My Filco Majestouch is here!!

[xsphat]

Well folks, we are down to two choises for keyboards for the rest of time - Cherry linear MX or membrane. I think I'll buy a pen.

[iMav]

BTW, great review (don't think I actually chimed in at all yet in this thread).

If I was forced to buy a full-sized cherry-equipped keyboard...I think I'd pick up a Scorpius M10 with the blue keyswitches.  I LOVE the feel of them in my SMK-88 (even though the key layout ends up being a deal-breaker for me).  And they can be had for around $40.

applet, you said that you believe this board to be well worth the (roughly) $100 it sells for locally in Japan.  Do the brown cherries (over the blues) and the fit and finish warrant the 60 extra dollars over the price of a M10?

[mr_sf_applet]

applet, you said that you believe this board to be well worth the (roughly) $100 it sells for locally in Japan.  Do the brown cherries (over the blues) and the fit and finish warrant the 60 extra dollars over the price of a M10?

Not sure how to anwser that. First, I don't have a Scorpius M10.  I mean, I know how the blue Cherry MX switches feel, since I have a Das Keyboard II, but I don't have first hand experience of the other aspects of the M10 to make a judgement. Second, even though I don't have an M10, I think it's a terrific deal to get a keyboard with clicky Cherry blues for 40 bucks. So that distorts any consideration of whether the Majestouch (at 11,800 JPY = around $106) is $60 or $66 better than the M10, since I think the M10 is undervalued at $40.

Two or three more things: I don't think of the brown Cherries as being better than the blues. I'm favoring the browns myself right now, but that's personal preference, and someone else may like the clicky blues much more. So for the purposes of comparison, I would call it a wash between the brown and the blue Cherries.

Also, I got the Majestouch with the N-key rollover feature. It may be fairer to compare the Scorpius M10 to the basic Majestouch model instead. The basic model with brown or black Cherry switches costs 9,450 JPY (or around $85), and the basic model with the blue clicky Cherries (just introduced, I believe, and not yet available with English layout) costs 9,800 JPY (or around $88). So then the question becomes: Is the Majestouch $48 better than the M10 in quality of fit and finish (putting aside the issue of brown vs. black Cherry switches). And again, I don't really know since I've never touched an M10.

I have touched Das Keyboard II, though, which is $79. Is the Majestouch, at the equivalent of $88 USD, nine dollars better in quality of fit and finish than Das Keyboard II? Most definitely. I think it's better by a larger margin than that.

In absolute terms, would I pay $88 dollars for a basic Majestouch with clicky blue Cherries or the soft-tactile brown Cherries? In a heartbeat.


(All this is of course presuming I'm a rational consumer, and ignoring the fact that I willingly paid a lot more than that after commissions and shipping for my Majestouch, both to feed my keyboard habit and to satisfy my curiosity about brown Cherry MX switches.)

[zillidot]

mr_sf_applet, a slightly off-topic question: do you know if Das Keyboard II has n-key rollover? (You can test by holding down the keys ERXC simultaneously and see if they all register.)

[xsphat]

mr_sf_applet, a slightly off-topic question: do you know if Das Keyboard II has n-key rollover? (You can test by holding down the keys ERXC simultaneously and see if they all register.)

That isn't totally right. On my HHKB Pro 2, I can touch any six keys and they all register. mr_sf_applet said that is the max for USB, and I believe him.

[zillidot]

mr_sf_applet, a slightly off-topic question: do you know if Das Keyboard II has n-key rollover? (You can test by holding down the keys ERXC simultaneously and see if they all register.)

That isn't totally right. On my HHKB Pro 2, I can touch any six keys and they all register. mr_sf_applet said that is the max for USB, and I believe him.

Maybe I should have said 6-key rollover then. In any case, ERXC is only 4 keys, but none of my keyboards can register all 4 of them simultaneously.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

Well folks, we are down to two choises for keyboards for the rest of time - Cherry linear MX or membrane. I think I'll buy a pen.

For me it's the Topre Realforce - the space saver one.

[karlito]

I've never heard of this key limitation on USB... I find it hard to believe holding down more than 6 keys could saturate a 12Mbit/s pipe.  This is almost certainly false and especially for USB 2.0 which has a 480 Mbit/s pipe (that's over 4 times faster than your network card FYI).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb

I did a little digging... I only found one site that says it's part of the USB keyboard HID specification but the spec was too confusing for me to figure out. I'm guessing any keyboard manufacturer could just install their own drivers and get passed this USB 1.0 specification if it actually does exist.

[karlito]

key press output from logitech g15 b4 drivers (im pressing a,s,d,f,j,k,l,;) so eight keys should register down then up:
41  01E       d   2.03   A                 
53  01F       d   0.03   S                 
44  020       d   0.02   D                 
46  021       d   0.06   F                 
4A  024       d   0.06   J                 
4B  025       d   0.09   K                 
41  01E       u   0.80   A                 
53  01F       u   0.00   S                 
44  020       u   0.00   D                 
46  021       u   0.00   F                 
4A  024       u   0.16   J                 
4B  025       u   0.11   K              

so it does stop at 6.

installed logitech drivers.... same results
41  01E       d   2.30   A                 
53  01F       d   0.05   S                 
44  020       d   0.03   D                 
46  021       d   0.05   F                 
4A  024       d   0.13   J                 
4B  025       d   0.06   K                 
41  01E       u   0.61   A                 
53  01F       u   0.00   S                 
44  020       u   0.00   D                 
46  021       u   0.00   F                 
4A  024       u   0.14   J                 
4B  025       u   0.13   K                 

tried logitechs macro tool:



it stopped at K too! HOW LAME IS THAT!

this is weird, if u hold down shift it can register up to 8 keys:


So I dont know who's at fault now! lol

[xsphat]

For me it's the Topre Realforce - the space saver one.

Yeah, find one in a US layout, the only Realforce I have found lately is the 101 key model for about $180 in Japan.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

For me it's the Topre Realforce - the space saver one.

Yeah, find one in a US layout, the only Realforce I have found lately is the 101 key model for about $180 in Japan.

I don't look at the keys anyway.  I assume I'll have no trouble remapping them.  But the space-saver is an eye-watering $280 in Japan I believe.  I want the same keyswitches as the HHKP2, but not the HHKP2.

[zillidot]

I did a little digging... I only found one site that says it's part of the USB keyboard HID specification but the spec was too confusing for me to figure out. I'm guessing any keyboard manufacturer could just install their own drivers and get passed this USB 1.0 specification if it actually does exist.

I believe this document contains the spec in question: http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/HID1_11.pdf
On page 60 there's a table that seems to show the default format of the keyboard input report. Notice that it only has space for 6 keycodes, plus modifier keys. I think that's where the limitation comes from. It looks like manufacturers can provide their own drivers to get around the limitation. But that wouldn't really help people (like me) who need to use the same keyboard on Windows, Mac and Linux as well as have it work with a KVM!

Anyway, the problem I'm more concerned with is the key ghosting/masking problem. This webpage gives a good explanation of the problem: http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/one_html/

To summarise, because of the way keyboards are wired in a X-Y matrix, it is impossible for the keyboard to distinguish between certain key combinations. This only happens when keys on different rows are pressed simultaneously. (This means ERXC triggers the problem, but ASDFJK does not.) The solution (as described in the link) is to include a diode on every key. But there are very few keyboards that have this. The more expensive version of the Filco Majestouch does. I believe the Logitech G15 and the HHKB Pro 2 have it as well.

I suspect the Scorpius M10 doesn't have it. Not sure about Das Keyboard II either. It would be good if someone can test those two keyboards.

[xsphat]

I want the same keyswitches as the HHKP2, but not the HHKP2.

What's wrong with the HHKB Pro 2? I've talked to people that say the Realforce 'boards feel better than the HHKB, but that is hearsay through a language barrier, so take it with a grain of salt.

I think the HHKB Pro 2 is the best all around keyboard out there, and has been for years. As iMav said, he doesn't know anyone who has one and doesn't like it. If I can't find a good keyboard to buy before I get my school money in Feb, I am going to buy a second one for a backup.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

I'm really used to the navigation cluster (the keys between the main keys and the numpad). The numpad is useless to me, so the space-saver layout would be just perfect.  Also, I don't like how the Fn key and the cursor keys are on both on the right side on the Pro.

[mr_sf_applet]

To summarise, because of the way keyboards are wired in a X-Y matrix, it is impossible for the keyboard to distinguish between certain key combinations. This only happens when keys on different rows are pressed simultaneously. (This means ERXC triggers the problem, but ASDFJK does not.) The solution (as described in the link) is to include a diode on every key. But there are very few keyboards that have this. The more expensive version of the Filco Majestouch does. I believe the Logitech G15 and the HHKB Pro 2 have it as well.

I suspect the Scorpius M10 doesn't have it. Not sure about Das Keyboard II either. It would be good if someone can test those two keyboards.

These are my attempts to press ERXC simultaneously -- 10 times -- on Das Keyboard II:

cx
cx
cx
xc
cx
cx
cx
cxr
cx
cxr

For the HHKB Pro 2:

xcre
cxre
recx
xcre
crex
xcre
ecrx
xcre
crex
rcex

For the Filco Majestouch w/ N-key rollover:

cxre
cxre
cxer
rcxe
cxer
rcxe
cxer
cxer
cxer
cxer

[zillidot]

These are my attempts to press ERXC simultaneously

Thanks for the info! So, that means Das Keyboard II does NOT have n-key (6-key) rollover, but the other two keyboards probably do. I guess I can strike Das Keyboard II off my shopping list now.

[xsphat]

Down with DAS!

[iMav]

Notice that it only has space for 6 keycodes, plus modifier keys.

a;sdkjlf
a;dfkjls
a;sdfkjl
a;kjlsdf
akj;lsdf
a;dkjlsf
asdfkj;l
kj;lsadf

If it's a USB spec limitation, then why is it I can do THAT???  

[zillidot]

If it's a USB spec limitation, then why is it I can do THAT???  

Hmm, I have no idea

BTW, I thought there'd be more Dvorak users around here. My home keys are AOEUHTNS

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

If it's a USB spec limitation, then why is it I can do THAT???  

Hmm, I have no idea

BTW, I thought there'd be more Dvorak users around here. My home keys are AOEUHTNS

When did you switch? Is it worth it?

[xsphat]

I tried Dvorak but I work on computers at my job and no workplace uses that layout exclusively and I never figured out how switch it on Windows, so I gave up. Plus I didn't get very good at it.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

I tried Dvorak but I work on computers at my job and no workplace uses that layout exclusively and I never figured out how switch it on Windows, so I gave up. Plus I didn't get very good at it.

IMO, you would be the perfect candidate for it, since you write a lot of prose.  For writing code, which has lots of punctuation, I don't think it makes all that much difference.  For programming, I think this layout has more potential.  It uses the space bar as an extra modiefer, and moves all the punctuation closer to the home row.  BTW, have you tried the Colemak layout?

[iMav]

BTW, I thought there'd be more Dvorak users around here. My home keys are AOEUHTNS

I actually spent a month using Dvorak almost exclusively.  As Whiskey mentioned, it is pretty great if you write a lot of WORDS.  The reason I switched back is simply because I LIKE typing QWERTY.  I have no hand cramping issues, my speed is quite good, and I'm simply comfortable with it.

[zillidot]

When did you switch? Is it worth it?

I started using Dvorak sometime in high school, which was ... something like 8 or 9 years ago. Took me a few weeks to get used to it at first. Today I type faster on Dvorak, but that's just because I've been using it for so long. I don't think there's any inherent speed difference between the two layouts.

I find Dvorak more comfortable compared to qwerty. On qwerty my fingers feel like they're flying all over the keyboard, whereas on Dvorak I don't need to move around so much. So I guess it depends on what you prefer...

[xsphat]

I have to go with iMav on this one; I like typing on qwerty. I like having my fingers fly all over the 'board and I like the layout. I haven't had any pains in my arms since I started exclusively using mechanical 'boards, so I have no reason to switch. I have a couple friends who use Dvorak, I don't mess with them about it, but they are elitists about it, and they call me an elitist for buying Macs ...

[iMav]

FYI.

I added this review to the new wiki.

You can check out all the reviews we have posted so far here.