Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[Blaise170]

DSA feels amazing. GMK is meh.

I find uniform profile keycaps unusable. A couple of days ago I've tried some flat keycaps, and I've found it really annoying to reach the qwerty row, because I need to move the fingers much more. And DSA are horrible keycaps, they're made for people that are dead inside.

I hope you never have to use a laptop.

https://us.msi.com/Laptop/GT83VR-TITAN-SLI-6th-Gen-GTX-1080-SLI.html

[ppp]

DSA feels amazing. GMK is meh.

I find uniform profile keycaps unusable. A couple of days ago I've tried some flat keycaps, and I've found it really annoying to reach the qwerty row, because I need to move the fingers much more. And DSA are horrible keycaps, they're made for people that are dead inside.

I hope you never have to use a laptop.

https://us.msi.com/Laptop/GT83VR-TITAN-SLI-6th-Gen-GTX-1080-SLI.html

I vomited a little.

[keylabskeycaps]

Ok, I'll play.

I found the keyboards on Apple's laptops from ~2008-2016 to be pretty enjoyable to type on.

(The current 'touch bar' ones have awful keyboards though)

Thank you! I actually love my 2009 macbook unibody keyboard. For scissor switches, they're honestly pretty good.

[zappysnap]

Ok, I've got one.

Zelios are no better than Cherry Clears. (not that that's a bad thing)

I have had clears on many boards for a while, and decided to get a 60% with 78g Zelios, which felt the best in my switch tester of the weights. They did feel a little smoother, and maybe more tactile when on the switch tester.

Got my board done with the Zeals, and, well...it feels essentially the same as my 60% with clears. Probably a little smoother, but otherwise the same. I mean, that's fine...I really like Clears, but now I know that the price premium for Zelios over clears is just not worth it.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[nguyenhimself]

Ok, I've got one.

Zelios are no better than Cherry Clears. (not that that's a bad thing)

I have had clears on many boards for a while, and decided to get a 60% with 78g Zelios, which felt the best in my switch tester of the weights. They did feel a little smoother, and maybe more tactile when on the switch tester.

Got my board done with the Zeals, and, well...it feels essentially the same as my 60% with clears. Probably a little smoother, but otherwise the same. I mean, that's fine...I really like Clears, but now I know that the price premium for Zelios over clears is just not worth it.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

Isn't that the whole point of Zealio though? Off-the-shell no-hassle-required Ergo-Clear?
I personally find MX Clear too heavy for my fingers, and I don't have time to assemble Ergo Clear, so Zealio is just great

[Blaise170]

Isn't 78g pretty close to stock MX Clear? I was also always under the impression that the original intent for Zeal switches was to get Ergo Clears without all the hassle of spring swapping.

[Chevy_Monsenhor]

Another pet peeve from me, i don't like MX Browns.
When i first joined keyboard communities on some forums i was accustomed to it seemed to the best switch around, the second coming of Christ, everybody praised it for one reason or another (either the "tactility", the sound or the weight).
I never really minded it much, since i was using Kailh Blues and Outemu Blacks at the time, but one day my friend bought a keyboard with Cherry Browns, we both hated it, he ended up returning and picking up the same keyboard but with Cherry Blacks.
First of all, the so called "tactile bump", which is just a speck of dirt on an otherwise linear switch, then the weight, waaaay too light for me.
I do have an Anne Pro with Gateron Browns, but the only reason i bought it is so that i can solder Gateron Blacks to it and sells the Browns with ease, since they are so popular.

[zappysnap]

Isn't 78g pretty close to stock MX Clear? I was also always under the impression that the original intent for Zeal switches was to get Ergo Clears without all the hassle of spring swapping.

It is. It's perhaps a touch lighter but I like heavy switches, so they feel better to me than 67, 65 or such. Still nice, but not $0.80 a switch nice.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[zappysnap]

Another pet peeve from me, i don't like MX Browns.
When i first joined keyboard communities on some forums i was accustomed to it seemed to the best switch around, the second coming of Christ, everybody praised it for one reason or another (either the "tactility", the sound or the weight).
I never really minded it much, since i was using Kailh Blues and Outemu Blacks at the time, but one day my friend bought a keyboard with Cherry Browns, we both hated it, he ended up returning and picking up the same keyboard but with Cherry Blacks.
First of all, the so called "tactile bump", which is just a speck of dirt on an otherwise linear switch, then the weight, waaaay too light for me.
I do have an Anne Pro with Gateron Browns, but the only reason i bought it is so that i can solder Gateron Blacks to it and sells the Browns with ease, since they are so popular.

That's a pretty common opinion around here. There's no real tactility on MX browns, and they're a pretty crap switch overall.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[Blaise170]

Another pet peeve from me, i don't like MX Browns.
When i first joined keyboard communities on some forums i was accustomed to it seemed to the best switch around, the second coming of Christ, everybody praised it for one reason or another (either the "tactility", the sound or the weight).
I never really minded it much, since i was using Kailh Blues and Outemu Blacks at the time, but one day my friend bought a keyboard with Cherry Browns, we both hated it, he ended up returning and picking up the same keyboard but with Cherry Blacks.
First of all, the so called "tactile bump", which is just a speck of dirt on an otherwise linear switch, then the weight, waaaay too light for me.
I do have an Anne Pro with Gateron Browns, but the only reason i bought it is so that i can solder Gateron Blacks to it and sells the Browns with ease, since they are so popular.

Not exactly an unpopular opinion. Plenty of people hate browns.

[davkol]

Idk hate is probably a strong word.

Personally, I don't mind modern (pre-retooling) browns or blacks, they're just not particularly notable imho. I actually hold a similar opinion of Matias Quiet Click (even though they're at least damped quite well), which might be an unpopular stance by itself.

They're like most okay rubber domes: I have no problem using them and will tolerate them depending on keyboard layout.

Then again, my relative indifference towards most switches is probably unpopular in these circles.

[emenelopee]

WASD is a bad system for controlling cursor as it moves your fingers off the home row.

ESDF is much more rational.

Have I posted this before? I think I may have ... =/

[ppp]

WASD is a bad system for controlling cursor as it moves your fingers off the home row.

ESDF is much more rational.

Have I posted this before? I think I may have ... =/

You just blew my mind

[nguyenhimself]

Isn't 78g pretty close to stock MX Clear? I was also always under the impression that the original intent for Zeal switches was to get Ergo Clears without all the hassle of spring swapping.

It is. It's perhaps a touch lighter but I like heavy switches, so they feel better to me than 67, 65 or such. Still nice, but not $0.80 a switch nice.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

Let's say I need 80 Zealio switches for my custom build (plus some spares)

- So that's 80 x $0.8 = $64
- Compared to Cherry or Gateron or Box, so ah, 80 x $0.5 = $40
=> $24 difference :| And I don't need to spend time on switching springs.

Meanwhile, I spend about 8-10 times that on a custom aluminum case and brass plate.
I mean, c'mon

[davkol]

Meanwhile, I spend about 8-10 times that on a custom aluminum case and brass plate.

There's your other problem.

[nguyenhimself]

Meanwhile, I spend about 8-10 times that on a custom aluminum case and brass plate.

There's your other problem.

Where do you think you are, man? I'm not gonna feel ashamed for buying expensive keyboard stuff here of all sites 😆

[emenelopee]

WASD is a bad system for controlling cursor as it moves your fingers off the home row.

ESDF is much more rational.

Have I posted this before? I think I may have ... =/

You just blew my mind

Hopefully in a good way. Reddit didn't like this suggestion. I should have posted a picture of a cat to soothe the controversy.



I guess this is a place for unpopular opinions though ...

[dwasifar]

I'm sure someone has already said this somewhere in the 82 pages of this thread so far, but I don't like backlit keyboards.  What's the point?  You shouldn't need to be looking at it while you're using it anyway.  Conversely, if you DO need to look at the keys, they should be readable without fancy lights.

[emenelopee]

I'm sure someone has already said this somewhere in the 82 pages of this thread so far, but I don't like backlit keyboards.  What's the point?  You shouldn't need to be looking at it while you're using it anyway.  Conversely, if you DO need to look at the keys, they should be readable without fancy lights.

Low light - I don't go for the flashing and lightshows, but if it's dark it's nice to see the letters and icons without needing other ambient lighting. Doubly so with glossy laptop screens that are harder to use with desk lamps and the like. It's like saying everyone should use blanks.

[ppp]

WASD is a bad system for controlling cursor as it moves your fingers off the home row.

ESDF is much more rational.

Have I posted this before? I think I may have ... =/

You just blew my mind

Hopefully in a good way. Reddit didn't like this suggestion. I should have posted a picture of a cat to soothe the controversy.

Show Image

I guess this is a place for unpopular opinions though ...

Dang that's a pretty cool layout.
I think people were probably thinking of gaming? Like I think that having cursor keys for coding/typing or whatever on esdf on a layer sounds cool but wasd makes it easier to reach mods..
Then again if you're a programmer are you really doing it right if you're not using vim keys? /s

[emenelopee]

Then again if you're a programmer are you really doing it right if you're not using vim keys? /s

I can assure you I'm doing many things wrong. Doesn't mean I'm not right 

[Kevadu]

Then again if you're a programmer are you really doing it right if you're not using vim keys? /s

I'm a programmer and a vim user and I hate those damn cursor keys.  Though really you should call them vi keys seeing how vim supports proper arrow keys just fine...

[Altis]

Then again if you're a programmer are you really doing it right if you're not using vim keys? /s

I'm a programmer and a vim user and I hate those damn cursor keys.  Though really you should call them vi keys seeing how vim supports proper arrow keys just fine...

The VIM cursor keys make no sense because of their order. Using HJKL...

<LEFT> <DOWN> <UP> <RIGHT>  give you [back] [forward] [back] [forward], since the down arrow advances. I can't get used to this setup.

<LEFT> <UP> <DOWN> <RIGHT> would be much more natural as it pairs them in back/forward. I got used to this immediately.

[ideus]

Then again if you're a programmer are you really doing it right if you're not using vim keys? /s

I'm a programmer and a vim user and I hate those damn cursor keys.  Though really you should call them vi keys seeing how vim supports proper arrow keys just fine...

The VIM cursor keys make no sense because of their order. Using HJKL...

<LEFT> <DOWN> <UP> <RIGHT>  give you [back] [forward] [back] [forward], since the down arrow advances. I can't get used to this setup.

<LEFT> <UP> <DOWN> <RIGHT> would be much more natural as it pairs them in back/forward. I got used to this immediately.

I use Space FN with arrow cursor keys mapped on IJKL and it works like a charm.

[davkol]

One important thing about hjkl in vi is that they're not "arrows", they're "direction commands" that can be quantified, combined and repeated with other commands.

[nguyenhimself]

I'm sure someone has already said this somewhere in the 82 pages of this thread so far, but I don't like backlit keyboards.  What's the point?  You shouldn't need to be looking at it while you're using it anyway.  Conversely, if you DO need to look at the keys, they should be readable without fancy lights.

I find it weird that there are people in this very forum who still think keyboards are just utilities and nothing more.
I don't buy red cars because red makes my cars go faster and safer. I just think red cars look more fun and exciting. Also, I like red, and nobody is gonna chane my mind on that.
Same idea here, man.

[ideus]

I'm sure someone has already said this somewhere in the 82 pages of this thread so far, but I don't like backlit keyboards.  What's the point?  You shouldn't need to be looking at it while you're using it anyway.  Conversely, if you DO need to look at the keys, they should be readable without fancy lights.

I find it weird that there are people in this very forum who still think keyboards are just utilities and nothing more.
I don't buy red cars because red makes my cars go faster and safer. I just think red cars look more fun and exciting. Also, I like red, and nobody is gonna chane my mind on that.
Same idea here, man.

Truth be told: Keyboards are utilitarian devices. It just happens that these utilities are very important, for some of us.

[dwasifar]

I'm sure someone has already said this somewhere in the 82 pages of this thread so far, but I don't like backlit keyboards.  What's the point?  You shouldn't need to be looking at it while you're using it anyway.  Conversely, if you DO need to look at the keys, they should be readable without fancy lights.

I find it weird that there are people in this very forum who still think keyboards are just utilities and nothing more.
I don't buy red cars because red makes my cars go faster and safer. I just think red cars look more fun and exciting. Also, I like red, and nobody is gonna chane my mind on that.
Same idea here, man.

Well, this thread is "Unpopular Keyboard Opinions."  Why would you expect it to contain majority views? 

I understand your opinion, though I don't share it, necessarily.  That's not to say I don't care about aesthetics, but my tastes are different.  "Fun and exciting" is not what appeals to me in a keyboard; to me, it feels like frippery.  "Clean, uncluttered, and retro" is more my taste.  My two main keyboards are Model M's.  I just bought a Cherry G80-3000, which is about as plain and basic as you can get, and if I put new keycaps on it, which I might, I'd be looking for PBT in an old-school typewriter or terminal design.  I'd really like to have a Model M silver label Industrial, but I can't justify the cost.

[dwasifar]

I find it weird that there are people in this very forum who still think keyboards are just utilities and nothing more.

Truth be told: Keyboards are utilitarian devices. It just happens that these utilities are very important, for some of us.

I'll go along with that.  I'd prefer a keyboard not to be actively ugly, but my primary focus is always going to be on functionality.  How does it feel?  How well does it work for me?  Those are more important than eye candy.

The point's been made that backlighting aids functionality in low light.  Fair enough, if you're in that situation a lot.  But the only time I'm really in that situation is when using my laptop in bed after my wife has gone to sleep (like right now), and even with the dark-themed geekhack page up, the display still emits enough light to see the keys with the backlight off.  And again, I don't look at them anyway.  So while I guess I can see why someone might want backlighting in the specific situation of  a) Very low light and  b) Not a touch typist, that someone would not be me.

So I guess you'd probably class me as a basic utilitarian user, and not style conscious except in the "industrial design" sense of style.

[emenelopee]

Off-shelf builds. I just put together (mostly) a DZ60. It was a chore picking the correct component parts, a pain figuring out the positions of the switches and stabilisers in the swiss cheese pcb and universal plate, and the anodyne experience of the build. I was so uninvested I did it mostly standing up between other things.

Ground-up custom was much more fun and invigorating, and I learned a few things along the way.

[MajorKoos]

I've have 3 Novatouch keyboards and love them all.
Yesterday my 55g RF87U arrived in preparation of my Norbaforce build.
Feels exactly like an over-hyper rubber dome keyboard to me.
At least I have some spare domes from a NT so perhaps it's salvageable?

[Darthbaggins]

WASD is a bad system for controlling cursor as it moves your fingers off the home row.

ESDF is much more rational.

Have I posted this before? I think I may have ... =/

WASD is a bad system for controlling cursor as it moves your fingers off the home row.

ESDF is much more rational.

Have I posted this before? I think I may have ... =/

You just blew my mind

WASD is a bad system for controlling cursor as it moves your fingers off the home row.

ESDF is much more rational.

Have I posted this before? I think I may have ... =/

You just blew my mind

Just blew my mind as well, never even thought about it until it was mentioned and makes logical sense

[nguyenhimself]

WASD is a bad system for controlling cursor as it moves your fingers off the home row.

ESDF is much more rational.

Have I posted this before? I think I may have ... =/

Eh I disagree.

If it's for gaming, home row doesn't really matter, and WASD is closer to the bigger CapsLock key, making it easier to feel without looking. Also, it's less stressful to move the ring finger from A to 1 or Tab (weapon switching and such).

If it's for normal computing, I guess it would be Fn/Hyper/Control+WASD with the Fn/Hyper/Control key being where the CapsLock is, in which case, same as above. WASD is closer to CapsLock than ESDF.

[iaso]

Here are 3 of my popular opinions.

1. I never liked Buckling Spring.

2. Also there are plenty of rubber dome boards that are superior to some mechanical keyboards. (Not talking about Topre).

3. Spending more than $5 on a single keycap makes you an idiot. Spending more than $50 on one makes you ready for psychiatric care.

[ppp]

WASD is a bad system for controlling cursor as it moves your fingers off the home row.

ESDF is much more rational.

Have I posted this before? I think I may have ... =/

Eh I disagree.

If it's for gaming, home row doesn't really matter, and WASD is closer to the bigger CapsLock key, making it easier to feel without looking. Also, it's less stressful to move the ring finger from A to 1 or Tab (weapon switching and such).

If it's for normal computing, I guess it would be Fn/Hyper/Control+WASD with the Fn/Hyper/Control key being where the CapsLock is, in which case, same as above. WASD is closer to CapsLock than ESDF.

Gaming, I agree wasd is probably better because of the constant ctrl/shift usage, 123 num row, etc.

For normal computing, I feel like it shines for people who have a Fn layer on their left split space bar.

[davkol]

Just use ESDF.

Or IJKL, duh.

[hervuli]

SDFC ftw.

[Blaise170]

I'm failing to see how SDFC could be used without completely contorting your hand.

[hervuli]

I'm failing to see how SDFC could be used without completely contorting your hand.

usually C is hit with the index finger rather than the middle finger, which is a perfectly natural motion. the downside is then it's a bit awkward to use F and C simultaneously, but I've managed to train myself to use my middle finger on C if I need to do that. the upside is similar to ESDF, fingers on the home row and quicker access to more letter keys for additional key bindings.

probably there's no rational argument for SDFC over ESDF, but it's what I taught myself back in the days of OG Doom and these things are hard to unlearn

[Altis]

I'm failing to see how SDFC could be used without completely contorting your hand.

usually C is hit with the index finger rather than the middle finger, which is a perfectly natural motion. the downside is then it's a bit awkward to use F and C simultaneously, but I've managed to train myself to use my middle finger on C if I need to do that. the upside is similar to ESDF, fingers on the home row and quicker access to more letter keys for additional key bindings.

probably there's no rational argument for SDFC over ESDF, but it's what I taught myself back in the days of OG Doom and these things are hard to unlearn

So the same finger would be used for RIGHT and BACK? That wouldn't be natural at all.

The whole reason WASD and ESDF work well is because with 3 fingers for 4 keys, the FWD and BACK are the ones that share a finger as you would never use both at the same time. But you very regularly use LEFT or RIGHT with FWD and BACK.

I don't find ESDF works any better than WASD anyways because moving my pinky to use the QAZ keys is too slow for me, generally. I suppose it could get quicker if I stuck with it, but I haven't yet played an FPS that required more keys/buttons than was readily available with WASD.

[Blaise170]

I could maybe see using a single row like ASDF or something but Altis basically gave my reasons for my hand contortion comment.

[rich1051414]

I will reserve my judgement. I remember when half-life came out(the original), it had this weird alien 'WASD' movement scheme, and I immediately rebound that garbage control scheme. Then one day after a reinstall, I was lazy and didn't rebind it, and then I learned what I was missing not using WASD. The rest is history. I am sure there are even better control schemes than this I just haven't forced myself to learn yet.

[vitalious]

I can't stand non-standard keyboard layouts. This is why I want to sell the Lightsaver V1 my friend gifted me and buy a full layout keyboard.

[nguyenhimself]

I can't stand non-standard keyboard layouts. This is why I want to sell the Lightsaver V1 my friend gifted me and buy a full layout keyboard.

It's definitely a super personal thing. Ever since high-school my main computer has been MacBooks, which have a kinda-sorta-75% layout, so anything bigger than that looks gigantic to me.

[rich1051414]

I recommend a silicone protector to save your laptop when you spill your starbucks coffee in it. jk

I am from a different time with different values regarding tech, so just ignore this old guy.

[nguyenhimself]

I recommend a silicone protector to save your laptop when you spill your starbucks coffee in it. jk

I am from a different time with different values regarding tech, so just ignore this old guy.

It's weird that you feel the need to make fun of my working laptops and group me into a boring stereotype when I'm already here, at a mechanical keyboard forum. Guess I have to go buy an old Thinkpad right away to reaffirm my leetness 

[emenelopee]

You **** one goat, always a goat****er.

NB: this is a response to nguyen, not an unpopular opinion I'm sharing. And it was ONE TIME, jeez.

[nguyenhimself]

You **** one goat, always a goat****er.

NB: this is a response to nguyen, not an unpopular opinion I'm sharing. And it was ONE TIME, jeez.

It's cool man. Just as most of us started from the bottom with crappy keyboards, it's perfectly fine for you to do the same in picking your perfect life partner 

[jcoffin1981]

I got down-voted to oblivion over on /r when I pointed out the multiple ways that HHKB is lame.  I mean… awkward layout, missing keys, missing legends, glorified rubbeh domes, and most of the ones I see posted have an ugly and impractical artisan lodged on the corner.  And yet somehow people keep putting these things on a pedestal as if they were the ultimate flag-bearers of 60% keyboard design.

The huge appeal of the HHKB to most is the Ctrl and Backspace positioning.  Once I got used to it (particularly Backspace) I started reprogramming my other boards to mimic the layout. 

Sure there are missing keys in the corners, but that's for ergonomics more than anything.  Better to use a function layer than contort your hands to reach the keys. 

Which legends do you find are missing?  I haven't encountered issues with that before. 

All that said, yeah, the layout isn't perfect and neither is the board.  But there is no such thing as a perfect layout anyway, so people find the best for their needs and go with that.  For many, that's the HHKB.

Layout wise, less is more. The empty spaces in the happy layout create two extra corners that make the keys at the four bottom corners easier to activate. I use variations of the happy layout and I really cannot get back to the traditional fully populated layout, without having issues to activate some keys; plus, the easier access to activate the backspace and the control keys. Also, it should be noted that corner keys at the bottom of the alpha layout in fully populated boards are very hard to reach from the home position.

Control and backspace are better placed, but you sacrifice the Fn position and make it awkward.  Also, using the arrow keys with the same hand you need to access the Fn layer?  I will say looks alone this is my favorite board- size, aesthetics of layout, and color schemes.  I don't own one but have considered it.

[ScottPaladin]

Man, I just don't get artisans.They're out of profile for the other keys. They're expensive. They ruin the look of a board. I just can't wrap my head around the appeal. Novelty legends on a regular key are cool, but I can't imagine having a little bumpy (usually convex) thing on my otherwise orderly keyboard.