Help me choose a decent keyboard

[wap32]

I've started touch typing for a while and I'm feeling the need for a decent keyboard, I'd like to try mechanical, but I'm not sure I can afford one.
Here's what I'm looking for:

 -European 105 layout ('L' shaped enter), don't care about the markings
 -Available shipped to Portugal, preferably from Europe.
 -Tenkeyless would be nice, HHKB-like would be perfect, but I'd prefer a good full-size board to a mediocre small one.
 -Didn't really want to spend more than ~70€.

I considered the Filco Zero Tenkeyless (70€ shipped from The Keyboard Company), but it only comes in US layout.

For about ~€70 I know there aren't many options, but if I can't go mechanical, I'd settle for a decent rubber dome.

Do you guys have any suggestions?

[Morning Song]

The fullsize Filcos are available in 105-key ISO layouts. (I have a UK-marked one on the shelf behind me right now), and are nice keyboards. And i think pretty soon, Keyboardco is going to start selling Topre Realforce boards. They have the same switch as the HHKB, but with more standard layouts.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=9242 would seem to indicate that there are plans to come out with a tenkeyless ISO board next year, if you can wait that long.

[Lenny_Nero]

The tenkeyless Zero from The Keyboard Company is a great deal IMO.
I got one,  and I think it has been one of the few boards that I swap to and stick with for ages.

But I am a big ALPS switch fan, as for the layout there is not much that is really that different, I use mine with the OS thinking it is a UK layout and its the shifted 2 and 3 and a few round the return that are switched, the only real problem is the backslash, or lack of it, but I have posted the many ways round that before.

Or just use it as is you will miss the £ and euro symbols IIRC,
either way I dont think you can get anything of better (or even the same) quality for the price without going second hand and being lucky.

That said if you dont want to spend quite a bit of money stick with the board you have and stay away from this place
I only had six mechanical boards before I found this place ....that is not the case now.

[wap32]

The fullsize Filcos are available in 105-key ISO layouts.
[...]

The problem with buying a full-size Filco is that it would cost about 150€ shipped, a little too much for me.

The tenkeyless Zero from The Keyboard Company is a great deal IMO.
I got one,  and I think it has been one of the few boards that I swap to and stick with for ages.

But I am a big ALPS switch fan, as for the layout there is not much that is really that different, I use mine with the OS thinking it is a UK layout and its the shifted 2 and 3 and a few round the return that are switched, the only real problem is the backslash, or lack of it, but I have posted the many ways round that before.

Or just use it as is you will miss the £ and euro symbols IIRC,
either way I dont think you can get anything of better (or even the same) quality for the price without going second hand and being lucky.

That said if you dont want to spend quite a bit of money stick with the board you have and stay away from this place
I only had six mechanical boards before I found this place ....that is not the case now.

My problem with the US layout is the wider Enter key, or rather the lack of a 3rd key after 'L'.
On a Portuguese layout, this is where the tilde is and since it gets used a lot, when I'm reaching for a ~, I'll press enter instead (I've tried a KB with a US layout before and this was really bothering). Maybe it's a matter of habit, but it's still very annoying.

On the other hand, I realize that the Zero is probably one of the best deals I'll find for a new mechanical keyboard.

Would it be possible to mod the Filco to have a reverse 'L' shaped enter, and move the backslash down one row, next to the ' key?
I'm guessing that even if I was able to drill the PCB in order to accommodate the switches on the right places, I'd have a hard time finding the right keycaps...

[sam113101]

I'm a french Canadian and only ISO keyboards are available out there. I wanted a ISO mechanical keyboard too, but I ended up with an ANSI one.

My point of view*:

-I press enter more often that I press the key to the left of the enter (on an ISO layout). On a ANSI layout, the enter key is easier to reach.
-I'd use the left shift key more often that I would use the 105th key (I just don't use it). The ANSI layout makes the left shift key easier to reach, because it is bigger.
-The ANSI layout is more comfortable and is nicer, because every key uses only one row.
-More keys doesn't mean faster, it just means more comfusing.

I didn't know if I'd like the ANSI layout, I was used to the ISO one. Turns out I prefer the ANSI one because it's more comfortable and makes touch typing easier. I ordered a ANSI keyboard for my netbook because it has an ISO one since I'm a french Canadian, just to show you how I like it.

It takes a little time to adapt, but it is worth it.
Oh, also, most of mechanical keyboards use the ANSI layout.
It is easier to adapt to the ANSI layout than looking for a ISO mechanical keyboard ;p

EDIT*: try the layout on a cheap keyboard before buying something, you'll see if you like it or not

[wap32]

I'm a french Canadian and only ISO keyboards are available out there. I wanted a ISO mechanical keyboard too, but I ended up with an ANSI one.

My point of view*:

-I press enter more often that I press the key to the left of the enter (on an ISO layout). On a ANSI layout, the enter key is easier to reach.
-I'd use the left shift key more often that I would use the 105th key (I just don't use it). The ANSI layout makes the left shift key easier to reach, because it is bigger.
-The ANSI layout is more comfortable and is nicer, because every key uses only one row.
-More keys doesn't mean faster, it just means more comfusing.

Well, I'm sure that eventually I would get used to it, but it's still very annoying.

I didn't know if I'd like the ANSI layout, I was used to the ISO one. Turns out I prefer the ANSI one because it's more comfortable and makes touch typing easier. I ordered a ANSI keyboard for my netbook because it has an ISO one since I'm a french Canadian, just to show you how I like it.

That's another problem, I'd be using ANSI at home, but nowhere else, when working at the university or on my laptop (or on any other computer for that matter) I'd be back to ISO and I'm not sure how I'd handle the constant switching.

It takes a little time to adapt, but it is worth it.
Oh, also, most of mechanical keyboards use the ANSI layout.
It is easier to adapt to the ANSI layout than looking for a ISO mechanical keyboard ;p

EDIT*: try the layout on a cheap keyboard before buying something, you'll see if you like it or not

Unfortunately that is very true and is the most persuading argument. There aren't many ISO mechanical keyboards (that I know of), much less affordable ones.

I did try one before (it was actually an ANSI key layout with Portuguese markings) and I never really liked it that much. Although to be fair, it was a pretty crappy keyboard and I never used it that much.

What about rubber domes, are there any decent models, or aren't they even worth considering?

[Morning Song]

What about rubber domes, are there any decent models, or aren't they even worth considering?

There are decent rubber dome boards out there, but we specialize in mechanical boards

[Superfluous Parentheses]

I think Sixty in the classifieds had a bunch of cherry brown boards with a trackball for a decent price. Those are with German legends, and I'm not sure if the physical layout is exactly the same as the Spanish one, or if you can switch the key caps across different rows on that board, but they may work for you if you're a touch typist.

See: http://geekhack.org/classifieds.php?do=showad&adid=461&title=eude-compaq-cherry-mx-11800

EDIT: I just noticed that the ISO boards in that thread have been sold already. Dunno about the US/ANSI ones, if you want to change your muscle memory.

As for rubber dome boards, the Key Tronic boards are pretty good for rubber, but new ones will probably not be cheap shipped to Europe, and I would really only recommend them second hand. You can probably get a good second hand Model M for much less than a new Key Tronic, and Model M boards are really a lot better.

[wap32]

I think Sixty in the classifieds had a bunch of cherry brown boards with a trackball for a decent price. Those are with German legends, and I'm not sure if the physical layout is exactly the same as the Spanish one, or if you can switch the key caps across different rows on that board, but they may work for you if you're a touch typist.

See: http://geekhack.org/classifieds.php?do=showad&adid=461&title=eude-compaq-cherry-mx-11800

As for rubber dome boards, the Key Tronic boards are pretty good, but new ones will probably not be cheap shipped to Europe.

Yes, the key layout is what I'm looking for (although I could use a Win key), if only they weren't that ugly.
I'm just not sure I have enough desk space for a keyboard that long.

But 25€ for Cherry browns, it's a very nice deal, I'm going to take it into serious consideration.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Yes, the key layout is what I'm looking for (although I could use a Win key), if only they weren't that ugly.
I'm just not sure I have enough desk space for a keyboard that long.

But 25€ for Cherry browns, it's a very nice deal, I'm going to take it into serious consideration.

As I said I my update that you may have missed, please note that the German/ISO layout boards on that deal have already been sold. But as far as I can see they're not bigger than any full-sized board; probably less wide: note the position of the cursor keys and numeric key pad.

[wap32]

As I said I my update that you may have missed, please note that the German/ISO layout boards on that deal have already been sold. But as far as I can see they're not bigger than any full-sized board; probably less wide: note the position of the cursor keys and numeric key pad.

Well, bummer, so much for an ISO layout.

The problem isn't the wideness, it's how long they are because of the two F* rows (maybe long isn't the word I'm looking for).
My desk space is a little limited in that matter.

If only they weren't that ugly, it would be an easy decision over the Filco.

For typing and a little gaming now and then, how much better are the Cherry browns?
Or is it more a matter of preference for tactile clicky/non-clicky?

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Well, bummer, so much for an ISO layout.

The problem isn't the wideness, it's how long they are because of the two F* rows (maybe long isn't the word I'm looking for).
My desk space is a little limited in that matter.

Ok, I see what you mean. I must say that my model M board is at least as "high" as that (it's got a ****load of extra body at the top above the F keys)

If only they weren't that ugly, it would be an easy decision over the Filco.

For typing and a little gaming now and then, how much better are the Cherry browns?

Compared to what? See below

Or is it more a matter of preference for tactile clicky/non-clicky?

I'm not a gamer. As far as I know from here, cherry browns are non-clicky, subly tactile and only slightly less linear than cherry blacks (which are one of the preferred gamer switches). Some people really seem to like them for typing (but they are quite light and others prefer heavier switches with a more pronounced tactile point, like buckling springs or cherry blues), and for gaming they are apparently at least decent.

[wap32]

[...]
Compared to what? See below

Sorry, I meant compared to the Filco Zero.

I'm not a gamer. As far as I know from here, cherry browns are non-clicky, subly tactile and only slightly less linear than cherry blacks. Some people really seem to like them for typing (but they are quite light and others prefer heavier switches with a more pronounced tactile point, like buckling springs or cherry blues), and for gaming they are apparently at least decent.

Well, my experience with mechanical keyboards is very brief (used a buckling spring board for a little while some years ago), so I'm not really sure what I'd like best.

I liked the tactile feedback of the buckling spring, but not so much of the clicking.