The word on Saitek keyboards(?) n-key rollover

[pex]

I'm not sure why this information is so painful to get, especially when the Saitek website heralds such things as "Saitek leads the world with high performance products for PC gamers and stunningly designed peripherals for all PC users."

     > Subject: Saitek keyboards rollover
      > Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 23:30:55 -0500
      >
      > Saitek, please pleasantly surprise me.
      >
      > Rollover is a commonly disregarded feature by keyboard engineers and
      > manufacturers most likely for the sake of speed to-market/of-manufacture,
      > revenue, and profit. Rollover, however, can have a major effect on the
      > productivity of an enduser.
      >
      > I (generally) define rollover as a the situation where any least number of
      > keys can be pressed and registered by the computer (example: let's say I
      > press "sdfjkl" and it shows up in my text editor, but "fgvb" won't (maybe my
      > computer beeps to let me know...). We know the keyboard can't exceed
      > 3-key-rollover in certain situations.
      >
      > "n-key rollover", then, is the expectation we can put a book on our keyboard
      > and have everything (or anything) register. I know there are sometimes
      > protocol limitations that are the bottleneck, and not the keyboard (like the
      > 6-key issue with USB), but keyboards can use tools like diodes and buffers
      > to realize all the "simultaneous" keypresses.
      >
      > Could you tell me what models of keyboard you offer that feature full n-key
      > rollover? If none, could you tell me what model(s) offer the greatest
      > rollover, and what their rollover key-count is?
      >
      > The many matricies of today's membranes dissatisfy me. =(

 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:07:31 +0000
    From: techsupport@saitek.com
    To:
    Subject: Re: FW: Saitek keyboards rollover

    Hi,

    I am afraid the maximum outputs out keyboards will do is 5.

    *Please include all emails in your reply, this will speed up the response time*
    ___________________________

    Daniel Nuth
    Consumer Liaison Technician
    techsupport@saitek.com

 I appreciate the response but I am not sure that it satisfies my inquiry.  I am looking to know the smallest number of keys, of all the combination of keys, I can press and get blocked.  

  Such that, if you're telling me I cannot exceed 5 keys with any combination...and we'll pretend I can press "qwert", "asdfg", and "zxcvb" without getting blocked...if I press "jkl" and get blocked, I have a 2-key rollover keyboard, because out of ALL the combinations of keys I could ever press on a keyboard, SOME combination blocks me at 3.

  Please clarify.

TechSupport SignatureHi,

Well I can press qwer without getting blocked and jkl. Trying to type lop will block lpd is fine. From this then there is a 2-key rollover.

*Please include all emails in your reply, this will speed up the response time*
___________________________

Daniel Nuth
Consumer Liaison Technician
techsupport@saitek.com

That's the kind of information I'm looking for, thank you.  It's an amazement to me that rollover isn't a standard marketing point, even if not a major one (especially for those in the 'gaming' sector, among others).

Please pass along that it doesn't make sense for a company who makes all of the following claims (from ) to market parts that don't meet those claims.

"All these products are designed /by gamers for gamers/, to help them get the best out of their favourite PC games."
"Saitek leads the world with high performance products for PC gamers and stunningly designed peripherals for all PC users."
"Saitek designs and manufactures consumer electronics products which improve the user’s multimedia, gaming and other PC experiences. Constant innovation, superior design and a /high degree of functionality/ make Saitek products the choice of computer users around the world.
"Saitek stands for superb design and total control."

Being a gamer, claims like "by gamers for gamers" and "high degree of functionality" are troublesome to read if they aren't true.  The rollover issue brings this point to prominence.  

Again, thanks for the response.

[bhtooefr]

For a "gaming" keyboard, the only rollover that matters is 6-key in the QWEASD block, and that block not interfering with any other rollovers. (And, technically, anything running on USB won't meet that requirement, so that last requirement is obviously not that important.)

[IBI]

For a "gaming" keyboard, the only rollover that matters is 6-key in the QWEASD block.

Huh? Only if you're just going to play certain fps games and not fiddle with the settings. It's probably a decent starting point for low-end gaming keyboards but if it's going to be branded a gaming keyboard then it really should shine in all games.

Racing games for example use the arrow keys. Try holding down a vertical and a horizontal arrow key and pressing 0 on the numpad. It doesn't show up on my model M so I'm pretty sure having n-key rollover there would be beneficial too.

And then there are spaceship games than use WD for acceleration, the surrounding keys for functions and the numpad for steering.

Any top-end gaming keyboard should allow any combination of keys I can actually press.

EDIT: I've had a similar deal trying to get the rollover information of the Cherry G80-3000. I emailed two companies that sold them, one told me cherry had told them that the G80-3000 had full n-key rollover but they hadn't tried themselves. The other told me that cherry had told them that the G80 didn't have n-key rollover because adding the diodes would push the price up. I have sent an e-mail to cherry over the weekend but I haven't had a reply yet.

Unfortunatly this kind of blatent lying is pretty much everywhere in the PC market. Apple's recent "Thinnest Laptop" claim is a good example but there are many, many others.

[bhtooefr]

Well, it seems that FPS (and RTS and MMORPG, but those are more mouse-centric) gamers are who most gaming stuff is marketed towards...

[IBI]

Well, it seems that FPS (and RTS and MMORPG, but those are more mouse-centric) gamers are who most gaming stuff is marketed towards...

Hmm, the only bias I've noticed in that direction is for some mice and mousepads, most gaming peripherals (keyboards, headsets, monitors) seem to be marketed towards gaming in general.

[ecru]

Errr for the fps rtcw:et I use 123456erasdfgzx space and shift (sholes layout) for movement and weapon selection.  Others binds are usually used on their own.  Side note esdf for directional movement allow the little finger to access more keys and your index finger is located on a 'marked' key.

I agree false advertising is common.  Keep us updated on how you go.  I too am looking for a keyboard suitable for gaming.  Don't bother with Unicomp - love the feel, but it regularly fails with the above and has occasional failures when using only esdf space and shift on openarena.  There are no plans on improving this aspect of the keyboard.

[karlito]

i have a saitek eclipse at my parents. what key combo are you interested in? I'm fairly certain it will not do true n-key rollover but should support 6 regulars keys down + modifier keys.

I only test W+S+LSHIFT+SPACE and that works fine on the saitek eclipse.

[zillidot]

i have a saitek eclipse at my parents. what key combo are you interested in? I'm fairly certain it will not do true n-key rollover but should support 6 regulars keys down + modifier keys.

I only test W+S+LSHIFT+SPACE and that works fine on the saitek eclipse.

I think QWEASD would be a good one to try. Any others?

[bhtooefr]

Modifiers are irrelevant.

QWEASD is important for many FPSes, SDFJKL is important for brailling...

[IBI]

The modifier keys (control, alt, shift, windows) are all individually connected on most keyboards apparently. Shift and enter don't seem to be independant on this keyboard though, so it might be worth trying something like v-b-space.

It's also worth trying up arrow, right arrow, numpad 0.

[karlito]

QWEASD does NOT work on saitek eclipse. I get to QWE and asdf would not register.

qwejkl however does work

sdfjkl works

[IBI]

If you can't get QW* and A to register together then it sounds like a normal 3-key rollover for gaming purposes

It supports sdfjkl for braille transcribing though, I'll add a link to that thread.