that person then it will probably go up publicly at around £30.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

What about this?  Surely it's mechanical?

[dw_junon]

I sent the seller a message, apparently it's not showing up in the ebay list because it's a 'second chance offer' for someone specific. The seller has said that if it's not taken by that person then it will probably go up publicly at around £30.

Ah, I guess that explains why it didn't show up.  Odd that there's no mention of it in the listing from eBay or the seller though.

Any word on the AT102W?

What about this? Surely it's mechanical?

Yeah, that looks a reasonable bet.  Hard to say on exactly what switches though, it might be useful to ask the seller about the label.

[IBI]

The seller for the black dell has promised to send me pics of the bottom/label so hopefully I'll get them tomorrow.

PS/2 seems to be dying out and a DIN>USB converter probably isn't going to happen so is it possible to chain together a DIN>PS/2 and a PS/2>USB converter or could I only count on the cherry to work until I got a computer without PS/2?

[dw_junon]

The seller for the black dell has promised to send me pics of the bottom/label so hopefully I'll get them tomorrow.

Ah, cool.

PS/2 seems to be dying out and a DIN>USB converter probably isn't going to happen so is it possible to chain together a DIN>PS/2 and a PS/2>USB converter or could I only count on the cherry to work until I got a computer without PS/2?

As far as IBM was concerned at the time, the change from AT to PS/2 meant a change from scan code set 2 to 3, but almost nobody agreed with them and chose to stay with the AT's set 2, despite adopting the PS/2's 6-pin mini DIN connector.

So as a result, there's nothing to actually convert either way between AT [5-pin DIN] and PS/2 in the generic sense, it's just a pin adapter which you shouldn't have any trouble with at all.  Hey... as it happens, I'm using exactly that chain right now with the HP C1405A (best not to use anything too noisy at this hour here...).

There are issues with some USB adapters primarily involving current drain and other things, but that's another issue.

[fkeidjn]

What about this?  Surely it's mechanical?

Looks like a Cherry MY keyboard.  The back label will surely tell, if there is any.

[xsphat]

Have the seller pull a keycap for you. Some of them will and it never hurts to ask.

[iMav]

Have the seller pull a keycap for you. Some of them will and it never hurts to ask.

Also, instruct the seller on pulling the keycap off PROPERLY.

[IBI]

I've been sent some blurry pictures of the underside of the dell, it's definitely an AT102W, rev A01, made in malaysia. Rather strangely though the power rating on the label seems to read 75ma rather than 275ma.

Both the DS/N and DP/N have the text 10PXP in them and this page lists that dell part as a 'siliteck mechanical - uk midnight grey keyboard' so even though it draws so little power it sounds like it's still some sort of mechanical switch.

Hmm, I've got about an hour to decide whether to put in a bid before I go to bed.

EDIT: As it's pretty much identical to this one on clickykeyboards (It says AT102W instead of AT101W because it's UK layout and the DP/N and DS/N are different) I'm going to put in a bid, hope nobody comes along at the last minute.

[dw_junon]

I'm going to put in a bid, hope nobody comes along at the last minute.

Looks like you were in luck, congrats.

Rather strangely though the power rating on the label seems to read 75ma rather than 275ma.

That is odd.  I wonder if it's a later version or just a typo.  Have you a multimeter?

[IBI]

Yes, I got the dell and I managed to snag the model M when the seller put it back up as a public listing. So much for not spending much . I'll post some pictures when they arrive.

Both the black dell 101s on clickkeyboards have the 75mA sticker so if it was a typo they must have made a lot of them before anyone noticed the mistake.

I do have a multimeter somewhere but I'm not sure where I'd have to measure to get the current.

[IBI]

The AT102W arrived today, although I haven't tried it since it's very dusty. The label definitely says 75mA and there's some sort of springs in there.

How would I get the keycaps off? It is just a case of levering them off or is there a special way to do it?

[iMav]

How would I get the keycaps off? It is just a case of levering them off or is there a special way to do it?

Take two paper clips and bend them into "hooks".  Place them on opposite corners and pull straight up.

I learned that from xsphat.  

You run the risk of damaging something if you try to pry up from the side.

[xsphat]

I learned that from xsphat.  

Glad to help.

[IBI]

You've got strong paper clips over there in America, I bent mine and got them under but pulling up just unbent the paper clips.

I had to resort to prying them off and unfortunatly I did manage to damage something, so my keyboard is now without a left shift key. It's only the keycap that was damaged though, the keyswitch is still working fine. Is there any standard for replacement keycaps or is it specific to each model and I'll have to find another keyboard with identical switches for a replacement keycap?

I haven't measured how many mA is uses but the switches look like mechanical ones (squat black shapes with a big green circuit board on the black) and they do have alps written on them very faintly (and some strange codes like 10BG that are different for a lot of the keyswitches but not unique).

Apart from the two enter keys and backspace the keys on it don't click, I don't know if this is the way it was designed or whether it's just worn out.

[xsphat]

I bought a couple of these and they work pretty well for everything except Alps keys:

http://hooleon.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=AC-312-0049&Category_Code=

[dw_junon]

Yes, I got the dell and I managed to snag the model M when the seller put it back up as a public listing.

Never mind, congrats!

I do have a multimeter somewhere but I'm not sure where I'd have to measure to get the current.

As it's current, you'd want to measure across the keyboard, so you want to get at the +5V and ground lines.  Thinking about it, it might be more trouble than it's worth to do so, though.

How would I get the keycaps off? It is just a case of levering them off or is there a special way to do it?

Take two paper clips and bend them into "hooks". Place them on opposite corners and pull straight up.

Ah, interesting...

You've got strong paper clips over there in America, I bent mine and got them under but pulling up just unbent the paper clips.

But yes, ALPS keycaps are buggers to remove...  Removing them with fingers in quantity is insane.  I recall I used a teaspoon with a flat ended handle to gently start to loosen one side, then move through successive sides until it finally gives way.

Having no teaspoon to hand, I just tried a 10p [circular coin about a inch in diameter] and slotting it the gap above the vicitm key, sliding it under and pushing up, then on either side successively while depressing the neighbouring key seems to work really well.  Evening out the force around the cap is good.  Screwdrivers are generally not such a great idea as it's so easy to make notches when levering.

Actually, a 50p works pretty well too; more leverage and the points can get in somewhat better.  You're going to need narrower than a coin for the function keys, though...

One thing regarding removing keys; NEVER REMOVE A SPACEBAR UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING.  No offence intended at all, but it's a quick way to make a keyboard as good as unusable.  Spacebars often have fancy stabiliser bars that may be impossible to reseat without dismantling the keyboard [IBM 84 key AT and such], or may just break easily if forced.  The Model M's spacebar can be replaced to its original condition without much trouble, but it's still non-trivial compared to the other keys and easy to get wrong the first few times.

This can also apply to any large keys; shifts, enters, backspace, 0 key on number pad, as they may also have such trickery.  Again, where used on early Model Ms (this time also Model Fs), they are relatively easily restored.

I had to resort to prying them off and unfortunatly I did manage to damage something, so my keyboard is now without a left shift key. It's only the keycap that was damaged though, the keyswitch is still working fine. Is there any standard for replacement keycaps or is it specific to each model and I'll have to find another keyboard with identical switches for a replacement keycap?

Darn, that's a shame.  As it's an ALPS switch, any suitably sized keycap for an ALPS switch will fit.

Obtaining single keycaps is not so trivial; places will make keycaps to your requirements but possibly not just one...  There are novelty keycaps with less than serious legends around, if you could somehow confirm what they fit that could be an option.  As you suggest a donor keyboard would certainly work, though the left shift is unique to 102/105 layouts so would be more tricky to find, espcially in black, alas.  Seems that a control or alternate, or windows key would fit the size, though the shape of the keytop is different.

I don't know that you ever could order generic ALPS keys, not a lot of chance now the switch has been discontinued for years; though I believe you can get generic keys for Cherry MX switches (not a lot of use to you know, I know, sorry).

Apart from the two enter keys and backspace the keys on it don't click, I don't know if this is the way it was designed or whether it's just worn out.

Wow, I never considered that.  It does seem hold true on mine, though I can't absolutely sure as the keys vary; the M is slightly clicky, and the C has a comparatively very loud click on release.

This is worth investigating.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

Yeah the ALPS keycaps are a pain (literally) to remove.  I used a bic pen cap to remove mine.  This pen cap is soft plastic, so it didn't leave any indentations on the keycaps.  The whole process is not pretty.  The keycaps twist violently, almost to the breaking point, though they seem to be fine afterwards.  I had numb fingers after a while, though.

[IBI]

The smaller keys actually seem pretty robust, sticking a screwdriver down the side and levering them off seems to have worked fine.

If I need to take any bigger ones off in future I think the preferred method is going to be to slide two bars (e.g. screwdrivers) under the bottom on either side of the keyswitch and lever it up like that so the pressure is even and not too tilted.

The metal bars on this AT102W were actually some of the easiest to get off that I've seen and I can't see many ways I'd manage to do serious accidental damage to them, they're attached to the board with little plastic clips that pop out unharmed if you apply too much pressure.

Getting them in looked like it was going to be tricky though until I realised they were 'upside down' with the split side on the key instead of on the board unlike my previous keyboard. Once I'd turned them over they went back on easily.

[ashort]

The smaller keys actually seem pretty robust, sticking a screwdriver down the side and levering them off seems to have worked fine.

I killed the Return key on my Apple ADB keyboard using the screwdriver method.  Good thing I have two of them (they were CHEAP!)

[iMav]

NEVER REMOVE A SPACEBAR UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

No worries with the Model M's, HHKB's, and the SMK-88's.

[ashort]

One thing regarding removing keys; NEVER REMOVE A SPACEBAR UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

It's a challenge to re-assemble most spacebars, for sure.  The Apple keyboards I've diassembled have had the stabilizer bar and a post that slides up and down on the left side, I guess that's to eliminate yaw (for lack of a better term) in the keycap.  It's trial and error all the way.

The best advice I can give is:  Pay attention to how the freak it's put together in the first place, and don't even think about trying to re-assemble until you have plenty of patience (and in my case, PEACE -- 4 kids) in which to do so.   Lack of patience is what would ruin most of my keyboards on re-assembly.

But...if you want to properly clean it, the spacebar has to come off.