Joysticks!

[Daniel Beaver]

I don't see a lot of posts about Joysticks of this forum. When I was younger, I was really into flights sims, and I amassed a collection of joysticks. It was sort of a precursor to this Keyboard collecting thing...

They like to chill on the top shelf of my desk, just above the Selectric:



From left to right:

• Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 - I use this for most flight sims.
• Microsoft Sidewinder Precision Pro - For older flight sims that don't have force feedback.
• Microsoft Sidewinder 3d Pro - I use this exclusively for playing Mechwarrior 2.
• Logitech Wingman Extreme - Just an alternative joystick for my Old Games PC.
• Logitech Extreme 3D pro - I use this for playing Mechwarrior 3 and 4. So many buttons!

I'm still holding out for a nice CH joystick at a garage sale or something.

What joysticks do you use? Post pictures!

[NamelessPFG]

Desktop shots
Somewhat dated shots that I need to update, but they get the point across as far as my main flight controls go.

That, of course, being a Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar (with a Force-Controlled Cougar mod) with some Thrustmaster RCS pedals (with one of those CubPilot Hall sensor kits) slaved to it. You'd be hard-pressed to find controls better suited to Falcon 4.0, but the stick mod in question makes it undesirable for a lot of things.

That's the point where I break out a (not pictured) 2nd-gen/red Microsoft SideWinder Force-Feedback 2. I would've used a Logitech WingMan Strike Force 3D instead, but that stick had some horribly-engineered gimbals (the way the pots are mated to them makes X/Y-axis bleed a major problem), not to mention plenty of slop near the center due to a massive centering force deadzone that the SWFFB2 doesn't suffer from.

Also not pictured:

-two Logitech WingMan Interceptors (Very ergonomic, precise, and bristling with controls right on the stick, notably the three hat switches on the head, but the digital gameport interface (read: NOT compatible with cheap USB adapters made for analog gameport sticks), lack of rudder twist, and lack of proper driver support beyond Win98SE are issues that keep me from using them. I'm hoping someone will develop a special USB adapter for them like some chap named Grendel did for the SideWinder 3D Pro. Actually, he WAS working on that specific stick some years ago, but I have seen no fruits of that labor.)

-Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold USB (It was once gutted for a long-discontinued project. If I could just remember where all the wires went, I could probably rewire everything and get it working again. I still probably wouldn't use it much because the stick feels a bit weird around center.)

-CH Products Fighterstick + Pro Pedals USB (I no longer own these. They were precise and very programmable, but not very comfortable/ergonomic. The Fighterstick had the traditional CH feel-wide throw, light centering force. The Pro Pedals were a bit too closely spaced together for my tastes. Since Guillemot/Thrustmaster is closing in on the programmability gap with T.A.R.G.E.T. and I no longer have even my USB DT225 trackball, it's doubtful I'll go back.)

-Thrustmaster F-22 Pro (I no longer have it. It was a nice stick for the time, but being analog gameport-based, prone to jitter. Also, it feels much like a stock Cougar would if the Cougar's stick handle was plastic rather than zamac, due to a very similar stock gimbal design.)

-Suncom SFS Throttle (I no longer have it. Very comfortable and programmable on-the-fly, but some issues included one of the throttle arms having a bit of play with the slider pot arm when making fine adjustments, the hardware programming not holding down Ctrl, Alt, or Shift for things like deploying speedbrakes, and the lower two rocker switches being dedicated to switching programming slots.)

I'll have to try and pinch my pennies for the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog, but the lack of T.A.R.G.E.T.-compatible rudder pedals that I could use to integrate them all into a single DirectInput ID for older games/sims is a bummer. Some people are working on projects to make rudder pedals out of a Thrustmaster T.16000-M stick's circuitry, which is also T.A.R.G.E.T.-compliant.

(Oh, and those car pedals in the second desktop shot, in front of my RCS? Those are pedals for my Microsoft SideWinder Force-Feedback Wheel, also red/2nd-gen and USB. It's meant to show that there's enough room down there to shove the RCS back and place some car pedals if needed.)

[Daniel Beaver]

Nice setup. I'd kill for pedals and independent throttle control. Someday...

I used to own a Logitech force feedback stick (I can't remember which one), and was not very impressed with it. The MS force feedback sticks are quite an upgrade.

[ricercar]

I had to buy a USB joystick when I finally realized that Wndows stopped supporting a game port with Vista. It's a $7 thrift store Saitek AV8R ("aviator,"get it? ha ha ha. I didn't). There's not a lot of complaining I can do for $7.

Until then my Microsoft Sidewinder handled all my joystick needs. Which was basically Descent 1 and Elite.

[netwebber]

I miss my original MS Force Feedback Pro. It had a shift button, which gave a lot more flexibility than the FF2. The FF2 is still alive and kickin' though (and USB instead of gameport).

If you're looking for a good force feedback game to get into, Freespace 2 has an active community. There's even a mod that brings the textures and environment up to modern standards. The interface has a great system that uses the INS/DEL/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn cluster to control shield, weapons, and engine power

It's sad that space sims (and for the most part, flight sims) died.

[Daniel Beaver]

Freespace 2 was great. It is has also been released for free. Everyone should play it.

[Oqsy]

I have a collection of Gravis, MS, and nostromo sticks/controllers

[Shawn Stanford]

I still have my CH Flightstick and the pedals in the garage. Hundreds and hundreds of hours on them ("X-Wing vs. Tie" and "Aces of the Pacific") and the last time I used them they still worked perfectly.

[NamelessPFG]

Here's another joystick-related question for you all:

How much time do you spend on developing custom game profiles?

I didn't do much of it before, seeing as most of the titles I played worked just fine with 28 buttons and 8 axes. For the few that were much more complicated (Falcon 4.0: Allied Force, most notably), I found custom profiles that worked well.

But as I mentioned in the gaming thread, I'm working on my own profile for Independence War 2, and the TM-developed profile is...not really suitable to me, somewhat because of the way some of the controls are laid out, but mostly because of overdependence on the dogfight switch. I'll see if I can cram all of the most important binds into it using just S3 shift and /I /O statements.

Even there, that's just a mere fraction of what the Cougar's actually capable of. I haven't really needed to delve into logical flags just yet (save for AND statements that make buttons that aren't S3 shift buttons, but when you only have 48 flags to work with and /I /O statements don't eat into that...).

[Daniel Beaver]

The source code has been released for Freespace 2. The link I provided a few posts up doesn't contain the full game, but rather the launcher and myriad of custom campaigns that have been created, not to mention modernized graphics. Give it a whirl.

[mr_a500]

I've got a couple Competition Pro joysticks and a Tac-2. They're supposedly the best (non-flight stick) joysticks ever made.




The Competition Pro is almost "buckling spring-like". It's clicky when you move the stick. (the Tac-2 would then be more like an Alps)

[mr_a500]

There's a USB version of the Competition Pro.

[zmurf]

I have a couple of USB Retro Ports myself. Work really nice...




That way I am able to use all my favourite joysticks...

The Bug...




... Tac2...




... And...
... Command Control

[mr_a500]

I heard the Wico Command (bat) was mushy. That's why I didn't get one. Otherwise, it looks nice and solid.

I never heard of "The Bug" before. It looks like a sex tool.

[RoboKrikit]

This is the kind of joystick I use.









If you want to see some really nice ones, check out Joystick Vault.

[MissileMike]

That streetfighter stick is really awesome.

The competition pro was a good stick, but there were a few others from that era that I preferred.  I really, really liked the mindscape powerplayers stick.  I have one of those NIB still shrinkwrapped.

[zmurf]

I heard the Wico Command (bat) was mushy. That's why I didn't get one. Otherwise, it looks nice and solid.

I never heard of "The Bug" before. It looks like a sex tool.

The Commander is quite nice... but they break easily. I have had 5 or 6 Commanders. And this last one I have had to repair a couple of times.

The Bug is a "love or hate" device. Me and my brother thinks it's the best joystick ever. It based on spring resistant micro switches. A little like a IBM model M buckle spring.
It's almost impossible to break the switches. But on the other hand the plastic is really cheap.
The best part of The Bug is that it's very short stroke distance between the different joystick positions. Making it very fast to play with. I used to be unbeatable in Mortal Combat when I was playing with my The Bug. I could usually do 2.5 combinations in the same time that someone else did one with a Tac2 or equal joystick.

[NamelessPFG]

So we've gone from analog (input, not interface) to digital sticks...

I was thinking about building my own arcade stick panel, but the question for me is invariably "What parts am I going to use?" Button-wise, I'm probably going with concave Happs with horizontally-mounted microswitches or whatever best reflects the sort used in American arcades (smaller, possibly 24mm, concave, TACTILE AND CLICKY), but that still leaves the question of the stick...and I want something octogonal-gated and ball-topped while still having TACTILE AND CLICKY microswitches.

In short, I like my arcade controls like I like my keyboards.

(Oh, and since the resident Amiga guru is here, may I ask if there's ANYTHING for the system that supports ANALOG flight sticks? Frontier: Elite II and a few others look like they're begging for it, and I know that DB-9 interface supports it.)

[RoboKrikit]

Beware modern Happ parts. Happ quality has declined severely in the last several years, as they have decided to bring the manufacture of many of their components "in-house".  This really means they dumped European IL as the source for many of their parts, and hired out to China to make similar parts, often poorly.  They have also dropped Cherry switches from virtually all of their components.  Some info: http://shoryuken.com/f177/il-faq-information-thread-*happ-now-too-grimey-even-use-cherry-switches*-141741/index10.html

Fortunately IL sells many of the same old parts under their own name.  Some stuff is available in the US at http://www.lizardlick.com/.

In the competitive fighting game scene, most players have moved on from American (Happ) parts to Japanese Sanwa and/or Seimitsu, for a number of reasons.  Even most old school players like myself, who grew up on cabinets with Happ parts, are using Sanwa sticks and buttons.  They won't give you that nostalgic feeling though, if that is what you are looking for.

Some info on current American and Japanese arcade joysticks/pushbuttons and their attributes:

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/attributes_brands.html

[NamelessPFG]

But part of it IS the nostalgia, really. That's why I want the smaller, concave, clicky buttons. However, is there really that much difference in terms of the buttons between Happ and IL, the latter having mostly translucent button casings on LizardLick aside?

As for sticks, I'm now reassured more than ever to go Sanwa or Seimitsu, probably the latter...the question is, which one? Hard to tell without hands-on experience.

[RoboKrikit]

But part of it IS the nostalgia, really. That's why I want the smaller, concave, clicky buttons. However, is there really that much difference in terms of the buttons between Happ and IL, the latter having mostly translucent button casings on LizardLick aside?

If it's mainly for nostalgia and it's been a while since you've used the buttons anyway, you probably won't notice the difference. The biggest difference is in the Happ/IL joysticks. It doesn't look like LizardLick has the full range of IL pushbuttons there.

As for sticks, I'm now reassured more than ever to go Sanwa or Seimitsu, probably the latter...the question is, which one? Hard to tell without hands-on experience.

What sort of games would you be playing? Happ sticks dominated in US arcades in the 90s, and before that it varied a bit per cabinet.

[mr_a500]

(Oh, and since the resident Amiga guru is here, may I ask if there's ANYTHING for the system that supports ANALOG flight sticks? Frontier: Elite II and a few others look like they're begging for it, and I know that DB-9 interface supports it.)

Yes, of course. You can see some Amiga analogue joystick information in this EAB thread.

[NamelessPFG]

If it's mainly for nostalgia and it's been a while since you've used the buttons anyway, you probably won't notice the difference. The biggest difference is in the Happ/IL joysticks. It doesn't look like LizardLick has the full range of IL pushbuttons there.

I remember enough to know that the Semitsu buttons I've tried on someone else's stick (apparently a modified Mad Catz SFIV stick) just don't feel the same.

What sort of games would you be playing? Happ sticks dominated in US arcades in the 90s, and before that it varied a bit per cabinet.

Shmups and fighting games, mostly, as well as anything MAME-based. If it helps, here are all the platforms I intend to use such a stick with, at the very least (if more are supported, that's icing on the cake):

-PC (and PS3 by extension, though I don't have one of my own)
-Saturn
-Neo-Geo CD
-Xbox (if there's a controller board that supports it short of padhacking)

Unfortunately, the sticks favored for each seem to have opposing qualities. Fighting game sticks seem to favor a larger deadzone to make it easier to hit the diagonals without triggering the cardinals first, whereas shmups favor tight sticks with little deadzone for precision control.

Yes, of course. You can see some Amiga analogue joystick information in this EAB thread.

Ah, yes, there are some titles that would really benefit from them on the Amiga after all that do support analog input.

One of them being that Freespace port I almost keep forgetting about. (And it requires a 68060 or PowerPC CPU, at that, probably AGA as well...just how many Amigas out there even have such CPU upgrades?)

[zmurf]

Ah, yes, there are some titles that would really benefit from them on the Amiga after all that do support analog input.

One of them being that Freespace port I almost keep forgetting about. (And it requires a 68060 or PowerPC CPU, at that, probably AGA as well...just how many Amigas out there even have such CPU upgrades?)

I have an analog joystick to my Amiga that I use when I play Gunship 2000. It works great.

And for the CPU part... I have two 060 equiped Amiga machines. One A1200 and one A4000. I used to have a PPC+040 card, but I sold it and bought a pure 060 card instead. There really isn't much software to classic Amiga that uses PPC... so I didn't really see it necessary to have one. I do have an AmigaOne though... that have a PPC

Most people I know that still uses their Amiga have either an A1200 or A4000 with a 060 card (or 030 card)

And talking about acceleration cards: Individual Computers are about to release a 28mhz and a 56mhz 030 card with DDR memory. The 56mhz model beats a 040@25mhz at frame rate test in AmigaDOOM.

[RoboKrikit]

I remember enough to know that the Semitsu buttons I've tried on someone else's stick (apparently a modified Mad Catz SFIV stick) just don't feel the same.

Ah, OK.  Seimitsus (and Sanwas; all Japanese buttons) will feel a lot different from classic American stuff, since they use light switches with no clicky feedback.  The new and old Happ/IL buttons will all be in the same ballpark.  If you're curious, there is some info available on the difference between the old Happ w/Cherry and new Happ w/E-switch.  

Shmups and fighting games, mostly, as well as anything MAME-based. If it helps, here are all the platforms I intend to use such a stick with, at the very least (if more are supported, that's icing on the cake):

-PC (and PS3 by extension, though I don't have one of my own)
-Saturn
-Neo-Geo CD
-Xbox (if there's a controller board that supports it short of padhacking)

Original Xbox, right?  Toodles' Multi-Console Cthulhu board supports those systems with the exception of the Neo.  NeoGeo is sort of (un)special because the controllers don't have any sort of onboard processing; you can essentially hardwire the buttons straight to the connector.  If you need Xbox 360 support, there are other boards for that, but none that support older systems too, yet.  There is Cthulhu support thread on SRK with lots of info.

Unfortunately, the sticks favored for each seem to have opposing qualities. Fighting game sticks seem to favor a larger deadzone to make it easier to hit the diagonals without triggering the cardinals first, whereas shmups favor tight sticks with little deadzone for precision control.

If you're going for an American/Happ setup, I'd recommend getting an IL EuroStick.  This is essentially the Happ Competition stick that was popular through the 90s and into the 2000's in American arcades.  It is an 8-way stick with a circular feel that you'll be familiar with.  It works well for both fighting games and shmups, assuming you prefer the American feel.  I use Japanese stuff these days, and have different setups for fighting games and shmups, but I have a lot of sticks.

You can of course mix the Happ buttons you want with a Japanese stick, though that is not done very often.  Japanese parts are for the most part designed to pop into thinner metal control panels, while American parts slot into thicker (1/2" to 3/4") panels.  You can get a stick pre-built with mixed parts, last I checked, from Arcade-In-A-Box.

You might want to check out SRK Tech Talk for lots more info.

[NamelessPFG]

Ah, OK.  Seimitsus (and Sanwas; all Japanese buttons) will feel a lot different from classic American stuff, since they use light switches with no clicky feedback.  The new and old Happ/IL buttons will all be in the same ballpark.  If you're curious, there is some info available on the difference between the old Happ w/Cherry and new Happ w/E-switch.

Got it. Cherry D4 switches are the way to go. (Is that the same Cherry we Geekhackers are familiar with?)

Original Xbox, right?  Toodles' Multi-Console Cthulhu board supports those systems with the exception of the Neo.  NeoGeo is sort of (un)special because the controllers don't have any sort of onboard processing; you can essentially hardwire the buttons straight to the connector.  If you need Xbox 360 support, there are other boards for that, but none that support older systems too, yet.  There is Cthulhu support thread on SRK with lots of info.

Yes, the original Xbox. I don't own an Xbox 360 and still don't have enough incentive to get one.

CoinOPS/MAME aside, GGXX #Reload, Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO, and Marvel vs. Capcom 2 are begging for a stick.

That said, I wasn't aware that the MC Cthulhu had Saturn support, because the LizardLick page makes no mention of it. Neo-Geo support isn't a big deal for the reason you mention (DB-15, just 10 digital switches total); since I'm going with a modular stick design anyway (that is, the MC Cthulhu resides in its own box that the actual control box plugs into, and I could just replace it with an adapter cable for the Neo-Geo).

If you're going for an American/Happ setup, I'd recommend getting an IL EuroStick.  This is essentially the Happ Competition stick that was popular through the 90s and into the 2000's in American arcades.  It is an 8-way stick with a circular feel that you'll be familiar with.  It works well for both fighting games and shmups, assuming you prefer the American feel.  I use Japanese stuff these days, and have different setups for fighting games and shmups, but I have a lot of sticks.

I actually don't remember much in terms of American joystick feel, just the button feel.

One thing's for sure-I want a ball top and an OCTOGONAL gate that still allows reliable diagonal response, which already means a Sanwa or Seimitsu stick with the proper restrictor gate. I guess the octogonal gate preference stems from me being used to Nintendo's analog sticks, especially for SSB and the like. (Not that I'd ever consider using a digital stick for that.)

You can of course mix the Happ buttons you want with a Japanese stick, though that is not done very often.  Japanese parts are for the most part designed to pop into thinner metal control panels, while American parts slot into thicker (1/2" to 3/4") panels.  You can get a stick pre-built with mixed parts, last I checked, from Arcade-In-A-Box.

You might want to check out SRK Tech Talk for lots more info.

Ah, that reminds me of how American cabinets are generally made with some sort of thick wood. The Japanese use metal, huh? Well, I'll find a way to mount the mixed parts, I'm sure. (Good thing my stepfather has all sorts of tools in the garage for me to use.)

Also, I've lurked that very forum while doing my research. Quite a valuable resource, even if it might be hard to find something that fulfills my particular requirements. (Specifically, the Saturn.)

[RoboKrikit]

Got it. Cherry D4 switches are the way to go. (Is that the same Cherry we Geekhackers are familiar with?)

Yup, the very same.  Classic Happ stuff uses Cherry microswitches in the stick as well as in the buttons.  Sanwa and Seimitsu use a blend of Omron and proprietary switches (though sometimes the 'proprietary' ones are also Omron), with a harder switch in the sticks and a completely different type of very lightweight switch in the buttons.

Cherry


Omron


Japanese-style pushbutton switches


I did a breakdown of a MadCatz TvC stick with (well-done) clone Sanwa parts vs. an actual JLF stick and Sanwa buttons, if you're interested in the internals.

That said, I wasn't aware that the MC Cthulhu had Saturn support, because the LizardLick page makes no mention of it.

Yup, it has Saturn support.  Saturn and TG-16/PCEngine support were added not too long ago (I have fully tested both), and Dreamcast support was just added.  The MC Cthulhu is firmware-upgradeable via USB, and new stuff has been added pretty often.  As of today:

Q: What consoles will it work on?
A: Currently, the MC Cthulhu will work on the PS3 (with all of the functionality of the original PS3 Only Cthulhu, so yes, it works just fine on PC), Xbox1, Dreamcast, Playstion/Playstation 2, Gamecube, NES, Super Nintendo, 3DO*, Sega Saturn and TurboGrafx16/PC-Engine consoles. Playstation support appears to work well with many converters.
(3DO support is currently limited to being the only controller. No daisy chain support or support in a daisy chain.)

Neo-Geo support isn't a big deal for the reason you mention (DB-15, just 10 digital switches total); since I'm going with a modular stick design anyway (that is, the MC Cthulhu resides in its own box that the actual control box plugs into, and I could just replace it with an adapter cable for the Neo-Geo).

Yeah, that is a pretty useful approach.  You might want to check out the enclosure I used for my PS2 -> Multi-Console converter.  For output the MC Cthulhu is really well-suited to RJ-45 (I usually use a Neutrik jack), but I used some other stuff there just for kicks.

One thing's for sure-I want a ball top and an OCTOGONAL gate that still allows reliable diagonal response, which already means a Sanwa or Seimitsu stick with the proper restrictor gate. I guess the octogonal gate preference stems from me being used to Nintendo's analog sticks, especially for SSB and the like. (Not that I'd ever consider using a digital stick for that.)

If you have time/cash to play around with options, I'd try out both a Sanwa JLF with the octo gate, as well as a Seimitsu LS-56 with its octo gate.  These are at almost opposite ends of the spectrum: the JLF's octo is very widely-spaced (some might say too wide) with a pretty light stick feel and long throw; it is pretty easy to be accurate with this setup if you don't find the feel too "sloppy".  The LS-56 with octo is quite tightly-spaced (some might say too tight!) with a stiffer feel and short throw, which may have a nice feel, but does require more accuracy on your part since everything is spaced more closely together.

The looseness of the JLF + octo setup can be ameliorated with a change in spring.  There are numerous possibilities, but I would pick up a couple each of LS-33, LS-32, and JLF springs.  You can try each alone or combine them for the right feel.  See Per's "Sanwa JLF Ultimate Mod", though personally I would stay away from the electrical tape and switch mods.

There is a lot of helpful info about restrictors on Slagcoin's site.

Ah, that reminds me of how American cabinets are generally made with some sort of thick wood. The Japanese use metal, huh? Well, I'll find a way to mount the mixed parts, I'm sure. (Good thing my stepfather has all sorts of tools in the garage for me to use.)

If he's got a router you ought to be fine.  With a Japanese stick and American-style buttons, mounted in wood, I would go for a top-mounted setup, where a recessed mount is created from the top of the wood for the stick to rest in.  When covered with art & plexiglass the recess is invisible.  Same technique used for these sticks and demonstrated here.

[lam47]

TMO is a nice guy. I used to talk to him a lot on Shoryuken.
I also made about 30 sticks not unlike the one above.
Very nice it is too in quilted maple.

[RoboKrikit]

Yeah, I love all of the striped maple woods.  I used to make my own enclosures back in the day, but my woodworking tools got stolen from our storage room while I was still living in an apartment, and I haven't replaced them.  Now I just modify sticks or buy cases, and do the hardware.

I still have the first 2 sticks I made back in the 90s.  Refurbished them with new Happ stuff just before they started outsourcing to China.




Tim sorta retired from custom stick building, but him and his wife Brie still put up a new case once in a while on http://norrisarcadesticks.blogspot.com/.

[CodeChef]

Sorry to necropost but I feel this thread is worth it. I'm actually about to start building my own SF stick soon, I've got the buttons and the controller PCB, got some wood laying around and hardware, I just need joystick now... I picked up 6+2 Hori buttons from a guy on SRK just because I'm a cheap bastard and didn't feel like paying 15 bucks for a set of Sanwas. I don't know the difference, last time I touched an arcade-style controller was 10 years ago.

[PikachuDX]

8GpZgbNqLgpkz'XjAcu0FUM;zlbMI}$)0TFol5]V-vISX1+du7

[kill will]

nice vshg

that was probably my favorite stick of my collection

definitely the best designed stick imo due to the 6 buttons, no turbos, and made by sega doesnt hurt either

i cut out a rectangle plexi piece and cut out the  whole bottom of the joystick so i could access the buttons and joystick.  much easier than the top.  and it was very easy too.

[PikachuDX]

.e0!%gs~%-4~u1I900kQ5Nyggy=_prMoCzL=imLjvx]uZd}lHl

[002]

slightly off-topic but do any of you guys play on GGPO?
If so, what games?

[kill will]

i used to own sooo many joysticks, then sf4 came out and people went nutso over prices.  i actually made some money off things like hssn's and byrdo and tmo sticks.  

this is the only stick i own now

http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=334963&image=253100796&images=253100796,253100840&formats=0,0&format=0

i use it for making music with midi, sometimes play poker with it, and maybe twice a year play some street fighter

[kill will]

would anyone here be interested in modding my ascii stick.  right now its stock parts with a pelican adaptor

if someone can mod the joystick with jlf counterparts, and switch the buttons, and install a chtulhu board i would pay a nice fee.

will

[godly_music]

As a kid, my parents bought me this:



I didn't appreciate it as much as I should've. It worked really well, but it lacked an index finger button (pew pew) and apparently that was a big thing for me. Still, I used it a lot.

Then last year, I bought this beast:



What can I say, it's a good stick. Hasn't died on me yet, and as far as I hear a lot of sticks die pretty fast. It is auto-calibrating which is just a fancy way of saying that you have to reset it once in a while. The two small thumb buttons are not too solid either, but nothing fell off yet.

Those funky looking chrome bulbs are for customizing it, by the way. You can change some angles and you can take off the palm rest, put it on the other side and change its height.

[PikachuDX]

lD}_aJR~iH2vZ-=~c9k3.d-}T]o$dKAGevo@!'7z01O#Z@=wRE

[RoboKrikit]

I play ST and occasionally HF, but have been on GGPO pretty rarely since my kiddo came along and SF4 came out.  I do love GGPO and wish more games would adapt Ponder's rollback style of netcode.

[NamelessPFG]

Since I went to a laundromat not too long ago and got a chance to refresh my memories on how arcade controls feel at the machines there, I noticed something-the buttons (all Happ/iL style, of course) felt VERY different. Some had a light spring force, almost mushy. Others had a lot of resistance, like Cherry MX Blacks that click. (The less-used buttons like Start are obviously the stiffer ones.) And as for the button casings, even the concave ones weren't identical-many of them had sharper edges compared to the more rounded look I'm used to. (It's not easy to describe without a picture, but you might know what I mean-the outer rim of the button itself, but not the mounted, non-moving part.) Some of the machines also had a convex button or two interspersed with concave buttons for some reason.

And the sticks? All bat-handled, circular-gated, save for a Ms. Pac-Man machine with a ball-topped 4-way stick. Still not sure I like those American-style sticks; perhaps it's just been ingrained to me that arcade sticks are supposed to have ball tops, or that I might like an octogonal gate more. Only one way to find out.

I am still dead set on 24mm clicky concave buttons, however, and nothing is going to change that. The problem I have now is finding which concave pushbutton housings have the more rounded edges outside (those seem to be older and more nostalgic), as well as determining how much resistance they're going to have when pushed. They could very well start out stiff and get mushy later on.

[kill will]

My favorite optical stick is sanwa jlf w. square gate

or an ascii optical with all sanwa parts w/ octagon gate

[RoboKrikit]

The problem I have now is finding which concave pushbutton housings have the more rounded edges outside (those seem to be older and more nostalgic), as well as determining how much resistance they're going to have when pushed. They could very well start out stiff and get mushy later on.

You're probably looking for the Happ Pushbutton with Horizontal Microswitch, which is the best concave variant around.  If you played SF or other popular arcade games in the 90s, in an arcade with decent parts, you probably played on these.  You might've also played on the "Ultimate" Pushbutton, but I wouldn't recommend those.  There is nothing ultimate about the Ultimate buttons or sticks.  I linked the Happ site (higher prices) because LizardLick doesn't sell the Ultimates anymore.

The Horizontal one (along with its iL equivalent) takes about 80g to actuate and is rated at 10,000,000 cycles.  The hole size for all of the American style pushbuttons is 1 1/8", or about 28.6mm, not sure where you are getting the 24mm measurement; the small Japanese 'Start' buttons are 24mm.

I wouldn't worry too much about mushiness.  A lot of the arcade machines you'll find in laundromats are quite old and have been beaten on for 15 or 20 years without ever having parts replaced.  It takes a lot of abuse to wear down the buttons.  Also many machines are shipped with inferior buttons and joysticks.

[NamelessPFG]

Button measurement: Whoops! Didn't know exact figures, but I knew this-30mm Japanese buttons are way too large for my liking, never mind the linear feel! My fingers are already stretched out enough with Happ/iL-size buttons!

Also, I think those very buttons have been recommended to me before, perhaps even in this very thread. The outside edge of the plunger doesn't look sharp, and overall, they look just about right, even if Happ supposedly has Chinese clone parts now.

I've heard of a different issue for one of my potential uses, however-it seems that the Neo-Geo controller ports would require deeper female DB-15s, or something of that nature. Where would I find plugs guaranteed to fit? (Preferably wired up as well, for a more professional look.)

[nanu]

I just finished my first stick (first if you ignore the plywood box I put together thirteen years ago...)

Looking forward to your final outcome! I assume it will contain a lot of wood, tohou faceplate and paracord =D

Wood? Yep, cherry hardwood + basswood.
Toohoo faceplate? Check.
Paracord? Idly spent nearly an hour blindly sleeving a USB cable (with its shielding and original insulation intact)!

You either know me too well or maybe you affected this outcome.

[kill will]

i think there should be an arcade joystick sub forum.   they are technically mechanical switch input devices.

[nanu]

It just feels so awkward to deviate so far from the established niche of this site (mechanical keyboards) that it felt adequate to merely throw a link to another established niche site (joystick vault).

I guess I didn't do differently (post an entirely new thread) since it would feel as if I were spamming pictures to people who weren't here for it.

there should be an arcade joystick sub forum

But, the subforum we're talking in is the place for it! So I guess it is my fault. Don't we have enough spam here from certain users >_>

You said that this isnt a joystick forum.. What overlap of interests we do have as users is probably coincidental.

[NamelessPFG]

This subforum is partially a joystick forum now, as far as I'm concerned.

But we need to make further distinctions when making joystick threads:

-Arcade sticks like we're talking about now. Digital inputs, suited for fighting games and shmups. Happ, iL, Sanwa, Seimitsu...the life and blood of SRK Tech Talk and BYOAC.

-Flight sticks and HOTAS setups. The sort of thing that gets discussed at SimHQ and the like all the time. Could be anything from the Microsoft SideWinder Force-Feedback 2 to the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog.

[kill will]

i dont think it is coincidental at all.  we all seem to like clicky accurate input devices.  look at lam.  he is one of the top 3 joystick makers of all time.  and also very knowledgeable here on the forum.

[sixty]

I just finished my first stick (first if you ignore the plywood box I put together thirteen years ago...)



Wood? Yep, cherry hardwood + basswood.
Toohoo faceplate? Check.
Paracord? Idly spent nearly an hour blindly sleeving a USB cable (with its shielding and original insulation intact)!

You either know me too well or maybe you affected this outcome.

Haha. Nice, pretty much looks exactly like what I expected to see!

[Ekaros]

My MS Force Feedback 2 works still... So how come MS hasn't make any mechanical keyboards

[digitalleftovers]

My MS Force Feedback 2 works still... So how come MS hasn't make any mechanical keyboards

Speaking on behalf of a company that has a call center, I'm not going to be able to convince them to spend $60+ per keyboard vs. ~$10 until someone files an RSI claim, and I don't beleive that that thinking is unique to my workplace.  Keyboards have not been a focus, even in the industries that use them most, for many years.  The market wanted sub-$20 boards and manufacturers made them.

Its strange to think that we have gamers to thank for reintroducing them to the mainstream (or starting to).

[kill will]

i am gonna build a keyboard out of a coffee table and very large rectangular happ buttons.

[BucklingSpring]

Have a few but this is the last I got few years ago.

Saitek X52 Pro... Which I used mainly to fly choppers in Battlefield II

[Grendel]

What can I say... Playing Descent uses up joysticks :biggrin1:

[CeeSA]

ah, good boy!  i love the sidewinder 3d pro. it's a shame this joystick is not compatibel to normal gameport usb converter

[Grendel]

ah, good boy!  i love the sidewinder 3d pro. it's a shame this joystick is not compatibel to normal gameport usb converter

Yep, spent about a year trying to find a 3D Pro replacement. Ended up developing a USB converter specifically for the 3D Pro, based on V-USB and later on Teensy boards. Very easy to copy

[CeeSA]

could you help me with that? how about to make an controller for me?
i would pay good

[Arc'xer]

With the amount of money you spent on so many joysticks and consider you "use"(not sure if you mean wear out or rage break) them up.

You might have well just invested it in a high end joystick like the CH product or something.

[curzen]

too bad that no one makes a clone of the old black/red Gravis joystick

[Grendel]

could you help me with that? how about to make an controller for me?
i would pay good

Check out the link above, it's really very easy to copy.

With the amount of money you spent on so many joysticks and consider you "use"(not sure if you mean wear out or rage break) them up.

You might have well just invested it in a high end joystick like the CH product or something.

Playing Descent 3 wears joysticks out. At ~8hr/week gaming, the pots in a Logitech 3D Pro Extreme last about 2 weeks to 3 month max. CH sticks are better, but don't have the "twist" and a rather long throw. The SideWinder series sticks have optical sensors, and the 3D Pro has an unique short throw (while maintaining accuracy.) One of those usually lasts me two years (replacing the hat switches twice) before they become too slopy. I got those in the picture each for $13 shipped from eBay, not too bad for a lifetime supply

[CeeSA]

i can't even get a PBC15F or something similar here in germany

[NamelessPFG]

I didn't think Grendel himself would show up here...

Somehow, I don't think that's his entire joystick collection. I could've sworn he mentioned something about owning a Logitech WingMan Interceptor and trying to develop a special adapter that would work with Logitech ADI (yet another digital gameport interface), but that was years ago, and I have yet to see any results. There's an open-source Linux driver for the ADI sticks floating around, so I'm pretty sure there's enough understood about the protocol to make a hardware USB adapter.

I've got two Interceptors lying around unused because of that one little problem. What a shame, since they're probably the best sticks Logitech ever made. All you could possibly want out of them would be USB and rudder twist. (The later WingMan Strike Force 3D would've been a decent follow-up if they didn't completely botch the pots/gimbals and the centering force, resulting in me using a MS SWFFB2 as my FFB stick of choice despite missing one badly-needed hat switch.)

As for other controllers...I spotted a Logitech CyberMan 2 amidst all those Microsoft sticks. I've wondered what it's like to play Descent with one of those. (However, I could've sworn that this was before Logitech bought up Labtec, and by proxy, Spacetec IMC. Back then, Spacetec favored the ball/sphere shape, but ever since they became the Logitech-owned 3Dconnexion, they've moved to the puck shape more reminiscent of the CyberMan 2.)

[RoboKrikit]

I did a writeup over at SRK on getting Cherry microswitches (any standard microswitch, really) into Japanese buttons like Sanwas and Seimitsus.  Check it out if you're interested in the Cherry tactile feel in Japanese buttons.

[500_pts]

LONG time (almost 2 years) lurker, 1st time poster. Simply to say that this thread is all wrong. Needs to be a precision pro porn thread. Mw 2-4 all day, every day, best joystick ever.

[ktkr]

Recently acquired this.



It's the official Mushihimesama Futari Ver 1.5 stick from Hori. It has best arcade stick, Seimitsu LS-32, by default, but the buttons are super **** chinese crap, so I swapped in some Sanwa OSBFs. The joystick ball is Sanwa's meshball; it's a way cool waste of money.

I also have the Mad Catz SFIV FightStick Tournament Edition with Seimitsu LS-32 but I can't be arsed to take a pic of it because it's gathering dust in the closet.

[chel-]

Nice. For a very brief period of time I got into arcade sticks for SF. I have the madcatz se but I replaced the stick and buttons with sanwa parts. Its really great but I'm still terrible with it

I was actually very close to buying the meshball for mine as well but I think it was too expensive (if I remember correctly it was a limited time thing right?)

[RoboKrikit]

They were a limited run for Per at Akihabarashop, but they were so popular that they kept making them.  I love balltops and have a bunch.  I have even weighed my balls; the figures are as follows:

Seimitsu LB-30: 17g
Seimitsu LB-35: 25g
Seimitsu LB-39: 30g
Sanwa LB-35: 27g
Sanwa LB-35 mesh: 27g
Sanwa LB-30-N: 29g (32g with adapter)
Sanwa LB-45: 52g (55g with adapter)

[NamelessPFG]

Got my Seimitsu LS-56-01 today!

With the octogonal restrictor gate, it's pretty much everything I was hoping for. Nice, short throw and highly responsive, plus the gate feels nice. The microswitches also feel MUCH better than on those Mad Catz JLF knockoffs; more of a substantial feeling when pushing against them. Could be the levers.

That said, I never figured I would want just a little more deadzone out of this stick, which could be done with a smaller actuator. I might still get used to it with some slight changes in technique.

All I need now is a custom casing, some iL convex buttons with Cherry D4 microswitches in a straight layout (which I'm not going to get with my TvC stick casings, sadly), and an MC Cthulhu. All of that paired up with the LS-56 would make for an ideal stick.

[AlleyViper]

I still have a Sidewinder 3D Pro (with lots of use in X-W Vs Tie and X-W Alliance online ), fortunately it's still connectable to creative pci cards and sometimes on my SS7s AWE64.
My current stick is collecting dust for some years, as time to play IL2 v4.xxm is next to none. An Über HOTAS Cougar (original reinforced gimbals mod), paired with the obligatory Simped Vario/Pro for prop/aerial gunnery sims (cupped, longer throw pedals). Between those I've had a Sidewinder Precision 2 until it broke and a Saitek X45 (for a very short time).

[darksakul]

How is this for a joystick?

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 48409[/ATTACH]
Customized Hori Real Arcade Pro EX modified to be a Twin Stick controller for Virtual-On
I got a good friend from SRK Tech Talk to make me a custom top panel to mount the 2 flight sticks on the Hori body.

here is how I build the thing
shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/dual-stick-twin-stick-guide-and-work-log.142808/

[Hente]

Wow, that looks pretty damn sick. I was thinking of doing the same for VOOT but I sold my xbox.


Top is just an SE w/ OBSF-30/JLF/art swap, bottom two are custom builds w/ JLFs & PS-14-KNs.