A look at the evolution and commercialization of the ErgoDox

[trauring]

Some thoughts on the evolution and commercialization of the ErgoDox keyboard, particularly in light of the launch of the ErgoDox EZ campaign last  week and the launch of the MassDrop Infinity ErgoDox today:

http://trauring.org/the-evolution-and-commercialization-of-the-ergodox-keyboard/

[jacobolus]

(Sorry to go off topic, but..) Your webpage won’t let me select text. Instead it just pops up some bull**** tweet button. What the ****? Seriously people, stop breaking basic browser interactions.

[jacobolus]

Okay, I finished reading. You have some typos I was going to quote at you, but I can’t select text, so...

I’m not quite sure what your point is. Or rather, there are multiple different points (short history of the ergodox, some recommendations for the ergodox-ez people, ...), but without a coherent organization pattern. Who is your intended audience for this blog post?

(Sorry to sound negative. I’m not trying to rain on any parades, I’m just confused as a reader.)

[trauring]

What browser are you using? I've tried three browsers and all let me select text without a problem. There is a twitter icon that pops up when you select text, but if you don't click on it it shouldn't do anything, and certainly shouldn't prevent you from copying the text.

As far as what the post is about, it's really just musing about how the ErgoDox went from a personal project to a mass-market product, and how it has done so. Some people probably think it's great that it's being mass-produced, some people probably hate it. I thought it was interesting that two new versions of the ErgoDox launched in the last week, and wanted to comment on it. That's it.

[jacobolus]

Well, now that I refresh the page, the selecting isn’t quite as totally broken. Now 1/3 of the time I get the selection with the little annoying tweet button popping up, 1/3 the time I get no selection with the little tweet button, and 1/3 the time I get the selection with no tweet button (by far the best of the three). Safari 7.1.3 on OS X 10.9.5.

[Matias]

Good summary for anyone not familiar with how the ErgoDox came about.  Thanks for posting it.

Okay, I finished reading. You have some typos I was going to quote at you, but I can't select text, so...

If you turn off JavaScript in your browser, you can select text without issues.

[HaaTa]

Nice article. I enjoyed reading it.

For the original Infinity, the most important (sleeper) feature was the KLL.
The Infinity ErgoDox, I'd say the most important feature is the interconnect. I intend to support it going into the future with things like adding a numpad to the ergodox, but being able to synchronize macros, led animations, lcd display information, etc.

When I found out about the ErgoDox EZ campaign, I felt a bit bad because we've been officially working on this re-design since January (un-officially I've been thinking about it for over a year now). As you mentioned, everything is opensourced, the ErgoDox EZ group can take all our designs (we'll release them as soon as we ship) and use that instead. I don't really have any problems with this.
Manufacturing is hard, I'm sure Matias can attest to that, even if you have everything given to you on a silver platter.

Personally, I'm tired of keyboards being stuck in the 80s and am trying to give the industry a big kick in the behind.

[Den441]

Nice article. I enjoyed reading it.

For the original Infinity, the most important (sleeper) feature was the KLL.
The Infinity ErgoDox, I'd say the most important feature is the interconnect. I intend to support it going into the future with things like adding a numpad to the ergodox, but being able to synchronize macros, led animations, lcd display information, etc.

When I found out about the ErgoDox EZ campaign, I felt a bit bad because we've been officially working on this re-design since January (un-officially I've been thinking about it for over a year now). As you mentioned, everything is opensourced, the ErgoDox EZ group can take all our designs (we'll release them as soon as we ship) and use that instead. I don't really have any problems with this.
Manufacturing is hard, I'm sure Matias can attest to that, even if you have everything given to you on a silver platter.

Personally, I'm tired of keyboards being stuck in the 80s and am trying to give the industry a big kick in the behind.

Keep up the good work. I would like a numpad add-on myself.  One feature I would like to see someday are those RGB led strips some korea keyboards use for underlighting. There is still so much potential out there with these. I'm working on some ergo-dox wrist rests myself.

[HaaTa]

RGB led strings are quite easy to implement.
These are actually a much harder product design/mechanical problem which is why we decided not to go through with that for this drop (already enough product complexities).

I definitely wouldn't rule out features like this in future keyboards.

[hwood34]

Interesting read man

[trauring]

HaaTa, the interconnect is definitely interesting. I assume there is not a place in this version of the Infinity ErgoDox to connect another device like a number pad though, right? or is there a second interconnect location on each module? Is there a spec somewhere on the interconnect and the protocol?

It's not your fault, but I guess if you guys had waited a few more weeks to launch, it might have helped out the EZ folk to reach their campaign goal. I think they just added back their early-bird pricing at $190 with blank keycaps to try to get more people to sign up. I estimate they need just over a hundred more people to hit their goal, so maybe they can do it. While you still need to solder the Infinity ErgoDox, you definitely made it easier by only requiring soldering the switches (and optionally the LEDs). That opened up the design to more people, which draws some away from the ErgoDox EZ. It also eliminated some uncertainly in quality of the keyboards, which there is no question had variable quality based on the soldering capabilities of their owners (soldering the Teensy, the USB connection and the TRRS sockets is more difficult than soldering the switches). For those who can't/won't solder, it doesn't change much, although maybe some people don't want a design they now see as out-of-date. They're still the only game in town if you want a warranty and a completely factory-built unit, so there should be people who will want that.

It's my opinion that it's always better to have more options, and I'm glad that FalbaTech and Mechanical Keyboards offer PCBs and components for the ErgoDox, and I hope the ErgoDox EZ folk succeed in offering one more option in the keyboard ecosystem.

[jacobolus]

I’m extremely skeptical that the Ergodox-EZ people will be able to meet their goals (or even meet their promises in any kind of timely fashion), but I also hope they succeed.

[HaaTa]

HaaTa, the interconnect is definitely interesting. I assume there is not a place in this version of the Infinity ErgoDox to connect another device like a number pad though, right? or is there a second interconnect location on each module? Is there a spec somewhere on the interconnect and the protocol?

I planned the interconnect so you could add a numpad It's a daisy chain interface that uses two UARTs per node.
I haven't entirely finalized the protocol yet (hence no spec, yet), but I do have some of the initial code pushed (https://github.com/kiibohd/controller/tree/master/Scan/UARTConnect). I want to get the base protocol well tested first before adding some of the more complicated parts of the protocol (like capability reporting, useful for address arbitrary LCD screens).

[KHAANNN]

offtopic
a trackball add-on would be interesting, ergodox would be used for the clicks and scrolls. like an ergo ball add-on that just adds the ball

[vvp]

HaaTa, I like you added an LCD. To me, it looks like almost like a must for a programmable keyboard with more layers.

[KHAANNN]

a speaking keyboard would be cooler tho :D

[HaaTa]

a speaking keyboard would be cooler tho

Who said I wasn't working on that

[Novus]

Computer query gentleman's entertainment theme star trek
Did you mean the ^{the voyage home} or _{the final frontier} or The Undiscovered Country

opps* ^crap _{how do i mute this thing}

[vvp]

with ear plugs
of course

[Matias]

When I found out about the ErgoDox EZ campaign, I felt a bit bad because we've been officially working on this re-design since January (un-officially I've been thinking about it for over a year now). As you mentioned, everything is opensourced, the ErgoDox EZ group can take all our designs (we'll release them as soon as we ship) and use that instead. I don't really have any problems with this.

You should not feel bad.  You've done them (and the community) a tremendous service by open sourcing your design.

If they're smart, they will add your new design as another (more expensive) purchase option.  This can work out very well for them, if they play their cards right.

Manufacturing is hard, I'm sure Matias can attest to that, even if you have everything given to you on a silver platter.

Yes, this is true.  It's like making a movie...  You can have the best script in the world and still screw it up. 

Personally, I'm tired of keyboards being stuck in the 80s and am trying to give the industry a big kick in the behind.

100% agree.

[trauring]

Interestingly the ErgoDox EZ campaign jumped in the last few days to $41,482. It seems likely now that they will complete their campaign. I wonder where their new group of supporters came from. I think they added printed keycaps as an option, and it's possible that brought in more support, although they've been surprisingly opaque about the perk changes they've been making. I would think those changes would be posted as updates, but they've had exactly zero updates. I'm happy to see that they will make it though.

[KHAANNN]

Interestingly the ErgoDox EZ campaign jumped in the last few days to $41,482. It seems likely now that they will complete their campaign. I wonder where their new group of supporters came from. I think they added printed keycaps as an option, and it's possible that brought in more support, although they've been surprisingly opaque about the perk changes they've been making. I would think those changes would be posted as updates, but they've had exactly zero updates. I'm happy to see that they will make it though.

Not everyone researches heavily before buying, so they might be tapping an unaware market, who might later on regret not getting an infinity version

I also noticed this issue with the Infinity Keyboard, although it's a beautiful 60%, it doesn't sell as much as it should, I think it's because a lot of people prefer printed keycaps
With those feature set it should sell 1000's, yet it stayed at ~300's

MassDrop's reach also seems to be mostly limited to niche communities, that's an issue too, which I think will solve itself

[skullydazed]

MassDrop's reach also seems to be mostly limited to niche communities, that's an issue too, which I think will solve itself

They limit their audience as long as they hide everything behind a login wall. Sure you can add magic to the end of the URL to open it, but how many people know how to do that?

[KHAANNN]

MassDrop's reach also seems to be mostly limited to niche communities, that's an issue too, which I think will solve itself

They limit their audience as long as they hide everything behind a login wall. Sure you can add magic to the end of the URL to open it, but how many people know how to do that?

That makes a lot of sense, as in, what they do is pretty stupid, their reddit bot also started getting on my nerves

I'm sure the reasoning is increased signups + retention, since they email everyone everyday, they want to get people's details, yet on a higher level, it's illogical, since they are selling actual products that are viral on their own, they don't need to trap people like that

[davkol]

If they didn't require login, they wouldn't get the deals with manufacturers. Period. It's that simple.

[vvp]

Why?

[davkol]

Why does everyone need to create an account to see the site?

In order to offer the lowest possible prices, we are required to be a members only site by a large number of our vendors. This allows us to list great products for the community while keeping our vendors happy. It's the same reason why you need to show your membership card before you walk into Costco, even if you aren't buying anything.

[vvp]

I still do not understand why many of their vendors require it. What do the vendors have from it?
Maybe the vendors want so that the clients do not find some discounted prices on massdrop so easily. And they think robots.txt is not enough for that. So maybe an attempt to segment market to sell the same stuff for different prices. But re-sellers of a vendor can create a massdrop account and check the prices anyway.
It might be about massdrop selling tracking data to vendors, but simple cookies work for this too (I doubt enough people are regularly cleaning cookies for this to be ineffective).

[jacobolus]

MassDrop is paying wholesale prices, and then selling to customers for less than normal retail price. The reason they can get away with it is they claim to be a “buyer’s club”, with such deals only accessible to members.

Other retailers are forced by manufacturers to charge retail prices. The difference between wholesale and retail prices is what pays for retailers to keep inventory, pay rent on physical stores, hire staff, handle returns, deal with customers, etc. If anyone could buy a product for any price the retailer wanted to sell it for, then retailers would get into a race to the bottom, and traditional retailers would end up with no margins. (Arguably, the internet has made this happen already.) Many retailers are only going to agree to stock products if they have a fair shot at selling them, which they won’t be able to do if someone can trivially find a cheaper price; thus it’s in the manufacturer’s interest, assuming they want to have their products stay on shelves, to not let people undercut retail prices.

The whole thing is basically exploiting a loophole in the way these supplier–retailer deals are currently set up.

[skullydazed]

If they didn't require login, they wouldn't get the deals with manufacturers. Period. It's that simple.

I don't think they have to require login to make their vendors happy, it's just the way they've chosen to do it. I happen to think they'd have been better off choosing another method (EG, show the product but don't show the price unless you're logged in) but obviously I didn't get to make that choice.

[vvp]

Ach, right, I understand it now. So it is actually retailers who are forcing vendors into a kind of price fixing. And that price fixing can be worked around by a "club members only" argument. Huh. Thanks.

[jacobolus]

Exactly. I’m not sure if there’s a great source explaining how retail pricing deals work. I’m not an expert, and the relevant Wikipedia page spends a bit of time discussing US legal precedent about whether price agreements violate anti-trust laws, but doesn’t very comprehensively discuss the subject more generally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance If you google for "resale price maintenance" you’ll find plenty of sources from economists and legal scholars, but still not much about the nitty gritty of typical modern practices.

[pushcx]

I planned the interconnect so you could add a numpad It's a daisy chain interface that uses two UARTs per node.
I haven't entirely finalized the protocol yet (hence no spec, yet), but I do have some of the initial code pushed (https://github.com/kiibohd/controller/tree/master/Scan/UARTConnect). I want to get the base protocol well tested first before adding some of the more complicated parts of the protocol (like capability reporting, useful for address arbitrary LCD screens).

The Ergodox Infinity looks great, can I quiz you a bit? 

From one pic on Massdrop I see a USB 3 standard A and micro B. Which is the interconnect? Why not use standard A everywhere so all the cables are interchangeable?

What's the resolution of the LCD display? Do you have a spec sheet you could share?

Could you share any pictures of the LCD display on and displaying something? Poking around the GitHub repo I don't see driver support yet, so I could go hit Google Images with a part number.

Congrats on launching the group buy, and good luck with your driver code.

[HaaTa]

Haha, np.

Yeah, it's USB standard A and micro B.
The micro B port is special, in that it has two purposes:
1) USB 2.0 data connection to host computer
2) Keyboard interconnect in the leaf node direction (this is a daisy chain interface)

The standard A connectors only have Vcc, Gnd and the master node direction interconnect
The interconnect itself is just a UART with a custom protocol on top of it, but it requires 2 UARTs per node.

As for the LCD, it's right here: http://www.newhavendisplay.com/nhdc12832a1zfsrgbfbw3v-p-5958.html
128x32 - 4k pixels! 

I'm working on the LCD support right now. The backlighting is working fine, still tweaking the SPI interface though. Should have enough code for a basic display in the next few days.

[pushcx]

Thanks for breaking down the USB connections.

That display looks really nice. My hardware knowledge is  limited and rusty, but I took a look at the data sheets.

If I correctly read the chart on page 5 of the spec, it looks like typical refresh is typically 150ms (though sometimes up to 250ms). I can imagine some fun things to do with a 6.6hz monochrome display, especially if it's easy to get to from userspace code.

Looks like the pixels are binary, there are no tints? And only one of the RGB LEDs are binary and exclusive?

[HaaTa]

If you didn't see it, here's the lcd controller chip datasheet as well http://www.newhavendisplay.com/app_notes/ST7565R.pdf

Yeah, the pixels are binary. The only adjustment is the overall electric volume of the display. The RGB backlight will be controlled by 3 different PWMs on the Freescale mk20dx256vlh7

[pushcx]

I did see it, but my understanding was limited.

What I was trying to confirm with that last question: the backlight has a red, green, and blue LED. Can more than one of them be lit at a time, and are the binary on/off or can they vary in intensity? I'm wondering whether this screen has 3 possible background colors or many.

[HaaTa]

So, I'll provide PWM control of each of the 3 channels, meaning that you can combine the 3 different channels simultaneously.

With the backlighting (switches, not LCD) there is 256 different levels. With the ARM chip however, I believe I can provide 16 bit channels per color. So this is technically 196608 different possible colour combinations (48 bit colour). So yep, you can get interesting

Worst case, you'll only get 24 bit color (8 bits per channel).