Author Topic: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)  (Read 10890 times)

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Offline rethus

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NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« on: Sun, 02 March 2014, 06:38:50 »
Neo2 is a Layer based, for german language and programming optimized Keyboardlayout.

Cause only german people are intrested in this Layout, I'll choose the german language for this Thread.
If you need additional Informations to NEO2, have a look at: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(Tastaturbelegung)


Ich freue mich darauf gemeinsam mit Euch eine Tastenanordnung zu erarbeiten, die perfekt auf ErgoDox in Verbindung mit NEO2 optimiert ist
Um es ggf. von anderen Varianten unterscheiden zu können, nenne ich es SaSu-Ergo

Hier nun mein initialer Vorschlag:

ErogDox-Ebene 1 (L1)

 ┌─────┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┐ ┌───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬─────┐
 │ esc │ 1 │ 2 │ 3 │ 4 │ 5 │t1^│ │t2`│ 6 │ 7 │ 8 │ 9 │ 0 │ t3´ │
 ├─────┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤ ├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼─────┤
 │ Men │ x │ v │ l │ c │ w │tab│ │pos│ k │ h │ g │ f │ q │  ß  │
 ├─────┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤   │ │ 1 ├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼─────┤
 │     │ u │ i │ a │ e │ o ├───┤ ├───┤ s │ n │ r │ t │ d │enter│
 ├─────┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤del│ │bsp├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼─────┤
 │super│ ü │ ö │ ä │ p │ z │   │ │   │ b │ m │ , │ . │ j │ y   │
 └─┬───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┴───┘ └───┴───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┬─┘
   │+x │+c │+v │+f │m4 │                 │ m4│   │+w │pu │pd │
   └───┴───┴───┴───┴───┘                 └───┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
                       ┌───┬───┐ ┌───┬───┐
                       │~L2│fn │ │ins│   │
                   ┌───┼───┼───┤ ├───┼───┼───┐
                   │   │   │ctl│ │ctl│   │   │
                   │shi│alt├───┤ ├───┤spa│shi│
                   │   │   │m3 │ │m3 │   │   │
                   └───┴───┴───┘ └───┴───┴───┘


*Super ist die so genannte Windows-Taste
*AltGr ist die Compose-Taste in NEO auf mod3
*Men   ist die Menütaste (Shift+F10)
*drk   Drucken/Print
*pu/pd Page Up, Page Down
*FN    wird eigentlich nur auf Laptops zum schalten von Hardware-Eigenschaften gebraucht, wenn nicht notwendig kann die Taste auch ersetzt werden


Bei der Belegung der Tasten habe ich mir folgendes gedacht:
(R-S1/R2 bedeutet, Rechte Hand-Spalte5/Reihe2, gem. obigen Layout also: f)

Mod3 - Sonderzeichen
Beim Programmieren und in diversen anderen Programmen nutzt der Profi meist ShortCuts, wie z.B. STRG+/, STRG+ * usw. Unter NEO2 muss man dazu die mod3 einbesziehen:

Beispiel:
Tastenkombination:            STRG+/
Zu drückende Tasten:    STRG + Mod3 + i

Mod3 lege ich daher auf die unterste kleine Taste in den Daumenblöcken, darüber direkt STRG. So kann man einfach den Daumen über beide legen und hat die jeweils andere Hand frei, um das benötigte Zeichen zu drücken.
Mod3 hab ich bewusst auf die unterste der beiden Tasten gelegt, weil man dies viel öfter braucht als STRG, und so die mod3 Taste einfacher erreichbar ist.

Mod4 - Richtungstasten
Richtungstasten (Cursor-Tasten) gibt es auf der ersten Ebene keine, da mit Umschaltung auf mod4 alle Richtungstasten, Home, End usw. bequem erreichbar sind Zudem bleibt die rechte Hand frei für die Maus.
L-S5/R5 und R-S5/R5 sind mit dem Daumen noch sehr gut erreichbar. Daher habe ich mod4 dorthin gelegt.

Enter Taste (Return)
Da die Enter-Taste oft gebraucht wird, und mit dem kleinen Finger bequem erreichbar ist, schiebe ich y eins nach unten auf R-S7/R4 und lege Enter auf R-S7/R3. So ist auch (sollte man nochmal an einer konventionellen Tastatur tippen) die Position von Enter nahezu identisch.

Auf weiteren ErgoDox (nicht NEO) Unterebenen sehe ich gute Möglichkeiten, um die F1-F12 Tasten, sowie diverse oft gebrauchte Shortcuts auf die Linke Hand zu legen (damit auch hier wieder die Maushand frei bleibt).
Eine Übelegung wäre auch auf einer solchen Ebene (der rechten Hand) einen Ten-Block zu legen.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 02 March 2014, 07:04:03 »
You’ll probably get more useful suggestions from the rest of the crowd here if you stick to English. :-)

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 02 March 2014, 09:50:49 »
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A//geekhack.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D55407.0

If the google translate page is anything near correct, I agree, you might get more help from English speakers since you're not asking specific questions on the letter layout (which is German specific). Also, try using http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com. It gives you a much better picture of your layout and there is an ErgoDox preset.

Offline rethus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 10 March 2014, 13:52:07 »
Would love to use Keyboard-Layout-editor, but it doesn't support german umlauts üöäß

Offline wasabah

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 11 March 2014, 03:33:27 »
Would love to use Keyboard-Layout-editor, but it doesn't support german umlauts üöäß


Yeah, that's always the problem somehow. :/
Fortunately, it's not so hard changing and compiling the code by oneself.
ErgoDox Classic | Logitech G400 | Logitech Marble | Logitech M570 | Logitech M235 | Logitech M305

Offline Oobly

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 16 March 2014, 04:02:06 »
Have you had a look at AdNW? It's developed from NEO2 with very good modern analysis and optimisation. There is a version specifically for vertially staggered layouts like ErgoDox with a thumb shift button (BU-Teck variant): http://www.adnw.de/index.php?n=Main.OptimierungF%C3%BCrDieGeradeTastaturMitDaumen-Shift

I am using a modified version of it (adjusted more for English) and find it very nice to use. Very efficient and has a nice rhythm.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 16 March 2014, 04:48:02 »
Would love to use Keyboard-Layout-editor, but it doesn't support german umlauts üöäß
Are you sure?
« Last Edit: Sun, 16 March 2014, 05:03:29 by jacobolus »

Offline rethus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 21 March 2014, 16:56:04 »
Ok, if you mean this one, you"re right. But i mean an Layouteditor which can directly output  the needed SourceCode like this one:
https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox

Offline AKmalamute

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 21 March 2014, 17:01:27 »
You’ll probably get more useful suggestions from the rest of the crowd here if you stick to English. :-)
Also, and I'm guessing you'll have thought of this, our *cough*sistersite*cough Deskthority.net has a more European focus, and you would probably get more pageviews by those for whom Deutche is their muettersprache.

Not sure since I don't go there often enough to see if you've posited this there too.
Good luck, regardless.

HHKB-lite2, Dvorak user

Offline jacobolus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 21 March 2014, 18:17:37 »
Ok, if you mean this one, you"re right. But i mean an Layouteditor which can directly output  the needed SourceCode like this one:
https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox
Well, SonOfSonOfSpock suggested using keyboard-layout-editor (and provided a link) as a way of making a diagram that looks prettier / is easier to interpret than just monospaced ASCII text using box drawing characters. Then you said, “Would love to use Keyboard-Layout-editor, but it doesn't support german umlauts üöäß”. I assumed you were referring to the same one he just linked to, since you called it by the same name, and since we were only talking about displaying the layout, not generating firmware code.

Anyway, once again, if you want advice around here, I’d recommend asking in English, and there are probably folks who would be happy to talk your layout over, even if it’s designed for typing in German. Otherwise, your audience is pretty small.

Offline rethus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 22 March 2014, 09:43:25 »
Ok, I switch to English, and I'll use the Keyboard-configurator to got more feedbacks.

Offline rethus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 22 March 2014, 10:53:08 »
K, here my first Alpha Release of Neo-Layout.

Neo themself has more than one Layer by default (there are still other ones, which optimized for german AND English like ADNW ).  The Layers are called Mod3, Mod4 and so on.





There are some Layers more than this, but the first 4 Layers are most needed.

To have this Layers even on PC which has not installed the Neo-Layout, we need to put the Neo Layers to the Ergodox Firmware.

Now here is my first result for Layer 0 ( hope to get some good feedback to optimize it, cause you see, not all Keys are used at the moment.)

ErgoDox SaSu_0.1

58337-0

Here some explanations:
I start with Layer 3 and 4 in my Layout to be simlar to the Mod3 and Mod4 description.
Maybe later L1 could become a Layer for Function Keys (F1 - F12), and Layer 2 for most needed Shortcuts in Programms.
« Last Edit: Sat, 22 March 2014, 11:08:07 by rethus »

Offline rethus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 22 March 2014, 15:15:53 »
Here a little modification.
I've switched Return and Backspace, seems to be much more intuitive to have space and backspace on same side.
And if the Enter-Key is on the left sides, it is also great to use Mouse and press Enter at the same time.

I've also changed tab to the other side… to column 1 on left-hand, cause tab is needed realy often on writing sourcecode. In this way I have it directly on the pinky of the left Hand.
58359-0
Here is the Link to the Layout: Click

Offline jacobolus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 22 March 2014, 15:47:51 »
Looks okay to me.

Personally, I find the number row more of a stretch than would be ideally practical, and on the keyboard(s) I’m building plan to scrap the number row entirely and put the numbers on a shifted layer. I also think several of the other keys on the ergodox are difficult to reach and could probably be safely left unused.

I’d aim for setting up the layers so that every character you commonly need takes as little hand contortion as possible, and try to set things up in a logical scheme that you'll be able to teach yourself / remember.

I take it +x, +z, +v, +f stands for "cut", "undo", "paste", "find"? If so, I’m a bit puzzled by their ordering.

It’s always funny to see layouts generated by an optimization process which assumes that the fingers should be used the way that Neo picture suggests. Here’s approximately how I use my fingers on a standard keyboard:
« Last Edit: Sat, 22 March 2014, 15:51:40 by jacobolus »

Offline rethus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 24 March 2014, 02:01:57 »
Version 0.3
Modified the mod3. Set them to one of the the thumb on each side. and switch it with ctrl and backspace
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 March 2014, 02:03:39 by rethus »

Offline rethus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 26 April 2014, 12:59:31 »
How can I add special Chars to the Firmware like this one, which are not on the normal qwertz keyboard:

like:   62586-0


Offline davkol

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 26 April 2014, 13:39:59 »
You can't. In theory, it might be possible to send Unicode though, or you can use a macro (i.e. shortcut for that character in your OS (and software layout))... neither is portable/platform-independent.

Offline ksweber

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 22:55:47 »
Your layer modifiers L4 are at locations hard to press only because you consumed thumb keys for Enter, Backspace etc.

Why not multiuse the thumb keys as a modifier and sametime as a normal key? Then you can double the use of the thumb keys. Look to my layout proposal for the Neo2 modifiers here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57559.msg1316000#msg1316000

My source code is also linked if you want to change the default Ergodox firmwares behaviour on these thumb keys.

By the way - do you know that there is a Neo2 branch of the ErgoDox firmware?
« Last Edit: Sun, 11 May 2014, 00:48:57 by ksweber »

Offline Dev0

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 31 May 2014, 10:16:03 »
Hi,

I yust ordered a ErgoDox, so i have to wait long until I get my hands on it... but im realy interested in that project to put Neo2 on ErgoDox...

Are there any compiled oder source versions of that firmware downloadable ?

How is your experience with Neo2 on ErgoDox ? Do you also write code with it ?


Offline rethus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 14 December 2014, 11:12:56 »
By the way - do you know that there is a Neo2 branch of the ErgoDox firmware?

It's hard to keep a good overview for the ErgoDox Firmware.
Now I plan to spend some time to got my NEO-Layout finished. Have you some suggestions?
What a good Firmware, for NEO which also have included the MOD3 and MOD4 Layer... is there still one?

(PS: Please also have a look to G+ : https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ploversteno/0snNzQ9jtt0)

Offline rethus

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Re: NEO2 on ErgoDox (SaSu-Ergo)
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 22 December 2014, 10:34:14 »
I have restart now the work on it.
You can find today fresh Release 0.2.0 here: https://github.com/xstable/ergodox-firmware/tree/v.0.2.0