Theory: I think that this is related to GMK lowering their MOQ to 250 in late 2013. In order to justify new costs concerning smaller batches, they started calibrating factory machines to use less material or perhaps a different/cheaper/less dense ABS.
What do you think?
Theory: I think that this is related to GMK lowering their MOQ to 250 in late 2013. In order to justify new costs concerning smaller batches, they started calibrating factory machines to use less material or perhaps a different/cheaper/less dense ABS.
What do you think?
These new photos you provided are pretty conclusive, at leat to me, that the most recent keycaps they make do not feature dense plastic like before. It almost looks like they ran out of plastic in the machine and just went with leftovers. Look how sturdy those Olivetti keys are in comparison to Adler, they just can't be the same thick plastic.
EDIT: Radio, check this picture below and you can clearly see that the legends are indeed much worse in the Adler keyset when compared to Olivetti.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rEDmNHy.jpg)pic from /u/JustDownloadMoreRAM - original thread here (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3g2pzt/isis_this_the_legendary_gmk_quality/[/url)
Interesting theory, however I can play devil's advocate and say look at GMK Charred Orange. The orange is translucent, and it's even apparent in the doubleshot molding.
Do you think it could also be using a more translucent white instead of a denser, more opaque white?
All I have are GMK sets, and while most of them are excellent quality, from what I have seen from the recent sets their quality does seem like it is going down... The hype just isn't there anymore it seems.. I mean I could see them getting a little lazy because of all the action they have seen from the mechanical keyboard community this year. They have been probably contacted every week by a new person requesting mock ups for future sets... Maybe it's going to their head?
Edit: Actually Lastpilot, from your photo comparisons, you can actually see that the Olivetti double shot for the legends is so much cleaner than the ones on the TA set.. It is not a small difference...
These new photos you provided are pretty conclusive, at least to me, that the most recent keycaps they make do not feature dense plastic like before. It almost looks like they ran out of plastic in the machine and just went with leftovers. Look how sturdy those Olivetti keys are in comparison to Adler, they just can't be the same thick plastic.
EDIT: Radio, check this picture below and you can clearly see that the legends are indeed much worse in the Adler keyset when compared to Olivetti.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rEDmNHy.jpg)pic from /u/JustDownloadMoreRAM - original thread here (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3g2pzt/isis_this_the_legendary_gmk_quality/[/url)
All I have are GMK sets, and while most of them are excellent quality, from what I have seen from the recent sets their quality does seem like it is going down... The hype just isn't there anymore it seems.. I mean I could see them getting a little lazy because of all the action they have seen from the mechanical keyboard community this year. They have been probably contacted every week by a new person requesting mock ups for future sets... Maybe it's going to their head?I noticed that, the legends on my TA set are all fuzzy. The lines on my dyesub sets are much sharper.
Edit: Actually Lastpilot, from your photo comparisons, you can actually see that the Olivetti double shot for the legends is so much cleaner than the ones on the TA set.. It is not a small difference...
Alright, time for some Keyboard Science! :thumb:
Here we have:
1x Poker2 with bright white LEDs on the WASD cluster, Esc, and Spacebar.
1x WASD from OG Skidata
1x WASD from Charred Orange
With the naked eye, Charred Orange is very slightly more translucent and darker, but it is difficult to capture with my phone camera.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/4SZNVBb.jpg)
Lights offs, LEDs on, Charred Orange:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/C42sZxQ.jpg)
Now, with OG Skidata:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/JvYWPRK.jpg)
As we can observe, it appears that all doubleshot keycaps are at risk of bleeding light, but in the case of Charred Orange, it seems to be bleeding a lot more.
I have also ran this test with the following: (Due to the difficulty of photography, I did not take photos of these).
EK Red WASD
Ivan GMK Dolch WASD
Results were similar to the OG Skidata, where you will see a little light around the stem area, but nothing drastic like Charred Orange.
Conclusion: Originative's Charred Orange is a flawed set. Something must have gone wrong during the double shot process.
Here are some pics of the charred orange from Karura, that he posted in the GMK Skidata ICAlright, time for some Keyboard Science! :thumb:
Here we have:
1x Poker2 with bright white LEDs on the WASD cluster, Esc, and Spacebar.
1x WASD from OG Skidata
1x WASD from Charred Orange
With the naked eye, Charred Orange is very slightly more translucent and darker, but it is difficult to capture with my phone camera.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/4SZNVBb.jpg)
Lights offs, LEDs on, Charred Orange:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/C42sZxQ.jpg)
Now, with OG Skidata:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/JvYWPRK.jpg)
As we can observe, it appears that all doubleshot keycaps are at risk of bleeding light, but in the case of Charred Orange, it seems to be bleeding a lot more.
I have also ran this test with the following: (Due to the difficulty of photography, I did not take photos of these).
EK Red WASD
Ivan GMK Dolch WASD
Results were similar to the OG Skidata, where you will see a little light around the stem area, but nothing drastic like Charred Orange.
Conclusion: Originative's Charred Orange is a flawed set. Something must have gone wrong during the double shot process.
I don't believe my set from Ivan's dolch group buy had any issues with clarity and/or light leaking and these were ran in 2014.
Do you think it could also be using a more translucent white instead of a denser, more opaque white?
Do you think it could also be using a more translucent white instead of a denser, more opaque white?
This seems like the most likely scenario. It also explains why darker caps like dolch and the base alpha color of charred orange don't leak light, but lighter colors do.
I would be interested to see what GMK would say when this is pointed out to them.
Do you think it could also be using a more translucent white instead of a denser, more opaque white?
This seems like the most likely scenario. It also explains why darker caps like dolch and the base alpha color of charred orange don't leak light, but lighter colors do.
I would be interested to see what GMK would say when this is pointed out to them.
I'm not sure how ABS colors are made, but I'm guessing due to the "swirl" problem in TA, that they mix dyes to make a certain color? So they probably used a white to make the orange in the charred orange set? That would make a lot of sense.
That said, the most recent GMK Dolch also has some defects, along with 2015 Ollivetti as well. I'll grab some pictures once my macro arrives...in a few hours. :P#getting****done #detectivezeal #lensesareforkeycaps
Radio, check this picture below and you can clearly see that the legends are indeed much worse in the Adler keyset when compared to Olivetti.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rEDmNHy.jpg)pic from /u/JustDownloadMoreRAM - original thread here (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3g2pzt/isis_this_the_legendary_gmk_quality/[/url)
Radio, check this picture below and you can clearly see that the legends are indeed much worse in the Adler keyset when compared to Olivetti.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rEDmNHy.jpg)pic from /u/JustDownloadMoreRAM - original thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3g2pzt/isis_this_the_legendary_gmk_quality/here[/url)
The thread seems to be gone for some reason. But if I received a legend like that, I'd be upset to no end. All of these complaints about GMK recently make me a bit nervous about the IC's I've participated in. Never had a set, but I almost don't want to bother until I see more sets after TA that fix these issues.
Interesting, havent jumped on any of the sets but this is definitely something to look out for. Seen a lot of damaged caps show up on reddit, think there could be an quality issue :/
Screw light leaks, TA turned out bad in general.
Even without backlighting, bleedthrough of the inner plastic layer for the legends is unacceptable. Wavy legends are unacceptable. Dirt is unacceptable. This is the company everyone raves about? I've seen better looking SP sets and people like to complain about SP.
I'm certainly not ordering any more GMK sets, since from toss thread it looks like there are issues beyond just the sloppy job on TA. You get one chance with me. This was it. It's not even 'Oh, this headset stopped holding a charge after a month and disconnects constantly' like I had with the one Logitech product I bought. This was never usable from the moment it came off the assembly line.
It's like if everyone I know raves about a restaurant, and I go there and the food is expensive, cooked badly, and brought a waiter with bad service. I don't care how many good meals you've had there, I'm not eating there again.
GMK absolutely needs to get their act together from the looks of things, but I'm afraid even if they do it's too late for me with them.
Screw light leaks, TA turned out bad in general.
Even without backlighting, bleedthrough of the inner plastic layer for the legends is unacceptable. Wavy legends are unacceptable. Dirt is unacceptable. This is the company everyone raves about? I've seen better looking SP sets and people like to complain about SP.
I'm certainly not ordering any more GMK sets, since from toss thread it looks like there are issues beyond just the sloppy job on TA. You get one chance with me. This was it. It's not even 'Oh, this headset stopped holding a charge after a month and disconnects constantly' like I had with the one Logitech product I bought. This was never usable from the moment it came off the assembly line.
It's like if everyone I know raves about a restaurant, and I go there and the food is expensive, cooked badly, and brought a waiter with bad service. I don't care how many good meals you've had there, I'm not eating there again.
GMK absolutely needs to get their act together from the looks of things, but I'm afraid even if they do it's too late for me with them.
It's like you are extremely hungry, you have to eat, but you can't prepare food yourself, and the 4-5 restaurants that are available all have issues of their own, in this scenario GMK over-cooked the meal once, while SP can't get proportions right and over-cooks/under-cooks randomly, there is also very ****ty fast-food's like Vortex and stuff, there is WASD Keyboards that can prepare whatever you want, but their dishes are all very watery, and stuff ...
(I will buy some of your GMK TA Modifiers if you are selling them btw, just saying)
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/MaBxxUm.gif)
The way I see it, the sad truth is there is not a single keyset or manufacturer out there that is *"perfect"* - so you just have to decide on what you are willing to let go off
It's like you are extremely hungry, you have to eat, but you can't prepare food yourself, and the 4-5 restaurants that are available all have issues of their own, in this scenario GMK over-cooked the meal once, while SP can't get proportions right and over-cooks/under-cooks randomly, there is also very ****ty fast-food's like Vortex and stuff, there is WASD Keyboards that can prepare whatever you want, but their dishes are all very watery, and stuff ...
(I will buy some of your GMK TA Modifiers if you are selling them btw, just saying)
And I have a Vortex set that looks like absolute ****. The legends, while done alright, look like a hot mess and are a hodge podge of retarded. I have several SP sets, each of which looks good, but feels absolutely terrible to type on. I have a Tai Hao set that has some wonky legends, but doesn't feel bad for how much it cost. And I have several GMK sets that, even with some of the problems I've seen, still feel way better than Vortex, Tai Hao, and SP. In the end, I'll keep going back to my TA typewriter dyesubs, my OG Cherry, and my GMK over anything else out there since it feels better and I feel like the quality is better even with some of the issues I've seen first hand.
The main problems with the buy are the retarded A profile bottom row (sorry intelli, that was a ****ty decision that ****ed over the majority of users) and the piss poor shipping that resulted in scratches. The swirls in the caps are not noticeable in normal use, only when you look at them closely, the legend issues aren't noticeable unless you stare at them, the bleed through of the darker legend color isn't noticeable in normal use on most caps, and it seems like the dark spots aren't an issue for most people and are mostly on the sides of the caps.
I'm disappointed in this set and how it turned out, but you have some serious hyperbole going on like it's the end of the world and this is the ****tiest set ever made.
Back to the light bleed issue. It seems like it mainly affects caps with lighter color plastics, which really isn't unexpected.
Keycap quality issues aside, an el cheapo fix I have used before is to place a tiny square of aluminum foil tape on the top of the LED. Use real aluminium tape, not that dryer vent stuff. Only a super tiny square is needed per LED, you are just blocking the light emitting from the top. Works great and is easily reversible if not needed with a different set of keycaps.
+1
I've seen more people displeased with intelli's selections
With him intending to run more sets, on a selfish level, I feel like serious GMK allocations will be wasted, there are almost no extra non-standard keycaps
It kind of feels like he has a layout that he uses and he's only interested in getting keycaps for that layout
I see a lot of HHKB layout users, I use the 1.75 Control myself, need 1.25 blanks, they are all missing at the GMK TA set - anyway, these are off topic and personal opinions
------
On an on topic level, I think pouring a layer of light-tight paint into the keycap might be a good idea for those who want their keycaps to be light-tight, that's what I would do
[...]
I've seen more people displeased with intelli's selection
[...]
Why not just run your own GB? This is not meant to sound antagonistic, I am genuinely curious.
rip GMK. the JTK reign shall begin shortly
rip GMK. the JTK reign shall begin shortlyHelp me JTK, you're my only hope.
The light leaks is the dealbreaker for me. I can deal with a bit of scratches, swirls, even wavy/malformed legends. I cannot deal with lightleak at all, especially since the keyboard I was originally building for the TA set, is a LSv2 and is fully backlit. To me, lightleaks indicate not enough material used for the doubleshot, and given the price of this set/GMK's reputation, that's really disappointing. It's a direct reflection of their cost cutting measures to make more money, and I do not believe it's b/c of TA's custom colors. CMYK uses existing colors, and has light bleed issues as well.The new GMK sets are not thinner, they use the same amount of material. I've compered TA with several Vintage Cherry sets, no difference in weight. The most likely reason is the material itself, which is less opaque.
On a backlit keyboard, lightbleed looks like absolute ****, and due to this reason, this will be the last GMK set I buy. Unless they can demonstrate in future GB's that they are improving their QA, and restoring their key thickness, the current quality is simply not worth the price.
The light leaks is the dealbreaker for me. I can deal with a bit of scratches, swirls, even wavy/malformed legends. I cannot deal with lightleak at all, especially since the keyboard I was originally building for the TA set, is a LSv2 and is fully backlit. To me, lightleaks indicate not enough material used for the doubleshot, and given the price of this set/GMK's reputation, that's really disappointing. It's a direct reflection of their cost cutting measures to make more money, and I do not believe it's b/c of TA's custom colors. CMYK uses existing colors, and has light bleed issues as well.The new GMK sets are not thinner, they use the same amount of material. I've compered TA with several Vintage Cherry sets, no difference in weight. The most likely reason is the material itself, which is less opaque.
On a backlit keyboard, lightbleed looks like absolute ****, and due to this reason, this will be the last GMK set I buy. Unless they can demonstrate in future GB's that they are improving their QA, and restoring their key thickness, the current quality is simply not worth the price.
I'm honestly surprised how many folks even use backlighting...
I'm honestly surprised how many folks even use backlighting...
I'm still amazed that people expect caps to have no bleed at all, especially with lighter color plastics.
The new GMK sets are not thinner, they use the same amount of material. I've compered TA with several Vintage Cherry sets, no difference in weight. The most likely reason is the material itself, which is less opaque.
To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.
To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.
To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.
Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself.
Yup and we're not privy to GMK's internatal workings. I'm not sure how it works in the plastics manufacturing industry. Hoff would know more than I do.
I deal mainly in metals at work. Even though we order Aluminum Blah, each batch of Blah may be different slightly. This can lead to things like cracking that wasn't expected. So Blah may not always equal Blah.
It's very possible that there are multiple suppliers (we do that to ensure production doesn't stop) or different batches of plastic which have slightly different properties.
I'm honestly surprised how many folks even use backlighting...
I'm still amazed that people expect caps to have no bleed at all, especially with lighter color plastics.
I'm honestly surprised how many folks even use backlighting...
I'm still amazed that people expect caps to have no bleed at all, especially with lighter color plastics.
I'm amazed no one painted underneath the keycaps yet to stop the bleed, considering various issues with keycaps, the solution to this one seems straightforward
And there is also the hidden assumption that opaque abs = good, translucent abs = bad... Which may not be really the case..I don't think anyone is saying translucent abs itself bad. I just think I am among backlight users who haven't had to worry about our GMK keycaps letting light through until recently. And for some users who use backlighting regularly, its worth investigation.
I will ask them for sure. However, Christoph is away for a few weeks. I'll ask him when he gets back.
Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself. I'm just amazed how people jump to the conclusion that would have cost GMK money.
[...]Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself. I'm just amazed how people jump to the conclusion that would have cost GMK money.
GMK is a for-profit company. I don't think its unreasonable to speculate that recent changes in products may be the result of a business strategy. Most intentional changes in a for-profit company are for just that; profit.
[...]
To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.
Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself.
Yup and we're not privy to GMK's internatal workings. I'm not sure how it works in the plastics manufacturing industry. Hoff would know more than I do.
I deal mainly in metals at work. Even though we order Aluminum Blah, each batch of Blah may be different slightly. This can lead to things like cracking that wasn't expected. So Blah may not always equal Blah.
It's very possible that there are multiple suppliers (we do that to ensure production doesn't stop) or different batches of plastic which have slightly different properties.
I haven't read much of the thread so I'm just replying to your posts jbondeson.
To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.
Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself.
Yup and we're not privy to GMK's internatal workings. I'm not sure how it works in the plastics manufacturing industry. Hoff would know more than I do.
I deal mainly in metals at work. Even though we order Aluminum Blah, each batch of Blah may be different slightly. This can lead to things like cracking that wasn't expected. So Blah may not always equal Blah.
It's very possible that there are multiple suppliers (we do that to ensure production doesn't stop) or different batches of plastic which have slightly different properties.
I haven't read much of the thread so I'm just replying to your posts jbondeson.
I think that most people would be shocked to understand how much impact a slight variation in the formulation of a resin can have. I just finished up a huge project at work to change resin suppliers for one grade of resin, and it's a huge pain.
Sure, they might all be "ABS", but the name of a polymer only identifies which monomers compose it (with the exception of LDPE, LLDPE, HDPE, which are all polyethylene - but that's the most commonly used polymer in the world, so that makes sense ;) ). "ABS" does not tell you anything about the chain lengths or any additives that might be present in the polymer. But then you'd also have to consider the method of polymerization. Some copolymers (multiple monomers in the same structure) are formed by alternating between the monomers (think of a chain of ABABABAB), or some variant of that (ABBABBABB, etc), while some are more complex networks of monomers (small globules of A, with "strings" of B connecting them), etc. These different types of structures would all have different implications of how the physical properties would change based on other material changes, and it's really not as simple as "This is ABS, that is ABS, therefore they are the same".
And sometimes these changes are not even cost-cutting measures. Sometimes suppliers discontinue products, or consolidate multiple products into one, forcing the manufacturer to adjust to new materials.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of resin melt rheology and how all that interacts with each other.
MoreI think that most people would be shocked to understand how much impact a slight variation in the formulation of a resin can have. I just finished up a huge project at work to change resin suppliers for one grade of resin, and it's a huge pain.
Sure, they might all be "ABS", but the name of a polymer only identifies which monomers compose it (with the exception of LDPE, LLDPE, HDPE, which are all polyethylene - but that's the most commonly used polymer in the world, so that makes sense ;) ). "ABS" does not tell you anything about the chain lengths or any additives that might be present in the polymer. But then you'd also have to consider the method of polymerization. Some copolymers (multiple monomers in the same structure) are formed by alternating between the monomers (think of a chain of ABABABAB), or some variant of that (ABBABBABB, etc), while some are more complex networks of monomers (small globules of A, with "strings" of B connecting them), etc. These different types of structures would all have different implications of how the physical properties would change based on other material changes, and it's really not as simple as "This is ABS, that is ABS, therefore they are the same".
And sometimes these changes are not even cost-cutting measures. Sometimes suppliers discontinue products, or consolidate multiple products into one, forcing the manufacturer to adjust to new materials.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of resin melt rheology and how all that interacts with each other.
The new GMK sets are not thinner, they use the same amount of material. I've compered TA with several Vintage Cherry sets, no difference in weight. The most likely reason is the material itself, which is less opaque.
:thumb:
It's getting tiring trying to keep some of this FUD in check.
I know not everyone has the benefit of way too much technical schooling like some of us (unfortunate) souls and the properties of light in materials is all voodoo, but just for giggles lets analyze the situation. Which is more likely? 1) GMK invested tens of thousands of dollars to make new thinner molds to save pennies per keyset, or 2) GMKs plastics supplier changed the coloring resulting in a less opaque plastic?
I mean... seriously.
No 1 is extremely likely. GMK probably does tons of volume, as they make keycaps for all sorts of applications beyond consumer keyboards.
At that scale, a savings of even a fraction of penny per key would absolutely be worth it in the end. I think it's extremely naive to think they wouldn't do that.
No 1 is extremely likely. GMK probably does tons of volume, as they make keycaps for all sorts of applications beyond consumer keyboards.
I think that most people would be shocked to understand how much impact a slight variation in the formulation of a resin can have. I just finished up a huge project at work to change resin suppliers for one grade of resin, and it's a huge pain.Thanks to the [CTRL]ALT interview, I can now read Hoff's posts in his voice, and that really makes me happy. Thanks for dropping knowledge Hoffman!
Sure, they might all be "ABS", but the name of a polymer only identifies which monomers compose it (with the exception of LDPE, LLDPE, HDPE, which are all polyethylene - but that's the most commonly used polymer in the world, so that makes sense ;) ). "ABS" does not tell you anything about the chain lengths or any additives that might be present in the polymer. But then you'd also have to consider the method of polymerization. Some copolymers (multiple monomers in the same structure) are formed by alternating between the monomers (think of a chain of ABABABAB), or some variant of that (ABBABBABB, etc), while some are more complex networks of monomers (small globules of A, with "strings" of B connecting them), etc. These different types of structures would all have different implications of how the physical properties would change based on other material changes, and it's really not as simple as "This is ABS, that is ABS, therefore they are the same".
And sometimes these changes are not even cost-cutting measures. Sometimes suppliers discontinue products, or consolidate multiple products into one, forcing the manufacturer to adjust to new materials.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of resin melt rheology and how all that interacts with each other.
Putting this rumor to rest right now.
I pulled out some mediocre but good enoughHarbor Freight calipers because I didn't feel like getting out the good ones to do the measurements. To ensure some standardization, I measure the 9( cap from an OG WoB set and TA.
If anything, the TA set is thicker than OG Cherry. The front of the cap was approximately 1.6mm on the TA, ~1.45-1.5mm on the OG. The rear was 1.65-1.7mm on the OG, leaning closer to 1.6mm while the TA set leaned toward 1.7mm. The sides were 1.40-1.5mm, with the OG leaning closer to the 1.4mm side and TA leaning closer to 1.5mm.
This is consistent with how molds age. As the get older, they wear down some and you end up with thicker parts.
In other words, if any changes occurred, it was a change in the formulation of ABS used. This is what I've suspected since the plastics on the TA set feel different than other GMK sets I own and feel different from OG sets to which previous GMK sets felt more similar.