I did some measurements using nickels to get actuation force.
Stock was 40-45 grams.
JB's were up around 80 grams(!)
I started cutting the spring and re-measuring:
JB's with 3 flat coils cut off 55-60 (closer to 60)
JB's with 3 flat coils and one normal cut off 50-55 (closer to 50)
JB's with 3 flat coils and two normal cut off 40-45
Note that lube lowers another 5grams and the closer you get to 40grams, if things aren't perfect, they can stick due to the tactile bump being so pronounced. Mine all worked great at 80 (of course) but when I reached 45, my R and M needed a slight touch up to keep from sticking on occasion. I cut mine down to 3 flat coils, plus 1 normal coil, and then lubed them. If you cut them, you want the cut end down in the switch itself as it has a thick post that will keep it aligned better than up top.
Btw, blue and red springs are the same springs based on how length, coils numbers, and tension.Every where I saw spring numbers showed red having a lighter spring, though it may be more due to the stem shape than the spring itself.
1) The tactile bump is right when you start pressing the switch, not halfway down anymore.
2) Right after the tactile bump is where the key will actuate, which effectively makes the key register sooner than any other switch. It registers at roughly 1mm down instead of the standard 2mm down.
3) After the bump, the rest of the switch now feels like linear red or backs. It's also definitely not just a 5cN force increase in the spring. Much higher, almost feels like MX blacks at the linear section.
I never understood why there needed to be 2 pieces, and now, obviously, they can be combined.
One other thing is that you put in the OP I said they're quieter than browns. I didn't directly say this, but I guess you can infer from it. They're quieter than browns just in a sense that it greatly reduces the bottom-out noise. The small tactile bump in browns don't make any noise to begin with. So I guess if you're going to say they're quieter than browns, then they're also quieter than all stock MX switches.
One important thing I need to note is that on yours, there is still a very small space that the white stem piece can still move up and down. When I did the mod, I only had a wire that filled the whole travel gap, so the white stem piece is fully extended. That's why the tactile bump starts right when you press it down, and key actuation is reduced roughly in half. Maybe you can try to use a larger wire size to see if you get the same exact things I'm describing.
Oh, and I think I know how to reduce the spring pressure back to normal
I already tried this. Basically just don't insert the wire into the stem's shaft/hole and it won't prematurely stop the spring from going all the way up the stem.My thought was to cut off 1 or two of the flat coils at the end of each spring. They provide stability, but don't actually provide tension.
I used very fine wire and wrapped it around like 6-8 times instead of one thick wire with 1 wrap around. With thinner wires, you can also "tune" the amount of slack between the white and blue stem parts. Hopefully that's what you were thinking too.
I'll have to try this on my Poker.Thanks, but I'm sure you have done more than you realize. :)
Welcome to Geekhack Leslieann. 6 posts and you've already contributed more than I have in 2400 posts. You'll make for a great addition to the community! ;D
I already tried this. Basically just don't insert the wire into the stem's shaft/hole and it won't prematurely stop the spring from going all the way up the stem.My thought was to cut off 1 or two of the flat coils at the end of each spring. They provide stability, but don't actually provide tension.
I used very fine wire and wrapped it around like 6-8 times instead of one thick wire with 1 wrap around. With thinner wires, you can also "tune" the amount of slack between the white and blue stem parts. Hopefully that's what you were thinking too.
Good idea on the thinner wire.
I thought about that too, but doing this is irreversible. Most keyboard mods are reversible if you don't like it, but cutting coils can't be undone. And second, the two ends of the springs are coiled so that it sits flat with the surface. In spring jargon, these are called "ground" or "closed" ends. if you cut these off, the spring might bend weird when they're compressed. It might even have a semi buckling spring effect.
Have you thought about printing some plastic clips that would fit in as the inserts, something like what SP offers as switch blockers, but much smaller?I already have them designed and printed some, but my machine wasn't accurate and they are too weak.
I mentioned that this operation took longer, than the wire method, but after timing it, I'll have to correct myself on that statement. I made one in about 1m30s, with tools and materials on the table, a time which could be reduced slightly still, whereas I was only able to get just over 2 minutes per switch with the wire method.2minutes each?
2minutes each?
I was doing two per minute.
I think Leslieann cut her springs. I got 45g springs from Originative, and they feel quite good. Individual switches are unremarkable, but when a few are mounted on a plate and placed in normal typing position, I like the end result.
Yea, i wasn't able to get anywhere near that, even though my time included disassembly, and reassembly of the switch. It was probably a combination of material, and method. I used a 18 gauge copper wire, which I inserted into the middle part, and proceeded to bend over the nearest corner, and then cover two full sides. IIRC I had issues bending the wire with my tools, and it's thickness, but I got into a good rhythm quickly. I also did not use a stopwatch to record precise time it took, so I could easily be 30 secs off, I suppose. But I'm sure I was not able to do it quicker than I am O-ringing.That makes more sense.
Excellent guide Leslieann. Am I reading your tutorial correctly that in the end you have ended up using the 20 gauge wire U shaped pieces to "shackle" the switch, modified the original blue switch springs, and utilized an o-ring?Correct.
What do you think about combining this mod with the Trampoline Mod (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50632.30)? Currently the lower bound is ~40g springs before they become sticky. With the trampoline mod in place, the trampoline would store some energy on the way down, and would add to the spring to achieve more return force, possibly decreasing the lowerbound for minimum spring heaviness. Hitting the 30g on some Topre switches would be phenomenal.Excellent guide Leslieann. Am I reading your tutorial correctly that in the end you have ended up using the 20 gauge wire U shaped pieces to "shackle" the switch, modified the original blue switch springs, and utilized an o-ring?Correct.
It's a bit in depth, but you end up with the same spring pressures as blue, with a very short actuation and overall travel.
I'm not using the o-rings at the moment due to my key caps not supporting them, I need to make some parts on my printer to fix that.
Trampoline is more or less the same as o-rings, but work with any key cap. However, I see what you are getting at.Have you had anymore luck with getting a 3D printed accessory for this mod to work?
Hitting 30grams would be very sketchy, simply because of how Cherry switches work. On blues, the actuation bump increases friction and even 40grams can be sketchy until they work in a bit, and even then, things must be perfect. You could probably hit 30-35 with browns, but blues, probably not and nearly impossible on clears.
Using the trampoline mod could allow it to have a better chance of working, but (and this is a VERY big but), jailhouse blues work within such a very small range of motion, that I'm not sure you could make 87 (or however many keys you have) work identical.
If you had a way to make identical mini springs, you could probably make it work, but even then, if you failed to push down enough to build that extra energy, it could still fail to make it over the hump and disengage the switch.
Anyways, this pic will better illustrate what I mentioned about using thinner wires. I wrapped it around a few times so there's no slack left to move. The ends of the wires were not inserted into the blue shaft.Around what size wire is this? I'm not very familiar with wire sizes.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/IMG_1919.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/IMG_1919.jpg)
Around what size wire is this? I'm not very familiar with wire sizes.
Tools needed:
Angle cutters, wire, blue switches, and a small flathead.
The wire is beading wire, you can get it in the craft section of Walmart, 4 of these coils (two silver, two copper) for $5. One coil will do a full keyboard. I believe it was 20 guage wire.Show Image(http://vmroms.com/mypics/keyboard/IMAG0290.jpg)
How can I fasten the white slider in the moved up position (instead of: moved down position)? In an undo-able way, if possible ...Epoxy
They use a similar two part slider so no reason it shouldn't work - give it a try and report your findings :)
They use a similar two part slider so no reason it shouldn't work - give it a try and report your findings :)
Thanks! Will do and post it once I'm successful
It may be possible, but I don't have any or good enough pictures to know for sure. I'm not sure i see the point though, we know it works on Cherry MX Blues and clones out there and those are plentiful and still being made. No reason to go tearing apart vintage stuff that's no longer in production. Heck go buy a 2003 Black Widow off Ebay, you will do the world a favor by ridding it of a terrible keyboard and get some great Cherry Blue switches for cheap in the process.
That said, if Zeal wants to make a short throw Zealio (preferably with a slightly larger bump) I'm in for 200-400 switches.
And if you worry about interest... look at the views on this thread.