[IC] Irma (Survey Form Added)

[Jaxxstatic]

UHMW WKL/WK TKL
(Ultra High Molecular Weight plastic Winkeyless/Winkey Tenkeyless) keyboard

Working on better renders. Some of these are really old.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**UPDATE: Survey form added. Please fill this out https://goo.gl/forms/ayiwiBF3Ppz1Yx5g2

Expected benefits of this new material:
SOUND
Weight/heft compared to other plastic cases
Durability compared to other plastic cases
RGB diffusion

What is UHMW?
It's really dense, very abrasion-resistant plastic. It's commonly found in cutting boards and used as mouse feet (the mouse in your hand, not in the cage).
It's also used in rifle round body armor protection and strung into threads for rope climbing. The most popular textile form of UHMW is Dyneema, so google that if you'd like. It's been used to make bags that float on water but hold hundreds of pounds.

Am I using it for any of that? No. My experience with the material is this:

These are sliding pucks for longboarding (skateboarding). It's also used as pucks for knee dragging in motorcycling.
That also gives shows you the common finish put on UHMW. It can be refined much smoother or textured, though.

I also like the light diffusion characteristics of it. Here's a video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58OyYOz6rkE

Notes:
Mounting is topmount so far, but may switch to sandwich mount based on prototype.
No proprietary PCB planned. Will be based off Hineybush's A87 PCB with RGB underglow
Material is white UHMW for diffusion, black UHMW for sniper/ninja feelz
Black version will have larger base for sound & weight (white design is based more on underglow)
Black render will be done by Monday.
Plate material will be either brass or UHMW depending on sound/feel testing
Plate will be 1.5mm, either UHMW, brass, or some other plastic.
Screws will be magnetic, all same size
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Background:
I was a Korean airborne linguist for the US Air Force for about 10 years. Now I work in a hospital.
I carry my keyboard with me to and from work every day.
It gets shoved in my backpack or carried by hand from one work station to another a few times a day.
I don't have my own desk.
I want a board that feels like a Kustom,
but one that I'm not terrified of scuffing and ruining anodization,
or dropping and denting,
or scratching against a corner as I walk with it in hand.

Sometimes I want RGB.
In those cases, I want it to be diffused throughout the board itself,
not weakly reflected off the desk.

Feel and sound are very important to me. Most important, actually.
Looks are up there too, but sound and feel..oh man.
I don't want to have to add a weight or sorbothane to improve my case's sound quality.
Especially if it already costs so much.

Heft: a board should be solid and not move when typing. But it shouldn't be prohibitively heavy.
Sometimes, I like just holding my THE50 or CA66. I can't do that with my TX-CP.


This first board in UHMW is a TKL, well, because I don't have one, and I want one.
Next iteration will be based on what I want at that time.
Likely a modified Alice/EM7 board, well, because I don't have one, and I want one.
 
NO ISO planned right now. Interest check may change my mind.
No split backspace planned right now. Interest check may change my mind.
Google survey coming soon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expected hurdles:
Reliable manufacturer.
   So far, I plan to use a local (Northern California) manufacturer,
   so that if there are delays or problems,
   I can be on site to get details or help fix things.
Experienced manufacturer.
   UHMW is not often CNC'd into anything this complicated.
   Thermal expansion is a minor issue,
   but feeding is the more prevalent issue so far.
   UHMW doesn't turn to dust like other plastics when machined.
   It turns into spaghetti. This requires more attention,
   and constant resetting,
   which means longer machine time. Meaning higher cost.
   There are innovative ways around this, though.

Unforeseeable stuff. This is really sappy. Read at your own discretion.
   

More

I intended to get this project off the ground 3 months ago,
   however my wife nearly died at the start of this year.
   So my family has been in and out of the hospital for 3 months.
   With her recovery, I now feel like I can get this thing going and finished.
   This board is named after her. I almost ended up a single dad to a five year-old and one year-old.
   I almost lost my best friend. If you meet her, you'll understand why this board is named after her.
   She diffuses everything harsh about me.
   As soon as you meet her, you love her and don't want her to leave.
   You want to carry her with you everywhere you go.

Here's what won't be a problem: COMMUNICATION (Rant coming...)

More

Updates will be scheduled weekly on Fridays.
If there are problems, you will know about it.
If things are going well, you will know about it.
If I have personal issues, you will know about it.
If I can't give details on something, you will know about it.
But at least, every Friday, you will know what's going on and what the expected timeline is.
I also will NOT make up estimated finish dates.

This is just an interest check so far, but
I hate not knowing what's going on, especially if it's something I'm purchasing.
You might feel the same way.
Communication will be consolidated here on Geekhack.
Information on discord gets mired in chat.
Reddit threads get scrapped if there are disagreements.
Keebtalk doesn't have much traffic, and I don't like the format.
I'm used to this kind of forum.
If you pm me, and don't hear back right away,
your answer is likely coming on Friday or earlier in the thread update.
If you pm me, and I answer right away, feel free to share that information in the thread.
In regards to the material and process: this is new ground.
If I give out misinformation and find out I'm wrong, I will own up to it.
If you have helpful knowledge, I'd appreciate it if you shared.
I want to share the process, so other better creators can have another material option.

Again, communication is very important to me.
If I intend to take your money and create something, this is now my job. I will treat it as such.
My phone will have notifications turned on for this thread.
If it becomes too much, I will get help from someone.
But no matter what, you will get answers.

[_GMK_]

mmm... no pictures?

[LightningXI]

Looks like the image uploader broke, or your BBCode tags are not correct.

Aside, this sounds interesting for a new material option. Will stay tuned to see more about it. What's the expected cost?

[Jaxxstatic]

mmm... no pictures?

Got the pics going, I think.

[LightningXI]

mmm... no pictures?

Got the pics going, I think.

I see them now. To start off a discussion, is the plate going to be exposed to air directly? How does UHMW work that you've chosen that top part design (no top piece with blockers between each cluster)?

Also seems like I'd be able to see the switches underneath the caps where there are gaps between clusters. I'm not a fan of low profile-esque looks.

Another point: does that plate not support full right Shift?

[loud_asian]

The case material is pretty interesting.

I'm not much of a fan of having the spacing between the keys lower than the sides of the case though.

[SteffeMK]

I really like the look of this board. Depending on the price is I might join the GB.

Skickat från min ONEPLUS A6013 via Tapatalk

[Jaxxstatic]

Ok, putting up new renders this weekend. The case is literally supposed to look like an LZ CLS for layout.
My second hard drive crapped itself, and that's where my Fusion 360 files are at. These survived and I thought they were good enough to post.
I didn't look carefully enough.

SO..
Yes to non-split right shift support.
Blockers will be there between F Row keys and around the right section keys.
It's a high profile case all around.
Sorry for the misleading pics.

[OtherAndrew]

really makes you think

[_GMK_]

Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?

[Jaxxstatic]

Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?

UHMW can't be injection molded. It will be CNC machined like aluminum.
The price I'm going for is under $300, but I didn't put a price in the main post because I'm still working with manufacturers on the machine time.
Basically, I'm having to work with them to be more efficient to cut costs down.
I'm paying out of pocket for really expensive prototyping so far, but the price is going down with each iteration.

[Jaxxstatic]

The case material is pretty interesting.

I'm not much of a fan of having the spacing between the keys lower than the sides of the case though.

Got Fusion 360 back up. Local renders will take about 20 minutes each on my laptop, but I'm very tired (3:30 am here and gotta be up at 5:30am).
I will edit the main post tomorrow, but for now just think plastic LZ CLS or what have you. It is high profile.

[_GMK_]

Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?

UHMW can't be injection molded. It will be CNC machined like aluminum.
The price I'm going for is under $300, but I didn't put a price in the main post because I'm still working with manufacturers on the machine time.
Basically, I'm having to work with them to be more efficient to cut costs down.
I'm paying out of pocket for really expensive prototyping so far, but the price is going down with each iteration.

I was talking about injection molding in general. I was wondering why no one ever run a gb for an injection molded case. I like plastic too, so having a nice case in thick abs would be optimal and allow for infinite costomizations.

[Jaxxstatic]

I'm pretty sure mainstream gaming companies do actually injection mold ABS keyboard cases. I don't know for sure.
This is a totally different beast. The plastic I'm using, aside from the sound characteristics, is very durable.
It's one of the reasons polycarbonate cases can be sold for so much. Polycarb is strong.
UHMW is what many cutting boards are made of. Also, mountain climbing ropes, fishing line, motorcycle knee pucks, truck trailer bed liners, and even rifle round bulletproof plates.

[iaman]

Kinda diggin this. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.

And, additionally: sorry to hear about the personal stuff. It takes a big person to come out of a scare like that and hop back into work on a project like this, and I wish you and your loved ones all the best.

[mrpetrov]

Looks interesting.

What typing angle are you planning?

Will you provide a typing test in a proto so we can get a sense for sound before GB?

Thanks!

[Jaxxstatic]

Looks interesting.

What typing angle are you planning?

Will you provide a typing test in a proto so we can get a sense for sound before GB?

Thanks!

It's a 7 degree typing angle. I'm fastest on an 11 degree (or flat for some reason), but 7 seems to be a good middle ground.
I will try it out with the prototype when it comes and definitely post a typing test, sound test comparing other materials and boards of similar size, and a video to show light diffusion.
Videos are really important to me when I buy stuff online. I always check Youtube reviews and usually trust those over written reviews.
Thank you for asking!

[jan]

Interested!

[tex_live_utility]

Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.

Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?

[Jaxxstatic]

Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.

Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?

UHMW is difficult to machine for a bunch of reasons. Which is why I'm kind of putting myself out there as the guinea pig.

Working with it, though, over the last 200 days, I've come to find that the benefits may just be worth the headache.

The sound is AMAZING. Very deep and "thocky."
The hand feel is wonderful when it's smoothed out, it can feel like ceramic or be textured to feel like an anodized surface.
It always feels the right temperature in the hand, like many plastics, not bitingly cold like aluminum can get oftentimes.
It's very very abrasion resistant. It diffuses light better than any other plastic I've seen.
It's very heavy compared to other plastics, so for me, it strikes the right balance between portable and sturdy.

[hineybush]

Injection molding is obv used for keyboards

Big problem for small unit runs (<500) is per-unit cost and the up-front cost needed (molding, tooling etc). Molds aren't cheap

This is why you see OEMs do it when they make 500, 1k, 10k, 100k+ of each part and molds for each.

[Jaxxstatic]

Injection molding is obv used for keyboards

Big problem for small unit runs (<500) is per-unit cost and the up-front cost needed (molding, tooling etc). Molds aren't cheap

This is why you see OEMs do it when they make 500, 1k, 10k, 100k+ of each part and molds for each.

UHMW can be compression molded, but it has to be done slowly and in a nitrogen atmosphere instead of ambient air.
For UHMW to be injection molded, it has to be injected "using a microcellular injection molding (MIM) process to introduce supercritical nitrogen into the melt to
 decrease viscosity and improve processability while reducing degradation." leaders.4spe.org/spe/conferences/ANTEC2017/papers/509.pdf
Really, I think machining is the most cost effective for the numbers so far, like what Hineybush said.

[pixelpusher]

Quite interesting.  I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.

Completely unfamiliar with UHMW.  You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it.  I think I know the stuff you're talking about.  Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well?  I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches.  A case like that would be very cool.

[sJ1N]

interested, curious to see more about the material

also hope you're doing okay man regarding the personal stuff, wishing you the best.

[Jaxxstatic]

Quite interesting.  I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.

Completely unfamiliar with UHMW.  You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it.  I think I know the stuff you're talking about.  Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well?  I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches.  A case like that would be very cool.

interested, curious to see more about the material

also hope you're doing okay man regarding the personal stuff, wishing you the best.

Thank you! My wife is 100% now, and we're trucking along.
As for the material, yes, it does come in other colors, but they are completely opaque, not allowing any light through.
For people who don't want to use the RGB, this may actually be preferable. Suppliers so far have only given me one satisfying color, though:
BLACK.
All other colors, like blue or red that I've seen, look like...boo boo. Not good.

[tex_live_utility]

Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.

Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?

UHMW is difficult to machine for a bunch of reasons. Which is why I'm kind of putting myself out there as the guinea pig.

Working with it, though, over the last 200 days, I've come to find that the benefits may just be worth the headache.

The sound is AMAZING. Very deep and "thocky."
The hand feel is wonderful when it's smoothed out, it can feel like ceramic or be textured to feel like an anodized surface.
It always feels the right temperature in the hand, like many plastics, not bitingly cold like aluminum can get oftentimes.
It's very very abrasion resistant. It diffuses light better than any other plastic I've seen.
It's very heavy compared to other plastics, so for me, it strikes the right balance between portable and sturdy.

 I've joked about this on discord a few times, but how does it compare to HDPE for the same purposes?

[Jaxxstatic]

 I've joked about this on discord a few times, but how does it compare to HDPE for the same purposes?

HDPE is denser than UHMW, and well....this isn't very scientific, but when I tapped a keycap (one PBT OEM profile, and one GMK double shot ABS) against the block of HDPE, the sound was higher pitched than the UHMW.
Honestly, I have no experience with HDPE, but I've heard it machines more easily to a smoother finish, although both can be finished nicely.
HDPE is also lighter, so for my purposes, I prefer the heft of UHMW.
If you have any info that suggests HDPE might be a better keyboard case material, though, I'm open.

[LightningXI]

By far some of the nerdier discussions on plastic that I've seen and I love the engagement from the OP, I look forward to learning more about the material and trying it out, hopefully in the form of a keyboard.

[pixelpusher]

Is this the stuff that outdoor playground equipment is made from?

[Sylanthra]

You mentioned that sound and feel are most important to you, but you didn't mention what sound and feel you are actually looking for.(Or I didn't see it.) What are you looking for exactly?

[ossetepo]

As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates.  I'll be very interested to see protos.

[Peiweisgreat]

This seems dope and I have been itching for a non-aluminum case. Count me in my dude.

[dr_unconscionable]

I'm not normally into TKLs, but I'm very into your IC post. I love the new material, the name, and your philosophy on communication. Definitely following with interest!

[TuCZnak]

I'm not normally into TKLs, but I'm very into your IC post. I love the new material, the name, and your philosophy on communication. Definitely following with interest!

Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL, other than that I'd be very on board. Material looks super interesting and more "user friendly" than aluminium.

[japanesehorrorwriter]

I like everything about this. The kb, the story, the material, the reason for running this buy, everything. Will be in for one....

[piit79]

Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL

Thought both options will be available? I wouldn't be interested if it was only WKL. Otherwise, I'd love to have a hefty great sounding TKL! (Also, greetings to a fellow CZ mk enthusiast )

Another thought - I'm not a great fan of the stepped shape of the bottom of the board. Is the step mainly for underglow? In that case the black version (which won't be translucent) could have a different shape with no step. I know it would require two 3D models but it could also save a bit of machining time.

[tex_live_utility]

As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates.  I'll be very interested to see protos.

I imagine the plate would be a more standard material, or at least a laser-cuttable plastic like polycarbonate or POM. FR4 is also always a good option IMO.

[Jaxxstatic]

You mentioned that sound and feel are most important to you, but you didn't mention what sound and feel you are actually looking for.(Or I didn't see it.) What are you looking for exactly?

SOUND: Sound preference is very subjective, but UHMW excels at two aspects that seem very important to a lot of people:
1) It has excellent sound dampening properties.
2) It has a relatively low "THOCK" pitch when struck.

FEEL: Feel is also very subjective, but for me, my favorite board I have in terms of typing feel is my CA66, which is topmounted with a brass plate.
However, I will also be prototyping a UHMW 1.5mm separate plate and a top case with 4.8mm integrated plate.
Also, Hineybush's A87 PCB is pretty thick (the current version at least), so I'll probably cut myself a half plate and try that out as well.

Quite interesting.  I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.

Completely unfamiliar with UHMW.  You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it.  I think I know the stuff you're talking about.  Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well?  I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches.  A case like that would be very cool.

My renders are just from Fusion360, which I'm really new at using (I haven't touched CAD since AutoCAD 2000...in the year 2001). I'll be downloading some HDR images for better environments, but I'll also see about downloading another 3D rendering program.
The Irma WILL be coming out in a white and black version.

Is this the stuff that outdoor playground equipment is made from?

Yes. UHMW and HDPE are both used in a lot of playground equipment. UHWM for abrasion resistance, and HDPE for impact.

As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates.  I'll be very interested to see protos.

I'm a nerd, but definitely not an expert on plastics. Any wisdom or information you provide is GREATLY appreciated.

Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL

Thought both options will be available? I wouldn't be interested if it was only WKL. Otherwise, I'd love to have a hefty great sounding TKL! (Also, greetings to a fellow CZ mk enthusiast )

Another thought - I'm not a great fan of the stepped shape of the bottom of the board. Is the step mainly for underglow? In that case the black version (which won't be translucent) could have a different shape with no step. I know it would require two 3D models but it could also save a bit of machining time.

I like the way WKL looks. And I don't have any WKL boards.
HOWEVER, I don't have any particular attachment to WKL or blockers in gerenal. I'll be putting up the Google survey this weekend. Key layout will be a section I pay close attention to.
Also, the bottom is not particularly locked in either. People will be able to vote in the survey for white with stepped bottom, black with stepped bottom, white with fat booty, or black with fat booty.

I imagine the plate would be a more standard material, or at least a laser-cuttable plastic like polycarbonate or POM. FR4 is also always a good option IMO.

If UHMW doesn't work out as a plate material, I'm likely going to go with another plastic. However, so far I have hand cut two of my own plates out of UHMW, and I like how they sound and feel.
I did it with a dremel, so some of the switch cut outs are off from when my cat jumped on my desk or when I had to go chase after my toddler.
Expect sound tests soon, though.

[Jaxxstatic]

Alright, so to make things affordable but still be able to test tolerances (and still get what I want), the prototype for integrated plate is going to be an Alice one-off based off Yuktsi's open source files that I modified.
Looks like this:


As for the UHMW plates, they'll be cut for the TKL. I'm also looking into water jet cutting to see if that yields cleaner edges. Edge finishing on UHMW is literally someone waving an open flame from what I've been told. I don't know how consistent that would be for the switch cutouts on a plate.

[switchnollie]

The Alice has a nice case, looking forward to it.

[ossetepo]

The standard issue with UHMW machining is thermal expansion, which makes holding tolerances really hard.  The shop I've used advertises 0.01" tolerances as the best they can do for it.  The Cherry spec for plate cutouts tolerance is 0.002", but we've all seen plates with wider tolerances than that work.  I'm firmly in the "if it works it works" camp, so if your dremel'd plates are holding switches, then  . 

[tex_live_utility]

Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?

The standard issue with UHMW machining is thermal expansion, which makes holding tolerances really hard.  The shop I've used advertises 0.01" tolerances as the best they can do for it.  The Cherry spec for plate cutouts tolerance is 0.002", but we've all seen plates with wider tolerances than that work.  I'm firmly in the "if it works it works" camp, so if your dremel'd plates are holding switches, then  .

Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?

[Jaxxstatic]

Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?

Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?

The 4.8mm UHMW plate will have cutouts for switches and for stabilizers just like the Zeal Zephyr plate.
As for the top bezel, those thinner pieces around edge and the F-key row are 7.5mm tall, so they are still rather thick.
However, if there is any kind of warping, or if a TKL design with that row isn't feasible, I'm open to other layouts.

My goal is to see if the material is viable. I also wanted a form factor that doesn't require a proprietary PCB, but there are more options than just TKL.

[jacky]

Looks nice bro ,look forward more details

Good luck

[tex_live_utility]

Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?

Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?

The 4.8mm UHMW plate will have cutouts for switches and for stabilizers just like the Zeal Zephyr plate.
As for the top bezel, those thinner pieces around edge and the F-key row are 7.5mm tall, so they are still rather thick.
However, if there is any kind of warping, or if a TKL design with that row isn't feasible, I'm open to other layouts.

My goal is to see if the material is viable. I also wanted a form factor that doesn't require a proprietary PCB, but there are more options than just TKL.

This makes sense.

TKL is probably the most standardized since the a87 layout is public and well-defined for both PCB and plate. Then you can use e.g. the H87a PCB and get your own plate made, or use Hiney's FR4 plates.

Whereas 60% plates are only standardized for tray mount. And there is no standard (yet) for any other layout.

[ramblinrose]

Cool project! I'm curious to see how the black case comes out - Plastic definitely has appeal for better sound, just never been into the clear polycarb hype.
Would be cool if the plate was top mount - as you're planning on compatibility with the a87 layout, would leave open options for custom plates.

[Jaxxstatic]

Cool project! I'm curious to see how the black case comes out - Plastic definitely has appeal for better sound, just never been into the clear polycarb hype.
Would be cool if the plate was top mount - as you're planning on compatibility with the a87 layout, would leave open options for custom plates.

Topmount all plastic is the ideal. Hopefully machining tolerances let me do it.
Carbon fiber is also an option.

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

Yes.

[bthezebra]

Definitely looking for an ESD proof board for work.

[ossetepo]

Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?

Warping is a big issue with UHMW, but usually with thicker parts - the thicker the part, the bigger the delta T between the inside and the outside, the bigger the residual stress.  A nice slow annealing will prevent a lot, but nothing's perfect.

Another thing to be aware of when combining UHMW with other materials is the differential thermal expansion - you can wind up with a situation where when the combined product heats up a little, fastener holes that used to line up don't anymore.  We use oversized holes or slots in the UHMW part on some applications to give the material some room to grow and shrink.

[Puddsy]

I like the idea a lot, and it seems like you're passionate about this. The name sucks but the board looks like it'll be pretty good. I'm partial to brass or carbon fiber plate due to plastic warping. Something stiff for the top piece to anchor to might be helpful. 27 and I experimented with it a bit when we were working on a plastic board (that project is long dead) and it seemed to be helpful.

Of course, the issue with carbon is getting it cut in the US costs an arm and a leg, which is why I wasn't planning on offering them in my iteration of the Alice plate GB.

[Ensaum]

A couple of thoughts. I'm not clear on whether or not a non-wkl version will be offered, but I'd like a regular tkl option. Also, would it be possible to mix and match the top and bottom case colors? I think it would look nice to have a black top with white bottom for rgb diffusion personally.

[dr_unconscionable]

The name sucks

Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... )

[Ensaum]

The name sucks

Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... )

My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.

[Jaxxstatic]

Warping is a big issue with UHMW, but usually with thicker parts - the thicker the part, the bigger the delta T between the inside and the outside, the bigger the residual stress.  A nice slow annealing will prevent a lot, but nothing's perfect.

Another thing to be aware of when combining UHMW with other materials is the differential thermal expansion - you can wind up with a situation where when the combined product heats up a little, fastener holes that used to line up don't anymore.  We use oversized holes or slots in the UHMW part on some applications to give the material some room to grow and shrink.

The plan for screw holes is to do like Matt3O showed with his 3D printed board and using threaded inserts into slightly large holes heated up with a soldering iron.
Actually, one of the cool things I heard/saw that UHMW allows over some other plastics is that pieces can be "welded" with strips or chips of UHMW.
My thought is that if I make the holes large enough, I can correctly align then fill in the gaps around the thread inserts with UHMW chips. That's a long shot, though. Hopefully the manufacturer can provide tolerances that won't need that.

[ossetepo]

I <3 threaded inserts!

[Puddsy]

The name sucks

Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... )

My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.

u right

im not that cold a mother****er/poor a reader

glad you changed the thread title, this is much better

v interested in this

[Jaxxstatic]

I like the idea a lot, and it seems like you're passionate about this. The name sucks but the board looks like it'll be pretty good. I'm partial to brass or carbon fiber plate due to plastic warping. Something stiff for the top piece to anchor to might be helpful. 27 and I experimented with it a bit when we were working on a plastic board (that project is long dead) and it seemed to be helpful.

Of course, the issue with carbon is getting it cut in the US costs an arm and a leg, which is why I wasn't planning on offering them in my iteration of the Alice plate GB.

Agree on the "UHMW WKL TKL" part of the name. Changed the title.
I also like brass and carbon fiber and, price permitting, would love to offer them as options. I understand about carbon fiber in the US.
Honestly, carbon fiber itself is CHEAP. Even in the US. It's the labor that companies charge insane prices for in the US, so basically **** those guys.
I got hit by a car on my carbon fiber bicycle in 2013. Fixing the seat stay and chain stay in Santa Cruz were quoted as costing $300 per piece....
I just did it myself.
I bought the carbon fiber and epoxy online for $35, and I had a bunch left over afterward. I still have it.
I plan on using the manufacturer 10 minutes away for as much as possible. I can negotiate with him face to face.

The manufacturers I'm looking at for EVERY part of this board are small shops (often one man businesses).
It's been cheaper so far to help a small manufacturer experiment with new materials and limited tooling than to go with an "experienced" manufacturer, get thrown into a queue, and get a flawed product.
I literally get to drive down to my manufacturer if there is a problem. I think that's why China GB's are so smooth...for Chinese.
No negativity towards them at all. I just would like to have that here in the US.
Hopefully, in a year's time, with the prices of CNC machines going down, and from what I learn during this process, I'll be my own manufacturer.

A couple of thoughts. I'm not clear on whether or not a non-wkl version will be offered, but I'd like a regular tkl option. Also, would it be possible to mix and match the top and bottom case colors? I think it would look nice to have a black top with white bottom for rgb diffusion personally.

WKL is not locked in. I just like how it looks. It's not a big deal to offer both actually.
And yes. Mixing and matching black/white will be possible. Just realize, they'll have different bottoms (with different purposes).

The name sucks

Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... )

My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.

Yeah, the thread title was a bad mixup of sappy and cryptic. I'll do better.

[oldcat]

Images broken for me

[Puddsy]

i got quoted $130 for the alice plates by once place and didn't hear back from the second, so i see where you're coming from on the local manufacturing side of things

i also saw that you want to do an alice style board, so i'll probably hold out for that (and to see how this GB goes) but i'm very optimistic about this

i have more faith in this IC than i do like 90% of ICs, so consider this puddsy approved

it would be super sick if you could machine all the boards yourself

[Ensaum]

And yes. Mixing and matching black/white will be possible. Just realize, they'll have different bottoms (with different purposes).

Oh yeah, totally understand. I want the white bottom for underglow purposes and the black top for seated viewing aesthetics.

This IC came just in time though. I was just about to order parts for a kbd65 build that I originally wanted to do as an underglow tkl but I couldn't find anything that worked with what I envisioned

How flexible is UHMW? My vote would be for this as the plate material if it flexes a fair bit. I've been wanting to do one of those trendy flexy builds, and it would help with the harsh bottom out of my holy gsus switches.

[TeeAreEffedUp]

Hey there from another Air Force vet.

Anyways I just looked through the current board proposal and think it looks great. I love the story behind the name and I'm honestly pretty curious on how UHMW is as a material as I only have manufacturing/milling experience with Lexan and HDPE making mtb bash guards. Regardless, I love how my poly and acrylic boards feel and sound, so assuming this could keep in the ballpark of $300, I'd gladly be in for a board.

I'll be following this board fairly closely.

[japanesehorrorwriter]

If sound and feels are high on your list, I am certain this Irma will be incredible. In for 2. For sure.

[Jaxxstatic]

Not sure why the first one showed no blocker between F4 and F5. All standard blockers will be there.

[tentboy]

consider me interested!

[jollyeskimo]

Interested in a white standard TKL - especially if the price is around 300 including PCB.

[coffeeshopcoder]

interested ! (WK - Mix n Match ) would be nice.
Would be great if you post a self review - tolerances, sounds etc, when you get your prototype.
Would there be other colors offered for the top ?

[Puddsy]

Out of curiosity, what colors/opacities does UHMW come in? White is already an uncommon color for keyboards, but it might be cool to have a translucent version or something.

[Jaxxstatic]

Out of curiosity, what colors/opacities does UHMW come in? White is already an uncommon color for keyboards, but it might be cool to have a translucent version or something.

UHMW in raw form is translucent white but not quite clear like or frosted like polycarb (see render of bottom view).
Black is the other most common color for industrial use, but it can be any color as far as I know. However, any other color than white or black that I've seen looked horrible. But that may be just because no one tried to color match it to anything.
This first round will just be black and white. Those are also the cheapest color options. After this round, I will definitely look into color matching popular sets. I personally would love a Solarized Dark version.

interested ! (WK - Mix n Match ) would be nice.
Would be great if you post a self review - tolerances, sounds etc, when you get your prototype.
Would there be other colors offered for the top ?

I will definitely be posting a video review of the prototypes.
I've bought handmade high-end custom knives before, and one of the great things that many knife makers do is include a build log with either photos or links to videos.
I would love to do the something similar.
For mixing and matching colors and tops (WKL/WK): yes.

[PopSandwich]

Wow this looks amazing! I love the idea of a rugged keyboard that can take a beating.

Do you have a rough idea as to how much the case and plate will weigh?

[omitrix212]

Really digging the board's design! Sorry if this is a stupid question but looking at the renders, where would the usb port be?

[Jaxxstatic]

Wow this looks amazing! I love the idea of a rugged keyboard that can take a beating.
Do you have a rough idea as to how much the case and plate will weigh?

I will post weights when I get the prototypes in, for sure.

Really digging the board's design! Sorry if this is a stupid question but looking at the renders, where would the usb port be?

New renders will be up when I get some more "cloud credits" from AutoDesk, but the USB port will be on the back towards the right side if you're looking at the board as if you were typing.
The case will fit the H87a PCB.

[Jaxxstatic]

Friday update:

-Speaking with two prototype manufacturers here in Northern California and dialing in tolerances based off the designs and their experience with UHMW.
-Irma mentioned on Top Clack and MOI channels! Stoked!
    *Clarification for Jae: stiff feel is not what I'm going for, so sandwich mount and integrated plate are out. The concern was that thermal warping might be lessened with a thicker plate material. Also, the renders are done in Fusion 360. The material applied is UHMW. I'm just not great at renders.
-For sure not going with integrated plate based off manufacturing costs. Also makes sense for feel. I tested my hand cut plates, and the 1.5mm plate feels great.
-Negotiating with a certain US supplier for carbon fiber plate materials. Will have them cut elsewhere, though.
-Trying to work on renders outside of Fusion 360. I downloaded 3ds Max, but UHMW doesn't work in the materials database for lighting effects, even with Arnold or VRay. Any help is appreciated, but I'm about to give up on 3ds Max and try something else.
-Updated the main post with picture material reference and old ghetto video of diffusion. Please click here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99637.msg2729983#msg2729983

[TuCZnak]

I've just realized that A87 is miniUSB. Do you know of any compatible PCB that has USB-C? It'd be a shame to have such nice board end up with an old connector. Would KBD8X PCB fit?

[tex_live_utility]

Would be nice to have metal plates to go with this as well (alu/sts/brass). Maybe not as part of main GB, but if the plate files were released someone else could run it.

[Jaxxstatic]

I've just realized that A87 is miniUSB. Do you know of any compatible PCB that has USB-C? It'd be a shame to have such nice board end up with an old connector. Would KBD8X PCB fit?

I know nothing about the KBD8X PCB, but I'll look into it. Honestly, I still like mini-USB. I've had overcurrent issues with a couple USB-C PCBs. Never had an issue like that with mini-USB. But I understand many people wanting to move to one cable for everything and not having to look at orientation when plugging in.

*The USB port is something I'm really working on actually.
I was so stoked to finally get a good Yarbo cable, then tried to plug it into a couple Kustoms, only to find out the port hole was too small.
Or on other boards, the PCB was mounted too far away, and I had to shave off the end of a Lindy cable.
Or the port hole was too big, so you have to look and line up the cable anyway or risk jamming the USB-C male end under or above where you're trying to plug in.
Trabbit's THE50 is my favorite because no matter which cable I use, I don't have to tip the back of the board up or look and make sure I'm perfectly aligned. Many different cables easily fall right into place, and there's always a satisfying click when I plug in. I can leave my computer muted and still know my keyboard is ready to go.

Would be nice to have metal plates to go with this as well (alu/sts/brass). Maybe not as part of main GB, but if the plate files were released someone else could run it.

Plate files will definitely be released. I'll be testing out different plate materials on it. The ones that I like the best will come standard. I love it when "base kit" for a board has two different plates, so I want to do that with the Irma.

[Jaxxstatic]

"Friday" update:
The black case now has a brass weight optional insert. Black case and white case are substantially different on purpose. Sound is the main factor. But they are interchangeable. I do want to offer WKL & WK tops because WKL is oh so sexy, but I do use the Windows key a lot on Windows machines.
Goal is to have a prototype in hand before the 25th. The main guy I'm talking to thinks it's definitely possible. He runs his machines at 2am to 10am, then does checks so I can have updates by noon. His shop is a 15-20 minute drive away.
Nathan said on Twitch if someone splits right shift on a TKL, we can't be friends, so that has been updated
Saw Huey make good use of switch top opening on a stream, so I was considering doing switch top opening; then remembered that I hate it, so no switch top opening.
Brian made the moneymoney hand gesture when mentioning the likely price due to US manufacturing. He's right, but I've found a couple ways to cut down cost without compromising quality. First has to do with timing. Second has to do with timing. I will not elaborate.

[Sintpinty]

I like the overall look of the case. Looks very nice btw.

[pixelpusher]

Bah.  Switch top opening is so darn helpful.  Oh well, can’t win them all

[Ensaum]

I was considering doing switch top opening; then remembered that I hate it, so no switch top opening.

But switch top opening is super useful for lubing switches on an assembled board. Otherwise you'd have to desolder.

[godisafk]

Definitely into this! Do you have a way to describe the sound of this plastic with a video or anything? Glad to hear your wife is doing better and thanks for taking the time to be thoughtful with this project.

[TuCZnak]

Thanks for the update, appreciate you're sticking to your word about communication ;-)
Don't know how THE50 USB slot works, but you're right about lining up the cable, it's happened to me already that I jammed the USB-C under the port, KBD75 has way too large cutout.

As for the sound, what do you think about using silenced switches in this board? A good idea that'll make them more silent than resonating aluminium, or heretical nonsense that ignores the point of the board?

[Jaxxstatic]

Thanks for the update, appreciate you're sticking to your word about communication ;-)
Don't know how THE50 USB slot works, but you're right about lining up the cable, it's happened to me already that I jammed the USB-C under the port, KBD75 has way too large cutout.

As for the sound, what do you think about using silenced switches in this board? A good idea that'll make them more silent than resonating aluminium, or heretical nonsense that ignores the point of the board?

Sound dampening is one of the advertised characteristics of UHMW.
The thing that grabbed me about it is how deep it sounds when struck. Lower pitched sounds aren't as audible as higher pitched. (For example, in SERE school, they teach you never to whisper when evading. Instead talk in a lower pitched voice softly).

[menuhin]

Interesting material! Would love to see how light diffuses in a prototype compared to sandblasted Polycarb or acrylic

Two wishes:
1. Split backspace (I'm a HHKB user)
2. Top option to remove the left WKL blocker

[Jaxxstatic]

**Added pics of the black case in a WK version with brass weight to the first post**
Sound and heft (compared to other plastic boards) are the emphases, so the bottom is much different. Brass weight is designed in for prototype just in case all UHMW doesn't have enough heft.
Been messing with SKCM alps and discovered how amazing they sound in plastic cases. Working on Alps plate design (please give input on stabs & mod size suggestions).

[Jaxxstatic]

Interesting material! Would love to see how light diffuses in a prototype compared to sandblasted Polycarb or acrylic

Two wishes:
1. Split backspace (I'm a HHKB user)
2. Top option to remove the left WKL blocker

1. Split backspace is provided. Hineybush's H87a PCB has it and the plate accommodates it.
2. Interesting. It might look hideous, but I honestly never use right Winkey when it's available.
I'll sketch it up when I get the chance. It just looks like this in my head though:

[Jkshowman]

I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!

[Jaxxstatic]

I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!

Honestly, I don’t have a half plate board. But I DO plan on trying it out with the prototype

[Puddsy]

The brass weight design is slick

[TuCZnak]

Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?

[kinglukas38]

not much of a tkl fan but very interested in how the alice-like proto turns out. A keyboard from this material sounds very appealing to me

[6FeaT]

Been fascinating to read the discussions in here about plastics. Interested in this, for sure!

[Jkshowman]

I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!

Honestly, I don’t have a half plate board. But I DO plan on trying it out with the prototype

Eh, still count me in going to start saving up!

[Ensaum]

Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?

+1 That's a damn good looking case design.

[Damage]

Cool concept. I’m definitely interested!

[spctr13]

The black one looks great. I think I'd join a group buy for this.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[odd]

Im down to pick one up both for the uniqueness of the keyboard as well as the history behind the naming of it

[Jaxxstatic]

Late Update (sorry):
Manufacturer has the files. Files have been updated to "help" the manufacturer meet tolerances.
Case options you'll be able to choose (mix and match):
   -TOP - WKL or WK; black or white
   -BOTTOM - Stepped/rounded bottom or angled wide bottom (thicker);second option has brass weight. UHMW insert included to fill gap when you don't want the brass weight.
Plates:
   -So I need your opinions, please. GASKET MOUNT. Should I do it? I can get a supplier for gaskets, and the modifications to the case would pretty easy (I think). I don't see any downside to gasket mount. I recently had a (couple) Keycult 1/60, and the isolation on the plate is amazing. It feels like just the right amount of absorption without being "flexy" and inconsistent like using a softer material or half plate, etc.

[tentboy]

Late Update (sorry):
Manufacturer has the files. Files have been updated to "help" the manufacturer meet tolerances.
Case options you'll be able to choose (mix and match):
   -TOP - WKL or WK; black or white
   -BOTTOM - Stepped/rounded bottom or angled wide bottom (thicker);second option has brass weight. UHMW insert included to fill gap when you don't want the brass weight.
Plates:
   -So I need your opinions, please. GASKET MOUNT. Should I do it? I can get a supplier for gaskets, and the modifications to the case would pretty easy (I think). I don't see any downside to gasket mount. I recently had a (couple) Keycult 1/60, and the isolation on the plate is amazing. It feels like just the right amount of absorption without being "flexy" and inconsistent like using a softer material or half plate, etc.

If like you said it is an easy modification, i think gasket would be really cool on this board!

[Jaxxstatic]

Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?

A poll would be good. I want to provide all the options, but yeah...$. I'll try to put one at the top like the Primus thread.
Edit...uh, not sure how to add the poll. Any help?

[GigaFlop]

I'm not a fan of TKL boards, but I like the idea behind this. I'll follow to see about a potential 60% or 65% case in the future.

[Jaxxstatic]

Tolerances are the issue. If it doesn't work out for a plate or because of the blockers on the TKL face, then 100% I'm doing a 60% case. I don't like tray mount, though.
If tolerances work out, then I'm still 100% doing a 60/65% case.

[TuCZnak]

A poll would be good. I want to provide all the options, but yeah...$. I'll try to put one at the top like the Primus thread.
Edit...uh, not sure how to add the poll. Any help?

There should be an "Add poll" button on the bottom of the page (next to Reply etc.)

[Jaxxstatic]

Added a google survey form instead on OP

[Puddsy]

Added a google survey form instead on OP

filled it, thanks man

[Findecanor]

The name of the material is UHMWPE, not UHMW.
UHMW is the prefix which describes its characteristics, like LD, HD or Hi.
BTW, I effing hate polyethylene. Slick, and difficult to work with.
Wouldn't this be a slippery keyboard with frayed edges?

Honestly, carbon fiber itself is CHEAP. Even in the US. It's the labor that companies charge insane prices for in the US, so basically **** those guys.

I bought the carbon fiber and epoxy online for $35, and I had a bunch left over afterward. I still have it.

The labour cost is not insane. There is a lot of labour.
Also, professional carbon fibre pieces are made with a stronger resin, and cured in an autoclave: under heat and low pressure — not just laid down with laminating epoxy (for fibreglass).

[Jaxxstatic]

The name of the material is UHMWPE, not UHMW.
UHMW is the prefix which describes its characteristics, like LD, HD or Hi.
BTW, I effing hate polyethylene. Slick, and difficult to work with.
Wouldn't this be a slippery keyboard with frayed edges?

Honestly, carbon fiber itself is CHEAP. Even in the US. It's the labor that companies charge insane prices for in the US, so basically **** those guys.

I bought the carbon fiber and epoxy online for $35, and I had a bunch left over afterward. I still have it.

The labour cost is not insane. There is a lot of labour.
Also, professional carbon fibre pieces are made with a stronger resin, and cured in an autoclave: under heat and low pressure — not just laid down with laminating epoxy (for fibreglass).

Polyethylene is classified by density and branching. There is nothing else I know of that commonly uses "UHMW" as its prefix, so if you say "UHMW," everyone knows you're referring to UHMWPE.
My friends and I dealt with "UHMWPE" a lot when longboarding and for motorcycling.
It does not have to always be slick, although it has a very low coefficient of friction, nor frayed, although it does fray when machined. It can be finished, though, to be either smooth, textured, or even satin-like.
I think it's abrasion resistance and sound profile will be worth the nightmare of machining it.

For carbon fiber: I know there is work involved, and experience needed. But the prices are inflated here in the US. Like I said, I've worked with it myself. I know what's involved. Keyboard plates aren't like automotive parts or race bicycles. Yes, they really do just need to be laid with resin (in my case, I used EPOXY RESIN) and cured under the correct temperature with light pressure. That is easily done in my garage or kitchen. Vacuum bagging is cheap. Inside out electrical tape is cheap. Ordering from 159 | projectkeyboard is cheap. So I stand by my statement that US labor costs for anything involving carbon fiber are unjustified. I've also been to Calfee design and seen what they do. It's not rocket science or hard labour.

But honestly, carbon fiber is just ok as a plate material. In terms of sound and feel, it doesn't offer much over plastics or brass. It does look cool.

[LightningXI]

Form filled

[TuCZnak]

Filled out the survey
When do you expect to get the prototype(s)? If everything goes smoothly (and I know it often doesn't), when do you expect the GB to happen?

[PotatoTM]

Interesting material! Hope the total cost won't be too high

[Jaxxstatic]

Filled out the survey
When do you expect to get the prototype(s)? If everything goes smoothly (and I know it often doesn't), when do you expect the GB to happen?

Hopefully, the prototype can come by the end of next week. If all goes well, I want to test for at least 2 weeks, and if it feels and looks good, GB immediately after that.

[tentboy]

Filled out the survey
When do you expect to get the prototype(s)? If everything goes smoothly (and I know it often doesn't), when do you expect the GB to happen?

Hopefully, the prototype can come by the end of next week. If all goes well, I want to test for at least 2 weeks, and if it feels and looks good, GB immediately after that.

awesome!

[equalunique]

This material sounds very cool. I like that it's solid white/black so scratches on the surface don't alter the actual color.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

[Jaxxstatic]

Update:
Sifting through manufacturers. Prototype quotes are prohibitive in NorCal so far
For example, my latest quotes have been for almost $10K for a 3 day turnaround, or $7K for a one month turnaround... on a prototype. I want three. Others have just been making me wait, or lying about what they can do with the material.
So still looking. Also considering just figuring out how to get funds for a used Haas and do this myself.
In the meantime, I’m making a 60% UHMW gasket mount in Fusion when I can. Family and work are kicking my butt, but this is going to happen. The more I mess with the sound of the material, the surer I am that it needs to be made into a keyboard case.

[tentboy]

Update:
Sifting through manufacturers. Prototype quotes are prohibitive in NorCal so far
For example, my latest quotes have been for almost $10K for a 3 day turnaround, or $7K for a one month turnaround... on a prototype. I want three. Others have just been making me wait, or lying about what they can do with the material.
So still looking. Also considering just figuring out how to get funds for a used Haas and do this myself.
In the meantime, I’m making a 60% UHMW gasket mount in Fusion when I can. Family and work are kicking my butt, but this is going to happen. The more I mess with the sound of the material, the surer I am that it needs to be made into a keyboard case.

take the time you need for work and family! appreciate the effort and cant wait to see how it comes out

[tex_live_utility]

Tolerances are the issue. If it doesn't work out for a plate or because of the blockers on the TKL face, then 100% I'm doing a 60% case. I don't like tray mount, though.
If tolerances work out, then I'm still 100% doing a 60/65% case.

 
I think it's probably still worth doing a TKL with a metal plate even if you can't get the UHMW plate to work.

That said, I'd be happy to buy a 60% version as well!

[Jaxxstatic]

Found a couple manufacturers that can do gas infusion injection molding.
The prototype may be the only CNC'd version then, if injection molding is the way, in order to not have to make multiple molds.

Also, someone mentioned recently that it's possible to sandblast and cerakote plastics. They have to see if it's possible with UHMW, but if it is, they'd be able to do cerakote finishes with stencils, fades, etc.
This has me really excited, and if it's even possible, I would love to offer colored versions.
Also, UHMW being already very abrasion resistant, Cerakote would be a perfect "paint" job to stay in line with that theme.

[Puddsy]

Found a couple manufacturers that can do gas infusion injection molding.
The prototype may be the only CNC'd version then, if injection molding is the way, in order to not have to make multiple molds.

Also, someone mentioned recently that it's possible to sandblast and cerakote plastics. They have to see if it's possible with UHMW, but if it is, they'd be able to do cerakote finishes with stencils, fades, etc.
This has me really excited, and if it's even possible, I would love to offer colored versions.
Also, UHMW being already very abrasion resistant, Cerakote would be a perfect "paint" job to stay in line with that theme.

Cerakote requires heat treatment though, and I don't know if UHMW can stand up to the temperatures.

[pixelpusher]

Found a couple manufacturers that can do gas infusion injection molding.
The prototype may be the only CNC'd version then, if injection molding is the way, in order to not have to make multiple molds.

Also, someone mentioned recently that it's possible to sandblast and cerakote plastics. They have to see if it's possible with UHMW, but if it is, they'd be able to do cerakote finishes with stencils, fades, etc.
This has me really excited, and if it's even possible, I would love to offer colored versions.
Also, UHMW being already very abrasion resistant, Cerakote would be a perfect "paint" job to stay in line with that theme.

Cerakote requires heat treatment though, and I don't know if UHMW can stand up to the temperatures.

I know abs can take cerakote, at least the low temp version.  I don't know the temperature characteristics of UHMW though.  I think injection molding is pretty friggin awesome if that's the route we're going. 

[Jaxxstatic]

Cerakote requires heat treatment though, and I don't know if UHMW can stand up to the temperatures.

I know abs can take cerakote, at least the low temp version.  I don't know the temperature characteristics of UHMW though.  I think injection molding is pretty friggin awesome if that's the route we're going.

So UHMW heat tolerance is about the same as ABS from what I've been told/read, which is at the bottom range of what is possible with Cerakote.
I'll find out for sure, though.

[Jaxxstatic]

So NorCal manufacturing is OUT.
But still kind of sticking to my guns on not using an overseas manufacturer. Nothing against that at all.
I just think I found a guy that is knowledgeable about this community, is proven, and has GREAT communication.
Today was the breakthrough I needed.
Also keep posted for another simultaneous IC/GB if the material proves worth doing.

****AND REAL RENDERS INCOMING!!!

Today has been a real blessing.
This community is amazing.

[pixelpusher]

This reminds me of Ryan Norbauer’s pursuit for Cali manufacturing.  I wish you the best of luck, but it’s a tough job to find capable manufacturing in the US without spending a fortune.

[Jaxxstatic]

So, US manufacturer ✔ - out of California, but back to the Midwest, where I'm originally from. Prices are like a different planet.
Better renders ✔ - coming soon from Tesletron, who was an inspiration for this board in the first place with the Lumina, and its Corian case.
Plates in different materials ✔ - plate files will be posted, but the initial run, I plan to offer UHMW and brass. UHMW is very flexible at 1.5mm, but strong. Brass is brass.

When prototypes come in (hopefully soon), I'll be doing initial sound test comparison against my favorite sounding board--LZ CLS with STS plate--and my least favorite sounding board--CA66 with brass plate. I don't have a polycarbonate board on hand, so I'll be sending the prototypes to people who do.

The material is essentially what plastic cutting boards are made of. Someone suggested cutting vegetables on the back of one of the keyboards...

[Jkshowman]

I’m making a 60% UHMW gasket mount in Fusion when I can. Family and work are kicking my butt, but this is going to happen. The more I mess with the sound of the material, the surer I am that it needs to be made into a keyboard case.

super interested in that omg

[Puddsy]

So, US manufacturer ✔ - out of California, but back to the Midwest, where I'm originally from. Prices are like a different planet.
Better renders ✔ - coming soon from Tesletron, who was an inspiration for this board in the first place with the Lumina, and its Corian case.
Plates in different materials ✔ - plate files will be posted, but the initial run, I plan to offer UHMW and brass. UHMW is very flexible at 1.5mm, but strong. Brass is brass.

When prototypes come in (hopefully soon), I'll be doing initial sound test comparison against my favorite sounding board--LZ CLS with STS plate--and my least favorite sounding board--CA66 with brass plate. I don't have a polycarbonate board on hand, so I'll be sending the prototypes to people who do.

The material is essentially what plastic cutting boards are made of. Someone suggested cutting vegetables on the back of one of the keyboards...

Send one to Taeha Types

[Jaxxstatic]

Send one to Taeha Types

[livingspeedbump]

You have my attention.

[Jaxxstatic]

Friday update:
*Prototype is ordered and paid for. 10 day lead time for production, then it's shipped to me.
*Hiney has agreed to help out with PCBs. If there are enough orders, you can just get the PCB through the group buy, rather than from a vendor like was originally planned.
*I've got design ideas for the weight, but I'm also a fan of zero branding. I could just put all the design stuff into the packaging. Please let me know what you'd prefer.

[LightningXI]

Friday update:
*Prototype is ordered and paid for. 10 day lead time for production, then it's shipped to me.
*Hiney has agreed to help out with PCBs. If there are enough orders, you can just get the PCB through the group buy, rather than from a vendor like was originally planned.
*I've got design ideas for the weight, but I'm also a fan of zero branding. I could just put all the design stuff into the packaging. Please let me know what you'd prefer.

Wow, quick progress! Exciting development about the prototype. Looking forward to more soonTM...

So does that mean that h87a would be compatible? Or something completely custom?

As for the design, 0 branding is neat -- but I'd be open to anything that suits the designer's tastes.

[Jaxxstatic]

Friday update:
*Prototype is ordered and paid for. 10 day lead time for production, then it's shipped to me.
*Hiney has agreed to help out with PCBs. If there are enough orders, you can just get the PCB through the group buy, rather than from a vendor like was originally planned.
*I've got design ideas for the weight, but I'm also a fan of zero branding. I could just put all the design stuff into the packaging. Please let me know what you'd prefer.

Wow, quick progress! Exciting development about the prototype. Looking forward to more soonTM...

So does that mean that h87a would be compatible? Or something completely custom?

As for the design, 0 branding is neat -- but I'd be open to anything that suits the designer's tastes.

It’s h87a thicc boi compatible, so it’ll work with the thin and alps as well. Again, I really like Alps in plastic, so I’ll see about an alps plate

[p_blaze]

I really like Alps in plastic, so I’ll see about an alps plate

My man of good taste

[Jaxxstatic]

Sorry I missed the update on Friday. Here's what's going on:
*Manufacturer gave it a go, and... not successful. Honestly, they rushed it. I got a refund. Yay on that.
*I'm trying a different manufacturer. But honestly, I'm already working on the files for injection molding.
The slow annealing is what's really necessary, I think.
But another option would be to incorporate an inner brace/skeleton. HDPE is strong and maintains tolerances easily, while still being translucent.
I can use a HDPE skeleton framework with notches into the upper case, so that it locks together at a bunch of different points. I don't know how that skeleton would affect sound, however.

[pixelpusher]

Sorry I missed the update on Friday. Here's what's going on:
*Manufacturer gave it a go, and... not successful. Honestly, they rushed it. I got a refund. Yay on that.
*I'm trying a different manufacturer. But honestly, I'm already working on the files for injection molding.
The slow annealing is what's really necessary, I think.
But another option would be to incorporate an inner brace/skeleton. HDPE is strong and maintains tolerances easily, while still being translucent.
I can use a HDPE skeleton framework with notches into the upper case, so that it locks together at a bunch of different points. I don't know how that skeleton would affect sound, however.

Injection mold is very cool as well.  But what about cost?

I can probably find 4 different threads where I’ve been told injection mold is completely out of the question because of high cost. We’ve been asking for injection mold plastic cases in here for years... hell, maybe even a decade. If you find a way, you just made my year.

[Jaxxstatic]

Yeah cost is high, but like with carbon fiber, again I KNOW it's marked up for the attention to detail and trial & error that has to be done.
Even with fancy terms like "supercritical nitrogen-infused injection molding," it's really the multiple passes for press fits and guess-work for temperatures and flow rates that you're paying for. Time.
I need to have my hands literally ON the manufacturing. Like my own machines.
I've researched what I need, and I actually could do it on my own. Just need the $.

[pixelpusher]

Yeah cost is high, but like with carbon fiber, again I KNOW it's marked up for the attention to detail and trial & error that has to be done.
Even with fancy terms like "supercritical nitrogen-infused injection molding," it's really the multiple passes for press fits and guess-work for temperatures and flow rates that you're paying for. Time.
I need to have my hands literally ON the manufacturing. Like my own machines.
I've researched what I need, and I actually could do it on my own. Just need the $.

Didn't know the savior would show up on GH on a Tuesday morning.  Nice.

Anywhoo.... just show us where to throw the money.

[Ensaum]

Any updates in the past month? I'm still very interested in this project.

[Jaxxstatic]

OK!
My fault! I have been updating the Rukia thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100216.300
And it all pertains to the Irma project as well. BUT I should have kept updates in this thread also, even if just a hyperlink to the post in the other thread.
I am SO sorry for that. I didn't keep my word. I should have considered that people wouldn't necessarily be interested in both boards just because they're intended to be made of the same material. Different form factors, different interests.

Again, I apologize.

As for updates since the last post, I'll summarize:

Basically, UHMW has been too difficult for every manufacturer I've worked with to CNC. They either lie and say they can do it, then end up with warped prototypes that I have to get a refund for. Or they flat out tell me they won't work with the material. Or they give me unacceptable tolerances. Or they give size constraints due to the warping (no longer than 5"). 

Injection molding is the answer. But third party injection molding is way too expensive.
Nitrogen infusion is not as complicated as it sounds, though. And an injection molding set up, once done right is pretty easy to operate.

Highest costs are the machining done for the molds. It has to be an exact fit, so material has to be shaved off little by little, checking fit after each pass. That takes time and effort that fabs are going to charge a lot for.

My solution is that I should have my hands directly on the manufacturing...I should be the manufacturer.
So I'm using the Rukia (formerly plastic Alice) project to fund that endeavor. It's a polycarbonate Alice form factor for the first run, then UHMW down the line. Full carbon fiber sandwich is very likely coming sooner than anyone expects.

What I've come up against, though, is that for a first GB, I should keep numbers low to keep quality high. This also makes turnaround much faster, which is better for the buyers, but also lets me get moving on this--Irma--my first project.

Also, I made my profit margins waaay low because who am I? I haven't even done a successful GB yet.
But that leaves me with little to nothing to put into equipment and work space. I'm not intending a giant work shop or production floor like some kickstarters have attempted. I just need three machines and living room size work space to produce these keyboards. 

So that's where we're at. Rukia GB is about to drop soon. Rukia will help make Irma happen. This has only really pushed plans back about 90 days, though. I won't let it be a killer setback.

[Ensaum]

Okay, great. I don't mind a setback to get the board built properly. I'm personally not really in a rush bc Oblivion V2 will be going on this board in like 5 months minimum. Was just starting to worry that the board had been abandoned in favor of Rukia.

[minaknits]

OK!
My fault! I have been updating the Rukia thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100216.300
And it all pertains to the Irma project as well. BUT I should have kept updates in this thread also, even if just a hyperlink to the post in the other thread.
I am SO sorry for that. I didn't keep my word. I should have considered that people wouldn't necessarily be interested in both boards just because they're intended to be made of the same material. Different form factors, different interests.

Again, I apologize.

As for updates since the last post, I'll summarize:

Basically, UHMW has been too difficult for every manufacturer I've worked with to CNC. They either lie and say they can do it, then end up with warped prototypes that I have to get a refund for. Or they flat out tell me they won't work with the material. Or they give me unacceptable tolerances. Or they give size constraints due to the warping (no longer than 5"). 

Injection molding is the answer. But third party injection molding is way too expensive.
Nitrogen infusion is not as complicated as it sounds, though. And an injection molding set up, once done right is pretty easy to operate.

Highest costs are the machining done for the molds. It has to be an exact fit, so material has to be shaved off little by little, checking fit after each pass. That takes time and effort that fabs are going to charge a lot for.

My solution is that I should have my hands directly on the manufacturing...I should be the manufacturer.
So I'm using the Rukia (formerly plastic Alice) project to fund that endeavor. It's a polycarbonate Alice form factor for the first run, then UHMW down the line. Full carbon fiber sandwich is very likely coming sooner than anyone expects.

What I've come up against, though, is that for a first GB, I should keep numbers low to keep quality high. This also makes turnaround much faster, which is better for the buyers, but also lets me get moving on this--Irma--my first project.

Also, I made my profit margins waaay low because who am I? I haven't even done a successful GB yet.
But that leaves me with little to nothing to put into equipment and work space. I'm not intending a giant work shop or production floor like some kickstarters have attempted. I just need three machines and living room size work space to produce these keyboards. 

So that's where we're at. Rukia GB is about to drop soon. Rukia will help make Irma happen. This has only really pushed plans back about 90 days, though. I won't let it be a killer setback.

Thanks for the update! I just read this thread for the first time and I'm going to keep following you for potential future cases 60% or smaller


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tex_live_utility]

You're a madman

This is a truly ambitious effort, here's to your success.

[Jaxxstatic]

Haggling haggling haggling.
That’s been my focus aside from the Rukia GB this week.
I’m getting used CNC equipment, not only because it’s cheaper but also because a lot of the calibration has been done and modifications made to get better tolerances.
But I’m making sure I get it right the first time. I can’t afford to make a bad purchase.
Also haggling for work space. Only need a living room size space. It’s exciting though. Getting lots of help from really experienced experts who are intrigued by the project.

[Jaxxstatic]

Ok, so sorry it's been a while.
Updates:
-Will NOT be using a Tormach at all. HAAS all the way
-Suppliers for raw UHMW, liquid nitrogen, and aluminum locked in. Supply chain is very fast btw
-Found a space zoned for industrial use: much cheaper than I ever thought. I don't need a lot of space, so that helps. Also, made sure to check things like fire codes, ventilation, noise ordinances, and a billion other things to make sure I don't get hit with surprise costs after inspection. Just have to wait until the current tenants are finished with their contract, which is beginning of July.
-Irma is first in the queue for production
-Boards will be shipped as I QC them and have a second pair of eyes & hands on them. Luckily, I'm in an area with a lot of community members within driving distance

So FYI:
-Will be using a cold runner system for cost savings; everything has been calculated around this type of system, though, so I'm good
-Heating bands won't be doing as much work as I thought, and are also much simpler to source then I thought. Most of the heat is generated from the screw feeding the plastic into the mold
-I've adjusted the mold designs over and over and over again, but I think I'm finally done. The biggest hurdle was figuring out the correct draft angle to allow the machine to work without creating a vacuum when releasing the finished part. Cooling time was simpler than I thought, and I'll be overdoing it to make extra sure there is no warping.

Edit:
Oh btw, another added benefit of doing injection molding is that I can mix my own proprietary blends for colors. Also, since it's a non-FDA application, I can add graphite for added antistatic protection.

[stoic-lemon]

Oh, a bit of cinnamon in mine, please. 👌

[TuCZnak]

Whoa, you've moved that far? I stopped following the PC Alice thread, this seems like great progress! 

[KingOfMemes]

Oh btw, another added benefit of doing injection molding is that I can mix my own proprietary blends for colors. Also, since it's a non-FDA application, I can add graphite for added antistatic protection.

This sounds awesome, and the colorway would look absolutely sick. Also, scheduled updates are best, thanks for doing those.

[tex_live_utility]

Wow, this is really coming together. Great to see the updates.

[Sycomore]

After lurking on the Rukia thread and not being able to get a spot and now moving over to this. I gotta say i need to get me one of these boards, top of my want list for real.

[pnkpanther65]

Oh btw, another added benefit of doing injection molding is that I can mix my own proprietary blends for colors. Also, since it's a non-FDA application, I can add graphite for added antistatic protection.

light pigment additive for pastel color options; i fw that heavy

[Dakk1d]

Interested in this. Good luck!

[Keebo]

1A8 rep


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jaxxstatic]

1A8 rep


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Screamin MIMIs

[sarsaparillagorilla]

I'm interested in this drop!!!

[Jaxxstatic]

Update:

Well, things are really at a standstill in terms of what I can do outside of my computer.

For what it's worth, here's what I've done on my own to make sure the production models come out as fast as possible once I have the equipment set up in the new facility.

*Modified the draft angles to make sure the parts don't warp on exit.
     -For anyone that doesn't know, injection molded parts have to have what's called a "draft angle." The wall edges can't be 90 degrees to the mold base or they create a vacuum as you try to extract them. So the walls have to be at an angle to allow the part to be extracted. This is not a big deal for cheap internal parts, but for something like a case, the draft angle would be unsightly and even mess up fit for switches on something like a high profile top case for example. 
     What I did was research how Lego does their draft angles, and it's pretty ingenious. I've incorporated this into my mold design. It's complicated and more expensive initially, but it'll be worth it for the final product and in the long run in terms of mold durability.
*Researched annealing times so there won't be extractor pin imprints on the parts as they're pushed out of the molds.
*Designed a maker's mark that can go on each part that includes a bunch of information that will make the part classifiable under certain EU and SEA tariff laws to be exempt from big taxes.

Honestly, I'm doing a lot more on this that I can't even really put into words--there are so many little things that have to be accounted for in the design to make it work, but it's totally doable.
*

[Jkshowman]

still super interested!!!!

[pixelpusher]

Still amazed this is moving forward.  Year after year people say, “you can’t  do injection molding, it’s way too expensive.”  Really hope this works out.  You have my money when the time comes.  If you need to make a Kickstarter, you’ll have my money there too. 

[Abec13]

Yeah can we just get this made out of Ojoom slide pucks?

[Jaxxstatic]

Yeah can we just get this made out of Ojoom slide pucks?

Uh, don’t translate that puck name into Korean...

[LubedNReady]

     What I did was research how Lego does their draft angles, and it's pretty ingenious. I've incorporated this into my mold design. It's complicated and more expensive initially, but it'll be worth it for the final product and in the long run in terms of mold durability.

Wow. I like you.

Still amazed this is moving forward.  Year after year people say, “you can’t  do injection molding, it’s way too expensive.”  Really hope this works out.  You have my money when the time comes.  If you need to make a Kickstarter, you’ll have my money there too. 

I'm lubed n ready.

[vilagefool]

poke poke...how goes the progress?

[Ensaum]

Honestly kinda glad this is taking a while because I definitely can not afford this right now. If you wait until at least January or preferably February then that would be ideal.

[Jaxxstatic]

So January is looking like the actual timeline.
I can't even detail all that's been happening concurrently with the Rukia GB, but I'll give some general infos here.

* The space I almost signed a lease on is too small. Would have been nice because it's already zoned correctly and around the corner from my apartment. I'm looking at a new place, and factoring in cost differences to the business plan.

* I almost went through with a crowd funding campaign, but I opted instead to take a different route. I don't want to play with other people's money on something this unproven. However, the more I learn, the more I know this is definitely going to happen. And the final form will be really quite different than anything that's ever been put out in the community. I'm really excited.

* Normally I'd be excited to share all the little details of what's resulted from countless hours of design work, but I'm keeping design details to myself. Sadly, I've learned that not everyone is well-intentioned and magnanimous in the community. All I really care about is making this a reality and getting it into the hands of everyone who wants it.

[pixelpusher]

Truly excited for this project.

Out of the countless amazing projects going on, I have 3 on my radar as being unique and impactful on the community and this is one of them. 

Please don’t disappear.   

[wholypantalones]

Interested in this as well, glad to see it moving forward.

[LightningXI]

I'm always keeping an eye here

[Rob27shred]

I'll add my voice to those who have been keeping an eye out for this! Glad to hear the positive update!

[Visionaire]

Keeping an eye on this...

[TuCZnak]

So I guess January (and February for that matter) ain't happenin...?

[avtar]

What are the chances of a matching numpad happening in the future?

[aaronlau]

Very Interested in this ! Hopefully this can be a GB soon ! I love more TKL's GB's

[1Raku]

****kk I read the sappy stuff and now I feel like crying Glad your wife is doing better now!

[TimKeyLess]

Love you Jaxx. Wishing nothing but the best to the man who's giving us nothing but the best. Now gimme. 

[soloplayer]

lol what about rukia?  )