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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: azhdar on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:26:15

Title: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:26:15
(http://i.imgur.com/s8YE3g4.jpg)

Long left shift is downright stupid, the argument that it's easier to reach is false since you're supposed to reach it with pinky anyway.
1.25+1 is better than 2.25 Left Shift.

The backslash key: only alphas that isn't 1u, first mistake, and it's right into a column of modifiers and it ruins the color logic of the board. The person who made this was clearly on acid when he did ANSI.

Backspace/backslash position: backspace you we 2 keys alphas and backslash the backspace like on HHKB. It saves the color scheme, save the logic of modifiers/alphas position color, key dimensions.
People all praise the HHKB layout for backspace position for a reason it makes sense.


That would give ansi 2 new alphas, not sure what you would use it for since english doesn't have accent characters. Maybe some random things like €,£ ² ...

Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,

all heil ISO.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: sth on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:29:40
ISO has equally-terrible backspace positioning and Enter is even further away than ANSI.

Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: suicidal_orange on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:33:27
UK ISO makes good use of the extra "alpha," I mean who doesn't need instant access to the hashtag these days.  Twice a year I might need a wiggle (~) too :))
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: nmur on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:35:18
I agree with the HHKB backspace points (except colour scheme, most custom sets these days have mod coloured replacement for the backslash). the ISO layout doesn't even has this though..

However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.

Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: sth on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:36:40
However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.

agreed.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:37:50
ISO has equally-terrible backspace positioning and Enter is even further away than ANSI.



I agree that the ISO enter is bad and of poor design.

The corrected version of ANSI I explained would be better than ISO & current Ansi, but I don't think any of those layouts are moving anytime soon.

UK ISO makes good use of the extra "alpha," I mean who doesn't need instant access to the hashtag these days.  Twice a year I might need a wiggle (~) too :))

Never hurts to have them somewhere on the board, we have things even more stupid on Azerty like this: ¤ and this §

Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Karura on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:42:04
HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:42:37


However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.



Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).


HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/

The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Karura on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:46:02
The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.

Fair enough, in that case, I'd have a hard time arguing which is better. It must be muscle memory or something, but I do enjoy having the ANSI long left shift, it helps out with walking/crouching in games.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: sth on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:48:47


However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.



Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).


HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/

The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.

ok then HHKB layout is best layout :3
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:50:04


However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.



Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).


HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/

The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.

ok then HHKB layout is best layout :3

Only missing a short Lshift to be perfect :>
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: nmur on Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:51:49




However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.



Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).

as can I, but I'm talking about the travel distance  required for the left pinkie to go from its resting position on the 'a' to 'shift', and not just whether it can be reached or not.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: davkol on Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:15:23
Both are terrible.

A combination of all ISO, ANSI and JIS would be tolerable.
(http://i.imgur.com/1Sz0XrX.png)
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: digi on Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:16:34
US > France..

ANSI > ISO
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Bromono on Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:21:58
I just don't understand the Big Ass Enter key.

I only use left shift and never touch the right shift.

I love the HHKB layout more then any layout out atm. takes a couple days to stop hitting the | key instead of the backspace. but other then that HHKB layout for lyfe.

If only the realforce shared the same 60% layout =(((
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:40:53

Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,

all heil ISO.


Just like a Frenchy to make a competition out of a few very small differences :D

I think the large left shift is particularly useful when shift-queuing and having 6+ hotkeys in an RTS

The backspace is only a big deal to those who frequently make mistakes :D speaking of mistakes...that iso enter....
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Zorox on Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:57:17
My typing behavior also fits ISO much better than ANSI, after I finish one sentence in chat I always make a short pause (~0,5s) to check it and press Enter. The extended gesture of my right pinky lands always right on the big-ass ISO Enter, and in case of correction needed the Backspace right on it can be easily reached. With the extra key I can code better, while next to the short L-Shift is <> in one key and I can also reach + # -_´ within one range on the right side (Im doing ISO-DE). Although I was used to ANSI for about 10 years in my homeland but when I moved in Germany ISO just won my love and I stick to it until now.

Long live ISO!

And Im thinking of making a trading thread especially for ISO keyset, so that our minority can more easily find ISO deals, not in the ANSI ocean of classified threads :D
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Yoe on Thu, 24 September 2015, 13:08:54

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/s8YE3g4.jpg)


Long left shift is downright stupid, the argument that it's easier to reach is false since you're supposed to reach it with pinky anyway.
1.25+1 is better than 2.25 Left Shift.

The backslash key: only alphas that isn't 1u, first mistake, and it's right into a column of modifiers and it ruins the color logic of the board. The person who made this was clearly on acid when he did ANSI.

Backspace/backslash position: backspace you we 2 keys alphas and backslash the backspace like on HHKB. It saves the color scheme, save the logic of modifiers/alphas position color, key dimensions.
People all praise the HHKB layout for backspace position for a reason it makes sense.


That would give ansi 2 new alphas, not sure what you would use it for since english doesn't have accent characters. Maybe some random things like €,£ ² ...

Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,

all heil ISO.

All this. Could not agree more!
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jerue on Thu, 24 September 2015, 13:38:22
My only beef with ANSI is the right shift. I prefer HHKB layout for this reason. I use LShift with my ring finger, probably need a 1.5u Shift at the least. Though I have some 1.25 shifts lying around, I should try those out and see how I like it.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: daerid on Thu, 24 September 2015, 14:03:04
Disagree entirely. Anything other than ANSI makes my hands hurt (And I've given a ton of alternate layouts a decent shot).

It's all personal preference.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 24 September 2015, 14:44:19
Both are terrible.

A combination of all ISO, ANSI and JIS would be tolerable.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/1Sz0XrX.png)


That's a layout I could get behind.
I'm more an more thinking that any key above 2unit is a waste of space.


Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,

all heil ISO.


Just like a Frenchy to make a competition out of a few very small differences :D

I think the large left shift is particularly useful when shift-queuing and having 6+ hotkeys in an RTS

The backspace is only a big deal to those who frequently make mistakes :D speaking of mistakes...that iso enter....

I like how the justification of this stupid long left shift is always related to videogames.

And I'm not saying ISO is perfect, they made several mistakes :
ISO enter is stupidly large, Right shift should be split regardless. I actually prefer the way the brazilian does it: it's 1.75u + 1u but with the 1.75u on the far right.

But taking both standard layout ISO> ANSI.
Improved ANSI ala HHKB is superior to ISO.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: dutC4 on Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:01:56
 :blank:
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:03:49
ANSI may be bad but at least its not near as bad as ISO  :p

10/10 arguments
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: dutC4 on Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:04:40
 :blank:
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: natas206 on Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:05:44
It can be a real pain backspacing with your pinky.

(http://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/kb_thumbkey-blk540x390.jpg)
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:16:11
ISOs Caps Lock and Tab are both bigger than the left Shift and the Enter key is terrible. 

ANSI masterrace!
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:23:18
Disagree entirely. Anything other than ANSI makes my hands hurt (And I've given a ton of alternate layouts a decent shot).

It's all personal preference.

Agree! I use a combination. ANSI is bad?; well, I do not think so, it is not good either, it is just what we have.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: davkol on Fri, 25 September 2015, 07:32:04
The OP makes no sense anyway.

Smaller distance between the left pinkie and the respective Shift key is irrelevant, because pinkie still has to be used? WTF? Then proceed to complain about something (sorry, I fail to parse that random cloud of words in the OP) with Backspace? The same argument about pinkie could be used in that area too:  shape and position of Enter/Return, backslash, right Shift and Backspace don't matter, because pinkie still has to be used. The rest of the post relies on the importance maintaining a relatively rare (and apparently quite obsolete in mass-produced keyboards) dual-color scheme… like if that mattered.

Meanwhile, there are actual technical issues, such as stabilization of the obscure shape of JIS/ISO Enter/Return keys.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:18:06
The OP makes no sense anyway.

Smaller distance between the left pinkie and the respective Shift key is irrelevant, because pinkie still has to be used? WTF? Then proceed to complain about something (sorry, I fail to parse that random cloud of words in the OP) with Backspace? The same argument about pinkie could be used in that area too:  shape and position of Enter/Return, backslash, right Shift and Backspace don't matter, because pinkie still has to be used. The rest of the post relies on the importance maintaining a relatively rare (and apparently quite obsolete in mass-produced keyboards) dual-color scheme… like if that mattered.

Meanwhile, there are actual technical issues, such as stabilization of the obscure shape of JIS/ISO Enter/Return keys.

What do you mean by obscure shape?; or, is there some sort of design code that requires all the keys to be rectangular?
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: davkol on Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:41:23
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:44:01
I'm just gonna quote myself.

But taking both standard layout ISO> ANSI.
Improved ANSI ala HHKB is superior to ISO.

Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:48:14
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.

Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:50:56
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.

Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.

Same, never had a problem with my ISO enters.
I'm more annoyed by the wobbly 1.75u keys. Even if I love my split Rshift.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: davkol on Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:58:01
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.

Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.

Logic mofo do you speak it?
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Fri, 25 September 2015, 10:01:06
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.

Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.

Same, never had a problem with my ISO enters.
I'm more annoyed by the wobbly 1.75u keys. Even if I love my split Rshift.

That happened to me also, I even decided to keep the long 2.75u right shift, instead. Also the key was hard to type on.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ajx on Fri, 25 September 2015, 19:40:15
I am french and i use ansi over iso because it even makes more sense to type french on ANSI lol  ;D
On ANSI, all your fingers dont have to move too far even for making accent,
Alpha/numbers are being accessible without using shift while you have to toggle shift on ISO
While Comma is accessible without using shift, Period does, these keys are commonly used
By the way, ANSI makes more sense in smaller format such as 60%/TKL which haven't a dedicated numpad
Shift + Alpha/numbers, cmon  :-[
I would love if in the future, french children learn from their earliest childhood, to type on qwerty ANSI
ISO (AZERTY) should be banned in France  ;D
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 25 September 2015, 19:43:30
I am french and i use ansi over iso because it even makes more sense to type french on ANSI lol  ;D
On ANSI, all your fingers dont have to move too far even for making accent,
Alpha/numbers are being accessible without using shift while you have to toggle shift on ISO
While Comma is accessible without using shift, Period does, these keys are commonly used
By the way, ANSI makes more sense in smaller format such as 60%/TKL which haven't a dedicated numpad
Shift + Alpha/numbers, cmon  :-[
I would love if next future, french children learn from their earliest childhood, to type on qwerty ANSI
ISO (AZERTY) should be banned in France  ;D


How do you deal with the missing key? the "< > " right next to Lshift?
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ajx on Fri, 25 September 2015, 20:02:41
Lshift + ''<>'' lol
Not a big deal


Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: dutC4 on Fri, 25 September 2015, 20:31:01
 :blank:
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 28 September 2015, 19:23:21
ISO (but with a full-size left shift key) is okay... but you need to remap the keys in software: move all the right-hand letters one key to the right, and cycle the symbols thus displaced into the middle column (or adjust to match your own preferences).

Otherwise, standard ISO is death. Return and left shift are placed in godawful locations, and the extra added keys are pretty much worthless.

But the better answer is: all these standard-ish keyboard layouts are ****ing terrible.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jd29 on Mon, 28 September 2015, 19:31:51
I just don't understand the Big Ass Enter key.

I only use left shift and never touch the right shift.

I love the HHKB layout more then any layout out atm. takes a couple days to stop hitting the | key instead of the backspace. but other then that HHKB layout for lyfe.

If only the realforce shared the same 60% layout =(((

Big ass enter lets me fling my hand towards the keyboard like an uncoordinated brute to get through dialogue boxes, and hit the key every time. Also, big ass is best ass.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jd29 on Mon, 28 September 2015, 19:32:05
-double post-
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 02 October 2015, 05:15:59
All standard layouts are crap to varying degrees (underused thumbs, overloaded pinkies, asymmetry of distances, etc), but we're used to them, so we use them.

I prefer that ANSI Enter is closer to my fingers than ISO, I prefer the more symmetric layout and the universal keycap set support. The last point alone is worth switching to ANSI.

ISO layouts have crap placement of important characters for coding, like (,),-,_,=,+,[,],{,},;,\, etc... they're all nicely accessible in ANSI without having to resort to weird AltGr combinations. I hate using Alt/AltGr for anything as it's positioned too far from both the thumbs and the pinkies to be used comfortably for any combinations. Short left Shift is stupid (have to stretch for all capitals and number key symbols can be a pain). It's because of this that I only use the right Shift.

Best layout = custom layout, but ANSI is definitely better than ISO in everything except number of keys.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 07:12:37
ANSO with US International is the best all around.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Data on Fri, 02 October 2015, 19:37:24
The only thing wrong with ANSI is the HUGE right Shift.

Other than that, perfect.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 19:39:03
The only thing wrong with ANSI is the HUGE right Shift.

Not really, it looks nice under an ISO enter in an ANSO layout.

 :p
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:02:52
The only thing wrong with ANSI is the HUGE right Shift.
Yep. The right shift is stupid. Not only is it crazy big, it’s also 1.5 keys away from the home position.

No key on the keyboard except maybe certain thumb keys should be larger than 1.5x1 units.

Here’s about the best you can with a layout while maintaining (a) standard row stagger and positions for the alphabetnumeric keys and (b) all the keys from a TKL board, and (c) a standard single-piece grid-like design:
(http://i.imgur.com/agK3Fmr.png)
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: nubbinator on Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:13:49
Sorry, but You couldn't pay me to use that layout jacobolus.  some of it is nice, but those shift keys are awful and any chained Ctrl+whatever command would be pretty clunky to do.  One of my more commonly used commands (and common for any IT professional) is Ctrl+Shift+Esc.  I do not see a comfortable way to hit that with that board.  I'd have to use my thumb on control and try and strike shift and esc with my pinky and ring fingers.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: PunksDead on Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:14:20
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: digi on Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:17:30
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king

..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:22:26
(http://i.imgur.com/agK3Fmr.png)


nubbinator wrote:
> but those shift keys are awful

Try it and see! It’s actually extremely nice. (In comparison to ISO/ANSI, which is admittedly a very low bar.)

> and any chained Ctrl+whatever command would be pretty clunky to do.

Also really nice! Much easier than control keys in the corners of the board, and about the same as a board with a control key to the left of the A key. This layout could also work pretty well with shift and control swapped. But using a thumb shift takes a bit more practice than using a 1u-next-to-pinky-home-position shift.

Another nice possibility is to make shifts index-finger keys, replacing e.g. G and H, but then you need a different letter layout, which again has a steeper learning curve.

The final reasonable possibility, as I alluded to upthread, is to use something similar to a standard ISO layout, but shift all the right-hand letter keys over one key to the right, and rotate some other keys into the middle column that opens up. This makes the right shift and ISO enter key no longer impossible to reach, and helps with reaching backslash and backspace. Such a layout still isn’t great, but somewhat better than standard ISO/ANSI.

> One of my more commonly used commands (and common for any IT professional) is Ctrl+Shift+Esc.  I do not see a comfortable way to hit that with that board.

Yep, you’d use the thumb + ring finger + pinky, or thumb + middle finger + ring finger, or either thumb + right pinky + left pinky if you prefer. All three ways are super duper easy to press, dramatically easier than control + shift + escape on a standard keyboard.

That’s a remarkably stupid shortcut though. I’d recommend just remapping to something more convenient.

Also, nubbs: I don’t plan to pay you, don’t worry, and you can keep using whatever crazy layout you want, no skin off my back.

Again, the primary criterion here was to avoid shaking things up too much, so most keys were left alone, and only the worst offenders were moved (backspace, both shifts, escape, control, backslash, f keys, arrows), with some other keys shifted around to accommodate those changes. This is clearly still not close to optimal.

For someone looking to have a more comfortable overall experience, I’d recommend something split, with a column stagger and a lot of extra thumb keys, along the lines of:
(http://i.imgur.com/UEVKKFi.png)
(This comparison has some duplicated blue outlines of the center columns, to better show how the hands line up on it in comparison to a standard board. You can see how much of the terrible reaching from an ANSI layout is avoided, but it has fewer keys overall so requires a custom layered layout.)
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: PunksDead on Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:22:51
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king

..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.

(http://i.imgur.com/l4ceZhU.jpg)

I have been converted... Or maybe the buttery smoothness of vintage clears are blocking my judgement.

In all seriousness i just like keyboards, layouts don't matter much to me. Swapping out a new keyboard every week keeps the mind fresh. When we talk feels though... You need topre to the keyboard gods
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: digi on Fri, 02 October 2015, 21:02:12
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king

..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/l4ceZhU.jpg)


I have been converted... Or maybe the buttery smoothness of vintage clears are blocking my judgement.

In all seriousness i just like keyboards, layouts don't matter much to me. Swapping out a new keyboard every week keeps the mind fresh. When we talk feels though... You need topre to the keyboard gods

I can't hate on the vintage clears, I'm assuming they're lighter than reg clears which is why I like ergo-clears so much...(that's if I feel like being a Cherry n00b for a bit ofc). Send me that Night Owl MKII, mkay? thx
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Fri, 02 October 2015, 21:15:57
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king

..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/l4ceZhU.jpg)


I have been converted... Or maybe the buttery smoothness of vintage clears are blocking my judgement.

In all seriousness i just like keyboards, layouts don't matter much to me. Swapping out a new keyboard every week keeps the mind fresh. When we talk feels though... You need topre to the keyboard gods

Install regular shifts on this baby and she will rock, that double \| key just look out of place in this otherwise super nice board.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 03 October 2015, 00:08:08
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/l4ceZhU.jpg)

I have been converted... [...]
Install regular shifts on this baby and she will rock, that double \| key just look out of place in this otherwise super nice board.

Just rearrange until it looks like:
(http://i.imgur.com/6A6DyV3.png)

And then you end up with something better than either ANSI or ISO. (Still not great, but not too bad for a rectangular brick shape.)
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jd29 on Sat, 03 October 2015, 00:08:59
ISO (but with a full-size left shift key) is okay... but you need to remap the keys in software: move all the right-hand letters one key to the right, and cycle the symbols thus displaced into the middle column (or adjust to match your own preferences).

I do that anyway. It puts your hands further apart and gives you easier access to the rightmost column of keys, and makes it much easier to use the right bottom row keys with your thumb if you have a 7u spacebar. The regular QWERTY layout feels very cramped to me now.

Just rearrange until it looks like:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/6A6DyV3.png)


Edit: Ha, what are the odds of that? That's exactly what I was talking about, except I didn't rearrange keys between rows.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Sat, 03 October 2015, 00:16:27
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/l4ceZhU.jpg)

I have been converted... [...]
Install regular shifts on this baby and she will rock, that double \| key just look out of place in this otherwise super nice board.

Just rearrange until it looks like:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/6A6DyV3.png)


And then you end up with something better than either ANSI or ISO. (Still not great, but not too bad for a rectangular brick shape.)

That is what I called ANSO; however, after I try the split right shift I returned back to the full size one, that by the way, it may take most of standard ANSI sets available.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 03 October 2015, 02:05:30
That is what I called ANSO;
Look closely: The key part is moving all the letters on the right hand one key to the right. Otherwise it’s worse than ANSI.
(The precise details of how to arrange the new middle column are down to personal preference.)

The same idea also works pretty well on Apple Japanese laptop keyboards (I sadly have a US layout), which have extra thumb keys to play with. Since the Japanese right shift is by default even further away than the ISO left shift, you can even move the right hand over by two columns, and have two extra middle columns of index finger keys. Even comes with the control key in the correct place. Physical layout like:
(http://i.imgur.com/kiUWgMv.jpg)

Logical layout like: http://pastie.org/10457620 (stick that into http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/)
(http://i.imgur.com/rdxU6sn.png)
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Sat, 03 October 2015, 22:08:04
That is what I called ANSO;
Look closely: The key part is moving all the letters on the right hand one key to the right. Otherwise it’s worse than ANSI.
(The precise details of how to arrange the new middle column are down to personal preference.)

The same idea also works pretty well on Apple Japanese laptop keyboards (I sadly have a US layout), which have extra thumb keys to play with. Since the Japanese right shift is by default even further away than the ISO left shift, you can even move the right hand over by two columns, and have two extra middle columns of index finger keys. Even comes with the control key in the correct place. Physical layout like:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/kiUWgMv.jpg)


Logical layout like: http://pastie.org/10457620 (http://pastie.org/10457620) (stick that into http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/ (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/))
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/rdxU6sn.png)


Well, my keyboard works very well for me, actually. I understand your idea, but I think it should be tested to probe it may improve over the standard alpha arrangement. I think, you may have a learning curve to fight your muscle memory, before to get accustomed to it.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 03 October 2015, 23:03:33
Well, my keyboard works very well for me, actually. I understand your idea, but I think it should be tested to probe it may improve over the standard alpha arrangement. I think, you may have a learning curve to fight your muscle memory, before to get accustomed to it.
I’ve tested a bit, though not too extensively. (On an external Apple Japanese layout keyboard which I picked up used for cheap; my Apple laptop as I said unfortunately has an ANSI keyboard.) Works pretty well.

The main purpose (w/r/t the Apple Japanese layout) would be to get a somewhat increased hand separation and more reachable keys out of a built-in laptop keyboard, where there’s no easy way to radically change the hardware.

If you can pick your own hardware, then it’s better to just build a radically non-standard layout from scratch.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: davkol on Sun, 04 October 2015, 05:05:36
Also, see DreymaR's Wide mod over at the Colemak forum.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: asgeirtj on Sun, 04 October 2015, 06:39:59
Well I grew up with ISO and used to think that ISO is the master race.

When trying ANSI I thought these things were superior:
the enter key, there's no reason to have it so big as in ISO and with the ANSI enter key it's closer to the home row so it's easier to press.  I've also come to think that's more pretty, potentially because I think efficiency is beautiful, but more likely because the enter is not as much out of place and awkward looking.

the left shift key: it's bigger but that's not a good thing for me functionally, I'm used to pressing the little shift so I put my pinky on the outermost portion of the key anyway (doesn't everyone do that? makes sense according to orientation of the hand when typing on the board, when I have 1,75 right ala 75% I think it's horrible because I always need to reorient my pinky since it automatically goes to the outermost part of key).  I miss the "great than less than" key next to the left shift but one can bind those to new keys (I need to bind them since I have Icelandic keyboard layout which relies on that key for greater/less symbols).  However the bigger shift is more aesthetically pleasing, small mods are ugly.

So now I think ANSI is better than ISO. 
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Sun, 04 October 2015, 08:35:10
Well I grew up with ISO and used to think that ISO is the master race.

When trying ANSI I thought these things were superior:
the enter key, there's no reason to have it so big as in ISO and with the ANSI enter key it's closer to the home row so it's easier to press.  I've also come to think that's more pretty, potentially because I think efficiency is beautiful, but more likely because the enter is not as much out of place and awkward looking.

the left shift key: it's bigger but that's not a good thing for me functionally, I'm used to pressing the little shift so I put my pinky on the outermost portion of the key anyway (doesn't everyone do that? makes sense according to orientation of the hand when typing on the board, when I have 1,75 right ala 75% I think it's horrible because I always need to reorient my pinky since it automatically goes to the outermost part of key).  I miss the "great than less than" key next to the left shift but one can bind those to new keys (I need to bind them since I have Icelandic keyboard layout which relies on that key for greater/less symbols).  However the bigger shift is more aesthetically pleasing, small mods are ugly.

So now I think ANSI is better than ISO.

Thank you for the nice explanation. I also concur that small modifiers are not that nice looking. While I write in English and Spanish, the ANSI layout makes more sense to me, as you described your own experience. However I found the ISO enter size and shape a better differentiaor as the "carriage return" of our boards. If you remember in type writers it was a horizontal leveler, while the alphas were vertical ones, the ISO enter is similar in the sense that has a different orientation, being that a nice retro-styling characteristics that the ANSI layout has lost. Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me. 
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: asgeirtj on Sun, 04 October 2015, 13:08:28
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.

Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :)  (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Sun, 04 October 2015, 13:10:37
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.

Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :)  (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).

Good for you. However must set will have the \| legend, that is actually part of the alphas, and not a mod. Well, I know I am being picky.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: asgeirtj on Sun, 04 October 2015, 13:17:11
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.

Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :)  (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).

Good for you. However must set will have the \| legend, that is actually part of the alphas, and not a mod. Well, I know I am being picky.

I'm not sure if I understand this sentence :)
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Sun, 04 October 2015, 13:22:38
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.

Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :)  (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).

Good for you. However must set will have the \| legend, that is actually part of the alphas, and not a mod. Well, I know I am being picky.

I'm not sure if I understand this sentence :)

Neither do I, LOL. Sorry, I wrote it without care.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: superbia on Wed, 07 October 2015, 12:53:08
Comparing ansi to iso is pointless (they're both bad/old)...


#1 qwerty    and    #2 angled keys are drawn from 1700's from these
(https://i.imgur.com/29AGHzQ.jpg)

#1  it was invented to make people type slower
edit: It was laid out the way it is to prevent common digraph hammers being next to each other, since the hammers were gravity-returned and adjacent ones would jam if pressed too quickly after each other. It's the character pairs, not the speed that determined the layout.

#2   because the technical implementation (those metal rods under the keys)
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 07 October 2015, 14:49:20
Comparing ansi to iso is pointless (they're both bad/old)...


#1 qwerty    and    #2 angled keys are drawn from 1700's from these
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/29AGHzQ.jpg)


#1   it was invented to make people type slower (less errors, and because there wasnt a tool to delete a typo)
#2   because the technical implementation (those metal rods under the keys)

#1 is incorrect. It was laid out the way it is to prevent common digraph hammers being next to each other, since the hammers were gravity-returned and adjacent ones would jam if pressed too quickly after each other. It's the character pairs, not the speed that determined the layout.

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: davkol on Wed, 07 October 2015, 14:49:56
#1 qwerty    and    #2 angled keys are drawn from 1700's from these
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/29AGHzQ.jpg)


#1   it was invented to make people type slower (less errors, and because there wasnt a tool to delete a typo)
Eh, nope.

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 08 October 2015, 01:47:41
...

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.

Showing he created improved layouts to match the improved mechanisms. The mechanism improvements were adopted by Remington, but not that character layouts and we got stuck with QWERTY when they standardised it across brands due to the popularity of the Remington machines.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Thu, 08 October 2015, 07:19:33
Beyond personal preferences, there is a fact related with ISO and ANSI profiles that makes a huge difference, it is that the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. JTK, for example, does not offer support for ISO yet; most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO either. Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO. That alone is a good reason to go for ANSI, instead of ISO.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Fire Brand on Thu, 08 October 2015, 07:37:20
Beyond personal preferences, there is a fact related with ISO and ANSI profiles that makes a huge difference, it is that the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. JTK, for example, does not offer support for ISO yet; most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO either. Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO. That alone is a good reason to go for ANSI, instead of ISO.
the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. : Correct its a pain to find some of the stranger keys in ISO

most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO: Incorrect most typically do support ISO with a addon kit

Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO: Some old cherry sets don't include support for many layouts including ANSI so kinda a null point

Just trying to even it out, to be fair its mainly for what you grew up with, personally I don't care much for ISO or ANSI keyboards a keyboard and types but I have to say I don't like the long left shift and # key on ANSI I just find it silly the placement, again personally I would say go ANSI just to save yourself trouble getting keysets THAT alone is worth going ANSI over ISO
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Thu, 08 October 2015, 07:40:01
Most SP GBs, since the first introduced Skull Sq. set, did offer an ISO add-on that in almost all the cases did not reach MoQ.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Fire Brand on Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:20:16
Most SP GBs, since the first introduced Skull Sq. set, did offer an ISO add-on that in almost all the cases did not reach MoQ.
I wouldn't say they didn't reach most do come with a standard ISO support I use standard lightly covering only the 3 keys needed.

And wasn't skull sqaudron DSA? I didn't think you could even get ISO in that so again if I am correct null point if anything ANSI should be split from a main set and also be a addon kit so folks who use ISO don't need to buy keys they would use :p

Anyway I feel this topic will go nowhere since it's going to be a thing of what you grow up with rather than practicality of use, but I stand firm in ANSI  \ |is stupid :I they large key is not needed
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:26:40
Most SP GBs, since the first introduced Skull Sq. set, did offer an ISO add-on that in almost all the cases did not reach MoQ.
I wouldn't say they didn't reach most do come with a standard ISO support I use standard lightly covering only the 3 keys needed.

And wasn't skull sqaudron DSA? I didn't think you could even get ISO in that so again if I am correct null point if anything ANSI should be split from a main set and also be a addon kit so folks who use ISO don't need to buy keys they would use :p

Anyway I feel this topic will go nowhere since it's going to be a thing of what you grow up with rather than practicality of use, but I stand firm in ANSI  \ |is stupid :I they large key is not needed

Skull Sq., the first run, no the MD one, was DSA, and it was one of the few sets whose ISO add-on reached MoQ. They use a DCS mold to offer ISO support for DSA, as the profiles are similar. I have read SP does not have a DSA ISO mold.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: superbia on Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:27:37
Beyond personal preferences, there is a fact related with ISO and ANSI profiles that makes a huge difference, it is that the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. JTK, for example, does not offer support for ISO yet; most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO either. Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO. That alone is a good reason to go for ANSI, instead of ISO.
the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. : Correct its a pain to find some of the stranger keys in ISO

most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO: Incorrect most typically do support ISO with a addon kit

Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO: Some old cherry sets don't include support for many layouts including ANSI so kinda a null point

Just trying to even it out, to be fair its mainly for what you grew up with, personally I don't care much for ISO or ANSI keyboards a keyboard and types but I have to say I don't like the long left shift and # key on ANSI I just find it silly the placement, again personally I would say go ANSI just to save yourself trouble getting keysets THAT alone is worth going ANSI over ISO

Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Fire Brand on Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:43:10

Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
They kinda go hand in hand

It's always about the keycaps but maybe you just use raw cherry stems :p
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: ideus on Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:44:57

Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
They kinda go hand in hand

It's always about the keycaps but maybe you just use raw cherry stems?

My thought when I read the remark. Layout equals key caps compatibility and availability.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Fire Brand on Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:54:02

Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
They kinda go hand in hand

It's always about the keycaps but maybe you just use raw cherry stems?

My thought when I read the remark. Layout equals key caps compatibility and availability.
^+1
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: superbia on Thu, 08 October 2015, 09:04:11
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/agK3Fmr.png)



nubbinator wrote:
> but those shift keys are awful

Try it and see! It’s actually extremely nice. (In comparison to ISO/ANSI, which is admittedly a very low bar.)

> and any chained Ctrl+whatever command would be pretty clunky to do.

Also really nice! Much easier than control keys in the corners of the board, and about the same as a board with a control key to the left of the A key. This layout could also work pretty well with shift and control swapped. But using a thumb shift takes a bit more practice than using a 1u-next-to-pinky-home-position shift.

Another nice possibility is to make shifts index-finger keys, replacing e.g. G and H, but then you need a different letter layout, which again has a steeper learning curve.

The final reasonable possibility, as I alluded to upthread, is to use something similar to a standard ISO layout, but shift all the right-hand letter keys over one key to the right, and rotate some other keys into the middle column that opens up. This makes the right shift and ISO enter key no longer impossible to reach, and helps with reaching backslash and backspace. Such a layout still isn’t great, but somewhat better than standard ISO/ANSI.

> One of my more commonly used commands (and common for any IT professional) is Ctrl+Shift+Esc.  I do not see a comfortable way to hit that with that board.

Yep, you’d use the thumb + ring finger + pinky, or thumb + middle finger + ring finger, or either thumb + right pinky + left pinky if you prefer. All three ways are super duper easy to press, dramatically easier than control + shift + escape on a standard keyboard.

That’s a remarkably stupid shortcut though. I’d recommend just remapping to something more convenient.

Also, nubbs: I don’t plan to pay you, don’t worry, and you can keep using whatever crazy layout you want, no skin off my back.

Again, the primary criterion here was to avoid shaking things up too much, so most keys were left alone, and only the worst offenders were moved (backspace, both shifts, escape, control, backslash, f keys, arrows), with some other keys shifted around to accommodate those changes. This is clearly still not close to optimal.

For someone looking to have a more comfortable overall experience, I’d recommend something split, with a column stagger and a lot of extra thumb keys, along the lines of:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/UEVKKFi.png)

(This comparison has some duplicated blue outlines of the center columns, to better show how the hands line up on it in comparison to a standard board. You can see how much of the terrible reaching from an ANSI layout is avoided, but it has fewer keys overall so requires a custom layered layout.)

ISO gives you more options on key-arrangement (assuming you have a programmable keyboard)
(https://colemakmods.github.io/mod-dh/gfx/mod_dh_keyb_iso_wide.png)

But i agree with you guys, you will pay much more money for the iso keycaps..
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: davkol on Thu, 08 October 2015, 11:20:09
...

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.

Showing he created improved layouts to match the improved mechanisms. The mechanism improvements were adopted by Remington, but not that character layouts and we got stuck with QWERTY when they standardised it across brands due to the popularity of the Remington machines.
The layout in US 568630 was patented in 1896, i.e., six years after Sholes' death, although the application had been filed in 1889 and parts of the layout were noticeable in US 558428 (application filed in 1881).
Densmore opposed changing layouts much earlier IIRC.
Remington went essentially bankrupt in 1886. The competition (e.g., Caligraph) was doing pretty well. QWERTY didn't really become a de facto standard, until the typewriter trust was formed and eventually adopted QWERTY as a whole; Underwood entered the market around that point too.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 09 October 2015, 00:51:00
...

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.

Showing he created improved layouts to match the improved mechanisms. The mechanism improvements were adopted by Remington, but not that character layouts and we got stuck with QWERTY when they standardised it across brands due to the popularity of the Remington machines.
The layout in US 568630 was patented in 1896, i.e., six years after Sholes' death, although the application had been filed in 1889 and parts of the layout were noticeable in US 558428 (application filed in 1881).
Densmore opposed changing layouts much earlier IIRC.
Remington went essentially bankrupt in 1886. The competition (e.g., Caligraph) was doing pretty well. QWERTY didn't really become a de facto standard, until the typewriter trust was formed and eventually adopted QWERTY as a whole; Underwood entered the market around that point too.

What, you mean dvzine.org got that wrong? I'm scandalised... http://www.dvzine.org/zine/04-05.html

I apologise for spreading misinformation.

Well, the point is, he designed better layouts after the release of the No.1 and No.2 which suited the newer mechanisms which started to be used. From what I can tell, it looks like Remington actually continued to use gravity-returned hammers long after other companies started using spring return, so they'd have had to stick with the QWERTY layout. And they did sell well, so when the trust was formed they chose the popular layout.

So, though Sholes did come up with the layout (which was modified a bit before release by Remington), he's not to blame for it becoming the defacto standard and in fact he designed better layouts as his machine designs changed.

Still, the fact remains that we're using a layout designed for obscure mechanical reasons on boards that use discrete switches. The layout SHOULD have been redesigned with the first electrical / electronic keyboards for computers to suit input to these machines, but it's likely that for data entry purposes they used the same, familiar layout so typists wouldn't have to learn a new layout just to enter data to the terminals.
Title: Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
Post by: superbia on Fri, 09 October 2015, 02:18:13
Still, the fact remains that we're using a layout designed for obscure mechanical reasons on boards that use discrete switches. The layout SHOULD have been redesigned with the first electrical / electronic keyboards for computers to suit input to these machines, but it's likely that for data entry purposes they used the same, familiar layout so typists wouldn't have to learn a new layout just to enter data to the terminals.

That is exactly what i wanted to say.. Nicely put together  ;D