Author Topic: StarCraft II with GeekHack  (Read 164906 times)

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Offline wongster

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StarCraft II with GeekHack
« Reply #150 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:54:23 »
It was awesome playing with sawedust and Mittens (I think they just played easy on me haha)! They're great people and very knowledgeable about the game, as well as being very helpful. I encourage others to join the geekhack channel when they're free!
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #151 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:40:19 »
Quote from: manfaux;296008
er......what's NASL's prize pool?


That's a good question.  It doesn't need to be very much to compete with Korea, and if you include traveling and other expenses a first place prize of at least 5000 USD is already breaking even plus some.  GSL's Code A first prize is a measly 1000 USD with insanely better competition, Code S obviously much more.

We'll just have to find out in a couple days!

Quote from: Crypt;296025
Day9's back to the basics video is a mandatory watch for anyone under high Diamond, IMO.  I've seen Rank 1 Master players get supply blocked and such.  Fundamentals are really important.  His new mechanics video is dangerous to watch, IMO, as I don't agree with several things that he says.

As for anyone bronze to low diamond, I highly recommend just practicing one build per matchup continuously while working on the fundamentals -- making workers, spending money well, and scouting.  You'll be advancing in no time at all.  :)


Yep, 132 is amazing.  I still find myself going back and watching it when I have spare time.  It's that episode and 252 (hotkeys, APM, warming up, etc) that are my go-to episodes.

Quote from: wongster;296165
It was awesome playing with sawedust and Mittens (I think they just played easy on me haha)! They're great people and very knowledgeable about the game, as well as being very helpful. I encourage others to join the geekhack channel when they're free!


We're going to have a rematch soon, you know that right? :)
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Offline Crypt

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« Reply #152 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:17:46 »
Quote from: Kaz!o;296034
Crypt, could you tell me with which points you don't agree with Day[9]?
I'm generally a big fan of his, so I'm definitely not biased.  I watched the #252 video on recommendation.  Off of the top of my head:

"don't box single units"  -- even pros and master league players do this.  I believe it's optimal for fast play, since 100% accuracy with the mouse shouldn't be taken for granted.  Even day9 does it in this very same cast.

Location hotkey for the first base -- you already have a control group for your base, so why make things more complex?

he clicks on the mini map then clicks on the main screen to move when clicking on the mini map to move should suffice in most situations.

"always box from top left" -- his reasoning is accuracy.  Accuracy should be traded for speed in most situations.

"edge scrolling is slow/bad"  -- he's demonstrating on default scroll speed.  I believe with fast edge scroll speed, it can be used optimally in many situations rather than mini map clicking.

His section on staring at the mini map is also sorta dangerous because he doesn't show how to balance it with checking mineral/supply cap.  Doing this without good habits for checking min/supply could be disastrous.

His "tapping" section could prove useful for players that don't already tap.  But yea, overall, I felt like there was a lot of misinformation in the cast that also serves to make gamers feel overwhelmed with complexity when these habits shouldn't be followed at all.  These tips were meant for the mainstream to improve, but when even rank 1 masters/pros don't do these things, one has to wonder.

Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #153 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:54:31 »
I liked Day[9] a lot better during the broodwar days. You don't hear him cursing or talking about bear semen and having sex with his mom anymore.
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Offline Azuremen

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« Reply #154 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:06:01 »
Edge scrolling is just bad. Use Middle Click Drag Scroll, profit immensely.

And we (a group of friends and I) joke that Day9 has become of a parody of himself in many ways. But hey, the guy is getting flown out to cast games of StarCraft, so you can't blame him for cleaning up his act a little. Though some of his BW casts as legendary, namely Chill vs Combat-ex
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #155 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:24:17 »
@Crypt,

I think we have to look at this specific cast of Day[9] as catering towards the newer players who are around plat/gold level and below.  A lot of the stuff he mentions makes sense for the lower level players and/or new players who have not yet mastered their mouse control.  With that said...

Quote from: Crypt;296232
I'm generally a big fan of his, so I'm definitely not biased.  I watched the #252 video on recommendation.  Off of the top of my head:

"don't box single units"  -- even pros and master league players do this.  I believe it's optimal for fast play, since 100% accuracy with the mouse shouldn't be taken for granted.  Even day9 does it in this very same cast.


I admit that I do box single units, I do it in conjunction with edge scrolling as to move my probe to build a pylon near the ramp right at the start of the game.  Granted it's a small box, just large enough to select the probe and not four-gateway-full of space.

Pretty sure the reason he's mentioning it is for the newer players who have not yet gotten their control down and are making huge ass boxes, which is unnecessary.

It's also used to warm up your unit selection for the inevitable micro needed in battle later in the match.

Quote
Location hotkey for the first base -- you already have a control group for your base, so why make things more complex?


For me, it works immensely as I'm a Toss player.  I'll location hotkey my warpgates for easy access to chronoboost in the event of a 4wg.

But for the most part, my initial Nexus will be on 4 and thus proving your statement correct.  I'll also hotkey a Robo facility on 3 to jump back to my main base and for production, now that 44 automatically jumps me to the expansion.

Quote
"always box from top left" -- his reasoning is accuracy.  Accuracy should be traded for speed in most situations.


I think this one I agree with you.  In fact I've retrained myself to box top right down to bottom left as Tastosis recommended because you end up closer to the minimap.

But he does make a point that it's easier to box from top to bottom than it is from bottom to top.  Same reason why it's easier to attack from top to bottom than from bottom to top.  Mouse control.

Quote
"edge scrolling is slow/bad"  -- he's demonstrating on default scroll speed.  I believe with fast edge scroll speed, it can be used optimally in many situations rather than mini map clicking.


To make a point to the newer players to use their minimap.  I myself use edge scrolling at 100 percent and it works for me.  But I only use it for close locations, like my main base in the first couple minutes of the game, or to micro an army around a certain area.

Quote
His section on staring at the mini map is also sorta dangerous because he doesn't show how to balance it with checking mineral/supply cap.  Doing this without good habits for checking min/supply could be disastrous.


I think he meant to constantly look at the minimap to check, and not literally to stare.  In 132 he always references checking your supply and minerals at the top right, so if used in conjunction with this lesson then a player should always be checking every integral part of the screen.  It's just part of the mental checklist we're trying to ingrain into players and ourselves.

Quote
His "tapping" section could prove useful for players that don't already tap.  But yea, overall, I felt like there was a lot of misinformation in the cast that also serves to make gamers feel overwhelmed with complexity when these habits shouldn't be followed at all.  These tips were meant for the mainstream to improve, but when even rank 1 masters/pros don't do these things, one has to wonder.


I interpreted this as just basic knowledge for the newer and/or less experienced players to improve, but also to keep in mind that nothing is ever finite.  Everyone has their own way of playing and whatever is comfortable should be the way that they play the game.

However Day[9] makes great points throughout that cast and while he may have overexaggerated several points such as the minimap and the mouse control, I think it's just to show that you should train yourself to use everything at your disposal instead of just what's directly in front of you.

The whole mouse control thing is useful when trying to pick out a certain unit (like a stalker) in your army cluster that you're trying to blink back.  When you get used to picking out a single unit (like a probe) in a huge mob at the start of the game, it'll be easier to pick single units throughout the game for micro and what not.

Not trying to be condescending or anything, but I wanted to play Devil's advocate for this part in order to stimulate some discussion and reasoning on why or why not certain things are great.

In the end, we'll all benefit from this sort of discussion and see how we all can learn or improve! :D
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #156 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:36:34 »
**** day9. tastosis is where it's at.

Offline wongster

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« Reply #157 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:00:51 »
Day9 tries to explain mechanics that would help a majority of SC2 players out there, namely the lower-level/new people. It's too hard to come up with mechanics that will help everyone. I think people have to remember that Day9's advice is just that: advice, tips, and guidelines to help you become a better SC2 player. If it works for you, fantastic! If not, try something else, maybe it will help your game more than his advice. In the end, it only helps you in trying to improve your game, which I'm sure is what all players want to do.

@sawedust: We'll definitely have a rematch dude. I could be the Zerg practice buddy you try rofl-stomping strategies on. You only lost because you're on a new keyboard, not because I'm good :) Oh, and you typed that super long response above just so you could type on your new Filco, huh? Haha
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #158 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 18:04:31 »
Quote from: manfaux;296284
**** day9. tastosis is where it's at.


LOL Day[9] would probably ROFLstomp both his brother and Artosis if they ever played.  Plus I though it was epic when the three of them got to cast at Blizzcon.

Quote from: wongster;296298
@sawedust: We'll definitely have a rematch dude. I could be the Zerg practice buddy you try rofl-stomping strategies on. You only lost because you're on a new keyboard, not because I'm good :) Oh, and you typed that super long response above just so you could type on your new Filco, huh? Haha


I think it was a BO loss on my part since I didn't make colossi and/or VRs :/  But you played well regardless!  Can't blame it on the keyboard as it was a mental mistake from not playing as often as I should.

And yes, I made that super long response because I absolutely enjoy typing on this baby :D
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Offline hate

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« Reply #159 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 19:07:30 »
Quote from: sawedust;296377
LOL Day[9] would probably ROFLstomp both his brother and Artosis if they ever played.


you have no idea about Artosis.

as for day[9] hes pretty meh for the most of his theorycrafting but he has one of the most annoying fanbase ever (i gues only the huskateers are worse).
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #160 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 19:16:35 »
ya im pretty sure Artosis will rofl stomp day9 no problem. He made it into GSL ro64 afterall haha.

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #161 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 19:46:40 »
We all know D9, if he wanted to take SC2 as seriously as he did BW, would hold his own.   Instead he's busy playing monobattles and fours and Text Twist and whatever else he would usually do.

Yeah, Artosis made RO64 in the first GSL but we all know that was the weakest of the four major GSL tournaments so far.  

But point taken, now that Artosis switched to Toss and D9 looks like he's maining Zerg and all the IMBALANCE web shows that Dan and the Grack love to do every week...

Perhaps Artosis would win.

Meh.
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Offline JelinaNU

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« Reply #162 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 21:04:23 »
Quote from: Azuremen;295199
If you are in Plat, regardless of connection, you are not in position to be able to discuss the dynamics of the game too much


I feel the need to point out that this quite an unsubstantiated logical leap -- and likely a fallacy. I agree that being a great analyst would require a level of game knowledge that included experiential nuances of the game. That does not, however, mean that one without said knowledge couldn't make a cogent point and/or argument. While I, for example, may not be able to speak to the specific timings of select circumstance-specific openings/builds/pushes with any authority, I am beyond capable of parsing recent "standard" lines of play (read: those builds and styles composing the so-called metagame) and asking why players take them as a given. Reapers are trash? Why? These are the types of questions that many of the players above Plat forget to ask once they reach that level; their play becomes reactive mimicry.
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Offline Crypt

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« Reply #163 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 06:05:43 »
"I interpreted this as just basic knowledge for the newer and/or less experienced players to improve, but also to keep in mind that nothing is ever finite. Everyone has their own way of playing and whatever is comfortable should be the way that they play the game."

Indeed, I believe his videos are mostly aimed at beginner-mid level.  The problem is I believe those players take his words as gospel.  Day9 is showing his mechanics as "how to do things right" instead of "how Day9 (supposedly) likes to do things."

Let me see if I can address some points:

Yes, I agree that clicking units is a good warmup/calibration technique.  He does not mention this point, however, and just makes a blanket statement that boxing individual units should not be done.

Edge scrolling -- I use the mini map often.  Edge scrolling is good in more cases than he shows due to his scroll speed setting, though.  And, he doesn't mention that the scroll speed should be increased.  Having beginners turn up their edge scroll speed is probably more useful than telling them that edge scrolling is bad.

Looking at mini map -- Yes, if they watched #132, they would find a way to balance these things on their own.  However, I don't expect beginners to have watched the past ~120 dailies.

Overall combination of misinformation and needlessly added complexity is dangerous for those that take his words at face value.  Sure, there is useful information in there, but it's difficult for someone without experience to be critical of it on his own.

No worries about offending.  :)  I never take anything personally, especially not this type of discussion.

I've probably seen 100+ dailies, and I've only disagreed with him on one other point aside from these videos.  He's a big proponent on making exactly the # of structures that you can support with the current economy.  I believe that's a mistake, as having extra production options can allow you to adjust your unit mix to do better against your opponent.  In the GSTL, I believe a Protoss had 6 unit production buildings on one base.  Another prime example is when a Terran has double starport vs. Protoss.  He's not continually using them, but he will use both when he sees that he needs a large amount of vikings.

Offline Daniel Beaver

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« Reply #164 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 06:32:43 »
(Day[9] fan-boy, have watched his dailies since the beginning)

His general points are sound and non-obvious to newer and medium-ranked players. Starcraft is an interesting case among games, because the fundamental mechanics are so much more complex than is general, and it is so unforgiving. For a very good player, Day[9] probably isn't the best resource. But for the community as a whole, he can only help.

Say what you will about his playing ability, but as a caster for games, I think he is fabulous. His speaking abilities are refined, and he brings an enthusiasm to the games which many other casters lack. His work at MLG and Dreamhack, for example, greatly enhanced the experience. It seems obvious that he is going to follow the path of Artosis and his brother, and he'll do a damn good job at it.

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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #165 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 14:23:13 »
@Crypt,

Glad that we've come across a mutual understanding!  Day[9] has excellent points, but as you've mentioned in can be hard to distinguish exactly what, where, when, and how to do something he says.  For beginners and/or hardcore fanboys who take his advice word-for-word, they are going to encounter some issues as a literal understanding of Day[9]'s suggestions will hinder them.

But if they were to take them as ideas to implement and be aware of, then they should improve their game very fast as those things he's mentioned are essentially the basics of SC2 that all players should know.

Quote from: Crypt;296616
I've probably seen 100+ dailies, and I've only disagreed with him on one other point aside from these videos.  He's a big proponent on making exactly the # of structures that you can support with the current economy.  I believe that's a mistake, as having extra production options can allow you to adjust your unit mix to do better against your opponent.  In the GSTL, I believe a Protoss had 6 unit production buildings on one base.  Another prime example is when a Terran has double starport vs. Protoss.  He's not continually using them, but he will use both when he sees that he needs a large amount of vikings.


I kind of agree with D9 on that point.  I think his point with not creating additional structures (aimed towards newer players) is to make sure you can constantly produce out of all your buildings in order to build up a sizable army.  Just a basic macro lesson for the new guys.  Building an extra gateway or two (when you already have three or four up and no expansion) is another two or three zealots that can be used in your army.

As we gain a better understanding of the game when moving up through the ranks, from experience we realize how much structures we can support according to which unit composition we're looking to create.

For beginners who only know MMM or 4gate (which are still legit strategies at higher levels!), creating too many unit producing structures actually hinders them in the early game where they tend to stick on one base for the majority of the game.  I think this was the point that Day[9] was trying to make.

Quote from: Daniel Beaver;296623
Say what you will about his playing ability, but as a caster for games, I think he is fabulous. His speaking abilities are refined, and he brings an enthusiasm to the games which many other casters lack. His work at MLG and Dreamhack, for example, greatly enhanced the experience. It seems obvious that he is going to follow the path of Artosis and his brother, and he'll do a damn good job at it.


I think he's the best caster in the game when it comes to blending enthusiasm, entertainment, and knowledge.

I love all the people who hate on his dailies because they're a hour long and that's too long, and instead choose to watch pro replays casted by Husky instead.  Nothing against Husky, I watched a lot of his videos too when I started playing but I quickly learned that the analysis and insight that D9 brings into his casts are unparalleled by anyone else out there.

When Daystosis casted at Blizzcon, I thought that was one of the best casting teams that could ever be assembled.  If I had to pick between D9 and Tastosis though, I'd go with D9 as most of the time he seems more interested and enthusiastic about the game at hand.

How many times have we seen Tastosis disinterested in a game because it features a player they don't like or biased against in the GSL, and proceed to harass that player and be unprofessional about it?

On a side note, I think it's a little disappointing what's going on between the professional gamers, TL, and TotalBiscuit.  I love that guy's casts as he finds a way to make even the most mundane games seem exciting (watch him cast a game of Aiur Chef near the part where he goes 110 percent).

To hear the news that TB is cutting back on casting, or maybe not even casting at all, is disappointing for a viewer like me who enjoys what he brings to the table.
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Offline Jokah

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« Reply #166 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 16:54:56 »
Awesome thread. Awesome game.

My love of starcraft and need for a new keyboard brought me to geekhack. Thanks to geekhack I have just purchased my first mechanical keyboard.

Gaming doesn't get much better than this.

See you on the geekhack chat channel soon.
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Offline Daniel Beaver

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« Reply #167 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 18:11:26 »
Gah, grad school is not conducive to Starcraft play. I might have to switch back to something dumber. League of Legends time, woo!

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Offline JinDesu

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« Reply #168 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 19:02:56 »
Just jumping in with some of my thoughts as well

Quote
"don't box single units"  -- even pros and master league players do this.  I believe it's optimal for fast play, since 100% accuracy with the mouse shouldn't be taken for granted.  Even day9 does it in this very same cast.


I personally am trying to use single clicks more often now; not so that I will always single click my units instead of boxing, but so that I train my mouse accuracy to the point where I know I will have the mouse over the unit immediately when I need to.

Quote
Location hotkey for the first base -- you already have a control group for your base, so why make things more complex?


I think this was more tied to the "probe click distant location to build, F2 to swap screens back without losing probe control, shift right-click on mineral patchs." I'm practicing this as well, and I will agree that it is a lot quicker and feels a lot smoother than scrolling or trying to click on the minimap. I even suggest constantly refreshing your shift+f4 (I redid my hotkeys) location to wherever you need (secondary army, new base, outside pylons).

Quote
he clicks on the mini map then clicks on the main screen to move when clicking on the mini map to move should suffice in most situations.


I think the goal is tell us to strive for perfection. Unless you are that good, right clicking on the minimap is not as accurate as right clicking on the screen.

Quote
"always box from top left" -- his reasoning is accuracy.  Accuracy should be traded for speed in most situations.


I don't agree with accuracy should be traded with speed. No matter how fast I box my units, if I can't box the right amount of units, I have failed.

Quote
"edge scrolling is slow/bad"  -- he's demonstrating on default scroll speed.  I believe with fast edge scroll speed, it can be used optimally in many situations rather than mini map clicking.


A few people go with the middle mouse click scroll - I haven't gotten the hang of that and pretty much edge scroll.

Quote
His section on staring at the mini map is also sorta dangerous because he doesn't show how to balance it with checking mineral/supply cap.  Doing this without good habits for checking min/supply could be disastrous.


I don't know if it's possible to show his eye movements, even when he's trying to simulate it with the mouse. Generally though, supply cap should be an instinct. I know when I need supply; it's not just because I look at the number up there. Even if I lose units, I only need to look once to judge where I am and then to start counting supply from my production.

Minerals should also be the same; my production cycles should keep my minerals at a minimum unless I am trying to build more buildings. It should always be an instinct with occasional glances to keep me in reality.

Quote
His "tapping" section could prove useful for players that don't already tap.


It definitely does - I've been teaching my friend to play SC2, and I showed him that cast and he is trying to learn how to use the tap method (slow first, then fast). Instead of randomly spamming hotkeys, the tap method is basically the same motions but with actual information.
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #169 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 19:03:48 »
Quote from: sawedust;296818

How many times have we seen Tastosis disinterested in a game because it features a player they don't like or biased against in the GSL, and proceed to harass that player and be unprofessional about it?


you just don't get Tastosis do you.

Offline manfaux

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« Reply #170 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 19:11:41 »
Quote from: JinDesu;296961
Just jumping in with some of my thoughts as well



I personally am trying to use single clicks more often now; not so that I will always single click my units instead of boxing, but so that I train my mouse accuracy to the point where I know I will have the mouse over the unit immediately when I need to.



I think this was more tied to the "probe click distant location to build, F2 to swap screens back without losing probe control, shift right-click on mineral patchs." I'm practicing this as well, and I will agree that it is a lot quicker and feels a lot smoother than scrolling or trying to click on the minimap. I even suggest constantly refreshing your shift+f4 (I redid my hotkeys) location to wherever you need (secondary army, new base, outside pylons).



I think the goal is tell us to strive for perfection. Unless you are that good, right clicking on the minimap is not as accurate as right clicking on the screen.



I don't agree with accuracy should be traded with speed. No matter how fast I box my units, if I can't box the right amount of units, I have failed.



A few people go with the middle mouse click scroll - I haven't gotten the hang of that and pretty much edge scroll.



I don't know if it's possible to show his eye movements, even when he's trying to simulate it with the mouse. Generally though, supply cap should be an instinct. I know when I need supply; it's not just because I look at the number up there. Even if I lose units, I only need to look once to judge where I am and then to start counting supply from my production.

Minerals should also be the same; my production cycles should keep my minerals at a minimum unless I am trying to build more buildings. It should always be an instinct with occasional glances to keep me in reality.



It definitely does - I've been teaching my friend to play SC2, and I showed him that cast and he is trying to learn how to use the tap method (slow first, then fast). Instead of randomly spamming hotkeys, the tap method is basically the same motions but with actual information.



agree with most things you said there,

Middle click drag scroll is straight up retarded, I watch tons of pro streams and no one does it, I have no idea why someone would suggest drag scroll under any circumstances - it takes your finger away from left/right click and that's extremely dangerous. I've even seen pros use the arrow key cluster to scroll, but NEVER a drag scroll.

Offline JinDesu

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« Reply #171 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 20:21:51 »
Quote from: manfaux;296964
agree with most things you said there,

Middle click drag scroll is straight up retarded, I watch tons of pro streams and no one does it, I have no idea why someone would suggest drag scroll under any circumstances - it takes your finger away from left/right click and that's extremely dangerous. I've even seen pros use the arrow key cluster to scroll, but NEVER a drag scroll.


I think Boxer still uses the arrow cluster for scrolling; it takes quite a bit of coordination to even use it. I don't really know how detrimental the drag scroll is because I can't get used to it. It may be better for some people, and probably worse for a lotta other people.

The main benefit for the drag scroll is that the scroll is instantaneous. If you have high mouse sensitivity and high mouse scroll speed, edge scrolling might be just as fast, but it is also a little less accurate.

But again, I just use edge scrolling after 8 years of using edge scrolling in all my RTS'
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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #172 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 21:59:19 »
I still use classic keyboard layout even though everyone says I'm retarded for not using Grid.
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #173 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 22:23:42 »
@Jokah,

Awesome!  That's how I found my way here as well.  You're going to love your mechanical keyboard.  What did you get?

@Beaver,

Nah, you can do it haha.  Just need to get that school stuff done quicker so you have more time to enjoy with us!

@manfaux,

Please enlighten me then. :)

@JinDesu,

I think those who use the drag scroll are used to doing it when casting games.  IIRC they mentioned something about it during a GSL cast in between matches about optimal ways of scrolling around a screen.  I use edge scrolling anyway.

@speakeasy,

With the customizable hotkeys you can set it up so it's like a grid layout!  That's what I did with mine.  Having been so used to A-moving in my casual WC3 days I'd find it hard to switch to T-move.

Swapped all my hotkeys so that the furthest right on the keyboard I'd have to press would be the Y key to build a Cybernetics Core.
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Offline Konrad

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« Reply #174 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 23:38:44 »
Quote from: speakeasy;297041
I still use classic keyboard layout even though everyone says I'm retarded for not using Grid.
I'm a SC2 noob and definitely nowhere near any kind of professional competition.  I know SC2 well enough for typical multiplayer, I suppose, but most of the meta-analysis of meta-analysis in this thread confuses the hell outta me, lol.
 
Is "Grid" some kind of SC2-optimized keyboard layout?  Where can I learn about it?

Offline sawedust

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« Reply #175 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 01:33:05 »
Quote from: Konrad;297070
I'm a SC2 noob and definitely nowhere near any kind of professional competition.  I know SC2 well enough for typical multiplayer, I suppose, but most of the meta-analysis of meta-analysis in this thread confuses the hell outta me, lol.
 
Is "Grid" some kind of SC2-optimized keyboard layout?  Where can I learn about it?

Welcome to the thread! :D  I'm sure as you progress in your SC2 game you will come to learn and understand the rants and strategies we've been discussing in the past couple of pages.

Grid is a layout that binds all command to the keyboard like this:

Example 1
Example 2

Supposedly it makes playing and learning SC2 a lot easier as you don't have to worry about learning different hotkeys for each race, just understanding the grid layout as a whole.
« Last Edit: Fri, 18 February 2011, 01:40:58 by sawedust »
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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #176 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 03:02:29 »
Quote from: Konrad;297070
I'm a SC2 noob and definitely nowhere near any kind of professional competition.  I know SC2 well enough for typical multiplayer, I suppose, but most of the meta-analysis of meta-analysis in this thread confuses the hell outta me, lol.
 
Is "Grid" some kind of SC2-optimized keyboard layout?  Where can I learn about it?


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Offline Daniel Beaver

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« Reply #177 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 06:24:51 »
Quote from: speakeasy;297041
I still use classic keyboard layout even though everyone says I'm retarded for not using Grid.


You are :)

A lot of pros still use the old layout, since their muscle memory is stubborn. I forced myself to change to grid layout back in WC3 days (customkeys.txt), and am glad I did. It also helps a lot for custom games, since you don't have to learn hotkeys for every tower defense games. There are zero downsides, as far as I'm concerned.

It's a ***** to change layouts, though. Not unlike switching from QWERTY to DVORAK.

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Offline Jokah

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« Reply #178 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 06:34:59 »
@sawedust. I went for the ducky 1008 from pchome. Hasn't arrived yet but I'll be sure to give my views once it aririves.

Shame I won't be able to have a game with anyone here. I didn't think of this when I initially posted but I'm on EU server and I presume mist people here will be US.
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Offline speakeasy

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« Reply #179 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 13:46:34 »
Quote from: Daniel Beaver;297145
You are :)

A lot of pros still use the old layout, since their muscle memory is stubborn. I forced myself to change to grid layout back in WC3 days (customkeys.txt), and am glad I did. It also helps a lot for custom games, since you don't have to learn hotkeys for every tower defense games. There are zero downsides, as far as I'm concerned.

It's a ***** to change layouts, though. Not unlike switching from QWERTY to DVORAK.


Pssssh, Grid is for noobs :P

It's funny, cause when I was first learning Broodwar, I was complaining about the key layout and wondering why blizzard didn't put all the hotkeys all on the right side. I'd probably take the time to retrain my fingers when I decide to learn zerg and toss in this game, but for now I'd rather use my free hours to have fun and actually play the game. I don't think it's that bad since this new game doesn't require nearly as much APM as broodwar.
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Offline guilleguillaume

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« Reply #180 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 14:28:21 »
I tried GRID for first time...and it's a lot easier LOL

I think I should adapt to it.

Offline Azuremen

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« Reply #181 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 14:50:13 »
Quote from: JelinaNU;296480
I feel the need to point out that this quite an unsubstantiated logical leap -- and likely a fallacy. I agree that being a great analyst would require a level of game knowledge that included experiential nuances of the game. That does not, however, mean that one without said knowledge couldn't make a cogent point and/or argument. While I, for example, may not be able to speak to the specific timings of select circumstance-specific openings/builds/pushes with any authority, I am beyond capable of parsing recent "standard" lines of play (read: those builds and styles composing the so-called metagame) and asking why players take them as a given. Reapers are trash? Why? These are the types of questions that many of the players above Plat forget to ask once they reach that level; their play becomes reactive mimicry.

I would disagree, being well above Plat in terms of skill. Most players beyond the "I have 2 or 3 builds I do every game" have a very solid understanding of why this or that works. They also have the mechanics to back their opinion, where as lower level players will complain about imbalance in units while they really are just reacting poorly and having poor composistion - ala a Protoss that mostly makes Stalkers against a T because he has concluded Zealots don't anything because of kiting.

Though I've seen Plat players with great mechanics and just terrible decision making and control.

But as a general rule of thumb, Plat players are missing something that Diamond and Master players have, and it isn't necessarily experience or raw mechanics. And thus their input on how the game works isn't as well rounded or thought out. It is similar to when Gold players attempt to argue this or that based on their experience.

Quote from: manfaux;296964
agree with most things you said there,

Middle click drag scroll is straight up retarded, I watch tons of pro streams and no one does it, I have no idea why someone would suggest drag scroll under any circumstances - it takes your finger away from left/right click and that's extremely dangerous. I've even seen pros use the arrow key cluster to scroll, but NEVER a drag scroll.

HuK still puts his Nexus on 0 because P use to be for Probe.

Most of the things pros do are old habits from BW, not because it is the most optimal way to anything. Same why many use classic hot keys instead of Grid, and so on.

I use Drag Scroll almost exclusively. It is faster than moving to edge scroll, more precise, lets me move outside of 8 degrees of motion, and I can max it and get across smaller maps without lifting my mouse. Further, I can instantly adjust what I am looking at without having to move my cursor at all. Edge scroll is cumbersome in my opinion, and I know several other capable players that agree.

As for grid, I'd love to adjust to it but I learned almost all the hot keys for every race back in the beta before they introduced the options, so the muscle memory is just heavily ingrained. Tis what happens when you play Random for months.
« Last Edit: Fri, 18 February 2011, 14:52:53 by Azuremen »
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Offline wongster

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« Reply #182 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:08:11 »
I think what most people who are at a beginner level tend to miss is that tips/guidelines/Day9 dailies/pro techniques are there as options for a player to try out. You need to use those options to find something that works for you and makes you a better player. Sure there are basic mechanics people need to know in order to play effectively, but in the end you need to fine-tune the options given to you to suit how you play. Like Azuremen said, some pros use techniques from BW that they're most comfortable with, not necessarily because it's the best way to play.

Good, constructive discussion here by the way. Keep it up Geekhackers!
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Offline JinDesu

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« Reply #183 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:09:45 »
lol, I use 0 for my nexus. Anytime I need to make a probe, I have to do a nice stretch from 0 to e.

The reason I do it is because my hotkeys (and I'm forcing myself to keep to these hotkeys) are:

1,2,3 - Army/subarmies/casters
4 - Any new unit that I have to control separately for a reason/random pylon in the middle of nowhere
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Research building
7,8 - Observers
9 - Probe
0 - Nexus

So even though it's inconvenient to have Nexus at 0, I feel that I might as well get used to spanning the whole keyboard.
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #184 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:25:03 »
Quote from: JinDesu;297367
lol, I use 0 for my nexus. Anytime I need to make a probe, I have to do a nice stretch from 0 to e.

The reason I do it is because my hotkeys (and I'm forcing myself to keep to these hotkeys) are:

1,2,3 - Army/subarmies/casters
4 - Any new unit that I have to control separately for a reason/random pylon in the middle of nowhere
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Research building
7,8 - Observers
9 - Probe
0 - Nexus

So even though it's inconvenient to have Nexus at 0, I feel that I might as well get used to spanning the whole keyboard.


No need to hotkey the research buildings, leave 6 for your Nexus/CC is much better.

Offline JinDesu

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« Reply #185 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:29:55 »
Quote from: manfaux;297373
No need to hotkey the research buildings, leave 6 for your Nexus/CC is much better.


I prefer to have it hotkeyed so I can check on the progress; chronoboost really throws off my ability to judge the time correctly.

Also, it's nice to have all my research buildings on a hotkey so I don't actually have to run around the base clicking on them to get the research I want.
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #186 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:36:07 »
Quote from: Azuremen;297355

HuK still puts his Nexus on 0 because P use to be for Probe.

Most of the things pros do are old habits from BW, not because it is the most optimal way to anything. Same why many use classic hot keys instead of Grid, and so on.

I use Drag Scroll almost exclusively. It is faster than moving to edge scroll, more precise, lets me move outside of 8 degrees of motion, and I can max it and get across smaller maps without lifting my mouse. Further, I can instantly adjust what I am looking at without having to move my cursor at all. Edge scroll is cumbersome in my opinion, and I know several other capable players that agree.


Broodwar had drag scroll, no one used it.

Normal scheme and grid are purely preference, Grid setup is good at times but extremely prone to mistyping.

Offline manfaux

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« Reply #187 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:37:06 »
Quote from: JinDesu;297380
I prefer to have it hotkeyed so I can check on the progress; chronoboost really throws off my ability to judge the time correctly.

Also, it's nice to have all my research buildings on a hotkey so I don't actually have to run around the base clicking on them to get the research I want.


there is a progress bar right on the building dude

Offline JinDesu

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« Reply #188 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:43:23 »
Quote from: manfaux;297386
there is a progress bar right on the building dude


Well for one thing, if I'm used to judging the research completion by the time it took, then I wasn't looking at the building. I like to check on my research while I am not looking at my base.

Just like how I like to check on my production in my robobays/stargates while I am not looking at my base.
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #189 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:49:39 »
@guilleguillaume,
If grid works out best for you, then by all means go for it!  If you're just starting off with SC2, even better!  That way you'll already have the layouts ingrained starting out.

For players like Azuremen and I who have gotten used to playing on default for so long it would take a lot of effort to switch rather than keep something that we've been using for so long.

Quote from: Azuremen;297355
Most players beyond the "I have 2 or 3 builds I do every game" have a very solid understanding of why this or that works. They also have the mechanics to back their opinion, where as lower level players will complain about imbalance in units while they really are just reacting poorly and having poor composition.

But as a general rule of thumb, Plat players are missing something that Diamond and Master players have, and it isn't necessarily experience or raw mechanics. And thus their input on how the game works isn't as well rounded or thought out. It is similar to when Gold players attempt to argue this or that based on their experience.


For the majority of players in the lower leagues who do not understand the basic concepts of the game, I believe this to be true.  You can find these guys blabbing on the Blizzard forums about Protoss imba, Terran imba, and what not.

But given enough research, gameplay, and devotion to learning about the game you can come up with topics about the game itself to discuss freely without being ridiculed and/or sternly lectured from the higher level players.

The way I see it, the jump from bronze/silver/gold to platinum is merely learning a build order, sticking to it, and macroing well to the point where your army is bigger than his army.  (A poster on Reddit proved that by mere macro only (one huge ass ball of Blink Stalkers, IIRC) you can go from Bronze to Master from just constantly making pylons, probes, and units.)

When you get to platinum, that's when having game sense starts to kick in and you're forced to learn to change and adapt on the fly.  You start learning about units, timings, counters, scouting for tips as to what your opponent might tech to, etc. It's no longer about one unit versus one unit, it's about action and reaction along with who has the better game mechanics.

Once a basic understanding of all of that is done is right about the time you hit Diamond league.  You start to know and understand the game and can do it decently.

Just my opinion. :)

Quote from: JinDesu;297367
lol, I use 0 for my nexus. Anytime I need to make a probe, I have to do a nice stretch from 0 to e.

The reason I do it is because my hotkeys (and I'm forcing myself to keep to these hotkeys) are:

1,2,3 - Army/subarmies/casters
4 - Any new unit that I have to control separately for a reason/random pylon in the middle of nowhere
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Research building
7,8 - Observers
9 - Probe
0 - Nexus

So even though it's inconvenient to have Nexus at 0, I feel that I might as well get used to spanning the whole keyboard.


The cool thing about customizable hotkeys is you can set things up to your preference!  I prefer to keep everything on the left side of my keyboard so that I don't have to move my fingers very far.  Very easy to use for me :)

And if anyone cares...
1 Main army
2 Scout/observer/secondary army
3 Robo
4 Nexus
5 Stargate
6 Forge
7-0 Whatever is needed

F1 Main base/warpgates
F2 Forward pylon/second base
F3 Forward pylon/third base
F4 Forward pylon
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #190 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:54:02 »
Quote from: JinDesu;297391
Well for one thing, if I'm used to judging the research completion by the time it took, then I wasn't looking at the building. I like to check on my research while I am not looking at my base.

Just like how I like to check on my production in my robobays/stargates while I am not looking at my base.


I mapped 7,8,9 and 0 to F2~F5, you might want to try that, reaching for those numbers is such a PITA!

Offline JinDesu

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« Reply #191 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:55:07 »
I agree that the customizable hotkeys really assist in setting up the hotkeys, but I am so used to the standard keys in the beta, and I set up the control groups back then to maximize the information I can get and allow me to quickly control my army and production (1-6) that I just can't change it. I even use the same sorta control groups when I offrace as zerg and terran lol, it's even harder to reach S from 0 than it is to hit E from 0.

Curse you, muscle memory!

Quote from: manfaux;297399
I mapped 7,8,9 and 0 to F2~F5, you might want to try that, reaching for those numbers is such a PITA!

I agree it's a PITA, but I am so used to it because I had it from Beta. I use the Fkeys now for locations though, because that's a BW memory for me.
« Last Edit: Fri, 18 February 2011, 15:58:36 by JinDesu »
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #192 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 16:03:45 »
Quote from: sawedust;297397

And if anyone cares...
1 Main army
2 Scout/observer/secondary army
3 Robo
4 Nexus
5 Stargate
6 Forge
7-0 Whatever is needed

F1 Main base/warpgates
F2 Forward pylon/second base
F3 Forward pylon/third base
F4 Forward pylon


As you aren't likely to constantly produce units out of BOTH robo and stargate, it's better to leave one hotkey out for you combating units, I have 1~4 all for army and it's not nearly enough.

Offline JinDesu

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« Reply #193 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 16:11:11 »
I also like to tab between the stargate and robo if I actually have both out.

It's different with terran though, because I definitely need my starports and factories on different hotkeys, especially because of the addons.
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Offline wongster

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« Reply #194 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 16:18:30 »
I'm trying to get used to hotkeying research buildings. I think it's a more efficient way to check the progress of upgrades and not have idle research buildings.
« Last Edit: Fri, 18 February 2011, 16:22:14 by wongster »
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Offline manfaux

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« Reply #195 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 16:18:41 »
Quote from: JinDesu;297417
I also like to tab between the stargate and robo if I actually have both out.

It's different with terran though, because I definitely need my starports and factories on different hotkeys, especially because of the addons.


tab works. I play terran and I dont hotkey either factory or starport, just 4 for all my rax and that's it, every other control group is all armies.

If you look closely enough, there are still plenty of unused hotkeys to be customized, like Tilde and space. I use Tilde for Patrolling and Space for jumping between bases(what backspace did)

Offline JinDesu

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« Reply #196 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 16:21:44 »
i keep space for "ACTION IS HAPPENING HERE", but i agree with the tilde - i'll check through all the empty hotkeys to see what i can do with them
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Offline Azuremen

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« Reply #197 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 16:26:36 »
Quote from: manfaux;297384
Broodwar had drag scroll, no one used it.

Normal scheme and grid are purely preference, Grid setup is good at times but extremely prone to mistyping.


Yes and it was implemented so poorly it is no wonder no one used it. I can't use drag scroll in BW just because of how it works in BW. In SC2 is it much smoother and easier to control where it is going.
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Offline Crypt

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« Reply #198 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 17:10:46 »
Whoa, this thread really exploded with a lot of different topics.  Go SC2!  :)

"I don't agree with accuracy should be traded with speed. No matter how fast I box my units, if I can't box the right amount of units, I have failed."

What I meant is that you can trade pixel accuracy for speed without boxing the wrong amount of units.  For example, making a huge box for one unit is fine if there are no other units around *and* it allows you to do it faster than any other technique.

Re: Edge Scrolling:

The problem for me is let's say my mouse is at the center of the mousepad.  If I drag scroll to the right, my mouse will be to the right of my mousepad, but my cursor will still be in the center of the screen.  I'd have to lift up my mouse and plant it back in the middle of the screen.  I really try to avoid mouse lifting at all costs with optical/laser mice.  I like the feeling of knowing that when my mouse is physically centered, the cursor is always correspondingly centered on the screen.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #199 on: Fri, 18 February 2011, 18:47:46 »
Any thoughts about mapping Grid on the numpad?