Author Topic: TECK? New layout and keys any good?  (Read 17460 times)

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Offline Haevuus

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TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« on: Mon, 01 December 2014, 02:13:09 »
Any feedback/opinions on the recent changes to keyswitches and layout on the TECK? I write up to 10,000 words a day ( :confused:), and I wanted to get back to the mechanical keys I remember so fondly, and I can't seem to find a good ergo board with them outside of the monster Kinesis Advantage. Of course, I see the advantage of the Ergodox, but the last time I tried to solder, I almost burned down the house! And...I kind of need to put something to work right now, as my most recent Goldtouch squish-board is failing rapidly.

If -- as I begin to suspect -- the TECK is not very well-respected here, please forgive my naivete. If you folks can help me figure out something mechanical and somewhat ergo to go to work with, I promise to drop back into "lurk status" and not weigh in again until I have learned more!  :thumb: Who knows? I might just go for the gusto at some point and
try for an Ergodox!

Offline daerid

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 01 December 2014, 09:08:57 »
I promise to drop back into "lurk status" and not weigh in again until I have learned more!

OMG don't do that! Stay involved, contribute, make noise, ask questions! We love participation here :)

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 01 December 2014, 15:24:15 »
What did they change in the layout?  I didn't notice any differences?
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 01 December 2014, 16:18:59 »
Their website says they are using Kailh switches. Looks like the same price as before when they used Cherry switches. The physical placement of the keys is the same, but it looks like some of the punctuation keys have been moved around. Also, shift and Ctrl have been swapped. Other than proper labeling of keys, this layout could have been created on the old model.

TECK doesn't have a very good reputation. There is evidence that their keyboards can have issues and the company either takes a really long time to respond to customer issues or not at all. If you are absolutely in love with it, by all means go ahead and get one. Just be aware that you might spend a bunch of money and get a lemon.

I'd recommend taking a look at the Matias Ergo Pro. It is coming out this month (December 2014). I don't know how long you can wait, but that is at least more reliable than ordering an ErgoDox and then needing to solder it. You might be able to find more detailed information on availability if you contacted Matias directly. http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/

Also, as daerid said, it is great to have new people join in.

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 02 December 2014, 11:16:17 »
Their website says they are using Kailh switches. Looks like the same price as before when they used Cherry switches. The physical placement of the keys is the same, but it looks like some of the punctuation keys have been moved around. Also, shift and Ctrl have been swapped. Other than proper labeling of keys, this layout could have been created on the old model.

TECK doesn't have a very good reputation. There is evidence that their keyboards can have issues and the company either takes a really long time to respond to customer issues or not at all. If you are absolutely in love with it, by all means go ahead and get one. Just be aware that you might spend a bunch of money and get a lemon.

I'd recommend taking a look at the Matias Ergo Pro. It is coming out this month (December 2014). I don't know how long you can wait, but that is at least more reliable than ordering an ErgoDox and then needing to solder it. You might be able to find more detailed information on availability if you contacted Matias directly. http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/

Also, as daerid said, it is great to have new people join in.

It seems the cost savings from Kailh switches is translated to their bottom line and not in the price.

Oh, I noticed that they changed the location of Tab, -, added another backspace in the upper right, did a couple other things.  Um, guys, what the hell?  The ship looks like it's sinking.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 02 December 2014, 18:37:35 »
The cost savings seems to be what a lot of other board makers have been doing. I can see since the ergonomic keyboard market is smaller they wouldn't feel pressure to lower their prices.

For the most part, the new layout makes sense and I can see the logic in the changes. Except hypen. I would have kept it in the upper right instead of adding the extra backspace.

Offline qihqi

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 02 December 2014, 20:33:34 »
I own two (older cherry version of) TECK boards and I love it. I don't think I will like its new layout because I am used to the old one.

You can have several layouts that all respect to the same ergonomic principle (less movement for frequent keys). And which one to prefer is usually an acquired taste.

Businesswise, TECK company is either not understanding its target audience or it is targeting a different group than people of this forum. The keycaps is cheap ABS and is impossible to find replacement caps for.

As for Ergodox, if you wait long enough you will find people sell preassembled. Or if you want to spend money there is soldering services as well.

This website: http://uniquekeyboard.com/index.php has a cheaper alternative to ergodox and offers assembling service. 

Offline berserkfan

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 02 December 2014, 22:16:47 »
Any feedback/opinions on the recent changes to keyswitches and layout on the TECK? I write up to 10,000 words a day ( :confused:), and I wanted to get back to the mechanical keys I remember so fondly, and I can't seem to find a good ergo board with them outside of the monster Kinesis Advantage. Of course, I see the advantage of the Ergodox, but the last time I tried to solder, I almost burned down the house! And...I kind of need to put something to work right now, as my most recent Goldtouch squish-board is failing rapidly.

If -- as I begin to suspect -- the TECK is not very well-respected here, please forgive my naivete. If you folks can help me figure out something mechanical and somewhat ergo to go to work with, I promise to drop back into "lurk status" and not weigh in again until I have learned more!  :thumb: Who knows? I might just go for the gusto at some point and
try for an Ergodox!

Teck is (literally) an ass of a keyboard. But you can peruse my link and decide for yourself if you want to buy. Price seems good at current bid. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66258.0
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline tufty

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 03 December 2014, 02:17:34 »
I own two (older cherry version of) TECK boards and I love it. I don't think I will like its new layout because I am used to the old one.
Readjusting to a particular variation on a theme is no big deal, although if you found yourself with 2 different layouts on otherwise more or less identical boards that might be annoying.

The TECK layout is certainly better than good 'ol bad 'ol staggered qwerty; if you "get a good one" I can see why you would love it compared to a stock staggered board.  That said, it loads the pinkies heavily, and there's no adjustment to split or tenting (although the latter goes for most non-2-part boards).  If I was buying a new board, and, specifically like the OP moving from an adjustable split (still staggered) board, I'd go for something different.

Probably the easiest suggestion is Matias' ergo pro.  It's more expensive than doing a "like-for-like" swap with the goldtouch, but Matias' stuff is solid as a rock.  On top of that, qualitatively, the matias switches piss all over cherry anyway; most who've tried them will agree, if only for the quietness - comparison with the goldtouch rubber domes is laughable.  The layout is close to the goldtouch, adjustment time should be minimal.

Then comes TECK, but it seems to be a 50/50 chance of getting one that actually works.  As the OP writes a lot, (s)he isn't likely to be happy to find dropped, repeated and transposed characters.  The chance of having that happen and then almost certainly finding TECK don't want to talk to me would be enough to put me off, and it would require learning a new layout to boot.

Ergodox & co are too young, it's a big investment of time in learning & customising layouts and layers (although if you get one prebuilt it should at least work).  The DIY approach, if you will.  And the non-DIY ergoclones don't even have that benefit.

After that, you start getting into kinesis / maltron territory (but they have rubber domes) and the OP is already doing well enough with a split staggered; worth the money - perhaps if you have  real physiological need but I doubt it in this case.

Businesswise, TECK company is either not understanding its target audience or it is targeting a different group than people of this forum. The keycaps is cheap ABS and is impossible to find replacement caps for.
I think you're conflating the people who want to stick un-ergonomic crap like this on their keyboards with people who care about usability.  There's 2 communities here, and not a great deal of crossover between the two.

As for TECK using cheap clone cherry keyswitches and pocketing the difference, I wouldn't expect any different from any company.  You're not going to notice the difference anyway except perhaps in the very long term.
« Last Edit: Wed, 03 December 2014, 02:19:57 by tufty »

Offline Gerk

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 05 December 2014, 09:57:37 »
I have the original Teck (which I waited forrrrrrever for, having pre-ordered pretty might right after their announcement).  We were lied to and led along by the nose for the entire pre-production time with outright misinformation on when they would be available, etc.  Definitely not a company that I would personally deal with again due to this.  dd in all the reports of problematic hardware these days and it sounds like a bad combination to me.

I pretty much never use the board these days -- just couldn't get comfortable with the layout no matter how I remapped it.  The layout limitations (i.e. not enough keys to the right of the standard alpha-numeric) is a deal breaker for me and in my daily usage (programming) it actually required much more hand movement for me to use the center key rows, etc.  As others have pointed out the change to different mechanical keys is not going to make any kind of a difference.  It's a love/hate thing and I most definitely fall into the hate category.  The mechanical switches didn't trump the poor layout choices.

I use two Goldtouch V2's and am still mostly happy with them, although they are showing signs of age.  I have a Matias Ergo Pro on pre-order and if you like the goldtouch V2 style layout I would suggest you wait and see how these work out once they are in the hands of some of us here if you don't want to pre-order, but they sound like the ideal combination for me (once I make a few tweaks that allow me to dynamically adjust the sply/tilt angles -- that's a big thing for me with the goldtouch boards I have that I can't walk away from).
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline SilverRubicon

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 06 December 2014, 10:42:29 »
I like my TECK.  It's made well but takes some time getting used to the arrangement.  I do switch back and forth between keyboards, Apple aluminum, RealMatrix, and the TECK as I get bored or sore from sticking with one for too long. 

The one time I tried a two-piece, split board, I absolutely hated it.  My hands always felt lost and with the ability to so easily move it around during the course of the day, I never felt comfortable.  I am interested in the Matias as I have used their products in the past, but I wouldn't use a GoldTouch.  Not a chance. 

Regardless of all the complaints about the TECK, I would recommend it.  Not sure about the new layout but it looks like it may be an improvement.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 08 December 2014, 15:51:09 »
I was wondering the same thing.

I bought one TECK to see if it could replace my Kinesis Freestyle keyboards and I'm really loving it. Apart from the occasional double/not registering key...
Now I want to buy a second one but now that the switches changed I'm not sure what to do. I'm just passed the 2 month period to return my current 209 and buy a 229.
I would prefer to have to keyboards with the same feel.
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 11 December 2014, 07:57:40 »
I'm ordering the new 229 model this week and once it arrives I'll send this 209 back and it will be replaced by another 229 (double letter/not registering issues).
So I'll briefly have them both and I can do a comparison then :)
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron

Offline berserkfan

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 11 December 2014, 08:13:58 »
Apart from the occasional double/not registering key...


I don't know what makes Teck so lousy, but I assure you that the vast majority of cheap and 'inferior' keyboards, including Razer and various cheapo Chinese brands, do not have this problem. I consider their failure to solve such a basic problem as a big red flag. I respectfully recommend that you try Kinesis or some other brand without such a reliability problem.

I have used Razer and know many people who use Razer, and on maybe 9, 10 keyboards not even one instance of repeating key has ever been reported.

On a small number of Chinese brands that I have heard of, not one repeating key either.

It is almost certainly not Cherry Corp at fault, but crap Teck controller or firmware. These things could have been solved a long time ago, but apparently they don't care. Their ass-shaped keyboard is a real pain in the butt.
« Last Edit: Thu, 11 December 2014, 08:16:55 by berserkfan »
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 11 December 2014, 09:09:48 »
Take a look at my Signature ;) I have two Freestyle's
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron

Offline Haevuus

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 13 December 2014, 01:03:20 »
Thanks to all of you for the info here. My take-away is that no matter how intriguing the TECK layout seems, as an electronic device, it's still a little too hinky to lay out that kind of money for. So... what's the fallback for a hard-working typing keyboard?

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 13 December 2014, 02:03:33 »
There aren't many options for ergo keyboards with mechanical switches. Outside of the options mentioned so far, there are a few in development. I think the Matias Ergo Pro is the closest to being released.

Offline tufty

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 13 December 2014, 02:07:38 »
If you're not fixed on the ergo aspect, and can live with a row-staggered (i.e. "conventional") layout, my money goes on Matias' Quiet Pro every time.

http://www.matias.ca/quietpro/

Offline Gerk

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 15 December 2014, 10:44:08 »
If you're not fixed on the ergo aspect, and can live with a row-staggered (i.e. "conventional") layout, my money goes on Matias' Quiet Pro every time.

http://www.matias.ca/quietpro/

Or if you're willing to wait a little longer the Matia Ergo:

http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline tufty

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 15 December 2014, 14:59:14 »
the Matias Ergo:
I don't buy the split-staggered layout as being enormously better than a non-split "stock" qwerty board.  It still has the horrible stagger, still has the ergonomically vile QWERTY layout.  The only good points that I can see (and they are good points) are that it requires you to type more or less properly, and allows you to tune the angles of your forearms. 

That said, I'm not sure about the TECK non-split vertically staggered layout either.  Now, something like Ooobly's board, but with matias quiet keyswitches?  That would make me drool.

Offline Gerk

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 15 December 2014, 15:09:28 »
the Matias Ergo:
I don't buy the split-staggered layout as being enormously better than a non-split "stock" qwerty board.  It still has the horrible stagger, still has the ergonomically vile QWERTY layout.  The only good points that I can see (and they are good points) are that it requires you to type more or less properly, and allows you to tune the angles of your forearms. 

That said, I'm not sure about the TECK non-split vertically staggered layout either.  Now, something like Ooobly's board, but with matias quiet keyswitches?  That would make me drool.

As an RSI and arthritis sufferer I can testify first hand that a split keyboard (tented) like the matias ergo pro does wonders for the ergonomic end of things... "better" is a very subjective term so one person's "better" can be the next person's "horrible"

I personally don't understand all the huge interest in the matrix layout.  I've tried them off and on for many years and they made my hands hurt (more than normal) and it forced me to try and unlearn all the muscle memory I've built up touch typing for almost 4 decades.  That means it's "horrible" to me personally.  As for stagger I personally don't have any issues with it.  I have more problems with a matrix layout personally as my hands just don't want to work in that way.  I can touch type just fine on the good old staggered layout that I've been using all my life :)  And when I do it on a nice split and tented keyboard layout it makes all the aches and pains go away.

Personally I think that the whole point of ergo is that it makes you do things in the best possible way for your physical needs, and tenting and typing properly are probably first and foremost there (after having a proper workstation setup).
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Gerk

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 15 December 2014, 15:16:32 »
I also think that we are using the term ergonomic differently, I am referring to something that is physically a more apt setup for the way we're physically built, but I think you might be using ergonomic more like "efficient".  Querty is not un-ergonomic (it's not the most efficient but it has nothing to do with ergonomics).  Flat keyboards, regardless of whether they are staggered or matrix, qwerty or dvorak (or whatever), most certainly are un-ergonomic in several ways.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 15 December 2014, 15:17:47 »
I don't buy the split-staggered layout [on the Matias ErgoPro] as being enormously better than a non-split "stock" qwerty board.  It still has the horrible stagger, still has the ergonomically vile QWERTY layout.
Have you ever tried a split standard row-staggered keyboard? Personally I think it’s a huge improvement, especially with one of the spacebars as a delete key.

You can independently adjust the hand separation and all three axes of rotation for each half, which means you can place the keyboard in exactly the position and orientation such that the muscles in your arms, wrists, and hands are in as neutral a position as possible, which means you can reduce tension in all your muscles to just the minimum amount necessary. Straightening your wrist gives your fingers a much wider safe range of motion, so they become more agile and it’s easier to type with proper springy technique, and you can avoid putting strain on your carpal tunnel. (Try watching professional musicians who need finger agility, like guitarists, pianists, or clarinetists; or puppeteers, fencers, graphic artists, knitters, jewelers, surgeons, etc.: they generally keep their wrists as straight as they can when doing fine work.)

It’s maybe not quite as good as you’d get by taking a Maltron and chopping it in half, or by building (or contracting someone to build) a bespoke keyboard precisely matching your own preferences and hand shape, but it’s far and away better than a standard keyboard.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 December 2014, 15:36:15 by jacobolus »

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 15 December 2014, 15:30:11 »
I used (and still have) two Kinesis Freestyles. They're split keyboards.

One of the things I never enjoyed is the placement of QWERTY's Y on them, this very far away.
Also the location of CTRL is same as on normal boards, very non-ergonomic and my pinkies didn't like that.

It took some getting used to but I prefer matrix layout now to staggered. Yes it takes a while to change the muscle memory (sometimes i still cant find the C for example) but moving the fingers up and down is a lot more relaxing now.
I try to use my middle finger for the keys in the middle row as much as I can seeing both index fingers get enough work.

Finding the right position with split keyboards was also somewhat difficult, I could never find the right one. I moved them apart, moved them next to each other, different angles but never just right.

The only problem I really have with my TECK is that there are no physical Cut/Copy/Paste keys that I have been using for ages. Sadly AC Copy in the remapper doesn't work very well. I hope they will fix that in a later version.

Also I still need to get used to those MX Browns, I bottom out way to often. Probably from years of dome-typing. When my 229 arrives I'll fit it with the o-rings I ordered. I placed them on a few keys on my 209 and the bang hitting the bottom is a lot softer, just don't want to change all the keys on a board that I'm gonna return soon...
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron

Offline jacobolus

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 15 December 2014, 15:43:00 »
I used (and still have) two Kinesis Freestyles. They're split keyboards. One of the things I never enjoyed is the placement of QWERTY's Y on them, this very far away. Also the location of CTRL is same as on normal boards, very non-ergonomic and my pinkies didn't like that.
There are definitely many problems with a standard keyboard. T, Y, B, all the keys at the top right, `, 1, 5, 6, 7, -, =, esc, the whole F row, ctrl, right shift, return, arrow keys, etc. require more reaching than they should. (Also, I’m really not a fan of the Freestyle’s switches.)

That doesn’t mean there isn’t an advantage in splitting the keyboard though.

Quote
Finding the right position with split keyboards was also somewhat difficult, I could never find the right one. I moved them apart, moved them next to each other, different angles but never just right.
I think the biggest difficulty is that there aren’t great sturdy supports that make it fast and easy to tweak the position and orientation. One of the things that’s most interesting about the new Matias keyboard is the tripod mounts on the bottom. I think some types of mini tripods should actually be pretty reasonable as keyboard supports. Later, once the right position/orientation is found it should also be pretty easy to build a solid wood (or whatever) support with a tripod mount on it that the keyboard can screw down onto.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 December 2014, 15:45:55 by jacobolus »

Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 15 December 2014, 15:51:55 »
Yeah, I use Colemak though so some keys are moved around for me obviously.

I must say I was sceptical about the splitting in the TECK, I didn't think it was going to be enough but for me its just right :)
The pads could have been a bit wider though, but I try to type with my hands floating as much as possible seeing its better ergonomically. I've been thinking about removing the pads.

The support on the Kinesis is fine, never had any problems with it. I don't miss the tenting on my TECK though. I thought I would.
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron

Offline jacobolus

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 15 December 2014, 16:13:19 »
The support on the Kinesis is fine, never had any problems with it.
What I mean is, if you want to tent the Freestyle at 40°, tilt it 5° downward at the far side, rotate the halves inward by maybe 10°, and then separate the two halves by just the right amount, it’s non-trivial with the existing supports. With a tripod mount and some mini-tripods, though, that should be pretty easy.

Offline oneproduct

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 19:15:00 »
I hated the TECK before we could reprogram it and had almost abandoned it. But now I'd say I like it more than the Ergodox (thumb keys more comfortable to reach) and the Kinesis (as Sordna mentioned once, the well is a bit too deep/curved, and I have particularly small hands).

I don't use the two "arrow clusters" along the bottom for their original purpose. Instead in each cluster I have the buttons closest to the thumb buttons as function keys to access different layers, that way I can just keep my hands on the homerow and use ESDF (or WASD if you prefer) as arrow keys for example.

It's also significantly smaller and built from a single piece which can have its advantages sometimes.

The faults that I have against it though are that sometimes I do get the double key press problem, though much more rarely now that you can adjust the debouncing rate (?) in their web configurator. I also kind of wish I could turn the arrow clusters into true additional thumb buttons rather than curling my thumb inwards a bit to use them.
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 December 2014, 19:24:25 by oneproduct »
Layout: Colemak
Fastest typing speed: 131 WPM on typeracer, 136 WPM on 10fastfingers.
Daily driver: Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown with ergonomically weighted, lubed springs.
Ergo keyboards: Truly Ergonomic, Kinesis Advantage, Ergodox

Offline berserkfan

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 19:53:17 »
I hated the TECK before we could reprogram it and had almost abandoned it. But now I'd say I like it more than the Ergodox (thumb keys more comfortable to reach) and the Kinesis (as Sordna mentioned once, the well is a bit too deep/curved, and I have particularly small hands).

I don't use the two "arrow clusters" along the bottom for their original purpose. Instead in each cluster I have the buttons closest to the thumb buttons as function keys to access different layers, that way I can just keep my hands on the homerow and use ESDF (or WASD if you prefer) as arrow keys for example.

It's also significantly smaller and built from a single piece which can have its advantages sometimes.



Shameless plug on a layout that I do like, but GH36 is very promising and will be finished soon. As a matrix user I find that having the thumb keys within 1u distance is much better for people  with small hands.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline Sc0tTy

  • Posts: 167
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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 08 January 2015, 13:43:34 »
Does anybody know if TE will come with a version of Red switches? Or why they stopped with them?
As usual, no response from them...

I'm still not sure if I like brown switches that much.
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron

Offline possumgumbo

  • Posts: 30
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 15 January 2015, 13:06:08 »
I should be receiving my new TECK 229 in the mail by the end of the month. I had an unbelievably defective TEK 209, on which the T, J, Up Arrow, and Left Arrow keys stopped working reliably. Each key would have its moments of functionality, but missed over 20% of keystrokes. My office purchased the 209 for me, and was none too happy with the defective unit. The J key went bad in the first three months, so I went through their support ticket submission in late August.They did not return my email until a week ago, stating that there had been a mistake that said my ticket was resolved. The office receptionist went after them, and we should be getting a replacement soon. It is likely that they will replace it with the 229, as the 209 is discontinued.

TLDR: My office bought me a defective 209, and TECK is sending a replacement, which will likely be a 229. I will report on my findings.



Offline possumgumbo

  • Posts: 30
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 13 February 2015, 15:39:20 »
I received my new board in the mail today, and it seems to work extremely well.

I had the 209, and the model that was sent back to me is a variation on it with the following changes:

-The CTRL key is above the shift key.

The switches are still Cherry MX browns.

What is this I don't even.

Anyway, all is well, and my keys work fine now. I would advise people to purchase through a front, rather than the actual company, so you can deal with better support than the TECK company offers.



Offline Sc0tTy

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 15 February 2015, 07:43:42 »
Yeah thats my advice too, just use a reseller and the support is good :)

Hmm I see I didn't post a link to my review here :

209 and 229 Truly Ergonomic Keyboard Comparison - (Cherry vs Kailh) MX Brown
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron

Offline possumgumbo

  • Posts: 30
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 16 February 2015, 09:53:19 »
Is there a reseller that is US based? I saw that both of your suggested sellers are EU based.
Some people from the Reddit meetup are interested in buying one, and I wanted to be sure that they didn't have to suffer the same fate that I did.



Offline psm

  • Posts: 2
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 01 June 2015, 11:05:00 »
I should be receiving my new TECK 229 in the mail by the end of the month. I had an unbelievably defective TEK 209, on which the T, J, Up Arrow, and Left Arrow keys stopped working reliably. Each key would have its moments of functionality, but missed over 20% of keystrokes. My office purchased the 209 for me, and was none too happy with the defective unit. The J key went bad in the first three months, so I went through their support ticket submission in late August.They did not return my email until a week ago, stating that there had been a mistake that said my ticket was resolved. The office receptionist went after them, and we should be getting a replacement soon. It is likely that they will replace it with the 229, as the 209 is discontinued.

TLDR: My office bought me a defective 209, and TECK is sending a replacement, which will likely be a 229. I will report on my findings.

HA!  I asked them for an RMA number after 30 days.  For my particular RSI I need a tented setup (did not realize this when I ordered the TEK).  After 3 weeks of being ignored, I called VISA, who said they would charge back TEK, and that I should just send the unit back w/o an RMA.  I then sent an email to TEK letting them know what was going on.  Then, I *immediately* got a return email stating exactly what they said above: "there had been a mistake that said my ticket was resolved", and here was an RMA.  What a bunch of BS.  Its a nice keyboard, well built and everything, but I would not do business with these people if you payed me...

Offline possumgumbo

  • Posts: 30
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 01 June 2015, 12:08:03 »
Text has not been edited to emphasize my point.

Imay have to return this one as well,sadly.Notice how my spacebar keeps missing strokes? I aman engineer,and a misplacedkeystroe can cost thousands in power outages, orredesign efforts. This keyboard has an excellent layout, but it is the  biggest piece of trash I have everused. Also, the K key seems to miss (See above in"keystroke"), and that ey is linked to the 5 of  thenumpad that I use, as well. Numbersare even  more critical to mywork.

TLDR: DONOTBUY THIS BOARD. THIS IS MYSECONDONE, AND IT ISEVENWORSE THAN THE FIRST. KEYSTROESONLY REGISTER IFYOU BOTOM OUT, AND THEY STILL AREUNRELIABLE. KEYSUS CHRIST IT GOT WORSE TODAY.




Offline jacobolus

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #36 on: Sat, 08 August 2015, 14:48:18 »
possumgumbo, have a look at this thread for the main discussion of your issue: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=25055

There are also various other threads covering the topic, if you search around, but that’s the main one. It’s a problem with the TECK firmware’s debounce routine (essentially, their debounce algorithm is idiotic). The hardware is fine, and fixing the firmware should be relatively trivial so it’s pretty unclear why they haven’t bothered after several years.

At some point TECK claimed they had gotten a dodgy batch of MX switches to build their keyboards, trying to pass the buck, but tufty took a look at what their debounce routine actually does, and it’s clear that the way they handle things will cause serious issues even for switches that are well within spec:

The original code appears to be "debouncing" by reading a column, waiting for 75 µsecs, and then reading it again, ad infinitum, until they get two identical results.  Considering Cherry reckon 5ms debounce time*, it's almost guaranteed to fail horribly at some point.  Changing the wait period isn't going to help when your algorithm is fundamentally broken.

Yuri's code is much, much nicer, and far more likely to get a good result.  However, I'm led to believe that yuri's code is failing as well; I don't know the µC TE are using (or, indeed, the 80x1 architecture) very well, but my next guess would be an interrupt race condition or a need for more and better debouncing code.

tufty also put up a nice explanation of signal debouncing here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=25055.msg1535522#msg1535522

* * *

If you like the hardware layout and you’re handy with a soldering iron, you could try to replace the TECK’s controller for something like a Teensy 2.0, and install an open source keyboard firmware on it such as hasu’s tmk_keyboard.
« Last Edit: Sat, 08 August 2015, 14:59:49 by jacobolus »

Offline Architect

  • Posts: 254
  • TECK Lover
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 23 August 2015, 08:47:01 »
TEK are fine long term, ignore the FUD people spread about them. Their customer service isn't great which is the root of the marketing problems. Anyhow I've used nothing but these at work and home for years (since they first released) with zero issue*, this is with having 10+ boards (Red, Blue, Brown and Clear). There was a debounce issue with the firmware briefly, long since fixed.

Because I've been along standing supportive customer they sent me a new one with the Kaliph switches for evaluation (no affiliation otherwise). Pretty much the same, a bit smoother from the beginning, where Cherry always start rough and work in after about 4 years of constant use (I've been using Cherry boards for 20 years now). I haven't had it long enough (years) to see how they break in long term. They went to the Kaliph not just for pricing but also availability.

The new standard layout is better I think, even though I don't use it. More like a regular keyboard. One thing they shouldn't have done is the continual tweaking of layout. They should have picked something as close to standard as they could at the beginning and stick to it. Anyhow I program custom layout so it doesn't matter to me. The other thing I've been harping on them for years is to get better keycaps.

* except they got a bad batch of Cherry blues once, which they offered to replace/refund or give a discount. I took the discount and the keys ended up straightening themselves out over time.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline davkol

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 23 August 2015, 09:34:03 »
Ah, Architect, who astroturfed for Truly Ergonomic long before the keyboard was actually released, complains about "FUD". LMAO

Offline Architect

  • Posts: 254
  • TECK Lover
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 23 August 2015, 10:34:39 »
That's me - the guy who actually likes the keyboard, and yes liked the design enough to sign up for it before release with others. Who else does that, oh everybody who signed up for the original DOX group buy too if I recall.

FUD - pro-tip, that means "fear, uncertainty and doubt", none of which I spread bub.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline spectre

  • Posts: 29
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 23 August 2015, 19:00:04 »
TLDR: DONOTBUY THIS BOARD. THIS IS MYSECONDONE, AND IT ISEVENWORSE THAN THE FIRST. KEYSTROESONLY REGISTER IFYOU BOTOM OUT, AND THEY STILL AREUNRELIABLE. KEYSUS CHRIST IT GOT WORSE TODAY.

I have reisered in tihs forum just to repeat tis. DO NOT BU TIS KEYBOARD. DO NOT THRUST ARHITET.
*UY *UY *BUY
 
Yes, I didn't correct the text above intentionally. That is the actual output of my TECK keyboard, at a medium/low typing speed.
Its all lies; the various firmware upgrades will not fix it. Changing the debouncing speed will not help. There is no key "breaking in", it will only get worse, much worse.
They are all lies to keep you hoping for a fix, so when you realize it, your warranty period is over.
At first, its only two, three keys... them a fourth becomes problematic, then another... and so on. The same key can get both double presses and no registering problem. Keys register out of order even when you are sure you typed correctly. Typing passwords is a nightmare; you have to try 3, 4 times, veeeery slowly to get them correctly.

I really love the design, the layout. Its an excellent compromise between portability and ergonomy. But it just became unusable. I wish I had the skills to make a new PCB and firmware for it. But in the end, it was just an very expensive mistake.

MMyy irst lemon.

Offline chuisfree

  • Posts: 13
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 25 August 2015, 03:36:51 »
TEK are fine long term, ignore the FUD people spread about them. Their customer service isn't great which is the root of the marketing problems. Anyhow I've used nothing but these at work and home for years (since they first released) with zero issue*, this is with having 10+ boards (Red, Blue, Brown and Clear). There was a debounce issue with the firmware briefly, long since fixed.


I love the TEK and I am hearbroken over the quality issues I've experienced (the same as everyone else -- keys alternating between double registering and/or not registering at all; randomly changing which keys don't work -- today being the 'y' key).
I wish I could order a new one and just have it work properly.  The layout is the most comfortable I've ever typed on and I truly believe it's eased my arm pain.  It's so much more practical doing the heavy lifting with my thumbs. 
However, it becomes a lot less practical when I have to constantly backspace edit what I've typed. 
I am not tech savvy and have no way of soldering anything together myself. 
At this point, I would say don't buy the keyboard. I am not a "FUD" person -- I am just a very sad customer.

Offline possumgumbo

  • Posts: 30
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 15:16:53 »
siyp

The above should have read

"Here is me trying to type a thing"

My company is never getting their money back. We contacted them half a dozen times, and have never heard a response.



Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 17:15:36 »
Quote
siyp
The above should have read "Here is me trying to type a thing"
That sounds like something more extreme than a wonky debounce routine. I wonder what’s up with your board.

Offline naz

  • Posts: 54
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 10:54:12 »
I have been using the Teck for about 6 months, it has worked just fine until I went away on vacation for about 3 weeks. Now, after just 3 weeks of no use, there are 4 keys that works on and off...

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 20:54:36 »
This keyboard is still available? I'm surprised, considering all the issues people have experienced.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing


Offline Sc0tTy

  • Posts: 167
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  • Ergo enthousiast
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 24 February 2016, 06:58:42 »
So... Just a little update, haven't posted on GH for a while...

The 229 I got little over a year ago has now been replaced with a new 229 because keys where not registering.
And now the second 229 I have is also showing the same symptoms and will probably need replacing as well.

I'm glad that getDigital has a great support policy and exchanged it in no time with a new one (hopefully the same for the second 229).

But the change to Kailh switches didn't fix the original problem and what surprised me even more is that both keyboards started showing symptoms exactly after one year of usage (give or take a few days).
That is a bit concerning and my expectation is that this new one will only last for a year as well.
What worries me the most is that I haven't found a keyboard that has the same options (small but amazing footprint and layout, programmable keys, mech keys) as the TE :(
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron

Offline intelli78

  • Posts: 1503
  • Location: Seattle
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 24 February 2016, 07:36:38 »
It's really sad that they can't/won't fix the controller, and continue to blame these problems on the switches. Neat keyboard, awful company.
Please consider carefully before you decide to comment, for Jesus.

Offline berserkfan

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  • changing diapers is more fun than model f assembly
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 24 February 2016, 08:02:38 »
So... Just a little update, haven't posted on GH for a while...

What worries me the most is that I haven't found a keyboard that has the same options (small but amazing footprint and layout, programmable keys, mech keys) as the TE :(

Customize your own with a Tipro. That's what I do. Can do split layout, all programmable to 4 layers, etc.

I can't sell you a Tipro, but kbdfr on deskauthority has a bunch IIRC. Try asking him. He knows a lot about these models so you might also be able to get split layouts. These are very good quality boards with solid reps unlike the asses that Teck builds.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline Sc0tTy

  • Posts: 167
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Ergo enthousiast
Re: TECK? New layout and keys any good?
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 24 February 2016, 08:27:50 »
So... Just a little update, haven't posted on GH for a while...

What worries me the most is that I haven't found a keyboard that has the same options (small but amazing footprint and layout, programmable keys, mech keys) as the TE :(

Customize your own with a Tipro. That's what I do. Can do split layout, all programmable to 4 layers, etc.

I can't sell you a Tipro, but kbdfr on deskauthority has a bunch IIRC. Try asking him. He knows a lot about these models so you might also be able to get split layouts. These are very good quality boards with solid reps unlike the asses that Teck builds.

Yeah thats no really the same though :(

The Esrille is the keyboard that comes closest, but that key layout doesn't look as good as that of the TECK
« Last Edit: Wed, 24 February 2016, 08:30:45 by Sc0tTy »
1x ErgoDox EZ
2x Truly Ergonomic Keyboard 229
2x Kinesis Freestyle V3-VIP
2x Bamboo Pen & Touch (Mouse replacement)
2x Salli Swing
1x Herman Miller Aeron