Are mechanical keyboards really more reliable?

[1391406]

Now in a rubber dome you have the electrical contact and the rubber cup.  While this is a much simpler and cheaper design it is actually more prone to failure than the MX switch just due to how the rubber cup reacts to being actuated over months of use thousands of time while the entire time being degraded by crap in the air and possibly though to a lesser extent due to UV light.

If that's true, wouldn't that have implications for the longevity of Topre switches? (not to drag Topre into this)

[Thimplum]

Now in a rubber dome you have the electrical contact and the rubber cup.  While this is a much simpler and cheaper design it is actually more prone to failure than the MX switch just due to how the rubber cup reacts to being actuated over months of use thousands of time while the entire time being degraded by crap in the air and possibly though to a lesser extent due to UV light.

If that's true, wouldn't that have implications for the longevity of Topre switches? (not to drag Topre into this)

eeeeeyup!

[Melvang]

due to price it very well could be a much higher quality and longer lasting rubber.

[1391406]

In the MX switch (using this because it is the only one I have actually dissassembled myself so far)  the only wear is between the plastic slider and housing and the electrical contact along with the spring compressing.  Now the plastic that is used is a fairly long wearing plastic (may even have self lubricating properties just not sure exactly which plastic is used here) so the weak point in this equation is actually the electrical contact.  While this metal on metal contact happens with every keystroke the actual pressure on the contacts is kept minimal to help with the longevity of the switch.  The only other failure point here is the spring which yes they do wear out over time and have a chance for breakage it is a very cheap part and I can't see why it would be more than a minimum charge to have any electrical repair shop fix it and the spring itself would be very cheap or free.

Assuming the internals are isolated from wear, how is it that the click leaf gets damaged in some switches? I don't know about anyone else, but I've read reports of some clicky switches losing their click over time. Users log in looking for a solution.

[1391406]

due to price it very well could be a much higher quality and longer lasting rubber.

So, assuming that's the case, if manufacturers used the same high quality rubber in regular rubber dome boards, you could increase the longevity to match that of Topre?

[Melvang]

I believe with whites it is an issue with the switches being lubed from the factory hence the softer click and clicky switches being very sensitive to lube.  With blues and greens losing their click if the switch still operates and registers fine I would venture to guess that most of the issues there is caused by foreign contamination.

due to price it very well could be a much higher quality and longer lasting rubber.

So, assuming that's the case, if manufacturers used the same high quality rubber in regular rubber dome boards, you could increase the longevity to match that of Topre?

I don't see why that wouldn't be possible.

[1391406]

I believe with whites it is an issue with the switches being lubed from the factory hence the softer click and clicky switches being very sensitive to lube.

I don't know. I've got a complicate white Alps board with a couple of switches that have lost some of their click. They're not clickless but they're definitely not as clicky as they once were.

[1391406]

due to price it very well could be a much higher quality and longer lasting rubber.

I get the feeling the cost differential of Topre isn't due to high quality rubber, though. I could be wrong, of course.

[Melvang]

probably not all but could be some.  It could just be that much more expensive to produce the capacitive portions and get the programming right or they just have a higher profit margin per board than cherry mx switched boards.

[Findecanor]

I have used computers for almost twentyfive years now, and I have never spilled liquids on a keyboard, except for the odd drop that could be wiped away with a finger. I don't understand how people do it.

The times I have had a keyboard break on me are:
1. Shorted a membrane by washing the keycaps and not letting them dry properly.
2. Worn out a key in a Thinkpad keyboard at work. I got a replacement keyboard by courier the next day (Support contract!) that I installed within five minutes.
3. The top casing of a Cherry MX switch broke. How that happened, I don't know because it was the number 5 on the keypad (!) and I use the keypad only for cursor keys, occasionally, and it does not have a cursor function. I replaced the top and it worked fine.
I have also had a Cherry MX switch chatter after I had lubed it. I must have bent the leaf spring somehow when it was open.

There are rubber domes, and then there are rubber domes. Many rubber domes are made from both an outer (main) dome and an inner dome. The outer dome provides most of the resistance and the inner dome gives a soft landing. I think that it is the inner dome that gets mushy first, and the membrane contacts that get the most wear.

Key Tronic had its "Lifetime series" that was supposed to last as long as you live. It was rubber dome, and Key Tronic rubber domes have never had a soft mushy landing - it has always been very distinct.

[Thimplum]

due to price it very well could be a much higher quality and longer lasting rubber.

I get the feeling the cost differential of Topre isn't due to high quality rubber, though. I could be wrong, of course.

this

[dorkvader]

Anyone that says they've never had a normal rubber dome keyboard fail hasn't dealt w/ computers nearly enough...

How long is "enough? I've repaired something like 2000-3000 computers, and while I've replaced my share of keyboards, more often than not it's due to damage. Nevertheless, I have seen many that have whole sections of keys go dead. I can't comment on which manufacturer are the worst, nor can I confirm that this is due to the keyboard itself failing and not damage from a spill. All of these keyboards are scissor switch keyboards, as I support mainly laptops.

Now, there is something to be said about simplicity of design and reliability. If there are fewer physical parts, than there are fewer points of failure. However, if a system (switch, assembly, etc) is designed well enough, and these failure points are taken into consideration, then they can be nullified. So a properly designed keyboard of any style is liable to last longer than a cheaply designed one. For this reason and others, I am drawn to "over engineered" things.

Also, reliability isn't everything. With my popular hall effect example, the switches may be rated for 30 billlion actuations, but they start to be harder to type on and feel terrible much sooner than that. I would rather have a keyboard last the longest without changing than last the longest. A rubberdome will get "mushy" after a long time (I imagine), a [vintage] hall effect switch will wear the slider, a cherry switch will [probably] lose tactility (based on my inet keyboard's almost linear blues)

But then again, mechanical keyboards aren't about reliability for me. They are about good design, repairability, and other reasons. This is why my opinion is skewed to my own preferences. Nevertheless, there are many mechanical keyboards that are certainly more reliable than rubber domes. All rubber domes? likely not. Just as there exist rubber domes so poorly designed they are less reliable than the average (or even bottom quartile) mechanical keyboard.

[Neo.X]

Someone buy the mechanical keyboards for the typing feel, someone buy it for the look, someone buy it for the DIY, someone buy it for the keycaps. But I don't think anyone buy it because the reliability. 
 

[davkol]

I had quite a few rubber domes with sticky, way too stiff keys that sometimes didn't register. Logitech Wave, MS Natural keyboard line (especially the 4k and the previous multimedia one) and that compact dell keyboard to name at least some. Moreover, I trashed a box full of rubber domes last week. Two keytronics didn't work at all, one KME regularly missed keystrokes, some keys on one dell quietkey registered only when hammered.

[1391406]

I had quite a few rubber domes with sticky, way too stiff keys that sometimes didn't register. Logitech Wave, MS Natural keyboard line (especially the 4k and the previous multimedia one) and that compact dell keyboard to name at least some. Moreover, I trashed a box full of rubber domes last week. Two keytronics didn't work at all, one KME regularly missed keystrokes, some keys on one dell quietkey registered only when hammered.

Those were your personal keyboards?

[davkol]

I had quite a few rubber domes with sticky, way too stiff keys that sometimes didn't register. Logitech Wave, MS Natural keyboard line (especially the 4k and the previous multimedia one) and that compact dell keyboard to name at least some. Moreover, I trashed a box full of rubber domes last week. Two keytronics didn't work at all, one KME regularly missed keystrokes, some keys on one dell quietkey registered only when hammered.

Those were your personal keyboards?

IIRC only the MS Ergo 4k (two of them actually). The others were used by other family members for the most part.

[E TwentyNine]

And no buckling springs are not just mech over rubber.  It is either a capacitive membrane or a capacitive PCB from the very early models.  There is no cup to my knowledge.

I thought Model F's were the only capacitive switch in the IBM line. I didn't think Model M's were capacitive, membrane or otherwise.

Model M's are not capacitive.

[ch_123]

I thought Model F's were the only capacitive switch in the IBM line. I didn't think Model M's were capacitive, membrane or otherwise.

Beam springs are also capacitive (the contact mechanism is compatible with the one used on the Model F, although there are some implementation differences). As pointed out elsewhere, Ms use a membrane contact mechanism.

In reference to the original question, one viewpoint is that it's the issue of longevity vs. reliability (an example of this elsewhere in the tech field is SSDs vs HDDs, one might expect an SSD to be more reliable because of the lack of issues caused by the moving parts in a HHD, but less long lasting due to the finite write cycles). As pointed out elsewhere, rubber domes actually make quite good sense because they are simple, and thus there are relatively few points of failure (and indeed, lots of the bad press comes from low quality implementations, not the design/concept itself). Compare this with the example of Blue Cherry switches, where all the finnicky plastic parts have a high potential for breaking down, but are rated for much longer life spans than a rubber dome.

On the other end of the scale, you have hall effect switches that are borderline indestructible and last forever. I think comes down to what I see as the big problem with the term "mechanical keyboards" - it has grown to cover such a huge variety of different switches, which often have very little in common with each other, but by bundling them together, people assume they share more common traits than they really do. So I guess my answer to your question is, which mechanical keyboards are we talking about? Some are more reliable than rubber domes, some are less reliable. Some are more pleasant to type on than rubber domes, some are not. It all depends on what exactly we are talking about.

[Krigo]

I love mechanical keyboards and I think, personally, that the definitely offer a better typing experience than your usual rubber dome (except Topre  )
But as you've stated multiple times I've never had a rubber dome keyboard crap out on me in any short (or long) expanse of time.

Also, as this is a keyboard enthusiast forum where mechanical keyboards reign supreme I'm not sure you'll find the most unbiased and accurate stories and opinions on rubber domes here.
Not saying everyone is a liar but... yeah.

[1391406]

So I guess my answer to your question is, which mechanical keyboards are we talking about? Some are more reliable than rubber domes, some are less reliable. Some are more pleasant to type on than rubber domes, some are not. It all depends on what exactly we are talking about.

General consumer use (eg. Cherry, Alps) rather than special applications, such as the military, power plants, aircraft, etc.(eg. hall effect).

[zerone]

I'm new to mechanical keyboards (talking about Cherry MX in my case), so i can only tell about my experiences with rubberdomes. None of my rubberdomes was completely broken when i bought a new one except for one with a broken cable. So in view of that the membrane switches were quite "durable".

The reason why i want to change is not the possibility of activating a switch after some years - and this topic pretty comes down to this question. I want a keyboard which doesnt change its typing feel over the months and years. My current keyboard is 1 year old and begins to feel stiff and i have to press the keys harder than when i bought it. And that is exactly what EVERY rubberdome keyboard did. I exchanged them after 2-3 years in average, but the feeling began to change during the first year and continued on getting worse.

After doing some Research i think that exactly that will be better with Cherry MX switches.

Another reason is modding the keyboard, but thats not important in this thread.

I would still recommend rubberdomes to friends who don't type much, just because it would be senseless for them to get one.
Hydraulic disc brakes for bicycles come to my mind when i'm looking for a comparison. Because you have to change the hydraulic oil every two years and don't have an "attach and forget" part on your bike. But if you reach some kind of aspiration in your biking sport you wouldn't want to miss them.

[1391406]

I want a keyboard which doesnt change its typing feel over the months and years.

Have you thought about an IBM Model M or Unicomp?

[microsoft windows]

The model M's will certainly hold up very well over the years--I'd say they're probably the most robust "mainstream" keyboards out there.

[zerone]

Have you thought about an IBM Model M or Unicomp?

No, because i want to shorten the key travel and 2mm (which is possible on Cherry MX) seem pretty perfect to me.

[uzoc]

I'm sure many of you will have an opinion about this. What do you think?  I ask because I see more people experiencing problems with mechanical switches than cheap rubber dome keyboards. In fact, I almost never hear anyone complain about their cheap keyboard acting flaky. Considering mechanical switches are more intricate(and delicate), doesn't it stand to reason they're more likely to break compared to membrane based switches?

Just wondering.

Anything mechanical (moving parts) is more prone to breaking/needing maintenance than anything not/less mechanical (electronics).
That's why for example, in a computer, a standard hard disk, mouse, keyboard, CD/DVD drive will break sooner than anything else that's electronic in the computer.
Hence; a mechanical keyboard that has more moving/breakable parts, should break sooner than a rubber dome (quality of build/parts being the same).     

[Hellmark]

Anything mechanical (moving parts) is more prone to breaking/needing maintenance than anything not/less mechanical (electronics).
That's why for example, in a computer, a standard hard disk, mouse, keyboard, CD/DVD drive will break sooner than anything else that's electronic in the computer.
Hence; a mechanical keyboard that has more moving/breakable parts, should break sooner than a rubber dome (quality of build/parts being the same).     

Difference is most rubber domes are made with vastly cheaper materials, so they wear out quickly.

Hellmark, you must be a gentle typist.

Well, I have limited feeling in my right hand, so I do tend to mash keys a bit hard. Also, it is partly to do with just really typing a lot.

[rowie]

For me, I love mechanical keyboards and green switches because I feel like I never have to second guess what I have typed. I know a lot of people get bothered by the loud sounds of the clicking and clacking. But I just love those kinds of sounds!

[eth0s]

I'm sure many of you will have an opinion about this. What do you think?  I ask because I see more people experiencing problems with mechanical switches than cheap rubber dome keyboards. In fact, I almost never hear anyone complain about their cheap keyboard acting flaky. Considering mechanical switches are more intricate(and delicate), doesn't it stand to reason they're more likely to break compared to membrane based switches?

Just wondering.

Mechanical keyboards are not for everybody.  The best solution may be to just go back to rubber domes.  However, if you want to get a mechanical that is not prone to switch bounce, shiny keycaps, or broken cherry MX switches, then get a Topre keyboard.  They are more expensive than Cherry MX keyboards.  Topre is like an Acura, whereas Cherry MX would be like a fully-loaded Honda, to use your automobile analogy.  A rubber dome keyboard would therefore be like a cheap low-end Chevrolet, or worse some Chinese car.  They are cheap, but unreliable after a short time.  However, TBH, the automobile analogy is a strain, since auto's are really not comparable to keyboards.

There isn't exactly a community of people interested in rubber dome keyboards and therefore, no one vents that there $10 RD keyboard broke, they just replace it with another and move on.

^ +1.  Best answer.  Sample bias skews the results you see on geekhack.org.  OP is misinterpreting the over-reporting of mechanical failures on this website as evidence of a greater failure rate if mechanical keyboards over rubber domes.  This is a false conclusion, due to the lack of competent data on geekhack regarding the failure of rubber domes.   In fact, there is virtually no discussion of rubber domes on this site.

[1391406]

OP is misinterpreting the over-reporting of mechanical failures on this website as evidence of a greater failure rate if mechanical keyboards over rubber domes.  This is a false conclusion, due to the lack of competent data on geekhack regarding the failure of rubber domes.   In fact, there is virtually no discussion of rubber domes on this site.

Where did I state that I fail to hear anyone complain about cheap keyboards exclusively on Geekhack?

"I see more people experiencing problems with mechanical switches than cheap rubber dome keyboards. In fact, I almost never hear anyone complain about their cheap keyboard acting flaky."

It was a reference to my general experience.

[uzoc]

Anything mechanical (moving parts) is more prone to breaking/needing maintenance than anything not/less mechanical (electronics).
That's why for example, in a computer, a standard hard disk, mouse, keyboard, CD/DVD drive will break sooner than anything else that's electronic in the computer.
Hence; a mechanical keyboard that has more moving/breakable parts, should break sooner than a rubber dome (quality of build/parts being the same).     

Difference is most rubber domes are made with vastly cheaper materials, so they wear out quickly.

Hellmark, you must be a gentle typist.

Well, I have limited feeling in my right hand, so I do tend to mash keys a bit hard. Also, it is partly to do with just really typing a lot.

"... a mechanical keyboard that has more moving/breakable parts, should break sooner than a rubber dome (quality of build/parts being the same).

[terran5992]

OP is misinterpreting the over-reporting of mechanical failures on this website as evidence of a greater failure rate if mechanical keyboards over rubber domes.  This is a false conclusion, due to the lack of competent data on geekhack regarding the failure of rubber domes.   In fact, there is virtually no discussion of rubber domes on this site.

Where did I state that I fail to hear anyone complain about cheap keyboards exclusively on Geekhack?

"I see more people experiencing problems with mechanical switches than cheap rubber dome keyboards. In fact, I almost never hear anyone complain about their cheap keyboard acting flaky."

It was a reference to my general experience.

No one really is going to use the same rubber dome keyboard for 10 years

[1391406]

OP is misinterpreting the over-reporting of mechanical failures on this website as evidence of a greater failure rate if mechanical keyboards over rubber domes.  This is a false conclusion, due to the lack of competent data on geekhack regarding the failure of rubber domes.   In fact, there is virtually no discussion of rubber domes on this site.

Where did I state that I fail to hear anyone complain about cheap keyboards exclusively on Geekhack?

"I see more people experiencing problems with mechanical switches than cheap rubber dome keyboards. In fact, I almost never hear anyone complain about their cheap keyboard acting flaky."

It was a reference to my general experience.

No one really is going to use the same rubber dome keyboard for 10 years

I would typically buy a new rubber dome keyboard whenever I upgraded my computer in the past, which was once every 3 to 4 years.

Again, not to drag Topre into this, but since they use a rubber dome, do you think people will be using (or able to use) theirs for 10 years?

[1391406]

Anything mechanical (moving parts) is more prone to breaking/needing maintenance than anything not/less mechanical (electronics).
That's why for example, in a computer, a standard hard disk, mouse, keyboard, CD/DVD drive will break sooner than anything else that's electronic in the computer.
Hence; a mechanical keyboard that has more moving/breakable parts, should break sooner than a rubber dome (quality of build/parts being the same).     

Difference is most rubber domes are made with vastly cheaper materials, so they wear out quickly.

Some, not all.

[terran5992]

Topres are capactive switches , They feel 10000000000x better than rubber domes

[1391406]

Topres are capactive switches , They feel 10000000000x better than rubber domes

Well, but they also use rubber, and if rubber degrades over time then that's something to consider. I don't know what grade they use, but it's a consideration.

[davkol]

Topres are capactive switches , They feel 10000000000x better than rubber domes

The feel is determined by the rubber dome. There are several threads that discuss aging of Topre's RD–and changes in stiffness or feel.

[raizur]

Many if not most rubber dome keyboard users have probably never heard of mechanical keyboards.

Okay, but in all your years of using a rubber dome board(assuming it was years), did you ever have one flake out on you?

I have had a laptop model. some hp i think in the past which had 2 keyboards die out on them. In looking into the issue I realized they were rubber dome. With that said it was the only time it ever happened to me. Also I have noticed more people who abuse a keyboard on theyre main pc wouldnt know the difference other then sound if you switched out theres.

[Polymer]

Topres are capactive switches , They feel 10000000000x better than rubber domes

The feel is determined by the rubber dome. There are several threads that discuss aging of Topre's RD–and changes in stiffness or feel.

It isn't just the rubber dome..it is the slider portion...The rubber dome provides the tactile bump and the resistance but it isn't responsible for the entire feel. 

Anyone that says they've never had a normal rubber dome keyboard fail hasn't dealt w/ computers nearly enough...

How long is "enough? I've repaired something like 2000-3000 computers, and while I've replaced my share of keyboards, more often than not it's due to damage. Nevertheless, I have seen many that have whole sections of keys go dead. I can't comment on which manufacturer are the worst, nor can I confirm that this is due to the keyboard itself failing and not damage from a spill. All of these keyboards are scissor switch keyboards, as I support mainly laptops.

I've sold many times that in previous life....keyboards just get replaced...they don't get sent in for repair....They will die with damage and without damage...

I personally know several people that wear through rubber dome keyboards...not quickly..but they do...and some just die..they just do...That doesn't mean mechanicals also don't just die or have issues..they do...is it as often?  I'd probably say no...

[spiceBar]

Before being into mechanical keyboards, I have purchased and used many cheap rubber domes. Even cheap ones sold at 10x their price by Logitech.

Most of them are still working now, but they really feel crappy. With time, keys become loose or difficult to press. I don't even think it's the wear of the rubber (or silicone) domes. The problem is with the mechanical build of the keys.

Rubber domes are mechanically inferior, because they are designed to be cheap.

I had some fail on me, and generally -bad luck- these were non-replaceable ones, like the one on my Dell X200 laptop. I agree that scissor keyboards are really the crappiest, most fragile and most unreliable ones. I can't stand them anymore.

But I don't really care that mechanical keyboards are more reliable.

Keyboards are tools for me. It's the tool I use all day to operate a computer. Even if I had to change them every 6 months, I don't care. What? $300 a year? No really, I don't care. Given the time I spend on them, this is peanuts. And they don't fail anyway.

I do care about the comfort of typing on a REAL keyboard, a mechanical one. Not one that has been build to be as cheap as possible, but one that has been build to be as comfortable as possible, and which has been built with decades of engineering knowledge. And one that I can customize a little bit so it feels even better, for example by adding O-rings, a little bit of grease, or by changing the keycaps so they look better, are easier to read and feel better to my fingers.

Heck, I can even change how my mechanical keyboard sounds!

Reliability is not the point.

The point is, if you spend a lot of time on a computer, using a mechanical keyboard just makes sense, and inflicting yourself the pain of using a rubber dome is either ignorance, stupidity or masochism (I make an exception for lack of money, that is the only valid excuse).

Oh and BTW... Mechanical keyboards happen to be actually more reliable under normal use. So we can change them when we want, not when they want.

[davkol]

Topres are capactive switches , They feel 10000000000x better than rubber domes

The feel is determined by the rubber dome. There are several threads that discuss aging of Topre's RD–and changes in stiffness or feel.

It isn't just the rubber dome..it is the slider portion...The rubber dome provides the tactile bump and the resistance but it isn't responsible for the entire feel. 

Thank you Captain Obvious. Of course, e.g. keycaps affect the feel as well, but that's not the point.

[Polymer]

Topres are capactive switches , They feel 10000000000x better than rubber domes

The feel is determined by the rubber dome. There are several threads that discuss aging of Topre's RD–and changes in stiffness or feel.

It isn't just the rubber dome..it is the slider portion...The rubber dome provides the tactile bump and the resistance but it isn't responsible for the entire feel. 

Thank you Captain Obvious. Of course, e.g. keycaps affect the feel as well, but that's not the point.

You still don't get it do you...You said the feel is determined by the rubber dome..but it isn't just the rubber dome.  What separates the feel for Topre and normal rubber domes is NOT the spring is mainly the slider.  I guess it wasn't that obvious.

Maybe that is what you were trying to say...but nothing in your quote suggests that....*POW*

[ch_123]

Of course, the rubber dome in the Topre has no effect on the reliability of the switching mechanism because its sole purpose is to provide tactility. Whether or not the keyboard feels nice to type in 10 years time after the rubber has degraded to some extent or another is another question, but it will have no bearing on whether the keyboard works or not.

[davkol]

Topres are capactive switches , They feel 10000000000x better than rubber domes

The feel is determined by the rubber dome. There are several threads that discuss aging of Topre's RD–and changes in stiffness or feel.

It isn't just the rubber dome..it is the slider portion...The rubber dome provides the tactile bump and the resistance but it isn't responsible for the entire feel. 

Thank you Captain Obvious. Of course, e.g. keycaps affect the feel as well, but that's not the point.

You still don't get it do you...You said the feel is determined by the rubber dome..but it isn't just the rubber dome.  What separates the feel for Topre and normal rubber domes is NOT the spring is mainly the slider.  I guess it wasn't that obvious.

Maybe that is what you were trying to say...but nothing in your quote suggests that....*POW*

Maybe you should read the original quote. The fact that those switches are "capactive" has nothing to do with their feel.

[Polymer]

Maybe you should read the original quote. The fact that those switches are "capactive" has nothing to do with their feel.

Maybe that should've been what you said then right?

[kuschl0n]

My old Logitech G15 (first and blue edition) got worn out after about 3 or 4 years. The keys started to feel mushy and my impression that sometimes keystrokes just weren't registered got stronger and stronger over the following years. So after 7 years of service (which consisted of regular typing, programming, gaming and occasional rageouts) I replaced it with a Cherry Evolution Stream XT.

Another example: The rubberdome keyboards used in the pc pool at my workplace. Most of them feel very mushy, some (very old ones) feel extremely stiff and their keys are quite hesitant to rise after a keystroke. The few keyboards that feel o.k. appear to be very new.

Maybe these examples are quite extreme since I'm a computer science student and the research facility I work for does programming-related research. But one can get the impression that rubberdome keyboards indeed wear off rather "well", when compared to mechanical ones.

EDIT: Small addition.