GMK recent light leak problem - Answer: It's the materials used, NOT thickness

[Zorberema]

I'm honestly surprised how many folks even use backlighting...

I'm still amazed that people expect caps to have no bleed at all, especially with lighter color plastics.

And especially in a fully dark room... I'd like to see how it looks when there's some light in the room! Of course there's light bleed if the LED's are the only light source!

[jbondeson]

The new GMK sets are not thinner, they use the same amount of material. I've compered TA with several Vintage Cherry sets, no difference in weight. The most likely reason is the material itself, which is less opaque.

 

It's getting tiring trying to keep some of this FUD in check.

I know not everyone has the benefit of way too much technical schooling like some of us (unfortunate) souls and the properties of light in materials is all voodoo, but just for giggles lets analyze the situation. Which is more likely? 1) GMK invested tens of thousands of dollars to make new thinner molds to save pennies per keyset, or 2) GMKs plastics supplier changed the coloring resulting in a less opaque plastic?

I mean... seriously.

[CPTBadAss]

To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.

[nubbinator]

To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.

That's what it feels like to me.

[jbondeson]

To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.

Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself. I'm just amazed how people jump to the conclusion that would have cost GMK money.

[CPTBadAss]

To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.

Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself.

Yup and we're not privy to GMK's internatal workings. I'm not sure how it works in the plastics manufacturing industry. Hoff would know more than I do.

I deal mainly in metals at work. Even though we order Aluminum Blah, each batch of Blah may be different slightly. This can lead to things like cracking that wasn't expected. So Blah may not always equal Blah.

It's very possible that there are multiple suppliers (we do that to ensure production doesn't stop) or different batches of plastic which have slightly different properties.

I haven't read much of the thread so I'm just replying to your posts jbondeson.

[jbondeson]

Yup and we're not privy to GMK's internatal workings. I'm not sure how it works in the plastics manufacturing industry. Hoff would know more than I do.

I deal mainly in metals at work. Even though we order Aluminum Blah, each batch of Blah may be different slightly. This can lead to things like cracking that wasn't expected. So Blah may not always equal Blah.

It's very possible that there are multiple suppliers (we do that to ensure production doesn't stop) or different batches of plastic which have slightly different properties.

That's my understanding as well, and my experience is on the hobby side with thermoplastics for 3D printing (ABS, PLA, etc).

I guess I'm just really annoyed about how many people don't understand the basics of light transmission through mediums, or what thermoplastics are...

I mean... come on you can have 3 INCH THICK TRANSLUCENT ABS! 

[KHAANNN]

I'm honestly surprised how many folks even use backlighting...

I'm still amazed that people expect caps to have no bleed at all, especially with lighter color plastics.

I'm amazed no one painted underneath the keycaps yet to stop the bleed, considering various issues with keycaps, the solution to this one seems straightforward

[Zorberema]

I'm honestly surprised how many folks even use backlighting...

I'm still amazed that people expect caps to have no bleed at all, especially with lighter color plastics.

I'm amazed no one painted underneath the keycaps yet to stop the bleed, considering various issues with keycaps, the solution to this one seems straightforward

Thats actually quite genius... I think the light bleed isn't really the problem here; the problem is the fact that their older keys had higher quality than their new; the light bleed problem itself isn't the big deal!

[rabidwombat]

And there is also the hidden assumption that opaque abs = good, translucent abs = bad... Which may not be really the case..

[Lastpilot]

And there is also the hidden assumption that opaque abs = good, translucent abs = bad... Which may not be really the case..

I don't think anyone is saying translucent abs itself bad. I just think I am among backlight users who haven't had to worry about our GMK keycaps letting light through until recently. And for some users who use backlighting regularly, its worth investigation.

I will ask them for sure. However, Christoph is away for a few weeks. I'll ask him when he gets back.

Also, for those who haven't been checking the Beige GB, Photekq has agreed to show this thread to Christoph (representative at GMK) so we may get a direct response on this when he gets back to work.

[Lastpilot]

I understand that for many people GMK represents a large sum of your invested money and that it is completely natural to feel emotional when talking about it, but please refrain from blowing anything here out of proportion.

Nobody is trying to instill the fear that GMK will cease to make good products. However, regardless of how great things are, mechanical keyboard users will typically investigate potential doubts and effective solutions or alternatives. That's what gets us out of rubber dome land in the first place.

This thread is here to share information and compare theories, not to defend or attack GMK and the quality of its products. That would be an opinion/debate/discussion thread separate from this one.

This thread exists to bring light (no pun intended) to recent observations of the light leaking issue. It's purely an aesthetic issue, so it is not particularly interesting to those that do not use backlight. It may be urgent to some and meaningless to others. That's fine, but that is also a debate that deserves a separate thread.

Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself. I'm just amazed how people jump to the conclusion that would have cost GMK money.

GMK is a for-profit company. I don't think its unreasonable to speculate that recent changes in products may be the result of a business strategy. Most intentional changes in a for-profit company are for just that; profit.

On the other hand, we have no idea whether or not this change was intentional. I also agree with what CPTBadAss said: suppliers can change or the supply itself can demonstrate variance. If this is the case, then its likely that GMK may not even be aware that this change ever occurred, leaving the investigation to us, and thus giving more purpose to this thread.

My point is, be it intentional or unintentional, for profit or not for profit, backlight user or not, painted underside keycaps or not, the issue exists and mechanical keyboard users can only benefit from it gaining recognition and investigation.

The charred orange / skidata pictures in this thread clearly show that a change was made resulting in GMK keycaps becoming more translucent. I believe that if we gather more "hard evidence" we can 1) make better educated guesses in what happened in case we do not get an answer from GMK and 2) help GMK recognize the issue and give them information they need to address it.

This thread is not here to crucify GMK, it is only here to help centralize the information regarding this matter and potentially related manufacturing irregularities.

[jbondeson]

[...]

Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself. I'm just amazed how people jump to the conclusion that would have cost GMK money.

GMK is a for-profit company. I don't think its unreasonable to speculate that recent changes in products may be the result of a business strategy. Most intentional changes in a for-profit company are for just that; profit.
[...]

I agree with what you're saying here, which is mostly what my point is. If people are trying to attribute this to a deliberate change by GMK jumping to thinner molds, it doesn't really pass the smell test. New molds are a serious capital investment, and the raw plastics themselves (wholesale ABS is around $1.30/lb) likely represents a very tiny fraction of their costs. 

My problem was with the people throwing definitive statements like "New GMK key caps are thinner" around in this and other threads without thinking it through. Now it's certainly in the realm of possibility that they debuted new molds in late 2013/2014, and they happened to have the same overall material but just less on top, and somehow no one noticed until it showed up with backlighting, but that seem like a fairly remote possibility.

cue reaction gif...

More

[HoffmanMyster]

To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.

Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself.

Yup and we're not privy to GMK's internatal workings. I'm not sure how it works in the plastics manufacturing industry. Hoff would know more than I do.

I deal mainly in metals at work. Even though we order Aluminum Blah, each batch of Blah may be different slightly. This can lead to things like cracking that wasn't expected. So Blah may not always equal Blah.

It's very possible that there are multiple suppliers (we do that to ensure production doesn't stop) or different batches of plastic which have slightly different properties.

I haven't read much of the thread so I'm just replying to your posts jbondeson.

I think that most people would be shocked to understand how much impact a slight variation in the formulation of a resin can have.  I just finished up a huge project at work to change resin suppliers for one grade of resin, and it's a huge pain. 

Sure, they might all be "ABS", but the name of a polymer only identifies which monomers compose it (with the exception of LDPE, LLDPE, HDPE, which are all polyethylene - but that's the most commonly used polymer in the world, so that makes sense ).  "ABS" does not tell you anything about the chain lengths or any additives that might be present in the polymer.  But then you'd also have to consider the method of polymerization.  Some copolymers (multiple monomers in the same structure) are formed by alternating between the monomers (think of a chain of ABABABAB), or some variant of that (ABBABBABB, etc), while some are more complex networks of monomers (small globules of A, with "strings" of B connecting them), etc.  These different types of structures would all have different implications of how the physical properties would change based on other material changes, and it's really not as simple as "This is ABS, that is ABS, therefore they are the same".

And sometimes these changes are not even cost-cutting measures.  Sometimes suppliers discontinue products, or consolidate multiple products into one, forcing the manufacturer to adjust to new materials.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of resin melt rheology and how all that interacts with each other.

[intelli78]

lol OKAY MISTER SCIENDIST

Back to business, boys

[Den441]

To go with jbondeson's post: It's also possible the batch of pellets from their supplier has a slightly different formulation then what they had in the past.

Certainly, could be the base, could be the coloring, could be lots of stuff with the plastic itself.

Yup and we're not privy to GMK's internatal workings. I'm not sure how it works in the plastics manufacturing industry. Hoff would know more than I do.

I deal mainly in metals at work. Even though we order Aluminum Blah, each batch of Blah may be different slightly. This can lead to things like cracking that wasn't expected. So Blah may not always equal Blah.

It's very possible that there are multiple suppliers (we do that to ensure production doesn't stop) or different batches of plastic which have slightly different properties.

I haven't read much of the thread so I'm just replying to your posts jbondeson.

I think that most people would be shocked to understand how much impact a slight variation in the formulation of a resin can have.  I just finished up a huge project at work to change resin suppliers for one grade of resin, and it's a huge pain. 

Sure, they might all be "ABS", but the name of a polymer only identifies which monomers compose it (with the exception of LDPE, LLDPE, HDPE, which are all polyethylene - but that's the most commonly used polymer in the world, so that makes sense ).  "ABS" does not tell you anything about the chain lengths or any additives that might be present in the polymer.  But then you'd also have to consider the method of polymerization.  Some copolymers (multiple monomers in the same structure) are formed by alternating between the monomers (think of a chain of ABABABAB), or some variant of that (ABBABBABB, etc), while some are more complex networks of monomers (small globules of A, with "strings" of B connecting them), etc.  These different types of structures would all have different implications of how the physical properties would change based on other material changes, and it's really not as simple as "This is ABS, that is ABS, therefore they are the same".

And sometimes these changes are not even cost-cutting measures.  Sometimes suppliers discontinue products, or consolidate multiple products into one, forcing the manufacturer to adjust to new materials.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of resin melt rheology and how all that interacts with each other.

That was a great explanation. I wasn't sure myself if there could be any variation in ABS. The more you know.

[nubbinator]

Tl;dr for what Hoff said about plastics and light bleed:




Alternatively:


And GMK:

[Lastpilot]

More

I think that most people would be shocked to understand how much impact a slight variation in the formulation of a resin can have.  I just finished up a huge project at work to change resin suppliers for one grade of resin, and it's a huge pain. 

Sure, they might all be "ABS", but the name of a polymer only identifies which monomers compose it (with the exception of LDPE, LLDPE, HDPE, which are all polyethylene - but that's the most commonly used polymer in the world, so that makes sense ).  "ABS" does not tell you anything about the chain lengths or any additives that might be present in the polymer.  But then you'd also have to consider the method of polymerization.  Some copolymers (multiple monomers in the same structure) are formed by alternating between the monomers (think of a chain of ABABABAB), or some variant of that (ABBABBABB, etc), while some are more complex networks of monomers (small globules of A, with "strings" of B connecting them), etc.  These different types of structures would all have different implications of how the physical properties would change based on other material changes, and it's really not as simple as "This is ABS, that is ABS, therefore they are the same".

And sometimes these changes are not even cost-cutting measures.  Sometimes suppliers discontinue products, or consolidate multiple products into one, forcing the manufacturer to adjust to new materials.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of resin melt rheology and how all that interacts with each other.

[Air tree]

Can we get back to the witch hunt now?

[limitz]

The new GMK sets are not thinner, they use the same amount of material. I've compered TA with several Vintage Cherry sets, no difference in weight. The most likely reason is the material itself, which is less opaque.

 

It's getting tiring trying to keep some of this FUD in check.

I know not everyone has the benefit of way too much technical schooling like some of us (unfortunate) souls and the properties of light in materials is all voodoo, but just for giggles lets analyze the situation. Which is more likely? 1) GMK invested tens of thousands of dollars to make new thinner molds to save pennies per keyset, or 2) GMKs plastics supplier changed the coloring resulting in a less opaque plastic?

I mean... seriously.

No 1 is extremely likely. GMK probably does tons of volume, as they make keycaps for all sorts of applications beyond consumer keyboards.

At that scale, a savings of even a fraction of penny per key would absolutely be worth it in the end. I think it's extremely naive to think they wouldn't do that.

[jbondeson]

No 1 is extremely likely. GMK probably does tons of volume, as they make keycaps for all sorts of applications beyond consumer keyboards.

At that scale, a savings of even a fraction of penny per key would absolutely be worth it in the end. I think it's extremely naive to think they wouldn't do that.

They do make key caps of all types but the molds would only benefit a small subset of those: Cherry MX in Cherry profile. It's hard to know total volume, but MX compatible keyboards with cherry profile are a very, very niche product. I'd be impressed if they move 200k sets a year.

As a thought exercise lets do some back of the envelope math on this. A full key set weighs ~0.5 lbs, so let's just round up and call it $1.00 of plastic. Let's say they reaaally thinned out the caps and removed 25% of the plastic. So we've saved $0.25 per key set! (~0.2% of total retail price). Now this isn't free, high volume molds are really expensive, let's call it $10k labor and materials (this is probably really low). Let's screw the ISO users (cause they don't get screwed enough) and just do the molds for an ANSI  keyboard you're going to need 12 minimum so we're at $120,000. This puts their break even point around 500,000 MX keysets.  The reality is this is likely much higher.

Now if the original molds were breaking down and they were making new ones anyway, sure they might thin out the mold, but again the gains aren't really there.

The reality is there are much easier ways to recoup that money without the capital expense: waste reduction, reduced QC (haha), process improvement.

[nubbinator]

No 1 is extremely likely. GMK probably does tons of volume, as they make keycaps for all sorts of applications beyond consumer keyboards.

Putting this rumor to rest right now.

I pulled out some mediocre but good enoughHarbor Freight calipers because I didn't feel like getting out the good ones to do the measurements.  To ensure some standardization, I measure the 9( cap from an OG WoB set and TA.

If anything, the TA set is thicker than OG Cherry.  The front of the cap was approximately 1.6mm on the TA, ~1.45-1.5mm on the OG.  The rear was 1.65-1.7mm on the OG, leaning closer to 1.6mm while the TA set leaned toward 1.7mm.  The sides were 1.40-1.5mm, with the OG leaning closer to the 1.4mm side and TA leaning closer to 1.5mm.

This is consistent with how molds age.  As the get older, they wear down some and you end up with thicker parts.

In other words, if any changes occurred, it was a change in the formulation of ABS used.  This is what I've suspected since the plastics on the TA set feel different than other GMK sets I own and feel different from OG sets to which previous GMK sets felt more similar.

[MythicalWagyu]

I think that most people would be shocked to understand how much impact a slight variation in the formulation of a resin can have.  I just finished up a huge project at work to change resin suppliers for one grade of resin, and it's a huge pain. 

Sure, they might all be "ABS", but the name of a polymer only identifies which monomers compose it (with the exception of LDPE, LLDPE, HDPE, which are all polyethylene - but that's the most commonly used polymer in the world, so that makes sense ).  "ABS" does not tell you anything about the chain lengths or any additives that might be present in the polymer.  But then you'd also have to consider the method of polymerization.  Some copolymers (multiple monomers in the same structure) are formed by alternating between the monomers (think of a chain of ABABABAB), or some variant of that (ABBABBABB, etc), while some are more complex networks of monomers (small globules of A, with "strings" of B connecting them), etc.  These different types of structures would all have different implications of how the physical properties would change based on other material changes, and it's really not as simple as "This is ABS, that is ABS, therefore they are the same".

And sometimes these changes are not even cost-cutting measures.  Sometimes suppliers discontinue products, or consolidate multiple products into one, forcing the manufacturer to adjust to new materials.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of resin melt rheology and how all that interacts with each other.

Thanks to the [CTRL]ALT interview, I can now read Hoff's posts in his voice, and that really makes me happy. Thanks for dropping knowledge Hoffman!

[IvanIvanovich]

First off... GMK does not intend doubleshot keycap to be used with backlight. It is not an intended use case, so it's a user created 'problem'.
Second, EVERY keycaps will exhibit some of this with certain plastic+led color. It is totally unavoidable.
Third, even with any issues they are still the most premium doubleshot keycaps that are currently available. I am like 95% sure they have multiple materials vendors, and are subject to the whims of their suppliers to a degree. Perhaps they had to use vendor C for color Y who supplied a batch that wasn't quite as opaque as what they got previously from vendor A. Since they don't intend to use it with backlight they didn't check it.
As for the TA massdrop sets, I didn't participate in that one, so I can't say from a personal point... but with such a large order there is bound to be more perceived QA defect with small things like legend warp, color swirl, etc. where massdrop probably did not take the time to check sets and set aside 'bad' keys and request new ones from GMK like I do. Scratch, dent, chip... that happen in shipping you cannot blame.

[Lastpilot]

Putting this rumor to rest right now.

I pulled out some mediocre but good enoughHarbor Freight calipers because I didn't feel like getting out the good ones to do the measurements.  To ensure some standardization, I measure the 9( cap from an OG WoB set and TA.

If anything, the TA set is thicker than OG Cherry.  The front of the cap was approximately 1.6mm on the TA, ~1.45-1.5mm on the OG.  The rear was 1.65-1.7mm on the OG, leaning closer to 1.6mm while the TA set leaned toward 1.7mm.  The sides were 1.40-1.5mm, with the OG leaning closer to the 1.4mm side and TA leaning closer to 1.5mm.

This is consistent with how molds age.  As the get older, they wear down some and you end up with thicker parts.

In other words, if any changes occurred, it was a change in the formulation of ABS used.  This is what I've suspected since the plastics on the TA set feel different than other GMK sets I own and feel different from OG sets to which previous GMK sets felt more similar.

Updated thread title to avoid further rumors.