US | NovelKeys |
CA | Ashkeebs |
UK | proto[Typist] |
EU | Oblotzky |
SEA | iLumKB |
CN | zFrontier |
OCE | SwitchKeys |
[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=118089.0][img]https://i.imgur.com/GGNhrLw.jpg[/img][/url]
Mike likely thought this was a great keyset and something he wanted 3000 in stock units of in the warehouse to eventually slash down to $99 in five years.
Novelkeys has been doing non-ic ics since olivia++, what gets me the most is still using the term group buys for these obvious pre order windows. This one lasts a measly two weeks and will likely be a solid price to artificially incite fomo and get people to pull out their wallets. However, right after the "group buy" window closes it'll bump up $20-40 and ACTUALLY use the term pre order correctly to sell extras until it ships.
There is absolutely no community effort required to get this keyset made, nor does it look like any intention to reach out to the community to gauge for changes to kitting, or if there is actual interest. Mike likely thought this was a great keyset and something he wanted 3000 in stock units of in the warehouse to eventually slash down to $99 in five years.
The upsetting part is I like this keyset idea a lot it's a ton of fun and the accent mods are such a fun addition. I just worry about color matching timelines as usual with these projects with such a huge scope and amount of colors. I'm trying to work on my compliment sandwich but the effort here can only afford you one piece of bread.
Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions you may have.this is it I thinkNovelkeys has been doing non-ic ics since olivia++, what gets me the most is still using the term group buys for these obvious pre order windows. This one lasts a measly two weeks and will likely be a solid price to artificially incite fomo and get people to pull out their wallets. However, right after the "group buy" window closes it'll bump up $20-40 and ACTUALLY use the term pre order correctly to sell extras until it ships.
This is not true at all. We have never done what you're saying. We actually (since our website relaunch) only use the term preorder, as that is what it is for us. We believe in the design enough to say that there is no MOQ, and it will be made. Once our preorder window closes (in this case 2 weeks as we noticed there really is no point to do longer) the design remains unavailable until after the preorder ships. We do not have another window of purchases (some other vendors may do this, but we do not).QuoteThere is absolutely no community effort required to get this keyset made, nor does it look like any intention to reach out to the community to gauge for changes to kitting, or if there is actual interest. Mike likely thought this was a great keyset and something he wanted 3000 in stock units of in the warehouse to eventually slash down to $99 in five years.
True that there is no community effort needed to get this made. However, this is still an IC, and feedback is being accounted for. Just like with puddsy's latest set, feedback was considered and the kitting changed. While I have never ordered 3,000 sets of single base kit, I do believe in trying to order the largest amount we can. I do this because I dont want to feed the hype machine, and want to make sure everyone can purchase a set if they want one.QuoteThe upsetting part is I like this keyset idea a lot it's a ton of fun and the accent mods are such a fun addition. I just worry about color matching timelines as usual with these projects with such a huge scope and amount of colors. I'm trying to work on my compliment sandwich but the effort here can only afford you one piece of bread.
Color matching has sped up with GMK, and we have not had any issues with color matching delaying a set. I don't see this being an issue.
The part that upsets me the most with a majority of your comments is that you are so negative, and always try to get a punch in on someone. Its cyber bullying to an extent, and I am not even sure that you see how you treat the "community." Take your energy and do something positive with it.
Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions you may have.
This is not true at all. We have never done what you're saying. We actually (since our website relaunch) only use the term preorder, as that is what it is for us. We believe in the design enough to say that there is no MOQ, and it will be made. Once our preorder window closes (in this case 2 weeks as we noticed there really is no point to do longer) the design remains unavailable until after the preorder ships. We do not have another window of purchases (some other vendors may do this, but we do not).
True that there is no community effort needed to get this made. However, this is still an IC, and feedback is being accounted for. Just like with puddsy's latest set, feedback was considered and the kitting changed. While I have never ordered 3,000 sets of single base kit, I do believe in trying to order the largest amount we can. I do this because I dont want to feed the hype machine, and want to make sure everyone can purchase a set if they want one.
Color matching has sped up with GMK, and we have not had any issues with color matching delaying a set. I don't see this being an issue.
The part that upsets me the most with a majority of your comments is that you are so negative, and always try to get a punch in on someone. Its cyber bullying to an extent, and I am not even sure that you see how you treat the "community." Take your energy and do something positive with it.
I'll attempt to convince you that I'm not overly negative to bait responses from vendors or get some internet points. These kinds of sales tactics and interest checks are pretty scary since it mostly removes you and anyone else attempting to run product for the community from the community you're depending on. I don't want to see NK or others become a faceless shop that does whatever they want, as I've seen others do. Maybe I'm a bit too assuming and over exaggerating.
There should have been an ic form. That's the best way to people to provide feedback without committing to a post on this forum which lots of people don't like to do. Thats how ics have been done for years here and anything straying from that puts people in a loop. I'm also in the belief that if you have a date set to run that a price is likely decided on too and wondering why that can't be public information if there's very little evidence to support that op is taking feedback. In stock GMK is great nobody is going to argue against that, but what community support do you expect to see if a store is filled with things decided by vendors rather than hobbyists?
That's great about color matching but just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it can't. I'm trying again not to come off as so negative, working on it, more so just concerned about the turn things have taken since the pandemic. More sets and more money isn't bad, but lots more of these interest checks popping up have little or nothing to do with community. I think if stuff like this is just ran and there's no where for people to voice their concerns that's just further warp this hobby into being less special than I feel like it is.
I keyboard a bit too hard sometimes, but it's not because I'm mean or ill intended. Don't be concerned about my energy for a second, I go to meetups, I socialize, I talk about how fun this all is every single day. If everything was just an online storefront without outlets like this or discord that were founded on community ran projects this whole thing would be nothing.
While I understand that 95% of IC form feedback is not useful, it does feel like a useful exercise to at least take the 5% chance of getting truly valuable feedback - especially if the set is pre-order and doesn’t rely on community feedback to confirm that the decisions made are ones the community is fond of (meeting MOQ would be the usual proxy for this). Also, given the lack of form/private feedback, the feedback you receive on threads will likely be limited to folks who are frequent posters on geekhack and you’ll get the same voices whether or not they are interested in the set.
Just my two cents. I don’t think the argument is actually that you’re not in it for the community, but rather that it *feels* a lot less like a community project if you present a mostly-completed set with pre-order start date and only a thread (and/or discord channel) to provide input. You’re not Drop, we know that, but the process does feel similar and I think it’s OK to acknowledge that :) GL with the set and thank you for keeping in-stock GMK sets (as an aside)
If you are open to feedback, I really think the “nick” sublegend should be removed from the base without sublegends, or at least offer a plain “.” key and don’t force one random sublegend.
I would also consider a different/reworked sublegend for 9. I know your intention was nine-one-one but my initial reaction was to read it as nine-eleven due to to the color differences. Maybe 9 -1-1 would work better.
I’d thought the nick on the numpad period in shakedown was a typo.
I’m still buying if it’s not. Like the colors.
Honestly, IC forms rarely help as a lot of people who reply never end up purchasing or participating. People who are actually engaged and want the set would be more prone to post a reply to the thread.
Honestly, IC forms rarely help as a lot of people who reply never end up purchasing or participating. People who are actually engaged and want the set would be more prone to post a reply to the thread.
What?
This is an incredibly bad take.
What?
This is an incredibly bad take.
This is a bad take. People who reply but never purchase are still participating by giving feedback. There's lots of experts in this forum that are happy to provide advice to help a GB even if they don't like the theme or colours, and you're losing the opportunity to leverage that by discounting IC forms like this.
If you only care about the customers for a given set, why even post on GeekHack?
- "Nick" sublegend will be removed from the Shakedown base kit.
What?
This is an incredibly bad take.
This is a bad take. People who reply but never purchase are still participating by giving feedback. There's lots of experts in this forum that are happy to provide advice to help a GB even if they don't like the theme or colours, and you're losing the opportunity to leverage that by discounting IC forms like this.
If you only care about the customers for a given set, why even post on GeekHack?
Please dont confuse me for the designer/OP. If Dotnick wants to post an IC form, and it helps him, thats great. My personal experience has been very poor with IC form responses.
Y'all know designers can post forms but totally ignore them right?
I've always been of the mindset that if enough people want a meaningful change to one of my sets, they can leave a comment on the thread, and if there's enough people saying something, I'll see what I can do about it.
Not to say Nick is going to ignore the form, but it's not some binding contract to implement feedback lol.
Honestly, IC forms rarely help as a lot of people who reply never end up purchasing or participating. People who are actually engaged and want the set would be more prone to post a reply to the thread.
Not trying to make accusations or anything, is this like a Novelkeys thing to run novelty kits in this kinda format?
(Attachment Link)
its not a bad takeHonestly, IC forms rarely help as a lot of people who reply never end up purchasing or participating. People who are actually engaged and want the set would be more prone to post a reply to the thread.
What?
This is an incredibly bad take.
So is the base gray custom? I dont see a listing of colors anywhere.
Not trying to make accusations or anything, is this like a Novelkeys thing to run novelty kits in this kinda format?
(Attachment Link)
So is the base gray custom? I dont see a listing of colors anywhere.
I will be putting together a render comparison to similar sets.
The base grey and the darker grey legend are not GMK stock colors. The base grey is a similar shade to GMK 2B, slightly lighter but a more green tone. This darker grey for the legends is several shades lighter than GMK N9, if that helps in the meantime. The accents for the set will be new for GMK, but the new colormatching equipment GMK's using gives me a lot more confidence in being able to match several colors than how things were done previously.
Also, all colors are physical references I confirmed in person with plastic, not paper. So, we won't have the issue of matching plastic to HEX colors, or even discrepancies between paper guide references and the corresponding plastic reference and how that converts to GMK ABS samples.
I prefer not to list colors for my sets for several reasons. The main reason being to avoid overly similar clones from being made. I can't stop cloning, but I can prevent the clones from getting too close to the final GMK product. It seems to have worked so far with GMK Lavender and Chaos Theory, but that could be for lack of trying as well. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is my mentality here.
My feedback:
1.) The shakedown kit doesn't do it for me, and the set without at least the custom mods feels detached from the theme.
2.) I don't like the multi color sub legends on the NumPad. As a heavy numpad user, this detracts value to me. Please consider making all the teal color.
The accent/legend colors are unique. The novs are GREAT. Kudos to the artist who did them.
Idk. Maybe I just missed the first round of bad renders or something, but I like this set a lot. Especially the novelties. I don't really understand what the combat training sub legends are supposed to be though, so I think I'd just be in for the regular base kit.
Idk. Maybe I just missed the first round of bad renders or something, but I like this set a lot. Especially the novelties. I don't really understand what the combat training sub legends are supposed to be though, so I think I'd just be in for the regular base kit.
The sub legends in that kit spell out a word with the corresponding letter. So A + XE is AXE, S + TUN is STUN, and so on.
Idk. Maybe I just missed the first round of bad renders or something, but I like this set a lot. Especially the novelties. I don't really understand what the combat training sub legends are supposed to be though, so I think I'd just be in for the regular base kit.
The sub legends in that kit spell out a word with the corresponding letter. So A + XE is AXE, S + TUN is STUN, and so on.
Oh. Yeah, no thanks, lol
Idk. Maybe I just missed the first round of bad renders or something, but I like this set a lot. Especially the novelties. I don't really understand what the combat training sub legends are supposed to be though, so I think I'd just be in for the regular base kit.
The sub legends in that kit spell out a word with the corresponding letter. So A + XE is AXE, S + TUN is STUN, and so on.
Oh. Yeah, no thanks, lol
I can certainly see why someone wouldn't like the sub legends, but that's why it's only one of the two options available. The theme of the set is fun spooky Hollywood monsters. I love the vibe and the sub legends make it really lighthearted and amusing.
Ultimately, I think the colors speak for themselves (this was a big point for me in the design process)
Idk. Maybe I just missed the first round of bad renders or something, but I like this set a lot. Especially the novelties. I don't really understand what the combat training sub legends are supposed to be though, so I think I'd just be in for the regular base kit.
The sub legends in that kit spell out a word with the corresponding letter. So A + XE is AXE, S + TUN is STUN, and so on.
Oh. Yeah, no thanks, lol
I can certainly see why someone wouldn't like the sub legends, but that's why it's only one of the two options available. The theme of the set is fun spooky Hollywood monsters. I love the vibe and the sub legends make it really lighthearted and amusing.
Thanks!
Yeah, candidly, I knew going into designing them that they wouldn't be for everyone. I tried to be as concise about kitting the alphas/mods styles as possible, and knowing that some may not like the sublegends and/or the text mod novelties, I wanted to offer direct replacements for both in a separate base kit. I thought about every combination and this seemed to make the most sense.
Luckily, if you do buy both base kits, you actually have four possible base kit combinations to choose from with the different alphas and modifiers. I personally think that's going to be pretty high value overall, moreso than just having the sublegends alphas as a break-out kit.
Ultimately, I think the colors speak for themselves (this was a big point for me in the design process), and that's where I found that the Shakedown base kit offers a simpler version of the theme for people who aren't about using the more heavily themed aspects.
Not sure if it is too late but I'm not sure so many arrows are needed with a total of 3 if you get the novelties/spacebar kit. I would cut one and throw the extra one in base.
I personally dont like the forcing of spacebars with the novelties especially if NK will cover MOQ. I would just bump it to its own kit so there are cheaper novelties but if the MOQ for it will not be covered I guess I understand.
Lastly for an ANSI enter novelty you can do a bloody knife or hammer as generic as it is, especially since you have "stab, slash, clobber" and so on..
GLWIC though, I do like this set/idea!
Not sure if it is too late but I'm not sure so many arrows are needed with a total of 3 if you get the novelties/spacebar kit. I would cut one and throw the extra one in base.
I personally dont like the forcing of spacebars with the novelties especially if NK will cover MOQ. I would just bump it to its own kit so there are cheaper novelties but if the MOQ for it will not be covered I guess I understand.
Lastly for an ANSI enter novelty you can do a bloody knife or hammer as generic as it is, especially since you have "stab, slash, clobber" and so on..
GLWIC though, I do like this set/idea!
Can confirm we have already decided on these changes you suggested! The accent legend arrows have been cut and there will be a separate spacebars kit which will have slightly more compat to go with it.
Nearly every kit will have some quality of life edits as well that have been suggested in the IC form, hope to show everyone soon.
I wonder how durable the UV-printed sub legends and novelties will be. Is it gonna be as durable as dye-sub or less durable?
Errrm.. did you decide to drop shakedown base? Completely kills the set for me tbh
Errrm.. did you decide to drop shakedown base? Completely kills the set for me tbh
According to his Discord, Novelkeys cut the base without consulting with him. Hope he goes with another vendor for Volume 2. Sounds awful having your work/design cut.
Errrm.. did you decide to drop shakedown base? Completely kills the set for me tbh
According to his Discord, Novelkeys cut the base without consulting with him. Hope he goes with another vendor for Volume 2. Sounds awful having your work/design cut.
Huh? But there's six other vendors with the exact same kitting?
The Shakedown base has no sublegends. The current "base" from vendors is the Combat Training one.
The Shakedown base has no sublegends. The current "base" from vendors is the Combat Training one.
Yes, I am well aware. My comment was meant to convey my skepticism on how Novelkeys could dictate the kitting for the other six vendors behind the GB runner back.
We did talk to the designer and worked with them on this decision. This wasn't something that we changed without "consulting" with them first.
...which base kit to proceed with was left up to the designer to choose.
To clarify anything on the kitting - Yes, NovelKeys did decide that we should only run one base kit. We did talk to the designer and worked with them on this decision. This wasn't something that we changed without "consulting" with them first. It was a decision that had to be made based on current sales of preorders, but which base kit to proceed with was left up to the designer to choose.
In a perfect scenario, I would have loved to run both base kits. However, the current climate of retail, in general, has been slower. If both base kits did not perform well, we would have to buy out an MOQ for two base kits, which is not something we would be comfortable doing. The reason we call these preorders instead of group buys, is because no matter what we will make sure the items get made. We don't want anyone preordering something that can potentially get cancelled. I don't like that uncertainty for a customer and that is why the decision had to be made to trim the kits.
To clarify anything on the kitting - Yes, NovelKeys did decide that we should only run one base kit. We did talk to the designer and worked with them on this decision. This wasn't something that we changed without "consulting" with them first. It was a decision that had to be made based on current sales of preorders, but which base kit to proceed with was left up to the designer to choose.
In a perfect scenario, I would have loved to run both base kits. However, the current climate of retail, in general, has been slower. If both base kits did not perform well, we would have to buy out an MOQ for two base kits, which is not something we would be comfortable doing. The reason we call these preorders instead of group buys, is because no matter what we will make sure the items get made. We don't want anyone preordering something that can potentially get cancelled. I don't like that uncertainty for a customer and that is why the decision had to be made to trim the kits.
Just don't read what I've written, it's not worth it.More
Okay, since it seems that Mike would prefer to come on to this interest check and try to obfuscate what I said in my server instead of approaching me directly about the entire situation, I suppose I will respond here then too.
The following screenshot shows when Nephlock (or Riley, creative director of NovelKeys) mentioned in the groupchat with myself and NovelKeys' render artist, Fresh, that NovelKeys needed to make changes to the set. As you can see, this came as a shock to us, as it was just over two weeks before the group buy was scheduled to begin. This was surprising as well for the fact that, prior to this bombshell, we had already put together renders for updated kitting that included a number of changes highlighted by community feedback and just natural additions that I thought were great for the set overall. So no, I was not consulted about the decision.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/geM3jsg.jpg)
This set was personally challenging for a number of reasons, and I would like to emphasize that up until this news, Riley was a massive help in the overall design of the set. The set would not have looked the way it did without his help. But to put things straight, there was no discussion with me about the decision to cut the set down beyond which base kit to keep. Given that this news was handed down due to immediate financial reasons, this was also not really much of a choice if I am being completely honest.
The main issue with this decision is that we had intense discussions in roughly July-August 2022 about how many kits to kit for overall, including child kits. Being completely transparent here, Riley and Mike were pulling for just a single base kit at this time given the overall downturn in GB performance over the past year. But at the end of it all, the set did not feel complete to me without the option to mute out the theming slightly and just have a simpler version of the overall concept/theme behind the set represented in the general colorway. Not to mention that when the two base kits were combined, one could actually have chosen one of four alphas+modifier combinations with the available keys (essentially packing four base kit combinations into two base kits). So, I campaigned hard for two base kits at the time and this is what we had all agreed to move forward with. To avoid the victim card here, I was very headstrong in these discussions to run with two base kits, it really was important to me to design the set the way I had envisioned it, but I am aware that in some way I probably should have seen the cut coming from the beginning. Regardless, in my opinion, this was the time to make decisions about the kitting, and not months later after I had finished designing the set and especially not weeks before the group buy. I understand I do not have a complete knowledge of the underpinning financials that allegedly drove this decision, but I do think that this could have been planned out far more carefully.
I would like to clarify that I am not coming from this in an entitled way and I am still very grateful for the opportunity to run this groupbuy with NK. I wasn't even going to talk about all of this if it were not for Mike making the above statement. I just personally think that this crossed lines of how designers should be treated by vendors in this hobby. An important point here is that at no point was this set the intellectual property of NovelKeys. Therefore, it was never in their jurisdiction to make a decision to alter the set. Not to mention, there were many things that were not even considered before deciding to cut the set down, such as exploring whether the other vendors would be interested in buying out a share of the MOQ of that base kit so that it could still be made at the 1000 MOQ that NK chooses to buy base kits out at, or perhaps buy each base kit at 500 MOQ (instead of one at 1000 MOQ) and market them both at a slightly higher price so you're not as cashstrapped that way. To be clear, this is not financial advice, I'm just presenting the concept that there were avenues to discuss and that there were no discussions with me about it from Mike's end. Without doubt, NovelKeys definitely contributes a majority percentage of sales in any groupbuy they are involved in, but to not even ask if it's a possibility or explore other possibilities just seems very unsensible given how many people were upset by this change. Of course, I could have replaced NK with another US vendor last minute, but this was all so sudden and rushed that I did not have enough time to react in such a way, and I don't think it would have been fair to do that to any vendor so last minute. Which leads me to my next point, which is that I also think that this decision showed an overall disregard for the opinions of the community that directly support vendors like NK, and demonstrated that these opinions may be an afterthought, or not a thought at all, anymore. Yes, we are all aware, you made a server to connect with the community. Regardless, the proof is in the pudding.
There are probably a number of things I could continue talking about, but it's just not worth the time since the decision is already made and life goes on. For the sake of keeping the ensuing pile of BS manageable, I will also not be responding to anything else on this thread unless it is directly related to fulfillment or some other much more important details than what I've just been waffling about. So if you would like to continue this discussion further Mike, let's talk privately, thanks.
_______
Thank you to everyone who has supported this group buy, I really appreciate all of you and your kind messages. The base kit that was cut from volume 1 will be run in volume 2, and volume 2 will be run with a different US vendor.
- Nick