Author Topic: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?  (Read 9296 times)

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Offline Bol0Aa

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Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« on: Tue, 03 November 2015, 21:33:57 »
There are mass produced keyboards that feature a variant of the standard ISO, ANSI, and JIS layout, like hybrids (ISO enter with ANSI shift and vice-versa), big enter, keyboards without number pad, with multimedia buttons, and so on, so why are non-staggered (and otherwise typical) keyboards not mass-produced too?. Are they more difficult or expensive to produce (I guess that it must be the same). By mass-produced I mean something that is found in most computer hardware stores.

All non-staggered keyboards I know of are around 10 times as expensive than a common simple keyboard (which nonetheless is good for its job) and they are sold like specialty products. Examples are the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard series and Maltron 2 hand "3D". I know that these "high-end keyboards" differ from common keyboards in that they feature other "special" differences like a very different physical layout and high-end key switches.

I am not asking why these keyboards are more expensive; I am asking why there aren't inexpensive keyboards that are typical with the exception of having non-staggered columns.

Offline user 18

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 03 November 2015, 22:21:08 »
It's possible to make a PCB that will support ANSI, ISO, JIS and hybrid layouts from the same design, due to these layouts all using the same basic stagger. This allows economies of scale that would not be possible with non-staggered layouts, as the market is small and it would require a completely new design, rather than a small modification of an existing design.

For example, my QFR PCB could have switches soldered into ANSI, ISO or JIS layout, although the limit is constrained by the plate (and possibly the controller? Not sure how those work).

For rubber dome boards, it's possible that the issue is at least partially that there is no standard to design to, coupled with a niche market and the fact that the alphas are completely different from any of the other standards (ANSI, ISO, JIS), which would further discourage a user from picking up such a board. I'm not familiar with the manufacturing process for cheaper boards, so I can't comment on that aspect.

In short, I would assume that it's due to a combination of factors, including the need to develop new layouts, and lack of demand or interest from the average user.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 04 November 2015, 04:29:03 »
Because basically no-one would buy them, obviously.

The Sholes/Remington keyboard design has been pushed down everyone's throat for about a century, ever since it became obsolete. It's a prime example of an utter market failure.

Why did the layout become a standard in the first place? An unfortunate course of events. The design was adopted by industry behemoths without any consideration of human factors and despite the fact, that Remington had declared bankruptcy. At the other end of the market, businesses—managed by subscribers to the eventually criminal Taylorist methods—welcomed such standardization. And then keyboards became a commodity.

Who would benefit from a better layout? Any new user. In distinct ways though. A split layout, that reflects the shape of human hand, is suitable for touch-typists, but not hunt'n'peck users. New users essentially don't exist anymore though—nearly everyone is exposed to the industry standard first, and then the majority generally considers any major changes intimidating, due to the human nature. Moreover, the touch-typing skill is scarce at best.

Offline vvp

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 04 November 2015, 05:40:26 »
I agree with davkol. Hardly anybody would buy a keyboard which does not look like a mainstream piece. Almost everybody would be afraid that they would forget how to use the standard keyboards if they would switch to something else (like a column staggered keyboard, or split, or contoured). I myself was afraid of this when buying mi first Kinesis. I considered it as a risk. Of course, I learned it is not a problem.

So one needs to have health problems or be kind of strange to buy a more expensive keyboard which comes with a risk of incompatibility.

Offline Bol0Aa

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 04 November 2015, 10:12:09 »
Thanks for all the replies.

There is an idea that appears highly questionable to me:

It's possible to make a PCB that will support ANSI, ISO, JIS and hybrid layouts from the same design, due to these layouts all using the same basic stagger. This allows economies of scale that would not be possible with non-staggered layouts, as the market is small and it would require a completely new design, rather than a small modification of an existing design.

It can be done, but it is actually done? Could you show some evidence for this?. Where do you get the idea that this is the case?. It is not harder to move 5 contact pads than to move 100 to make a new PCB design; this is done only once in CAD software and replicated thousands of times with modern automatic manufacturing methods.

I have good reasons to think the contrary: PCBs are highly non-standardized. We all know of trivial variations among mainstream keyboards that would preclude or make harder to use standardized PCB designs, like embedded arrow keys in the main key block, keyboards with split backspace, multimedia buttons, function keys in non-standard positions, and so on. All times I have dissembled a keyboard, I have seen a perfectly fitting PCB without extra unused contact pads or traces routed to unused locations, thus almost surely non-standard but instead tailored (possibly to a small family of keyboard models, not necessarily a single one).

PCBs can't be the reason of why there aren't non-staggered keyboards: If manufacturers can make non-standard PCBs for ergonomic keyboards (of the type that are found in common computer hardware stores, rather than specialty keyboards) which feature a curved design or the main key block split into 2, then they can also make PCBs for non-staggered keyboards.

Who would benefit from a better layout? Any new user. In distinct ways though. A split layout, that reflects the shape of human hand, is suitable for touch-typists, but not hunt'n'peck users. New users essentially don't exist anymore though—nearly everyone is exposed to the industry standard first, and then the majority generally considers any major changes intimidating, due to the human nature. Moreover, the touch-typing skill is scarce at best.

You are right in that market forces favor persistence instead of change with regards to keyboards, but only to a degree. In reality, we have ergonomic (split main key block) keyboards in most stores, and keyboards with embedded arrow keys into the main key block; de-staggering isn't very different from this.
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 November 2015, 11:02:57 by Bol0Aa »

Offline davkol

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 04 November 2015, 11:46:29 »
The only "ergonomic" keyboard in common stores is MS Natural (or Sculpt nowadays). It doesn't even have a PCB, and MS Natural membranes were the same for ANSI and ISO IIRC.

Offline user 18

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 04 November 2015, 12:11:29 »
Thanks for all the replies.

There is an idea that appears highly questionable to me:

It's possible to make a PCB that will support ANSI, ISO, JIS and hybrid layouts from the same design, due to these layouts all using the same basic stagger. This allows economies of scale that would not be possible with non-staggered layouts, as the market is small and it would require a completely new design, rather than a small modification of an existing design.

It can be done, but it is actually done? Could you show some evidence for this?. Where do you get the idea that this is the case?. It is not harder to move 5 contact pads than to move 100 to make a new PCB design; this is done only once in CAD software and replicated thousands of times with modern automatic manufacturing methods.

I have good reasons to think the contrary: PCBs are highly non-standardized. We all know of trivial variations among mainstream keyboards that would preclude or make harder to use standardized PCB designs, like embedded arrow keys in the main key block, keyboards with split backspace, multimedia buttons, function keys in non-standard positions, and so on. All times I have dissembled a keyboard, I have seen a perfectly fitting PCB without extra unused contact pads or traces routed to unused locations, thus almost surely non-standard but instead tailored (possibly to a small family of keyboard models, not necessarily a single one).

PCBs can't be the reason of why there aren't non-staggered keyboards: If manufacturers can make non-standard PCBs for ergonomic keyboards (of the type that are found in common computer hardware stores, rather than specialty keyboards) which feature a curved design or the main key block split into 2, then they can also make PCBs for non-staggered keyboards.

I gave such an example in my previous post -- the QFR PCB. Here's a picture (not mine, but from elsewhere on GH):



If you take a look, you can see provision for split backspace, ISO enter, split right shift, and JIS bottom row. It isn't visible in that picture, but there is also provision for split right shift on those PCBs; the same design could be used to do ANSI, ISO, or JIS boards. From a manufacturing standpoint, this means that their PCB fab can just crank out the same design all day long, and it can be used to build multiple boards. This is possible because there are very few points of overlap between the ANSI, ISO, JIS mount points.

To be able to create a PCB that could be used for non-staggered boards, a different design would need to be used. It would potentially impact the structural integrity of the PCB and almost certainly overly complicate the layout to try and get a single PCB design that could do staggered and non-staggered layouts.

Consider that all the time a factory spends retooling to make a non-staggered PCB (and retooling back to original production, if necessary), as well as the time they actually spend manufacturing said PCBs, is time that they are not making PCBs that satisfy the primary consumer demand. For a large production run, the retooling time is a smaller fraction of the overall time used, but for a small production run, the retooling time can be a significant fraction. For the factory to maintain its profit, smaller runs of PCBs will be more expensive (same economies of scale that we see with a lot of GBs).

This same logic illustrates why board manufacturers might like to standardize PCB layouts where possible -- it is cheaper to order one run of 2n boards that can be used to make both ANSI and ISO, for instance, than it is to order two runs of n boards each, one for ANSI and one for ISO. However, the increased complexity of design required to make a multi-purpose PCB might increase the cost of the design by enough that a company would not find it worthwhile for the reduction in production cost.


At this point though, I feel like we are swapping anecdotes and not really forming an argument. Looking more critically at your post, I think your experience of "common computer hardware store" keyboards is limited to cheap rubber domes and the like, (or at least those boards are the ones you are attempting to ask about,) whereas I have been able to try razer, corsair, CM, logitech mech boards in several local stores, and am mainly working with the latter group of consumer mechanical boards. As I stated in my original post, I have no knowledge of the manufacturing process for rubber dome boards, and could easily be entirely off base in that field. However, I would expect that lack of demand for non-staggered boards plays a significant role in companies evaluating the cost/benefit of offering such a board.

I feel like I should state that I'm just hypothesizing based on an incomplete set of observations, hence the use of a lot of "possibly" or "I would expect". It may not be right, but it seems at least logical and internally consistent to me.
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 04 November 2015, 13:58:03 »
"common computer hardware store keyboards" do not have PCBs for the keys. They have rubber domes over membranes.
There is a printed top sheet and a printed bottom sheet, and in-between them is a spacer sheet with no circuits - only holes.
These contact pads, and holes, are quite large. The holes are often 1/2 key wide - which is too large for supporting both matrix and staggered layouts.

The rubber domes are often cast as one single piece of rubber, and the top of the keyboard with all the barrels is cast as one piece of plastic. These would not be interchangeable either.
This is done for scale of manufacturing. Mechanical keyboards have switched mounted into frames as a separate process which is one contributing factor to why mechanical keyboards are more expensive than mass-produced rubber dome keyboards.

I also don't think that a flat keyboard with matrix layout is any more ergonomic than regular staggering.
Column offsets are needed.
And then it would work only for people who touch-type according to the method, with the right finger for the right key, and most people don't type that way.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 05 November 2015, 03:12:29 »
....

I also don't think that a flat keyboard with matrix layout is any more ergonomic than regular staggering.
Column offsets are needed.
And then it would work only for people who touch-type according to the method, with the right finger for the right key, and most people don't type that way.

^^^This...

No mass production because no mass market.

It'd take a truly great product (or universally accepted research that the existing layout leads to severe health problems) to persuade most people to change layouts. As it is the health problems are most often due more to technique than the layout and most people couldn't be bothered to change layouts for the relatively small benefit. This is coming from someone who designed and built their own vertically staggered ergonomic board.
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Offline Bol0Aa

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 06 November 2015, 13:53:31 »
Thanks for the answers including thanks to user 18 for linking to a photo to meet my request of evidence!.

I also don't think that a flat keyboard with matrix layout is any more ergonomic than regular staggering.
I disagree with that . Bear in mind that the staggering goes against the angle that the left wrist makes.

Column offsets are needed.
And then it would work only for people who touch-type according to the method, with the right finger for the right key, and most people don't type that way.
I do not think that they are needed. They were required in early completely mechanical typewriters, and due to the network effect we still have them (same as the QWERTY layout), but it is not an human requirement. There are specialty keyboards that do not have staggering and there doesn't seem to be a problem because of that. Anatomically, it doesn't make sense to have both sides of the keyboard staggered to the same side; if staggering to one side was optimal for one hand, the optimal staggering arrangement for the other hand would be the mirror image, due to the symmetry of the hands.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 06 November 2015, 18:07:00 »
Bear in mind that the staggering goes against the angle that the left wrist makes.
Well, I think that most people place their keyboards so that the alphanumeric cluster is a bit to the left. It gets there because of the numeric cluster and to be able to get space for the mouse to the right.

The left hand goes to the left, but the right hand goes in the middle or even to the left of the middle in front of the computer screen(s). That means that each wrist will be pretty much straight.

If you instead got a matrix layout and placed it in the middle then both wrists would have to be bent outwards.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 07 November 2015, 07:45:04 »
Thanks for the answers including thanks to user 18 for linking to a photo to meet my request of evidence!.

I also don't think that a flat keyboard with matrix layout is any more ergonomic than regular staggering.
I disagree with that . Bear in mind that the staggering goes against the angle that the left wrist makes.

Column offsets are needed.
And then it would work only for people who touch-type according to the method, with the right finger for the right key, and most people don't type that way.
I do not think that they are needed. They were required in early completely mechanical typewriters, and due to the network effect we still have them (same as the QWERTY layout), but it is not an human requirement. There are specialty keyboards that do not have staggering and there doesn't seem to be a problem because of that. Anatomically, it doesn't make sense to have both sides of the keyboard staggered to the same side; if staggering to one side was optimal for one hand, the optimal staggering arrangement for the other hand would be the mirror image, due to the symmetry of the hands.

COLUMN stagger, not ROW stagger. Vertically staggered columns on separate or well angled board halves is most ergonomic, particularly if you include thumb clusters and tenting.
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Offline SamirD

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 08 November 2015, 00:53:49 »
I ran across this the other day and forgot the thread to post here.  This is a board available from Cherry without any stagger and is fully programmable for under $100:
http://www.provantage.com/cherry-g86-63400euadaa~7CHER0NM.htm

Offline davkol

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 08 November 2015, 03:22:54 »
I ran across this the other day and forgot the thread to post here.  This is a board available from Cherry without any stagger and is fully programmable for under $100:
http://www.provantage.com/cherry-g86-63400euadaa~7CHER0NM.htm
Point of sale keyboards are relatively common. You can find them at most cash registers (unless it's been switched to a touchscreen).

Offline SamirD

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 08 November 2015, 11:57:38 »
I ran across this the other day and forgot the thread to post here.  This is a board available from Cherry without any stagger and is fully programmable for under $100:
http://www.provantage.com/cherry-g86-63400euadaa~7CHER0NM.htm
Point of sale keyboards are relatively common. You can find them at most cash registers (unless it's been switched to a touchscreen).
Exactly--column (not staggered) format and mass produced, no?  Isn't this what the OP was saying wasn't mass produced?


Offline davkol

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 08 November 2015, 12:11:35 »
By mass-produced I mean something that is found in most computer hardware stores.

Offline SamirD

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Re: Why aren't there mass-produced non-staggered keyboards?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 08 November 2015, 16:20:51 »
By mass-produced I mean something that is found in most computer hardware stores.
Gotcha.  But you can't even find decent mechs in most of those either, so that doesn't surprise me on a niche item like that.