To new camera or not to new camera...

[GL1TCH3D]

Prime lenses are the best for quality.

I'm hoping to move to the new Sony A7 body and get some other nice primes

The Sony A7 is no joke. I just...Sony...I just can't.

I've had good experiences with some of sony's stuff. They tend to be hit or miss with some products but the Sony A7 is definitely a hit.

I never thought I would see the day when real pro's would abandon SLR in favor of mirrorless. In fact, I never even considered it as a possibility. But leave it to Sony, they've always been the pioneers in digital imaging.

The really nice thing about the A7 is that they seem to be really good with non-Sony lens support, which is something decidedly un-Sonylike.

Sony has made some really interesting headphones in the past. Unfortunately their current line up pretty much sucks. They can do some things really well but other things are meh.

I think the killer about the A7 is the size convenience along with the full frame sensor. I know that the lenses can make up a lot of the bulk when travelling but a nice slim Sony A7 with a couple of lenses is a lot more doable than let's say the Canon 5d

[njbair]

I think the killer about the A7 is the size convenience along with the full frame sensor. I know that the lenses can make up a lot of the bulk when travelling but a nice slim Sony A7 with a couple of lenses is a lot more doable than let's say the Canon 5d

Show Image

Wow, I knew it was smaller but I didn't realize how much smaller it really is.

Won't be long now before cameras are just little discs with some buttons around the edge and an optional "full body" grip attachment.

[demik]

<3 my a6k

[VoteForDavid]

There's more to cameras than sensor size.  As an SLR shooter who got tired of not seeing images in the EVF in bright light, I don't think I'm going to be shooting a point-and-shoot anytime soon.  And that includes the sony alpha line and all the 4/3 crowd.

Plus a few other words I wrote about this, before: https://votefordavid.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/dont-be-a-dummy-dont-buy-an-evil-camera/

[tbc]

I think the killer about the A7 is the size convenience along with the full frame sensor. I know that the lenses can make up a lot of the bulk when travelling but a nice slim Sony A7 with a couple of lenses is a lot more doable than let's say the Canon 5d

Show Image

Wow, I knew it was smaller but I didn't realize how much smaller it really is.

Won't be long now before cameras are just little discs with some buttons around the edge and an optional "full body" grip attachment.

last year for the record

http://store.sony.com/interchangeable-lens-style-camera-zid27-ILCEQX1/B/cat-27-catid-All-Cyber-shot-Q-Series-Cameras

[Lain1911]

So part of me really wants a new camera.  I'm still using a D70 I got before going to college, so it's something like 10 years old with tens of thousands of shutter actuations. 

I stopped there. If you have tens of thousands of pictures taken in ten years that means you qualify for a new camera, because you use it enough.

[njbair]

There's more to cameras than sensor size.  As an SLR shooter who got tired of not seeing images in the EVF in bright light, I don't think I'm going to be shooting a point-and-shoot anytime soon.  And that includes the sony alpha line and all the 4/3 crowd.

Plus a few other words I wrote about this, before: https://votefordavid.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/dont-be-a-dummy-dont-buy-an-evil-camera/

I get what you're saying, but it's not really fair to call the A7 a point-and-shoot. SLR really only refers to the shutter mechanism, but it also traditionally delineates a lot of other high-end features (sensor quality, better software, interchangeable lenses, overall build quality, etc.). Because people willing to spend on an SLR were the same people who wanted those features. By calling it a mirrorless camera instead of a point-and-shoot, you're basically saying it's an SLR in the product marketing sense, just not in the literal sense. But even the eyepiece EVF is supposed to be pretty decent. I wouldn't dismiss it, even though the Sony brand just rubs me the wrong way.

[VoteForDavid]

Nikon has a recent point-and-shoot with a lens that will zoom in and you can exchange obscene gestures with the man on the Moon.  And?  Sony has an EVIL camera with an APS-C sized sensor.  And?  I fail to see the superiority, but then my ideal camera is a D4-series until they come out with a D5.  I deride the entire genre, on principle - but it would be silly not to acknowledge they are decent cameras, for what they are.

From my linked article: "If you like automatic transmissions in your cars, pay with the EZ-pass on your keychain, and like compact fluorescent bulbs – AND you want to be able to change out your camera lenses, then the EVIL is perfect for you. . . . The fact of the matter is, for most people, image quality is going to be about the same, regardless of what kind of camera they buy." 

[jamster]

If photos are important to you, get a camera. Good images should last you the rest of your life. Keyboards in all probability will not.

I ran a Canon 30D for absolutely ages (same era as a D70, iirc). Enthusiast friends kept telling to to upgrade as sensor tech had moved on, but I ignored them.

A year or two ago I bought a Canon SL1 because it's super small and comfortable to hold. I don't care about the body, it just sits at the back of my primes and L zooms. So it was either the smallest body, or go the other way with a full frame sensor for low light performance and a stupidly heavy body. Even on the SL1, the sensor quality really is noticeably better than on the old 30D, despite the new one being Canon's lowest-end DSLR.

I travel a lot and use photos to trigger old memories, so a good camera is important. I have kept 22,000 images, taken digitally and converted from slides. I've taken a *lot* more as my keep rate from is under well under 10%.

[nubbinator]

Now I'm even more torn with this refurbished deal:  http://www.adorama.com/INKD5300BK1R.html

I was really leaning toward a refurbed D7100, but this deal makes it tougher to choose.

How quickly did you adjust to the controls Binge?  Any quibbles with the camera?  I'm really used to the discrete aperture and SS controls and prefer a camera with an onboard lens motor, but it's almost $150 cheaper than most refurbs I've seen and it comes with a lens.

[HoffmanMyster]

Now I'm even more torn with this refurbished deal:  http://www.adorama.com/INKD5300BK1R.html

I was really leaning toward a refurbed D7100, but this deal makes it tougher to choose.

How quickly did you adjust to the controls Binge?  Any quibbles with the camera?  I'm really used to the discrete aperture and SS controls and prefer a camera with an onboard lens motor, but it's almost $150 cheaper than most refurbs I've seen and it comes with a lens.

That's my main beef with mirrorless (the lack of discrete aperture and SS controls) so that would probably bug me.  :-/  That is a good deal though...

[Spopepro]

It's always easy to spend other people's money, but as a fellow D70s owner, I fully understand your strong desire to upgrade (I hate saying need when it's just stuff).  I went through nearly the same search a while ago and ended up getting this:

OK, that probably doesn't help.  But in all honesty, I ended up deciding that if I wasn't going to buy a FX sensor body, it probably wasn't really worth it.  I got a F3 body for pennies, then the rollei and have done nothing but shoot film.  Granted, I'm helped by having a studio that does group-darkroom membership.

Which has absolutely worked out better for me considering that nature and street photography is 99% of what I tend to do.

Which is the *actual* point that I'm going to.  I think you mentioned that you shoot surf competitions.  Sports stuff needs big glass and the bigger sensor the better.  If the D70 wasn't dead, I'd say wait until the funds existed for a d600, or even take a flyer on a well cared for D2x.  Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure that the other options will actually feel like an upgrade.  Sure, they will have more features (but probably most will be unused), and the sensors and software are better, but not massively so.  It's a tough call at that point, which is probably why you keep going back and forth.

Oh, and film... so you have been out-hipstered.

[nubbinator]

Only out-hipstered by the camera you use.  I still like to do cross-process film sometimes.

[Spopepro]

 
Those are very good.  I've been wanting to do some, but just the fact of needing gloves and a quality respirator for developing color has kept me away.  For now. 

[heedpantsnow]

Now I'm even more torn with this refurbished deal:  http://www.adorama.com/INKD5300BK1R.html

I was really leaning toward a refurbed D7100, but this deal makes it tougher to choose.

How quickly did you adjust to the controls Binge?  Any quibbles with the camera?  I'm really used to the discrete aperture and SS controls and prefer a camera with an onboard lens motor, but it's almost $150 cheaper than most refurbs I've seen and it comes with a lens.

That's my main beef with mirrorless (the lack of discrete aperture and SS controls) so that would probably bug me.  :-/  That is a good deal though...

What do you mean by "lack of discrete aperture and SS controls"?  My Oly E-M5 and E-P3 both have them, as well as most other higher-end Olys and Pannys. And the Sony mirrorless models have them too I think...

[HoffmanMyster]

Now I'm even more torn with this refurbished deal:  http://www.adorama.com/INKD5300BK1R.html

I was really leaning toward a refurbed D7100, but this deal makes it tougher to choose.

How quickly did you adjust to the controls Binge?  Any quibbles with the camera?  I'm really used to the discrete aperture and SS controls and prefer a camera with an onboard lens motor, but it's almost $150 cheaper than most refurbs I've seen and it comes with a lens.

That's my main beef with mirrorless (the lack of discrete aperture and SS controls) so that would probably bug me.  :-/  That is a good deal though...

What do you mean by "lack of discrete aperture and SS controls"?  My Oly E-M5 and E-P3 both have them, as well as most other higher-end Olys and Pannys. And the Sony mirrorless models have them too I think...

Perhaps my sweeping generalization of "mirrorless" was a bit too sweeping.  My NEX-F3 has one dial on the back that controls both aperture and SS, toggled by a push button.  I just don't like that.    I much prefer controlling aperture with a lens dial, but that doesn't seem to be a thing in the digital world.   

[Binge]

Now I'm even more torn with this refurbished deal:  http://www.adorama.com/INKD5300BK1R.html

I was really leaning toward a refurbed D7100, but this deal makes it tougher to choose.

How quickly did you adjust to the controls Binge?  Any quibbles with the camera?  I'm really used to the discrete aperture and SS controls and prefer a camera with an onboard lens motor, but it's almost $150 cheaper than most refurbs I've seen and it comes with a lens.

That's my main beef with mirrorless (the lack of discrete aperture and SS controls) so that would probably bug me.  :-/  That is a good deal though...

What do you mean by "lack of discrete aperture and SS controls"?  My Oly E-M5 and E-P3 both have them, as well as most other higher-end Olys and Pannys. And the Sony mirrorless models have them too I think...

Perhaps my sweeping generalization of "mirrorless" was a bit too sweeping.  My NEX-F3 has one dial on the back that controls both aperture and SS, toggled by a push button.  I just don't like that.    I much prefer controlling aperture with a lens dial, but that doesn't seem to be a thing in the digital world.   

More smooth but overrated.  Just like your pancakes.

Now I'm even more torn with this refurbished deal:  http://www.adorama.com/INKD5300BK1R.html

I was really leaning toward a refurbed D7100, but this deal makes it tougher to choose.

How quickly did you adjust to the controls Binge?  Any quibbles with the camera?  I'm really used to the discrete aperture and SS controls and prefer a camera with an onboard lens motor, but it's almost $150 cheaper than most refurbs I've seen and it comes with a lens.

Hey man I'm sorry about not responding yesterday.  I've sent you a PM but I'll respond here as well.  First, I totally understand the want for a lense motor.  The old Nikons that my father has let me have from my grandfather's collection are a little more work, but I am able to take fine photos quickly and locate my focus easily with assistance from the live-view and other settings which make this camera a joy to use.

The wheel for manual mode can be adjusted to change between shutter/aperture/ISO and a few other settings very easily.  I have a couple basic and "inexpensive" lenses suited for the DX formfactor of the camera which autofocus very quickly and quietly for use in video and prime shooting.  Coming from a Canon 20D this was a dream in terms of use.  I had the camera for less than an hour before I felt comfortable adjusting the settings on the fly and the image quality in low-light was superb.  I can hop around about 1600 ISO all day and not even feel like I'm doing something naughty.  The better the light the easier it gets to take the right photo the first shot which is a great feeling...

I wish I could easily and quickly send you mine or that it wasn't under so much use.  My wife takes a lot of live photography with our birds and I am getting my feet wet with the very basics of photography, so contextually these shots we take are mostly for utility, but I'm sure that it can create beautiful shots with the right know-how/experience.  We commonly take photos like these,

[HoffmanMyster]

Now I'm even more torn with this refurbished deal:  http://www.adorama.com/INKD5300BK1R.html

I was really leaning toward a refurbed D7100, but this deal makes it tougher to choose.

How quickly did you adjust to the controls Binge?  Any quibbles with the camera?  I'm really used to the discrete aperture and SS controls and prefer a camera with an onboard lens motor, but it's almost $150 cheaper than most refurbs I've seen and it comes with a lens.

That's my main beef with mirrorless (the lack of discrete aperture and SS controls) so that would probably bug me.  :-/  That is a good deal though...

What do you mean by "lack of discrete aperture and SS controls"?  My Oly E-M5 and E-P3 both have them, as well as most other higher-end Olys and Pannys. And the Sony mirrorless models have them too I think...

Perhaps my sweeping generalization of "mirrorless" was a bit too sweeping.  My NEX-F3 has one dial on the back that controls both aperture and SS, toggled by a push button.  I just don't like that.    I much prefer controlling aperture with a lens dial, but that doesn't seem to be a thing in the digital world.   

More smooth but overrated.  Just like your pancakes.

 

[heedpantsnow]

Now I'm even more torn with this refurbished deal:  http://www.adorama.com/INKD5300BK1R.html

I was really leaning toward a refurbed D7100, but this deal makes it tougher to choose.

How quickly did you adjust to the controls Binge?  Any quibbles with the camera?  I'm really used to the discrete aperture and SS controls and prefer a camera with an onboard lens motor, but it's almost $150 cheaper than most refurbs I've seen and it comes with a lens.

That's my main beef with mirrorless (the lack of discrete aperture and SS controls) so that would probably bug me.  :-/  That is a good deal though...

What do you mean by "lack of discrete aperture and SS controls"?  My Oly E-M5 and E-P3 both have them, as well as most other higher-end Olys and Pannys. And the Sony mirrorless models have them too I think...

Perhaps my sweeping generalization of "mirrorless" was a bit too sweeping.  My NEX-F3 has one dial on the back that controls both aperture and SS, toggled by a push button.  I just don't like that.    I much prefer controlling aperture with a lens dial, but that doesn't seem to be a thing in the digital world.   

Ah ok. I have a trio of Hexanons with aperture on the lens, quite nice. But these days I'm lazy and just use the front dial on the body for aperture and rear dial for SS. Then 4 way buttons are drive mode, ISO, etc.

Edit: and I just remembered my Nocticron had aperture on the lens as well.

I can't remember for sure, but I think the original reason why I hated Nikon was because their lens dials went backwards?  Does anyone else know what I'm talking about?

[nubbinator]

I just played with a D5300 and D7100 and the choice is even tougher.  The 7100 has a better layout, more intuitive controls, built in lens motor, bigger viewfinder, and easily navigated menu.  The D5300 feels comfortable and takes a little more work to make adjustments, but isn't too hard to do though it is a little clunky.  The viewfinder is just as bright, the options are all pretty much there and, while slower, can still be adjusted pretty easily on the fly.

[Binge]

I just played with a D5300 and D7100 and the choice is even tougher.  The 7100 has a better layout, more intuitive controls, built in lens motor, bigger viewfinder, and easily navigated menu.  The D5300 feels comfortable and takes a little more work to make adjustments, but isn't too hard to do though it is a little clunky.  The viewfinder is just as bright, the options are all pretty much there and, while slower, can still be adjusted pretty easily on the fly.

Good to know you got to play with one.  Hopefully I wasn't over exaggerating at all... it's such a huge improvement from the 20D I used to use.

[nubbinator]

Yeah, I can definitely see how you could get used to it.  The D7100 felt more natural, but the size and weight of the D5300 definitely was a bit nicer too.  I'm still on the fence.  I know the D7100 has a bunch of features I probably wouldn't use, but at the same time, I feel more comfortable with it.  The D5300 is a much better deal and offers everything I really need.  The lens motor, bigger viewfinder, extra dial, and weather sealing are more wants than needs.

[heedpantsnow]

Yeah, I can definitely see how you could get used to it.  The D7100 felt more natural, but the size and weight of the D5300 definitely was a bit nicer too.  I'm still on the fence.  I know the D7100 has a bunch of features I probably wouldn't use, but at the same time, I feel more comfortable with it.  The D5300 is a much better deal and offers everything I really need.  The lens motor, bigger viewfinder, extra dial, and weather sealing are more wants than needs.

If it was me I would pay a bit for the extra ergonomics.

[Spopepro]

Yeah, that extra dial might not be just a nice thing to have.  Depending on what you're shooting (again, you mentioned sporting events), not having to go through soft menus is worth a ton to me.  Like worth so much I wouldn't consider a body where a critical adjustment I potentially would need to make was in a soft-menu.

[heedpantsnow]

Yeah, that extra dial might not be just a nice thing to have.  Depending on what you're shooting (again, you mentioned sporting events), not having to go through soft menus is worth a ton to me.  Like worth so much I wouldn't consider a body where a critical adjustment I potentially would need to make was in a soft-menu.

Absolutely. 2 dials +discrete buttons for drive and ISO is a minimum for me.

[njbair]

Yeah, I can definitely see how you could get used to it.  The D7100 felt more natural, but the size and weight of the D5300 definitely was a bit nicer too.  I'm still on the fence.  I know the D7100 has a bunch of features I probably wouldn't use, but at the same time, I feel more comfortable with it.  The D5300 is a much better deal and offers everything I really need.  The lens motor, bigger viewfinder, extra dial, and weather sealing are more wants than needs.

FWIW, don't count the lens into the equation. That 18-55mm kit lens is just that, a kit lens.

[VoteForDavid]

People who have become accustomed to 2 dials, used them a bunch . . . it just sucks having to push a button and simultaneously twirl the dial.  I'd rather have an old camera than a one-dial camera.  One big D7x00 upgrade over the D70 is related: to zoom in, you push the zoom button.  No more D100-era push, push-and-twirl to zoom.  Very nice.

The 18-50 is a kit lens that makes unreasonably good pictures until dropped once.  Then it's scrap but hey at least it's cheap.

The lens that stays on my camera is the 50mm f/1.8D.  It's a great compromise between too close (the 35mm 1.8 is great for indoors) and not close enough (an 80 or 105mm would be great for outdoors).  And there is no beating a <$100 razor-sharp lens you don't have to worry about, that can take pictures in the dark.  The D version requires a focus motor.  The newer one lacks an aperture dial AND costs twice as much for slightly more distortion.  At D7000/7100 resolution, old glass with focus screws is still plenty good enough, and it's getting cheaper the older it gets.

Save a little longer and get the body you want, says the guy whose money it isn't.

[nubbinator]

Well, I have the 50mm f/1.8D and the 18-70mm DX kit lens from my D70 is still a pretty solid lens.  Not an amazing lens, but not bad either.

[njbair]

The lens that stays on my camera is the 50mm f/1.8D.

+1 for prime lenses. The 35mm is so super fast and sharp that it may have ruined all other lenses for me.

[heedpantsnow]

The lens that stays on my camera is the 50mm f/1.8D.

+1 for prime lenses. The 35mm is so super fast and sharp that it may have ruined all other lenses for me.

Me too. I don't ever use my kit zoom, I prefer my 7.5, 25, 45, 55, & 135 primes. And all of those, together, take up the same amount of space as my 2x Canon L zooms did.

[VoteForDavid]

If you have the 50mm 1.8D and 18-70, you're pretty well set until your budget affords a MUCH better set of lenses.  Unless you get a body without a focusing motor for the 50.


I use a 35mm 1.8 at work all day and it is a very, very easy lens to get used to - especially when I have to go shoot in the warehouse!

[njbair]

Lucky for me, a photographer friend warned me about the kit lens and instead advised me to buy the body only and the 35mm 1.8. So as of right now I literally cannot zoom, but I hardly miss it in light of the photo quality.

[nubbinator]

Lucky for me, a photographer friend warned me about the kit lens and instead advised me to buy the body only and the 35mm 1.8. So as of right now I literally cannot zoom, but I hardly miss it in light of the photo quality.

Primes are fun because they force you to think and move.  I found that my photography dramatically improved when I forced myself to only use a prime. In fact, many of my favorite shots were done with a prime.

[njbair]

Primes are fun because they force you to think and move.

Exactly this! There is almost always a better angle than the zoomed in one. You just need the motivation to look for it.

[Binge]

Yeah, that extra dial might not be just a nice thing to have.  Depending on what you're shooting (again, you mentioned sporting events), not having to go through soft menus is worth a ton to me.  Like worth so much I wouldn't consider a body where a critical adjustment I potentially would need to make was in a soft-menu.

I have not encountered a need to use soft menus in full manual mode on the D5300.  Complete control with one dial.

[VoteForDavid]

Complete control with one dial and a modifier button you sometimes have to look away from the shot to use.

FTFY

[Binge]

FTFY

You did no such thing.  You can't use a single dial to adjust 3+ settings so of course there would be modifiers to adjust the function of the dial.  All settings adjustable by the dial are visible through the viewfinder when the modifier is pressed.

[tbc]

Or you know...

Evfs that show you your menus and allow chimping in your viewfinder?  So you never lose your framing/positioning no matter what body you use

[VoteForDavid]

Sometimes I will take a shot on automatic exposure to get a close/baseline for the settings but usually that's followed up by going right back to manual control.  Exactly 99.37% of the time I control my camera by using one dial for aperture and one dial for shutter speed.  That puts it at (approximatly) 47.59% of the time when I would have to reach to the top of the camera to find one of three buttons (in the case of the D5300), to adjust whichever doesn't have a dedicated dial on a one-dial body.   The shooting grip has to be changed, which is a risk to framing the shot, even if you are good enough to hit the proper button every time.

Or you could just get a dedicated dial for each of the two most frequently-used settings.

The other 0.63% of the time I am changing a setting, it's either ISO or white balance . . . both of which have dedicated buttons that are adjusted with a dial, neither of which require diving into menus.  For more-direct controls alone, it might be worth it for a getting-serious photographer to buy the 7x00 series instead of the D3x00 or D5x00 series.

tbc, a teensy EVF is not going to show you depth of field as well as a 3" one . . . and the 3" one on the back won't show you jack in bright sunlight.  All cameras fall down in some areas.  Speaking strictly for myself, I prefer one that doesn't fall down in the area of having dedicated aperture and speed controls, or optical viewfinding.   

Optical viewfinders save a lot of battery power, by the way.  Once when I had brand-spanking new batteries I went through no-**** about 3000 frames when shooting a fight night and I only changed the battery out because I was getting nervous about the potential for the next bout to go long.  I usually change batteries out around 1000 shots, because I don't like looking at a battery indicator that's not "full" on the LCD.  Cameras with EVFs tend to be a decimal place shy in this department (which is perfectly okay if you don't intend to make thousands of exposures in a single session).

[madhias]

[...]bigger viewfinder[...]

Very good, bigger viewfinders are always better!

Primes are fun because they force you to think and move.

Exactly this! There is almost always a better angle than the zoomed in one. You just need the motivation to look for it.

I also do think that primes are much more fun to use, you are forced to walk around, and have to try to find the perfect frame. I only have two lenses, a 35mm - which is the lens I always have on the cam - and a 100mm macro.

[tbc]

tbc, a teensy EVF is not going to show you depth of field as well as a 3" one . . . and the 3" one on the back won't show you jack in bright sunlight.  All cameras fall down in some areas. 

thats why you can use focus peaking + focus magnification

[nubbinator]

Welp, finally bit on a refurbished Nikon D7100.  Definitely hurt to drop the money, but looking forward to it.

[TastaturenAuslese]

Welp, finally bit on a refurbished Nikon D7100.  Definitely hurt to drop the money, but looking forward to it.

Was just about to chime in on some advice and stuff, but congrats! Take pics of your new camera when you get it. Haha.

[HoffmanMyster]

Welp, finally bit on a refurbished Nikon D7100.  Definitely hurt to drop the money, but looking forward to it.

Congrats!    We expect some nice new pics to hit the 'hack soon.   

[Sed8op8]

Welp, finally bit on a refurbished Nikon D7100.  Definitely hurt to drop the money, but looking forward to it.

NICE I'm sure the extra money hurt but unlike A LOT of people who make knee jerk purchases (like me) it sounds like you put a lot of thought into this and what features to $$ different models had etc....

I am super excited as this decision actually affected me considering how much you contribute here ! Haha for me that's the best money you have spent I love your photos. Last night i was doing searches for Nubbinator keycaps and was looking at a lot of your photos and you have some really great shots  ) I'm super excited !!!

[Binge]

Welp, finally bit on a refurbished Nikon D7100.  Definitely hurt to drop the money, but looking forward to it.

Glad you got what made you the most comfortable and you got a good deal!  I hope it works well.

[njbair]

Welp, finally bit on a refurbished Nikon D7100.  Definitely hurt to drop the money, but looking forward to it.

#DXMasterRace