Author Topic: Love the Model M? Check this out!  (Read 20270 times)

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Offline clee

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Love the Model M? Check this out!
« on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 03:22:20 »
So, I'm new to this forum but it looks like there are at least a few other Model M addicts around here.

If you're one of them, you might be interested in this project I've been working on for a few weeks...

http://mg8.org/rump/

It's a USB-native replacement logic board for the Model M, and I've verified that it works on my (standard) 1390120s, 1390131s, 1391401s, and (space saver) 1391472s and 1392980s. Tested with multiple PC and Mac hosts, as well as a PS3 and an Xbox 360, and it works on all of them.

Offline 003

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« Reply #1 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 07:52:19 »
Thats really cool, can it support n-key rollover?

Offline clee

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« Reply #2 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 08:18:10 »
Sure, the firmware can.

Unfortunately the keyboard circuit is unchanged, so, no. Diodes would need to be added all over to enable that, and I'm not sure I can do something that invasive without destroying the keyboard.

I do have working ghost-key prevention, though!

Offline iMav

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« Reply #3 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 08:53:31 »
That...is...awesome.

I am seriously interested in trying out your work for myself.  Once you have some completed logic boards, I'd love to take a few off your hands (for $$$, of course)  ;)

Offline 003

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« Reply #4 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 08:56:45 »
Quote from: clee;6264
Sure, the firmware can.

Unfortunately the keyboard circuit is unchanged, so, no. Diodes would need to be added all over to enable that, and I'm not sure I can do something that invasive without destroying the keyboard.

I do have working ghost-key prevention, though!

What kind of diodes would be needed, and where would they be needed? I might be able to try that. Heck, if you've got a makeup of the schematic, you can have a new PCB fabricated pretty cheaply.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, if you were to make a board with the diodes in place and n-key rollover support, I would buy one from you.

Offline Mikecase00

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« Reply #5 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 11:29:54 »
That's awesome.  I bow down before you at the alter of the mighty 'M'.  Where do I send money to pre-order one of the first batch of production PCBs?
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Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #6 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 11:41:21 »
I don't think you can add diodes to a membrane?

Any good links on the matrix/diodes/controller stuff?

Edit: Very well done, clee!

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Offline iMav

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« Reply #7 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 11:48:49 »
Personally, I don't care about n-key rollover.  And, frankly, I'm not overly anxious for USB on my Model M's (adapter works just fine).  BUT, I really like the idea and this WOULD let me consolidate cables (I'd swap the in small "b" USB connector so that I could use the same cables as I currently do for my HHKB Pro).

If clee is willing, I'm sure he could make a few bucks off of the membership here.  :)

Offline clee

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« Reply #8 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 15:38:42 »
Quote from: 003;6268
What kind of diodes would be needed, and where would they be needed? I might be able to try that. Heck, if you've got a makeup of the schematic, you can have a new PCB fabricated pretty cheaply.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, if you were to make a board with the diodes in place and n-key rollover support, I would buy one from you.


http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/one_html/ has a more thorough explanation of the ghost-key problem and how diodes can fix it.

The problem, of course, is that those diodes need to be placed on the *keyboard itself*, not in the logic board that I'm making. You would need to add a new diode in series with each key, and you'd be very lucky if you could do this to one key without ruining the board, let alone 101 of them... (Of course, now that I've said this, someone will reveal their totally sweet danger-free diode addition mod.)

So, no, I probably won't be attempting that. Not until someone else tries it and perfects it first. :)

Offline clee

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« Reply #9 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 16:16:08 »
Quote from: iMav;6273
Personally, I don't care about n-key rollover.  And, frankly, I'm not overly anxious for USB on my Model M's (adapter works just fine).  BUT, I really like the idea and this WOULD let me consolidate cables (I'd swap the in small "b" USB connector so that I could use the same cables as I currently do for my HHKB Pro).


The only reason I didn't go with the mini-B connector is that I haven't found any that are convenient to solder for beginners (and I am by no means an expert at soldering - I don't know how to solder super-tiny SMT components, for example). The regular B plugs fit perfectly on the perfboards I've been prototyping on, though, and they're easy to work with; plus, they fit perfectly in the hole that the original connector used, with a little extra room to spare :)

Quote from: iMav;6273
If clee is willing, I'm sure he could make a few bucks off of the membership here.  :)


Quote from: Mikecase00;6270
Where do I send money to pre-order one of the first batch of production PCBs?


I'm definitely interested in selling these. I've been talking with Brandon Ermita of clickykeyboards.com and it looks like he's interested in stocking them for sale, so that might be the easiest way to do it. If you want to build it yourself, the total bill-of-materials works out to (roughly):

$12 for a perfboard (or $25 for a single printed circuit board from batchpcb.com)
$6 for the microcontroller to run the firmware
$2 for 2 68Ω resistors, one 1.5kΩ resistor, one 100nF and two 22pF capacitors
$2 for a timing crystal
$1 for two 3.6V Zener diodes
$0.50 for a USB plug

So the total cost for the raw components needed is about $24, plus shipping. And you'll need to have an AVR programmer, some wire fit for soldering, a soldering iron, and an old Model M PCB to remove the ribbon-cable reader components from.

We're all still waiting for the first PCB to arrive to verify that it actually works, but once I have one that does work, you'll be able to buy them. :)

Offline 003

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« Reply #10 on: Thu, 03 July 2008, 16:24:58 »
Quote from: clee;6294
http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/one_html/ has a more thorough explanation of the ghost-key problem and how diodes can fix it.

The problem, of course, is that those diodes need to be placed on the *keyboard itself*, not in the logic board that I'm making. You would need to add a new diode in series with each key, and you'd be very lucky if you could do this to one key without ruining the board, let alone 101 of them... (Of course, now that I've said this, someone will reveal their totally sweet danger-free diode addition mod.)

So, no, I probably won't be attempting that. Not until someone else tries it and perfects it first. :)

I am prepared to supply you with 15 new old-stock Model M keyboards for you to try this on, and also pay you $750 to do it. I can send the payment over paypal, and I will cover the paypal fee of 2.9% + $0.30.









Kidding, kidding of course.

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #11 on: Fri, 04 July 2008, 05:23:31 »
I think it would be great to have a 'user projects' subforum to keep all the DIY threads in one place.

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Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #12 on: Fri, 04 July 2008, 07:25:36 »
Well, we have the Modifications section in the wiki...

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #13 on: Fri, 04 July 2008, 07:56:40 »
You can't comment there. Or ask questions. Like with the reviews.

I just thought it would be nice to have them all in one place. Esp. for those who start new with keyboard mods.

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Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #14 on: Fri, 04 July 2008, 08:03:01 »
Actually, there is a comment function in the Wiki... but, yeah, a subforum probably would make more sense...

Offline iMav

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« Reply #15 on: Fri, 04 July 2008, 11:30:46 »
Quote from: sofa king;6309
I think it would be great to have a 'user projects' subforum to keep all the DIY threads in one place.

done

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #16 on: Fri, 04 July 2008, 11:31:05 »
There it is. :)

Thanks, iMav!

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Offline pex

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« Reply #17 on: Tue, 08 July 2008, 14:38:03 »
This is the kind of fantastic stuff I like to see around here...people getting down to hardware and software, making their tools work for them.

I particularly like the linkouts from your page describing the issue and your process to achieve a result...providing a bigger archive of information for our collective consciousness.  The format of the webpage seems mysteriously familiar...how long have you been lurking here before registering?

Quote
blah n-key blah diodes blah blah So, no, I probably won't be attempting that. Not until someone else tries it and perfects it first.


I would be that guy.  I'm a piece of **** and am not getting my project done very quickly.  (I find that there are not many good resources on the electronic specifics of n-key rollover or model M controllers -- particularly combining the two.)

Anyway, thanks for taking on such a project, publishing it, and bringing it here.
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Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #18 on: Tue, 08 July 2008, 14:53:43 »
Quote from: sofa king;6271
I don't think you can add diodes to a membrane?

?

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Offline pex

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« Reply #19 on: Tue, 08 July 2008, 17:22:37 »
Quote from: sofa king;6444
?


Obviously not a drop-in package at this time.  Questions about where I might go with my project should be addressed at http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=289 if they aren't effective for this thread.

Some engineering will definitely be involved!
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Offline clee

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reviving this thread!
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:06:05 »
Hey guys!

I've gotten some random emails from people who have been showing interest in my hacking so I figured I would post a status update.

I did order a couple of PCBs from BatchPCB and they came back great; they seem to work perfectly with 12MHz crystals and the ATmega16. (I did run into some weird problems with 16MHz crystals combined with the ATmega32, but the 12MHz/ATmega16 combo works great so I'm happy.)

I only ordered two PCBs from BatchPCB, and I'm using both of them, so I don't have any for sale yet, but I plan on putting in an order for 10 or 20 more PCBs by the end of the year. If anybody here is interested in buying, send me a PM! (It costs me roughly $24 in parts, shipping included, per board, last time I checked, so I was planning on charging $30 per board.)

If you don't feel like trusting some random dude on the forum who hasn't even had the decency to update this thread in months (which I wouldn't blame you for), here's the list of Mouser parts you can use to build your own, assuming you already own a soldering iron and an AVR programmer.

  • 1x Mouser #: 695-HC49US-12-U - HC49US Radial Leaded Crystals 12MHz 18pF HC49S
  • 1x Mouser #: 581-5ZH104ZEDAA - Ceramic Disc Capacitors .25LS .1UF 50V +80-20%
  • 1x Mouser #: 649-61729-1010BLF - USB Connectors USB TYPE B CON LEADFREE
  • 1x Mouser #: 594-5043ED1K500F - Metal Film Resistors 1/4Watt 1.5Kohms 1% SFR55 Historical p/n
  • 2x Mouser #: 512-BZX55C3V6 - Zener Diodes 3.6V 0.5W Zener
  • 1x Mouser #: 556-ATMEGA16-16PU - 40-pin ATmega16 AVR
  • 2x Mouser #: 594-5073NW68R00J - Metal Film Resistors 1watt 68ohms 5%
  • 2x Mouser #: 140-50N5-220J-TB-RC - Ceramic Disc Capacitors - 50V 22pF NPO 5%

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #21 on: Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:18:59 »
is clickykeyboards still showing interest? I hope you make *some* money off this.

incidentally shouldnt this entire thread be in the keyboard mods section?

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Offline clee

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« Reply #22 on: Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:43:00 »
Quote from: wellington1869;14329
is clickykeyboards still showing interest? I hope you make *some* money off this.

incidentally shouldnt this entire thread be in the keyboard mods section?


I haven't talked to the ClickyKeyboards guy in a few months but I'll definitely ping him once I get the PCBs in.

The keyboard mods section didn't exist when I started this thread. I'm fine with an admin moving it there, though!

Offline skriefal

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« Reply #23 on: Thu, 11 December 2008, 22:03:08 »
Would installing the pre-built PCB require any sort of soldering, or is it as easy as dropping the new PCB in and reconnecting a few ribbon cables?

Offline alpslover

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« Reply #24 on: Thu, 11 December 2008, 22:17:24 »
how quickly does the microcontroller scan for keypresses?  we've run into usb keyboards (like the das iii) that apparently don't do a very good job of it, resulting in typos that are the keyboard's fault.

discussion thread here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=909

Offline clee

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« Reply #25 on: Fri, 12 December 2008, 15:13:31 »
Quote from: skriefal;14345
Would installing the pre-built PCB require any sort of soldering, or is it as easy as dropping the new PCB in and reconnecting a few ribbon cables?

No, no soldering would be required - I'd send you a fully-assembled drop-in replacement board. You'd need to have a 7/32" thin-wall nut driver to open up your M, of course, but I assume everybody on these forums already has one of those... (Otherwise you wouldn't be able to open the case up to clean the thing, and you guys all keep your Ms clean. Right?)

The only gotcha is that the older Ms - the 1390120 and 1390131 for example - have one 16-pin connector and one 8-pin connector. Some of the 1391401s that I have contain the same connectors, but some of them have a 16-pin and a 12-pin - in later models, I think, they merged the 4-pin LED cable into the 8-pin keyboard matrix cable.

So just to be safe, I would suggest opening up your M and checking the ribbon cables to see which board you'd need.

Quote from: alpslover;14350
how quickly does the microcontroller scan for keypresses? we've run into usb keyboards (like the das iii) that apparently don't do a very good job of it, resulting in typos that are the keyboard's fault.

I'm actually not entirely sure exactly how many hundreds of full scans per second the code does in realtime, but the answer is "hundreds of times per second". I've never gotten a typo that wasn't actually my fingers hitting the keys in the wrong order with this firmware.

EDIT: A somewhat rough test, using PowerTOP, shows that my firmware appears to be waking up the USB controller roughly 150 times per second. I send a USB report once every full scan (which is a bug, but turns out to be useful in this case), so I think my sampling rate is roughly 2.5x that of the Das Keyboard 3.

I have, however, had some issues with certain systems and my board's firmware, but only in their BIOS interfaces. It works exactly as you'd expect on most of my machines but I have two that seem to receive way too many keypresses in the BIOS whenever I touch a key. I've tested it with Macs, PCs from various manufacturers, the Xbox 360, and the PS3, and it works on all of them that I've tried, but you may have a system that doesn't like it. If you have a system that my board doesn't work properly with, I'll give you a full refund.

I'm also looking into adding the ability to reflash the firmware over USB; this way, if it doesn't work right in your BIOS, but I figure out how to fix it, you can download the new firmware and flash it to the keyboard from your machine without even having to open up the keyboard. The USB-reflashable boards probably won't be ready for a few months - I haven't gotten one working yet.

Offline skriefal

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« Reply #26 on: Fri, 12 December 2008, 21:02:36 »
Quote from: clee;14473
No, no soldering would be required - I'd send you a fully-assembled drop-in replacement board. You'd need to have a 7/32" thin-wall nut driver to open up your M, of course, but I assume everybody on these forums already has one of those... (Otherwise you wouldn't be able to open the case up to clean the thing, and you guys all keep your Ms clean. Right?)


Cool.  Then I'm interested in one of the boards.  I'll open the case this weekend and check which connectors are used in my M.

Offline skriefal

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« Reply #27 on: Fri, 19 December 2008, 00:47:24 »
Quote from: clee;14473
No, no soldering would be required - I'd send you a fully-assembled drop-in replacement board. You'd need to have a 7/32" thin-wall nut driver to open up your M, of course, but I assume everybody on these forums already has one of those... (Otherwise you wouldn't be able to open the case up to clean the thing, and you guys all keep your Ms clean. Right?)


Stupid question time -- where would one actually find a 7/32" nut driver?  All that I've been able to find are multi-packs with 5-7 different sizes, none of which are 7/32".  And with the tight space around the nuts, I suspect that the next-largest size (1/4") won't work.

Offline cchan

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« Reply #28 on: Fri, 19 December 2008, 00:53:50 »
Quote from: skriefal;15330
Stupid question time -- where would one actually find a 7/32" nut driver?  All that I've been able to find are multi-packs with 5-7 different sizes, none of which are 7/32".  And with the tight space around the nuts, I suspect that the next-largest size (1/4") won't work.
Only place I've ever seen them is clickykeyboards.com. When I asked at an auto parts store, they looked at me as if I had grown an extra head. And no a 1/4 would not work, least of all because it wouldn't engage the screw, let alone fit in the screw wells.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #29 on: Fri, 19 December 2008, 01:22:59 »
Quote from: skriefal;15330
Stupid question time -- where would one actually find a 7/32" nut driver?  All that I've been able to find are multi-packs with 5-7 different sizes, none of which are 7/32".  And with the tight space around the nuts, I suspect that the next-largest size (1/4") won't work.


a few on amazon.

is that what you're looking for?

I recently bought a set on ebay that included 7/32.

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Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #30 on: Fri, 19 December 2008, 01:39:15 »
5.5mm works better.

Best bet? Go to Sears, get a 5.5mm deep well socket. (Has to be deep well.) Then, a 1/4" drive ratchet will get the job done.

Offline philodox

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« Reply #31 on: Fri, 19 December 2008, 14:54:29 »
I didn't have any trouble finding a suitable tool at the local hardware store.  You just need to ask for a 5.5mm that is thin and long.

I totally want one or two of these boards once they are ready btw. :)

Offline skriefal

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« Reply #32 on: Fri, 19 December 2008, 15:05:05 »
Hmm... I never thought of checking Amazon.com for this.  Looks like I can get one shipped for about $5 as I have a 'prime' account with them.  I'll probably do that.  Nice and convenient.  Will have to wait until after Christmas, however.

As for local hardware stores... they're probably much non-existent around here.  Home Depot, Lowes, and.... that's about it.  Those were the stores that I'd already checked unsuccessfully.  Hadn't thought to check auto stores or Sears.

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #33 on: Sat, 20 December 2008, 16:49:53 »
Quote from: skriefal;15330
Stupid question time -- where would one actually find a 7/32" nut driver?  All that I've been able to find are multi-packs with 5-7 different sizes, none of which are 7/32".  And with the tight space around the nuts, I suspect that the next-largest size (1/4") won't work.

I got one on ebay Germany and when I later checked Clickykeyboards it was the same.

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Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #34 on: Thu, 05 March 2009, 23:41:10 »
Sorry for the threadcromancy, but did anything ever become of this project?

I like the concept of keeping all the mess internal, avoiding a comical chain of ever-more-obscure adapters hanging at the far end of my ca. 1992 1391401, but I can feel the writing on the wall-- a motherboard I bought recently had only one PS/2 port, and yhe time is coming when there will be none.

Surprising:  Nobody does a cable that's USB on one side, and that modular jack the older Ms used to allow PS/2 or AT plugs on the other.  That would be of similar cleanliness with much less rework needed to the keyboard itself.
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Offline iMav

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« Reply #35 on: Fri, 06 March 2009, 00:22:27 »
Quote from: Hak Foo;23681
Surprising:  Nobody does a cable that's USB on one side, and that modular jack the older Ms used to allow PS/2 or AT plugs on the other.  That would be of similar cleanliness with much less rework needed to the keyboard itself.

This would definitely be cool...but certainly not surprising that one is not available.  It simply would not be cost-effective, considering the low volume that would be sold.

Offline tad

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« Reply #36 on: Fri, 06 March 2009, 03:06:07 »
Besides, the difference between AT and PS/2 is merely plug shape, but USB is another beast entirely. You'd have to have something chunky hanging off of that cable, like a PS/2->USB signal converter. At which point you might as well spend $10 on a converter anyway.

Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #37 on: Fri, 06 March 2009, 07:49:31 »
Or a controller with more logic to tell when it's connected to USB instead of AT or PS/2, which also defeats the purpose.

Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #38 on: Fri, 06 March 2009, 08:27:08 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;23707
Or a controller with more logic to tell when it's connected to USB instead of AT or PS/2, which also defeats the purpose.


Well, the "purpose" I envisioned was "having a single piece for the sake of tidiness, rather than cable, plus a seperate adaptor, which all together sticks out very far", more than anything else.
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Offline FKSSR

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« Reply #39 on: Fri, 06 March 2009, 12:55:13 »
That is a pretty cool mod, but I think I'd rather keep the M in original condition and buy a Unicomp.
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« Reply #40 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 13:35:24 »

Offline FKSSR

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« Reply #41 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 15:24:02 »
I'd prefer a US version keyboard, but the artist is from Paris, so what do you expect? :D
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Offline clee

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« Reply #42 on: Sat, 25 April 2009, 05:07:51 »
Short version: I made some modifications to the first design I had to try to add some pins to do LEDs, and the PCB I got from the new design didn't work. So I've been working on this on and off in my spare time but haven't made a ton of progress since the updated PCB failed.

I might just do a run of 10 or 20 without LED support just so that people can give it a shot and decide if this is the future for them. If you have a 1390131 or 1390120 or any of the space savers, you don't have LEDs anyway...

Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #43 on: Sat, 25 April 2009, 13:34:08 »
It's good to see the project alive.  I love the concept (just for the tidiness of having everything sealed in the case, although I'd bet you could also fit a seven-port hub, and an entire RAID system back there :) )
Overton130, Box Pale Blues.

Offline skriefal

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« Reply #44 on: Wed, 08 July 2009, 22:09:34 »
I contacted Chris recently about obtaining one of these boards to retrofit into a 1991-vintage 1391401 that I've had for many, many years.  The USB board arrived today, and I found that it was an easy drop-in replacement into the 1391401.  I've had minimal time to use the USB-enabled M so far -- just a few emails and forum posts -- but it has functioned well during this limited use.  I'm considering taking it into work to give it a more thorough workout.

Until then, here are a few photos of the board and the installation.

UPS does their darndest to destroy the package (but thankfully fails):


The stock and replacement PCBs.  I doubt that I need to point out which is which: :smile:


The new PCB installed onto the rear side of the blackplate:


Rear shot after reseating the keyboard and backplate onto the back casing:


Close-up shot of the USB connector:


One last note.  The firmware on this board is flashable through the USB connection.  This will allow updated firmware to be loaded -- e.g. after support is added for the caps/scroll/num lock LEDs.

Offline applescript

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« Reply #45 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 08:15:29 »
my question is, why cant we just order a usb controller from unicomp itself and do the mod?
Topre Realforce 86UB | IBM Model M 1391401 | IBM Model M Industrial 82G2383 | IBM Model M Space Saver 1391472 | Unicomp Endurapro

Offline wulax

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« Reply #46 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 09:07:36 »
Quote from: applescript;328460
my question is, why cant we just order a usb controller from unicomp itself and do the mod?

The controller boards for Model M and Unicomp keyboards are completely different. The Unicomp ones are smaller and located above the numpad part. You would need to replace the membrane sheets on your Model M with one from Unicomp for that to work. Or rework and possibly reprogram the controller from Unicomp, a feat more difficult than making a DIY controller.



(Photos taken by Ripster)

Offline wulax

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« Reply #47 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 12:45:02 »
Quote from: ripster;328583
Now THIS would be an awesome group buy if somebody wanted to simply make a run of PCBs, post part lists, and make idiot proof instructions.  I had forgotten how good a job Clee did on this.


I have though about doing something like this since I etched my own controller PCB but it seems pointless. To burn the bootloader on the AVR MCU you need a serial programming device such as the Bus Pirate, Teensy, or similar, something which few people own or would buy simply to make a keyboard controller. Those who own one are likely perfectly capable of etching their own board or use a stripboard. But perhaps I am pessimistic. I would probably buy a professionally made PCB if such a group buy were to take place.

Offline Huntor0

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« Reply #48 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 12:52:21 »
I'll take 2.
Majestouch-2  Linear R MX-Red / Topre Realforce 103U-UW / XArmor U9BL-S MX-Brown / Deck Fire 82 MX- Black / TG3 BLT82 (Blood guard removed) MX- Black / Model M 42h1292 19JAN96 / Model M 1391401 23MAR93

Offline wulax

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« Reply #49 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 14:29:13 »
Ok, well if someone wants to do this and needs a head start, here are the schematics and board artwork I used. They are based on the "Rump" and "Dulcimer" controller board projects, simpler to make than Dulcimer and contains connector for the LED part unlike Rump.

I would advice using rhomann's/Mnemonix firmware as it seems more advanced than the others.
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8406
https://github.com/rhomann/kbupgrade

I don't have a photo of my controller easily accessible, but here is a Kicad rendering:


Only a single sided copper sheet is needed. It can obviously be slimmed down to save money. I'm not completely sure the layout follows the Atmel design guidelines but it works good enough for me. I am not a professional though, so it would probably be best to have some EE make a better design.

I also have a smd version somewhere resembeling the one "Hydron" made, but it is a project I never completed.