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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: aref on Tue, 01 April 2014, 14:46:32
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GH: I had occasion to use MX Red switches to type a document for a neighbor. I hadn't liked Red switches for typing; however, after having no choice at my neighbor's house, I found myself being more mindful of my typing/accuracy and they worked well. I, of course, had to use a lighter touch, i.e., more mindful overall finger pressure throughout each key-strike, than I use with me MX Blue and 55-gram Topre switches. The medium to heavier key switches allow one to be a bit more casual at grazing key-caps' tops and, of course, permit heavier resting-finger pressure because of the required gram force to actuate heavier switches.
I seldom read threads/posts discussing a preference for MX Red switches. Are there any GH members using an MX Red keyboard for typing documents or general use?
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I use MX reds for typing all the time, and I love them. They're probably one of my favorite switches.
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I use MX reds for typing all the time, and I love them. They're probably one of my favorite switches.
I have to ask, what keyboard(s) are you using with MX Red switches?
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I too love mx reds for typing. I alternate between them, and my 45g realforce. It was a bit of a difficult transition when I first started typing on reds, I was a lot more prone to making typos. I never let that deter me too much, because I always liked the smooth linear feedback from them, plus they were great for the gaming I did.
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Filco MJ2. Also happens to be my favorite board.
I've used one of the corsair boards too, that was pretty good. It feels too flimsy for me to love it, though.
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Am I the only one impressed that the neighbor had a mechanical keyboard?
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I too love mx reds for typing. I alternate between them, and my 45g realforce. It was a bit of a difficult transition when I first started typing on reds, I was a lot more prone to making typos. I never let that deter me too much, because I always liked the smooth linear feedback from them, plus they were great for the gaming I did.
Filco MJ2. Also happens to be my favorite board.
I've used one of the corsair boards too, that was pretty good. It feels too flimsy for me to love it, though.
Flyersfan1: I can see where one has to put it in the time to get used to MX Red switches and cannot allow frustration to dismiss the key switch. I can see where the transition might be a bit tricky. Kudos to you for staying with it.
TacticalStache: The KB I used yesterday was a white Filco M2; and it felt nicer than a Corsair K65 I tried not long ago--the K65's exposed look did it for me; but its feel and performance didn't make the cut.
A collective 'Thank you' for your feedback.
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Am I the only one impressed that the neighbor had a mechanical keyboard?
I had given her a Leopold MX Brown about two years ago and she loved it; but after a while she wanted a change and picked up a white Filco M2/MX Red. I asked her why she chose MX Red switches,
and her response was the tactile bump in the MX Brown began to feel as if it interrupted each key press; then she looked for a linear switch with approximately the same actuation as the MX Brown. And all this began with one mechanical KB. As a famous author, not me, once wrote, "Who'd a thunk it?"
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I use MX Red in the office, because it's the quietest mechanical switch.
I have no problem typing on it, although I do like brown or clear better because of the tactile feel.
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I use MX Red in the office, because it's the quietest mechanical switch.
I have no problem typing on it, although I do like brown or clear better because of the tactile feel.
I like linear switches; but I've become accustom to tactile switches; however, linear switches' constant and uninterrupted travel from key strike through actuation delivers a nice feel. I've used MX Black switches, but they become a bit too heavy for me in a short period of time.
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MX Red is the #1 Cherry switch, imo. I use it for everything. I do like blues as well, which is easier to type accurately with, but I still like MX Reds the most regardless.
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I may have to dig out the Corsair K65 and see if I can use it. Perhaps 'it' wasn't the issue; perhaps the user
was. I think I allowed my frustration to overtake my willingness to pursue an MX Red keyboard. A little frustration
in the way of a not-so-good result can taint one's judgement and place the blame on the object rather then the
subject. In this instance, it may well have been my impatience--'my bad'.
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I love reds for all purposes. My main work keyboard is (essentially) MX reds, and I type documents and code on it all day every day.
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Been using reds for typing at home for a few weeks and I love the smooth gentle feel of them, but I don't think they are as good to type on as browns (at least as far as speed typing test results suggest). That being said, I love the way the words feel as they emerge from underneath my cushioned fingers lol
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Been using reds for typing at home for a few weeks and I love the smooth gentle feel of them, but I don't think they are as good to type on as browns (at least as far as speed typing test results suggest). That being said, I love the way the words feel as they emerge from underneath my cushioned fingers lol
I love reds for all purposes. My main work keyboard is (essentially) MX reds, and I type documents and code on it all day every day.
If you deduct 100 WPM from your score, you'll have my typing speed; and 84 is my top speed on a good day. It's interesting to hear how much varied work is being done using MX Red switches. I found that after almost three hours of editing/rewriting a thesis for my neighbor, my digits felt fine, zero fatigue. By far the most comfortable key switch with respect to finger strain--what finger strain? The switch is smooth and takes little effort to actuate. I did find that I bottomed out far less with the MX Red keyboard, which likely attributed to less finger/hand/wrist fatigue and strain.
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I got brown switches on my first MX board ever due to the fact that on paper, they shouldn't create any more strain than red switches (or else I would've tried red first). But now that I have both and have had time to form a basic comparison, I can safely say I feel less fatigued and less affected by RSI while using reds.
When casually typing, I don't bottom out reds, but I do need to focus in order to do so. When I'm gaming or speed typing, I bottom out like a madman on reds, but the same could be said for any switch (maybe other than stock clear or greens).
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using reds now
feels quite good. I love it even though i almost always bottom out when i'm using it.
I use it both for typing and when I'm playing games
One thing I would like is for me to have some O-rings though, to reduce the actuation distance for double tapping, especially on the backspace key
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using reds now
feels quite good. I love it even though i almost always bottom out when i'm using it.
I use it both for typing and when I'm playing games
One thing I would like is for me to have some O-rings though, to reduce the actuation distance for double tapping, especially on the backspace key
I've tried red and black o-rings on various keyboards. I didn't care for the reduction in key travel, not even with the red o-rings, which reduce key travel the least (reds 0.2mm; blacks 0.4mm). However, of the two o-rings I've tried, the red was the more comfortable, softer landing, of the two. I don't game, but I do a lot of writing; and I find o-rings distracting because of the truncated key travel. I tried them for couple hours, but I was unable to adjust to them. If you want shorter key travel, you'll no doubt like o-rings on your keyboard. Thanks for the response.
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using reds now
feels quite good. I love it even though i almost always bottom out when i'm using it.
I use it both for typing and when I'm playing games
One thing I would like is for me to have some O-rings though, to reduce the actuation distance for double tapping, especially on the backspace key
I've tried red and black o-rings on various keyboards. I didn't care for the reduction in key travel, not even with the red o-rings, which reduce key travel the least (reds 0.2mm; blacks 0.4mm). However, of the two o-rings I've tried, the red was the more comfortable, softer landing, of the two. I don't game, but I do a lot of writing; and I find o-rings distracting because of the truncated key travel. I tried them for couple hours, but I was unable to adjust to them. If you want shorter key travel, you'll no doubt like o-rings on your keyboard. Thanks for the response.
I've experimented with key travel modifcations on reds to try and lift the bottoming out position to immediately after activation, but while it seems a good idea in practice, it feels terrible to type on.
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I got brown switches on my first MX board ever due to the fact that on paper, they shouldn't create any more strain than red switches (or else I would've tried red first). But now that I have both and have had time to form a basic comparison, I can safely say I feel less fatigued and less affected by RSI while using reds.
When casually typing, I don't bottom out reds, but I do need to focus in order to do so. When I'm gaming or speed typing, I bottom out like a madman on reds, but the same could be said for any switch (maybe other than stock clear or greens).
From what I've read about MX Red and MX Brown switches, the Red requires less down-force through the switch's travel compared with the MX Brown switch. Speaking for myself, Reds felt lighter to me than the Brown keyboards I've owned. This may be an illusion created by the tactility of the Brown and lack of the same in the MX Red. At times I, perhaps, tend to overanalyze a switch's mechanics. And just like testing any piece of gear, technical specs and bench tests cannot tell us how a device will feel; feel is pretty much in the hands, no pun intended, of the user.
I agree, after my recent experience, MX Red switches are far less fatiguing than many others I've tried.
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using reds now
feels quite good. I love it even though i almost always bottom out when i'm using it.
I use it both for typing and when I'm playing games
One thing I would like is for me to have some O-rings though, to reduce the actuation distance for double tapping, especially on the backspace key
I've tried red and black o-rings on various keyboards. I didn't care for the reduction in key travel, not even with the red o-rings, which reduce key travel the least (reds 0.2mm; blacks 0.4mm). However, of the two o-rings I've tried, the red was the more comfortable, softer landing, of the two. I don't game, but I do a lot of writing; and I find o-rings distracting because of the truncated key travel. I tried them for couple hours, but I was unable to adjust to them. If you want shorter key travel, you'll no doubt like o-rings on your keyboard. Thanks for the response.
I've experimented with key travel modifcations on reds to try and lift the bottoming out position to immediately after activation, but while it seems a good idea in practice, it feels terrible to type on.
I understand. Many of my 'this-is-a-great-idea-to-try' have turned out to be far less than great; and in some instances I've 'bricked' keyboards in the process. I've not tried dental bands in place of o-rings; but after finding them on Amazon, I may have to order some to see how they feel.
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reds + o-rings are really nice to type on. as others have mentioned, the light actuation force is really easy on the fingers to type on all day.
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reds + o-rings are really nice to type on. as others have mentioned, the light actuation force is really easy on the fingers to type on all day.
I may try the red o-rings on the MX Red keyboard. As I recall, I didn't have red ones when I first tried the Corsair. I just remembered, I only had black o-rings at the time, and they reduced key travel too much for me. Okay, now I've got another 'thing' to test on the K65--nothing like testing a 'whatever' to see how it performs on a keyboard.
I am going to get my Corsair K65 out of the stored-gear closet, disassemble it, clean it, check the soldering on the board, reassemble,
and give it another go. I'll have it ready to go tomorrow evening.
Thanks to everyone for being so forthcoming about your MX Red experiences. I appreciate your candor and assists.
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you can get o-rings on the cheap from ebay. i picked up a random one for $5 shipped. i really like them on the reds, but not so much on browns.
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you can get o-rings on the cheap from ebay. i picked up a random one for $5 shipped. i really like them on the reds, but not so much on browns.
I've got a pack of red o-rings here. After I get the KB cleaned, checked, and reassembled, I'm going to try red o-rings on a row of keys. I'm not sure I'll like the reduced travel, but I'll give it a go.
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I've only tried blue o-rings.. I've got a few red but not enough to outfit the board. I've also tried using washers and washers with o-rings and it just felt ... wrong.
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I've got the K65 up and running; and the MX Red key switches feel quite nice to me.
Why was I so disillusioned with this keyboard when I first tried it? By the way, there
isn't a 'ping' to be heard--this is a very good thing. I prefer this switch to, dare I say,
my beloved Cherry MX Blue switches.
The keyboard feels too good to add o-rings; I may give them a go, but not today.
Again, to those who took the time to submit helpful responses, "Thank you."
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I used reds for a while before realizing I don't like them. I can definitely see why people like them though. For brief moments when I was on a roll and I wasn't bottoming out they felt awesome.
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I used reds for a while before realizing I don't like them. I can definitely see why people like them though. For brief moments when I was on a roll and I wasn't bottoming out they felt awesome.
When I bottom-out, the switch feels fine to me. I find that I'm using a much lighter touch without giving a thought to how I'm actuating each key switch. I'm used to more forceful typing, by way of habit,
on my other keyboards. I find my typing is more fluid with this switch; and my accuracy is on the incline, even after using the keyboard for a few hours only. And my digits, ah, my digits...zero fatigue--nice.
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I used reds for a while before realizing I don't like them. I can definitely see why people like them though. For brief moments when I was on a roll and I wasn't bottoming out they felt awesome.
When I bottom-out, the switch feels fine to me. I find that I'm using a much lighter touch without giving a thought to how I'm actuating each key switch. I'm used to more forceful typing, by way of habit,
on my other keyboards. I find my typing is more fluid with this switch; and my accuracy is on the incline, even after using the keyboard for a few hours only. And my digits, ah, my digits...zero fatigue--nice.
Named "SSKGuy", has MX Red switch profile. I do not approve! >:D
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I used reds for a while before realizing I don't like them. I can definitely see why people like them though. For brief moments when I was on a roll and I wasn't bottoming out they felt awesome.
When I bottom-out, the switch feels fine to me. I find that I'm using a much lighter touch without giving a thought to how I'm actuating each key switch. I'm used to more forceful typing, by way of habit,
on my other keyboards. I find my typing is more fluid with this switch; and my accuracy is on the incline, even after using the keyboard for a few hours only. And my digits, ah, my digits...zero fatigue--nice.
Named "SSKGuy", has MX Red switch profile. I do not approve! >:D
Neither do I! Let's get him off GH! The French began a revolution over profiles, and heads rolled!
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Heh. All in good fun, the Corsair K-series are good boards (my first mechanical was one, for that matter) and look excellent. Not too much a fan of Reds, but all is taste.
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I've got the K65 up and running; and the MX Red key switches feel quite nice to me.
Why was I so disillusioned with this keyboard when I first tried it? By the way, there
isn't a 'ping' to be heard--this is a very good thing. I prefer this switch to, dare I say,
my beloved Cherry MX Blue switches.
The keyboard feels too good to add o-rings; I may give them a go, but not today.
Again, to those who took the time to submit helpful responses, "Thank you."
This board looks very nice. I am now typing in my Poker X with reds. I think I may like it better if it has a plate, and the resistance of its springs a little bit in the weak side. I used it for more than a year as a daily driver, but now I use it only at home. My main driver at work is an FC660M with browns. And now I really feel the difference.
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Heh. All in good fun, the Corsair K-series are good boards (my first mechanical was one, for that matter) and look excellent. Not too much a fan of Reds, but all is taste.
I figured as much; my response was quite the same, save the French Revolution, heads did roll.
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Am I the only one impressed that the neighbor had a mechanical keyboard?
Haha the exact same thing crossed my mind as well.
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I've got the K65 up and running; and the MX Red key switches feel quite nice to me.
Why was I so disillusioned with this keyboard when I first tried it? By the way, there
isn't a 'ping' to be heard--this is a very good thing. I prefer this switch to, dare I say,
my beloved Cherry MX Blue switches.
The keyboard feels too good to add o-rings; I may give them a go, but not today.
Again, to those who took the time to submit helpful responses, "Thank you."
This board looks very nice. I am now typing in my Poker X with reds. I think I may like it better if it has a plate, and the resistance of its springs a little bit in the weak side. I used it for more than a year as a daily driver, but now I use it only at home. My main driver at work is an FC660M with browns. And now I really feel the difference.
I quite enjoy using the K65; and these MX Red switches operate beautifully. The K65 has a plate, and, thus far, I've nothing negative to report--it's a good value for an under-$100 keyboard. I wasn't sure that I'd like so little resistance in a key switch, but I do like the lighter required down-force; and if I choose to use a heavier switch, I have alternative KBs. I am, however, enjoying this MX Red keyboard; and I'm not sure if I want to return to a heavier key switch.
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Am I the only one impressed that the neighbor had a mechanical keyboard?
Haha the exact same thing crossed my mind as well.
I have three neighbors I know of who have mechanical keyboards. But they're not as 'committed' to KBs as those of us on GH.
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That is very cool actually. I am trying to get more people over here to try them out. The guy sitting next to me in the office and couldn't resist after hearing MX Blues for a few months before he finally caved and bought a QFR Stealth, also with Blues.
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Using a Ducky Pro II with reds. It's great to type on. I'm much more a linear fan than I am a tactile feedback fan to be honest. I like blacks as well but found my hands getting tired after a bit. Reds have been solid for both gaming and typing and I'm content to stick with them for now.
Though if someone can ever convince Microsoft to make an Ergo 4000 with reds, I would be extremely pleased.
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That is very cool actually. I am trying to get more people over here to try them out. The guy sitting next to me in the office and couldn't resist after hearing MX Blues for a few months before he finally caved and bought a QFR Stealth, also with Blues.
Using a Ducky Pro II with reds. It's great to type on. I'm much more a linear fan than I am a tactile feedback fan to be honest. I like blacks as well but found my hands getting tired after a bit. Reds have been solid for both gaming and typing and I'm content to stick with them for now.
Though if someone can ever convince Microsoft to make an Ergo 4000 with reds, I would be extremely pleased.
ynrozturk: It's nice to have people living near you who share a common interest.
Niomosy: I find MX Blacks place too much strain on my fingers; and the result I make typing errors from not being able to nimbly move my fingers over the keyboard. Thus far, I quite like the K65 and MX Red key switches--I'm m not even looking into buying other keyboards or key switches. It may be that I've found the key switch for myself.
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GH: I had occasion to use MX Red switches to type a document for a neighbor. I hadn't liked Red switches for typing; however, after having no choice at my neighbor's house, I found myself being more mindful of my typing/accuracy and they worked well. I, of course, had to use a lighter touch, i.e., more mindful overall finger pressure throughout each key-strike, than I use with me MX Blue and 55-gram Topre switches. The medium to heavier key switches allow one to be a bit more casual at grazing key-caps' tops and, of course, permit heavier resting-finger pressure because of the required gram force to actuate heavier switches.
I seldom read threads/posts discussing a preference for MX Red switches. Are there any GH members using an MX Red keyboard for typing documents or general use?
I use the MX Cherry Red switch and have been using them for over a year and a half, closing onto 2 years now. I love the feel of the Red switch, how light they are, how linear they are and so on, they are just a fantastic switch. I've tried switching to browns, but I just couldn't do it, Reds are the switch for me.
I use them every day from typing to gaming, I will admit that from time to time I do make the occasional error on the MX Cherry Red switch but I think that is apparent for all keyboards and all keyswitches, but that may also be down to the fact that my typing rate varies from 90-125wpm, depending on how I'm feeling and what not.
I wouldn't ever get another keyswitch to be honest, apart from maybe the Topre 45g.
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GH: I had occasion to use MX Red switches to type a document for a neighbor. I hadn't liked Red switches for typing; however, after having no choice at my neighbor's house, I found myself being more mindful of my typing/accuracy and they worked well. I, of course, had to use a lighter touch, i.e., more mindful overall finger pressure throughout each key-strike, than I use with me MX Blue and 55-gram Topre switches. The medium to heavier key switches allow one to be a bit more casual at grazing key-caps' tops and, of course, permit heavier resting-finger pressure because of the required gram force to actuate heavier switches.
I seldom read threads/posts discussing a preference for MX Red switches. Are there any GH members using an MX Red keyboard for typing documents or general use?
I use the MX Cherry Red switch and have been using them for over a year and a half, closing onto 2 years now. I love the feel of the Red switch, how light they are, how linear they are and so on, they are just a fantastic switch. I've tried switching to browns, but I just couldn't do it, Reds are the switch for me.
I use them every day from typing to gaming, I will admit that from time to time I do make the occasional error on the MX Cherry Red switch but I think that is apparent for all keyboards and all keyswitches, but that may also be down to the fact that my typing rate varies from 90-125wpm, depending on how I'm feeling and what not.
I wouldn't ever get another keyswitch to be honest, apart from maybe the Topre 45g.
I'll make occasional errors regardless of the key switch I'm using. My WPM is less than yours, my best is around 85 WPM these days. I find I type more accurately on this MX Red keyboard than on my other KBs. I think it has to do with using a lighter linear switch and the lack of finger strain; and my key strikes are a bit lighter because it takes so much less force to actuate the switch. I'm really pleased with MX Red switches and this keyboard.
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GH: I had occasion to use MX Red switches to type a document for a neighbor. I hadn't liked Red switches for typing; however, after having no choice at my neighbor's house, I found myself being more mindful of my typing/accuracy and they worked well. I, of course, had to use a lighter touch, i.e., more mindful overall finger pressure throughout each key-strike, than I use with me MX Blue and 55-gram Topre switches. The medium to heavier key switches allow one to be a bit more casual at grazing key-caps' tops and, of course, permit heavier resting-finger pressure because of the required gram force to actuate heavier switches.
I seldom read threads/posts discussing a preference for MX Red switches. Are there any GH members using an MX Red keyboard for typing documents or general use?
I use the MX Cherry Red switch and have been using them for over a year and a half, closing onto 2 years now. I love the feel of the Red switch, how light they are, how linear they are and so on, they are just a fantastic switch. I've tried switching to browns, but I just couldn't do it, Reds are the switch for me.
I use them every day from typing to gaming, I will admit that from time to time I do make the occasional error on the MX Cherry Red switch but I think that is apparent for all keyboards and all keyswitches, but that may also be down to the fact that my typing rate varies from 90-125wpm, depending on how I'm feeling and what not.
I wouldn't ever get another keyswitch to be honest, apart from maybe the Topre 45g.
I'll make occasional errors regardless of the key switch I'm using. My WPM is less than yours, my best is around 85 WPM these days. I find I type more accurately on this MX Red keyboard than on my other KBs. I think it has to do with using a lighter linear switch and the lack of finger strain; and my key strikes are a bit lighter because it takes so much less force to actuate the switch. I'm really pleased with MX Red switches and this keyboard.
I find the most common mistake that I make is having my thumb on the space bar and sometimes I press it down without realising and what not.
Other mistakes I make are that of moving to the next key stroke because I think that I've pressed that key, so for example if i'm spelling example, sometimes it would come out like exampel type thing, but that's just me being too eager.
I think reds are also a subject of their keyboard, like I've got a Noppoo choc mini and I've also used the Filco TKL and the filco reds, while they are the same switch, it felt like they were a better version of reds because of the build quality of the filco in comparison to the Noppoo. (I wish the noppoo had a backplate /sadface)
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I find the most common mistake that I make is having my thumb on the space bar and sometimes I press it down without realising and what not.
Other mistakes I make are that of moving to the next key stroke because I think that I've pressed that key, so for example if i'm spelling example, sometimes it would come out like exampel type thing, but that's just me being too eager.
I think reds are also a subject of their keyboard, like I've got a Noppoo choc mini and I've also used the Filco TKL and the filco reds, while they are the same switch, it felt like they were a better version of reds because of the build quality of the filco in comparison to the Noppoo. (I wish the noppoo had a backplate /sadface)
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I can tell you what I did with my keyboard, it may help you with the space-bar issue. I prefer elevation under the back of my keybaord, but I don't use the keyboard's legs. I use self-stick felt pads I pick up from Home Depot, Lowe's, or a hardware store. I place two columns of three stacked pads at either end of the keyboard. I find the pitch allows my hands to float freely over the keys; and my thumbs, because of the pitch, rest gently on the space bar. So I never have accidental space-bar strikes. When it comes to elevation, preferences will vary; and some like a flat keyboard. For me, I find the elevation works.
I also have miscues when typing; but it's because I'm typing faster than I should. I know the best way to type is with a tempo, fast or slow, but when we're trying to keep up with our thoughts, it's easy to forget about form and focus only on getting one's prose on the screen.
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I also have miscues when typing; but it's because I'm typing faster than I should. I know the best way to type is with a tempo, fast or slow, but when we're trying to keep up with our thoughts, it's easy to forget about form and focus only on getting one's prose on the screen.
Wrona says this, and I agree, that you should type every word to the maximum speed possible and slow down on difficult words. It makes no sense deliberately slowing your typing speed just to maintain some sort of tempo, it's not music and you don't get style points. Take advantage of what's easy and take some time on the few more difficult words.
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Wrona says this, and I agree, that you should type every word to the maximum speed possible and slow down on difficult words. It makes no sense deliberately slowing your typing speed just to maintain some sort of tempo, it's not music and you don't get style points. Take advantage of what's easy and take some time on the few more difficult words.
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Wrona is an exceptional typist. I think everyone has to find what works best for them. I tried the tempo thing, but could never stay at one pace. I think it natural for most anyone to type familiar words a bit faster than more difficult and unfamiliar words. Really, style points? That was a necessary comment? C'mon. All we're doing here is passing along information. If it's worthy, hold on to it; and if not, discard it. It's that simple.
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I wasn't being rude, I was just giving reasons to which you would want to type at your maximum speed depending on the word. Also, selling your Topre because of an MX Red.. Now that's dedication.
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I wasn't being rude, I was just giving reasons to which you would want to type at your maximum speed depending on the word. Also, selling your Topre because of an MX Red.. Now that's dedication.
No offense taken. I think many of us type as fast as we're able in an effort to increase our speed. The one video I watched where Wrona was competing, I was amazed at rapidly he was able to transfer what he sees on a screen to a keyboard. He's a prodigy at the keyboard.
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I used reds for a while before realizing I don't like them. I can definitely see why people like them though. For brief moments when I was on a roll and I wasn't bottoming out they felt awesome.
When I bottom-out, the switch feels fine to me. I find that I'm using a much lighter touch without giving a thought to how I'm actuating each key switch. I'm used to more forceful typing, by way of habit,
on my other keyboards. I find my typing is more fluid with this switch; and my accuracy is on the incline, even after using the keyboard for a few hours only. And my digits, ah, my digits...zero fatigue--nice.
I should have elaborated a little more. They feel just like other switches when bottoming out. I just don't like bottoming out and with reds that is too easy for me. Also, on the flipside of that, I had too many accidental keypresses. Nice switch, just not for me.
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Reds are probably my favorite MX switch. Clicky and tactile switches are fun, but when it comes to general work, typing, and gaming, MX reds just have that longer longevity of use for me. Clickiness can be annoying after awhile and an inconvenience at night. I think red switches by themselves are great switches for office workers and for those who live with others who want to get into the mechanical keyboard game but don't want to break the bank with Topre. However, I wouldn't recommend reds to previous low-profile rubber dome users. I use to be big on key-grazing when touch typing (I didn't use home row) before I switched to mechanical keyboards. Initially, I really hated browns and reds because lightly grazing or resting your fingers on these switches would cause them to actuate, but after a year of using mechanical keyboards (eventually eliminating most of my key-resting and key-grazing habits), I've found them to be quite enjoyable and useful.
Lubing, dampening, and using slightly heavier springs on my MX reds definitely put it up to par with my silenced and lubed 55g 87U. My reds just lack that subtle Topre thock when bottoming out. Of course, reds by themselves are worlds apart from unsilenced Topre.
If you plan to dampen your MX reds, I suggest trying out different O-rings, landing pads, and case dampeners (e.g shelf liner). I personally like O-rings that are somewhat squishy because they bottom-out softly and create less finger fatigue for me.
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When I first used Reds I made many typing errors and wasn't able to get away from it. But when I returned to the key switch, I lightened my touch and all went well. I used to be heavy handed on my KBs; but once I began feeling the effects form using heavier switches (finger strain/fatigue), I suddenly have a lighter touch--I just can't take the pounding I had been doing on heavier-switch keyboards, which was my doing rather than a mandate because of the switches I was using.
Key switches are a matter of personal preference; and switching from heavier to lighter or the converse, depending on one's preference, can be tricky or simply feel non-doable. I understand what you're saying: Reds are difficult to get used to if one prefers heavier switches. I think age and decades, many decades, of typing have taken a toll on my hands; and it was time for me to go to a lighter switch--there's an admission of aging from me--man, talk about 'Reeling in the Years (good, old, Steely Dan song).
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When I first used Reds I made many typing errors and wasn't able to get away from it. But when I returned to the key switch, I lightened my touch and all went well. I used to be heavy handed on my KBs; but once I began feeling the effects form using heavier switches (finger strain/fatigue), I suddenly have a lighter touch--I just can't take the pounding I had been doing on heavier-switch keyboards, which was my doing rather than a mandate because of the switches I was using.
Key switches are a matter of personal preference; and switching from heavier to lighter or the converse, depending on one's preference, can be tricky or simply feel non-doable. I understand what you're saying: Reds are difficult to get used to if one prefers heavier switches. I think age and decades, many decades, of typing have taken a toll on my hands; and it was time for me to go to a lighter switch--there's an admission of aging from me--man, talk about 'Reeling in the Years (good, old, Steely Dan song).
Have you tried the lighter Topre switches? I'm curious as I love red switches but haven't had the opportunity to try topre yet.
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Have you tried the lighter Topre switches? I'm curious as I love red switches but haven't had the opportunity to try topre yet.
I had a 45-gram 87U. It's a good board, but I convinced that I preferred Topre's 55-gram switch and sold my 45g KB. Of course,
now I question whether or not I should have held on to that KB. In truth, I think I prefer linear switches to the subtle tactility of
Topre switches. The only way I'd know for sure is buy yet another 87U and give it a second go; and for now, at least, I'm really
enjoying and into this Corsair board.
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I've got the K65 up and running; and the MX Red key switches feel quite nice to me.
Why was I so disillusioned with this keyboard when I first tried it? By the way, there
isn't a 'ping' to be heard--this is a very good thing. I prefer this switch to, dare I say,
my beloved Cherry MX Blue switches.
The keyboard feels too good to add o-rings; I may give them a go, but not today.
Again, to those who took the time to submit helpful responses, "Thank you."
This board looks very nice. I am now typing in my Poker X with reds. I think I may like it better if it has a plate, and the resistance of its springs a little bit in the weak side. I used it for more than a year as a daily driver, but now I use it only at home. My main driver at work is an FC660M with browns. And now I really feel the difference.
I chose to box my CMQFR/MX Blue this afternoon and decided to see how it felt after using the MX Red KB exclusively. And like you with MX Brown switches, the difference in feel, and sound with the Blues, was marked. My preference, without reservation, is Cherry's MX Red switch. It's much more comfortable, to me, than their tactile Blue; and it, MX Red, is much more pleasant to listen to when typing. I think it's time for some chocolate.
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I just used my red board to type all my finals and thesis paper, but mostly because I was too hurried/lazy to switch it out. But what's interesting is that I just noticed after a week of just using this board, it's actively changed my typing style. My presses are more darting and light, where as generally I jam down with the force of a thousand suns. Just an observation I thought was mildly interesting.
As for actually using one to write, it takes some adaptation. If you aren't used to them you will likely make many errors due to finger roll and the low actuation of the switch, but I've found that after a while of using solely a red board I'm actually typing noticeably faster. Also the amount of errors has reduced drastically, but still more than with a stiffer switch. I suppose you could make the argument that I should just learn to not bottom out of other switch types as well.
One thing that really bothers me is because I'm not bottoming out, my fingers roll over other keys more often and I regularly hit the caps lock by mistake. If I were to make any changes it would be to make the modifiers and space bar a slightly heavier switch type. Also: lube your reds. It's like consolidated sex for your fingers.
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I just used my red board to type all my finals and thesis paper, but mostly because I was too hurried/lazy to switch it out. But what's interesting is that I just noticed after a week of just using this board, it's actively changed my typing style. My presses are more darting and light, where as generally I jam down with the force of a thousand suns. Just an observation I thought was mildly interesting.
As for actually using one to write, it takes some adaptation. If you aren't used to them you will likely make many errors due to finger roll and the low actuation of the switch, but I've found that after a while of using solely a red board I'm actually typing noticeably faster. Also the amount of errors has reduced drastically, but still more than with a stiffer switch. I suppose you could make the argument that I should just learn to not bottom out of other switch types as well.
One thing that really bothers me is because I'm not bottoming out, my fingers roll over other keys more often and I regularly hit the caps lock by mistake. If I were to make any changes it would be to make the modifiers and space bar a slightly heavier switch type. Also: lube your reds. It's like consolidated sex for your fingers.
Your final comment is killer!
I had the same finding about using MX Red switches exclusively. One's typing style changes with use and, for me, I don't bottom out as forcefully as I had been when typing with heavier switches. It's taking me a bit to become completely at home with the switch, but with each several hours of use, a bit more headway is made. I do prefer how my fingers feel after writing sessions.
I bottom-out as a matter of course; but, with the Reds I occasionally don't; however, the majority of the time I do. However, as I said, I do it almost 'keyboard sotto voce' compared with heavier switches. MX Red switches are unique experience for those of us who have been used to 'banging' away on plunge-me key switches. I actually have a growing preference for this 45-gram switch.
Congratulations on finishing your thesis. When I did mine we had non-correcting typewriters, no word processors in those days; and it was a bear. I think typing one's thesis on a typewriter was the genesis for 30-gallon trash cans!
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Type-writing a thesis. :/ Hardcore!
I'm mildly interested in trying Topre, but I thin I'll wait until CM release more variations of their Novatouch ... or until Leopold have local stockists here.
I really can't decide which switch I like the best. I definitely prefer reds for gaming. I have much the same experiences with them for typing as you guys have mentioned. It "feels" nice and you feel like you're typing faster the way that the key presses effortlessly speed by.
Speed typing tests say otherwise though. I type faster and more accurately on browns and blues.
When you say lubing reds is good ... can you describe the difference it makes? My red board is about 3 weeks old and is probably still factory lubed, right?
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When you say lubing reds is good ... can you describe the difference it makes? My red board is about 3 weeks old and is probably still factory lubed, right?
With reds you really only need a little bit of lube, but when done properly it eliminates that initial bit of scratch on the switch press. I use this with some 40A-L o-rings for the full effect on my Ducky YotD. Very very smooth, very light, soft landing even when you do bottom out. I always wanna say my ergo-clear board is the favorite, but after digging this one of of the closet and using it for the past few weeks I'd forgot how different in a good way this board is. Probably tied for my favorite feeling switch with C BS switches on the model F, which is almost the complete opposite from what these are.
Also, which companies lube stock switches?
The biggest plus is with lubed and ringed reds the board becomes just an extension of your fingers, to a point. Lightly felt, very quiet, and no distracting clicks. Just me and the board.
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I'm new to GeekHack and keyboard modding, myself. I thought the switches would be lubed at the factory? I guess not?
I have 40A-R (blue) o-rings which I haven't tried on red switches yet. I wasn't a huge fan on brown (ended up taking them off). I felt that the reduction in travel distance interfered with the purpose of the bump tactility by increasing the rate of bottoming out. Also bottoming out felt less satisfying without the solid thock.
Can one simply squirt lube into the switch while still connected to the pcb? I'm not good at soldering and wouldn't want to do the whole board just to lube the switches a bit.
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Tried red o-rings
I tried several red o-rings on the MX Red switches; I didn't care for the reduction in key travel. The o-rings reduced key-switch sound when bottoming out the dampened keys, but the reduced travel felt too short for me, as if I wasn't completing each key stroke. If I were the kind of typist who just touched each key, they'd have been fine. But I do strike each key with a full depression. I might be able to get used to them, but I prefer the 'naked' key switch. Red o-rings reduce key travel by 0.2mm, the least of all the o-rings I've seen (red, blue, black).
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Can one simply squirt lube into the switch while still connected to the pcb? I'm not good at soldering and wouldn't want to do the whole board just to lube the switches a bit.
No no no, please don't do that you'll ruin your board, the only proper way to lube a switch is by taking it apart and you need to be very careful about the amounts and type of lube you use. There are members here who offer services for lubing which includes resoldering. I had mine done by Gupgup, who did a great job. Would recommend.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40612.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40612.0)
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Can one simply squirt lube into the switch while still connected to the pcb? I'm not good at soldering and wouldn't want to do the whole board just to lube the switches a bit.
No no no, please don't do that you'll ruin your board, the only proper way to lube a switch is by taking it apart and you need to be very careful about the amounts and type of lube you use. There are members here who offer services for lubing which includes resoldering. I had mine done by Gupgup, who did a great job. Would recommend.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40612.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40612.0)
Oh I see! Well thanks for the info. I'm in Australia, so coudln't really justify the back and forth shipping. If I ever build a board up from scratch or order one from GON etc I'll be sure to look more into lubing. :)
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NoisyTurtle--thanks for all the information. I don't feel comfortable with disassembling my key switches in order to lube them; so I'll keep the link you sent in my resource file. Appreciate the referral.
An unsolicited update on my observations on the K65 keyboard and MX Red switch
The more I use them, the more I like them and the more I getting into the feel of this linear switch (and the fewer errors I make coming from heavier switches). Also, this exposed keyboard on the Corsair K65 feels more expansive to me than a closed keyboard, such as a Filco M2 TKL or CMQFR TKL. Not dealing with an upper case surrounding the key caps allows my hands to go against the first row of keys rather than the perimeter of an upper keyboard case. I quite like the feel of an exposed KB; so much so that I'm not sure I would return to a closed case w/o getting an exposed aftermarket housing for it. One more bit on the MX Red switch: I prefer the responsiveness of this switch to many others I've used--it has a firmly responsive 'snap' as it recovers after being actuated.
I'm becoming more in line with this linear switch and it feels natural to me; liike its a matter of course when I type. I don't have to work the switch. All I have to do is type! I'm enjoying this keyboard and MX Red key switches.
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They're actually great for typing... Really smooth and enjoyable experience...
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Reds are by far my favorite common MX switch for all uses and are what is in 70% of my keyboards. I leave mine stock, and rely on break in to get them nice and smooth. But, if I could have my way I would have vintage linear white/clears in EVERYTHING. Also, in my opinion you haven't experienced red bliss until you have tried them in PCB mount with Cherry profile keycaps.
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Reds are by far my favorite common MX switch for all uses and are what is in 70% of my keyboards. I leave mine stock, and rely on break in to get them nice and smooth. But, if I could have my way I would have vintage linear white/clears in EVERYTHING. Also, in my opinion you haven't experienced red bliss until you have tried them in PCB mount with Cherry profile keycaps.
If you would, can you tell me if there's a manufactured keyboard that has MX Red switches in a PCB mount? I'm interested. I love these key switches, they're fantastic. I just changed the key caps on my K65; it went from great to great+.
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They're actually great for typing... Really smooth and enjoyable experience...
I agree with you. I find the more I use them, the better they perform; and the better I get with this switch.
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MX reds with red O-rings on my main board. Mostly use it for coding which obviously involves a lot of regular typing, mixed with chording and symbol entry. I find that the light, smooth feel of the caps and the soft but not mushy landing makes them the lowest-stress switch for very long periods of use.
My WPM is only about 100 and I never really learned to type without bottoming out at least 50% of the time so that factors into my decision to use O-rings.
Some people will probably find this comparison to be sacreligious but it generally feels to me like a much nicer version of scissor switches from good laptop keyboards (like Macbooks). The keypress force is light and it feels like the typing just flows out of your fingers without resistance.
Now from time to time I like to have a little higher impact feel or a crisper action which is why I swap in other boards. But MX reds have probably won over 95% of my keyboard time.
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MX reds with red O-rings on my main board. Mostly use it for coding which obviously involves a lot of regular typing, mixed with chording and symbol entry. I find that the light, smooth feel of the caps and the soft but not mushy landing makes them the lowest-stress switch for very long periods of use.
My WPM is only about 100 and I never really learned to type without bottoming out at least 50% of the time so that factors into my decision to use O-rings.
Some people will probably find this comparison to be sacrilegious but it generally feels to me like a much nicer version of scissor switches from good laptop keyboards (like Macbooks). The keypress force is light and it feels like the typing just flows out of your fingers without resistance.
Now from time to time I like to have a little higher impact feel or a crisper action which is why I swap in other boards. But MX reds have probably won over 95% of my keyboard time.
To me the feel of MS Red switches is exceptionally crisp; and the switch's recovery is so responsive. I bottom out much of the time, it's just my way of typing. But with this light, linear switch, I do have a lighter touch, but not so much diminished key travel. The switch reminds me of a Leading Edge keyboard I had around 1985--which may be too far back for many of GHs members.
If a switch reminds you of previous switch and others disagree, let 'em get over themselves. The person using a particular is their best judge of how the switch feels. My sense is that we may perceive the feel of a switch differently from the way others feel the same switch. I'm using the MX Red KB 100% of the time for now; but I can't see myself getting back to an SSK or heavier-switch keyboard. I've used heavier switches for so long and put up with their effects after hours of use, that this lighter/linear switch feels too good for me relinquish.
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Sure, any Cherry G80 with reds like 3494LYCUS or 3600LYCJA, or if you can find one an older Poker X first gen Pure or Race, Plum 96 (be careful of revision as some are plate mount), neo Zelia..
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Sure, any Cherry G80 with reds like 3494LYCUS or 3600LYCJA, or if you can find one an older Poker X first gen Pure or Race, Plum 96 (be careful of revision as some are plate mount), neo Zelia..
Спасибо! If I've gotten it right. If not, 'Thank you.'
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Yes translate can be a tricky ***** but don't worry as I am not fluent Russian speaker anyways. ;)
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I love reds for all purposes. My main work keyboard is (essentially) MX reds, and I type documents and code on it all day every day.
QFT (although I still use other keyboards and slowly transition to vintage blacks)
I use MX Red in the office, because it's the quietest mechanical switch.
Except it isn't.
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Why would PCB mount feel better? I would've thought having a rigid mount would improve the crisp feel of these switches? I have plate mounted Blues and I'm not that impressed with the flex. Overall it makes the switch feel ... laggy and the board cheap.
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I love reds for all purposes. My main work keyboard is (essentially) MX reds, and I type documents and code on it all day every day.
QFT (although I still use other keyboards and slowly transition to vintage blacks)
I use MX Red in the office, because it's the quietest mechanical switch.
Except it isn't.
Nice response, could you give some evidence to why it isn't the quietest switch? Being a linear switch, it does not actually make any noise, so I have no idea why you're disagreeing.
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I love reds for all purposes. My main work keyboard is (essentially) MX reds, and I type documents and code on it all day every day.
QFT (although I still use other keyboards and slowly transition to vintage blacks)
I use MX Red in the office, because it's the quietest mechanical switch.
Except it isn't.
Nice response, could you give some evidence to why it isn't the quietest switch? Being a linear switch, it does not actually make any noise, so I have no idea why you're disagreeing.
Perhaps you could argue that black is quieter because it is easier to avoid bottoming out on? Unless he is referring to topre silent (not really mechanical) or some alp switch I haven't tried.
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I love reds for all purposes. My main work keyboard is (essentially) MX reds, and I type documents and code on it all day every day.
QFT (although I still use other keyboards and slowly transition to vintage blacks)
I use MX Red in the office, because it's the quietest mechanical switch.
Except it isn't.
Nice response, could you give some evidence to why it isn't the quietest switch? Being a linear switch, it does not actually make any noise, so I have no idea why you're disagreeing.
Perhaps you could argue that black is quieter because it is easier to avoid bottoming out on? Unless he is referring to topre silent (not really mechanical) or some alp switch I haven't tried.
Topre silent still makes the thock upon bottoming out, while that is semantics. If we are speaking about touch-typing, either should be able to be typed on without bottoming out, so the point of it being slightly easier due to heaviness is null. Unless he's saying that Blacks are more quiet because nobody would want to type on them, and thus they are always silent. :D
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I love reds for all purposes. My main work keyboard is (essentially) MX reds, and I type documents and code on it all day every day.
QFT (although I still use other keyboards and slowly transition to vintage blacks)
I use MX Red in the office, because it's the quietest mechanical switch.
Except it isn't.
Nice response, could you give some evidence to why it isn't the quietest switch? Being a linear switch, it does not actually make any noise, so I have no idea why you're disagreeing.
Upstroke. For example, Cherry MY or salmon Alps are quieter, Matias Quiet switches probably too (like here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56648).
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I love reds for all purposes. My main work keyboard is (essentially) MX reds, and I type documents and code on it all day every day.
QFT (although I still use other keyboards and slowly transition to vintage blacks)
I use MX Red in the office, because it's the quietest mechanical switch.
Except it isn't.
Nice response, could you give some evidence to why it isn't the quietest switch? Being a linear switch, it does not actually make any noise, so I have no idea why you're disagreeing.
Upstroke. For example, Cherry MY or salmon Alps are quieter, Matias Quiet switches probably too (like here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56648).
I see. It is strongly impacted by the keycap, though, so does an ALPS switch have some more controlled version of an upstroke?
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i wish i had more to type, because i love typing on my (plate-mounted) reds. but other than some chatting and some posting on forums i don't really have any typing to do ;p
i just have to lube'em up, still. i can feel and hear the scratching and on some keys it's alot worse than others. i know that that's not red-specific, but i'm sure that lube would be a nice add to these awesome linear switches. [/fanboy]
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One thing that really bothers me is because I'm not bottoming out, my fingers roll over other keys more often and I regularly hit the caps lock by mistake. If I were to make any changes it would be to make the modifiers and space bar a slightly heavier switch type. Also: lube your reds. It's like consolidated sex for your fingers.
At work I've been using MX reds for 7-8 months and this is definitely my most common mistake. I hit that damned caps lock key by accident all the time. Maybe I'm just lacking pinky finger dexterity ...
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One thing that really bothers me is because I'm not bottoming out, my fingers roll over other keys more often and I regularly hit the caps lock by mistake. If I were to make any changes it would be to make the modifiers and space bar a slightly heavier switch type. Also: lube your reds. It's like consolidated sex for your fingers.
At work I've been using MX reds for 7-8 months and this is definitely my most common mistake. I hit that damned caps lock key by accident all the time. Maybe I'm just lacking pinky finger dexterity ...
If you're tapping the inside edge of caps lock when actuating the 'A' key, you may want to consider replacing caps-lock with a smaller, perhaps blank, R2 1x1, key cap.
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Just put a superblack in your caps lock... I guarantee never accidentally press again. It takes some real effort to move a superblack. A linear grey can do as well since it is quite a lot heavier than a red still. Alternately if you generally never use caps lock you could disable it in the OS or use a key lock out clip.
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One thing that really bothers me is because I'm not bottoming out, my fingers roll over other keys more often and I regularly hit the caps lock by mistake. If I were to make any changes it would be to make the modifiers and space bar a slightly heavier switch type. Also: lube your reds. It's like consolidated sex for your fingers.
At work I've been using MX reds for 7-8 months and this is definitely my most common mistake. I hit that damned caps lock key by accident all the time. Maybe I'm just lacking pinky finger dexterity ...
If you're tapping the inside edge of caps lock when actuating the 'A' key, you may want to consider replacing caps-lock with a smaller, perhaps blank, R2 1x1, key cap.
I tend to have the same issue you have. After I swapped the left control key for the caps lock, the problem is irrelevant. Just sharing with you something that may help. Also I was unsure about the usefulness of the change, but the place of the caps lock is ideal for the control key.
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I miss reds... I really like them, I don't see anything wrong with them.
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I miss reds... I really like them, I don't see anything wrong with them.
Hunter! I haven't seen you around in forever. How goes typing?
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I miss reds... I really like them, I don't see anything wrong with them.
Apart from this thread, I don't see MX Red switches mentioned all that often. I gather many on GH
prefer heavier switches, buckling springs, and Topre. I have BS and Topre keyboards; however, I find
Red switches comfortable to use. I have get used to the feel each day I use them, but I've been using
an MX Red keyboard for only about a week. And when I use a heavier-switch keyboard for a couple or
three hours, I move to the MX Red board and it feels so good that I continue I continue to use the lighter
switches for the rest of the day. I use them for typing.
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I wonder if I'm alone in feeling like Reds could be further improved by exhibiting more of a linear force curve (sharing the lighter weight required at the beginning of the press). So like 30g evenly throughout. I'm not an engineer or anything, so not sure if a spring is capable of this.
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I wonder if I'm alone in feeling like Reds could be further improved by exhibiting more of a linear force curve (sharing the lighter weight required at the beginning of the press). So like 30g evenly throughout. I'm not an engineer or anything, so not sure if a spring is capable of this.
I'd be curious to try an MX linear switch with a 50-gram down-force throughout each key strike. However, I'm really
pleased with this 45-gram linear switch. And modifying my current MX Red KB would only ruin a KB I quite like. After
using an MX Red keyboard, I prefer linear to tactile switches. The smooth feel and responsiveness of this switch is
enjoyable to use, it always feels good to use my one MX Red KB. It's a switch I enjoy and look forward to using as
one of, if not my only, keyboard on a given day.
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I love reds too. Still, can't help but wonder if they could feel even smoother and nicer if they were even lighter again. Might just get too light. I don't rest my fingers on the keys; they just float so that my index fingers can locate on the home keys, so I could get used to even lighter, myself.
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GH: I had occasion to use MX Red switches to type a document for a neighbor. I hadn't liked Red switches for typing; however, after having no choice at my neighbor's house, I found myself being more mindful of my typing/accuracy and they worked well. I, of course, had to use a lighter touch, i.e., more mindful overall finger pressure throughout each key-strike, than I use with me MX Blue and 55-gram Topre switches. The medium to heavier key switches allow one to be a bit more casual at grazing key-caps' tops and, of course, permit heavier resting-finger pressure because of the required gram force to actuate heavier switches.
I seldom read threads/posts discussing a preference for MX Red switches. Are there any GH members using an MX Red keyboard for typing documents or general use?
I use a CM Storm Trigger w/ reds at home. I think reds are my favorite "general purpose" switch. They're my favorite for gaming, and maybe my second favorite for typing. Browns are my favorite to type with. I've also used Blues which I enjoy, but for some reason I find myself liking the lesser-tactile switches best.
The only con with reds I feel is the really light actuation. I have a bad habit of resting fingers on keys, and occasionally I'll just start spamming something like "E" without noticing.
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I love reds too. Still, can't help but wonder if they could feel even smoother and nicer if they were even lighter again. Might just get too light. I don't rest my fingers on the keys; they just float so that my index fingers can locate on the home keys, so I could get used to even lighter, myself.
try lubing them?
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I love reds too. Still, can't help but wonder if they could feel even smoother and nicer if they were even lighter again. Might just get too light. I don't rest my fingers on the keys; they just float so that my index fingers can locate on the home keys, so I could get used to even lighter, myself.
try lubing them?
That doesn't really make them lighter per se. He could buy some of the 45g springs from Originative, though.
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I, too, like MX Red switches; at times, however, I lose my feel for this lighter down-force switch; which is when I return to my 55-gram 87U--talk about a dichotomy in keyboard preferences. But I've realized that this is the time I should stay with the lighter switch and adapt. The spot-on observations that many have made is that key-switch and keyboard selections are a matter of personal preference. Yet, we love discussing key switches and keyboards and giving our findings/impressions. It's great to have a forum for these discussions.
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I love reds too. Still, can't help but wonder if they could feel even smoother and nicer if they were even lighter again. Might just get too light. I don't rest my fingers on the keys; they just float so that my index fingers can locate on the home keys, so I could get used to even lighter, myself.
try lubing them?
That doesn't really make them lighter per se. He could buy some of the 45g springs from Originative, though.
was referring to the smoother and nicer part
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I love reds too. Still, can't help but wonder if they could feel even smoother and nicer if they were even lighter again. Might just get too light. I don't rest my fingers on the keys; they just float so that my index fingers can locate on the home keys, so I could get used to even lighter, myself.
try lubing them?
That doesn't really make them lighter per se. He could buy some of the 45g springs from Originative, though.
was referring to the smoother and nicer part
If you read his earlier post, you would know he was talking about the effects of spring lightening, not how to achieve it through some other means.
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I'm a huge fan of good quality linear switches. Currently using Vintage MX Black (from never used Cherry branded terminal keyboard) switches with springs from brand new MX Blue (for consistency) on my ErgoDox.
If standard MX Red is cloud of boobs feel, this must be pillow of honey. Butter smooth and ultra light. Also somehow I'm faster and more accurate than on MX Blue (which I also love and use often).
Also important is the fact that my ErgoDox doesn't have plate and switches are PCB mounted and the case is made so PCB flexes very slightly on stronger presses (very similar feel to early G80 boards).
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I'm a huge fan of good quality linear switches. Currently using Vintage MX Black (from never used Cherry branded terminal keyboard) switches with springs from brand new MX Blue (for consistency) on my ErgoDox.
If standard MX Red is cloud of boobs feel, this must be pillow of honey. Butter smooth and ultra light. Also somehow I'm faster and more accurate than on MX Blue (which I also love and use often).
Also important is the fact that my ErgoDox doesn't have plate and switches are PCB mounted and the case is made so PCB flexes very slightly on stronger presses (very similar feel to early G80 boards).
hm... what do you mean by accurate?
Like the actuation point has a smaller margin of error than the other switches and this small error margin is the same across all Mx reds? Or does it mean something else?
Sorry for questioning, just don't really know what you mean by accurate.
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I'm a huge fan of good quality linear switches. Currently using Vintage MX Black (from never used Cherry branded terminal keyboard) switches with springs from brand new MX Blue (for consistency) on my ErgoDox.
If standard MX Red is cloud of boobs feel, this must be pillow of honey. Butter smooth and ultra light. Also somehow I'm faster and more accurate than on MX Blue (which I also love and use often).
Also important is the fact that my ErgoDox doesn't have plate and switches are PCB mounted and the case is made so PCB flexes very slightly on stronger presses (very similar feel to early G80 boards).
hm... what do you mean by accurate?
Like the actuation point has a smaller margin of error than the other switches and this small error margin is the same across all Mx reds? Or does it mean something else?
Sorry for questioning, just don't really know what you mean by accurate.
By accurate I mean that I make less mistakes than on tactile / clicky switch.
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Removed post.
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Spring modded MYs. I swear, the feel is just incredible. I wish everyone could experience them, but... it's a difficult modification, for a result you can't test until after hours of searching for dropped prongs and releasing snaps. But for gaming? It's the first keyboard I've used that's actually improved my performance just on its own merits. For typing, it also feels great as long as I can remember not to rest my fingers on the home row. The keys nearly bottom out with just the lightest tap.
I left the spacebar, enter and a few other keys stock. Some I'd like to make a bit heavier than stock...
But also I want to get an MX board for better customization. And because I'm afraid of destroying another MY membrane by spilling a single drop of coffee in it. There's the real problem there. The keyboard is virtually indestructible, but will fail catastrophically if any amount of liquid gets past the keycaps.
Given the situation, definitely reds. Is there any way to make reds lighter? Like, 10-15g lighter?
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Spring modded MYs. I swear, the feel is just incredible. I wish everyone could experience them, but... it's a difficult modification, for a result you can't test until after hours of searching for dropped prongs and releasing snaps. But for gaming? It's the first keyboard I've used that's actually improved my performance just on its own merits. For typing, it also feels great as long as I can remember not to rest my fingers on the home row. The keys nearly bottom out with just the lightest tap.
I left the spacebar, enter and a few other keys stock. Some I'd like to make a bit heavier than stock...
But also I want to get an MX board for better customization. And because I'm afraid of destroying another MY membrane by spilling a single drop of coffee in it. There's the real problem there. The keyboard is virtually indestructible, but will fail catastrophically if any amount of liquid gets past the keycaps.
Given the situation, definitely reds. Is there any way to make reds lighter? Like, 10-15g lighter?
Originative 45g springs are about 8g or so lighter if I remember correctly. Anything less might not hold up the slider sufficiently.
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I have three keyboards that I use regularly: a Corsair K95 with Reds and red o-rings, an old Northgate with white Alps, and the built-in keyboard on my Lenovo Thinkpad. For pure typing feel, I still prefer the Northgate, but I’m also very happy typing on the K95. The Thinkpad keyboard finishes a distant third, but it’s about as good as it gets in the laptop category.
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I love reds too. Still, can't help but wonder if they could feel even smoother and nicer if they were even lighter again. Might just get too light. I don't rest my fingers on the keys; they just float so that my index fingers can locate on the home keys, so I could get used to even lighter, myself.
try lubing them?
That doesn't really make them lighter per se. He could buy some of the 45g springs from Originative, though.
Stock red springs are 45g already aren't they? What difference would using aftermarket springs of the same rating have?
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I love reds too. Still, can't help but wonder if they could feel even smoother and nicer if they were even lighter again. Might just get too light. I don't rest my fingers on the keys; they just float so that my index fingers can locate on the home keys, so I could get used to even lighter, myself.
try lubing them?
That doesn't really make them lighter per se. He could buy some of the 45g springs from Originative, though.
Stock red springs are 45g already aren't they? What difference would using aftermarket springs of the same rating have?
Perhaps you shouldn't assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, eh zig?
Mini keyboarding lesson: Korean springs are named for their bottom-out force, and not their actuation force. Although the measurement is slightly off by a few grams, this is what makes them quite different (Reds bottom out around 60g, while the Koreans are probably around 50g).
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Perhaps you shouldn't assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, eh zig?
Mini keyboarding lesson: Korean springs are named for their bottom-out force, and not their actuation force. Although the measurement is slightly off by a few grams, this is what makes them quite different (Reds bottom out around 60g, while the Koreans are probably around 50g).
That seemed like an unnecessarily harsh response. He's right though, Korean springs are measured at the bottom out point and Cherry springs are measured at the actuation point.
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Perhaps you shouldn't assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, eh zig?
Mini keyboarding lesson: Korean springs are named for their bottom-out force, and not their actuation force. Although the measurement is slightly off by a few grams, this is what makes them quite different (Reds bottom out around 60g, while the Koreans are probably around 50g).
That seemed like an unnecessarily harsh response. He's right though, Korean springs are measured at the bottom out point and Cherry springs are measured at the actuation point.
I was joking, I've talked with zig before. It just seems that, considering my post number, I ought to have a decent idea of what I'm talking about.
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It just seems that, considering my post number, I ought to have a decent idea of what I'm talking about.
You need another 49k+ posts to be the #1 keyboard expert on the planet. ~_^
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Is there a standard for Korean-manufactured springs that states if a spring is rated/bottoms
out at X grams, it's actuation point is (approximately) X minus a specific number of grams?
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Is there a standard for Korean-manufactured springs that states if a spring is rated/bottoms
out at X grams, it's actuation point is (approximately) X minus a specific number of grams?
There isn't, as springs have different force curves. It's best just to take a look at those, honestly, as they're much more accurate.
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I found difference between springs with respect to country of origin very interesting.
I recently bought into the Sprit groupbuy. I, being an MX Red lover like yourself, originally went with 50g springs. Sprit PM'd me and informed me that his 50g was, in reality, softer than a MX Red.. and that his 55g springs are actually a little lighter than a MX Brown. "A little lighter than a MX Brown" sounded like a traditional MX Red to me, so 55g is what I ordered.
And while this isn't an official standard by any means, here's a copypasta from his spring groupbuy, where he speaks on how his springs feel.
My 50g is a little bit lighter than MX Red
My 55g is slightly softer and lighter than MX Brown, MX Blue
My 60g is similar to MX Blue, but has some tightness, hopely
My 62g is a little bit heavier than MX Blue
My 68-70g is similar to New MX Skyblue Click, some MX Green, some Vintage MX Black
My 75-80g is similar to most MX Black
My 85g is similar or, slightly heavier than MX Clear
My 100g is similar to MX Grey Nonclick in MX Clear Keyboards.
My 120g Super-heavy!
I have (in a dark closet somewhere) a Mionix Zibal 60 with MX Blacks. While it was pretty sweet to game on, it was hell to type with and would regularly make my hands hurt/ache. I dunno how anyone could use 120g springs hahah
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Linkbane: Thanks, you make an excellent point about checking various springs' force curves. It makes sense; one can compare the force curve of the spring one's using with what's available.
Archer: Interesting observations on gram-weight springs. It does give one an idea of how the springs feel to another person who has a feel for key switches. Thanks for posting the list.
I appreciate the responses.
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Count me in as another person who uses MX Red switches for typing as much as gaming. Amongst the switches I have tried so far, they are my favorite. They were also the first type of MX switch I got my hands on when transitioning from rubber domes to mechanical, and what I find quite interesting in retrospect is that I naturally adapted to a light touch and not bottoming out.
I am happy I went with MX Reds, since I was being told by most people at the time that they would not be suited at all for everyday use/work.
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Count me in as another person who uses MX Red switches for typing as much as gaming. Amongst the switches I have tried so far, they are my favorite. They were also the first type of MX switch I got my hands on when transitioning from rubber domes to mechanical, and what I find quite interesting in retrospect is that I naturally adapted to a light touch and not bottoming out.
I am happy I went with MX Reds, since I was being told by most people at the time that they would not be suited at all for everyday use/work.
I find myself going back and forth between my MX Red and my 87UB/55-gram keyboards. There are times I simply cannot gain feel for MX Red switches. When this happens, I can go to the 87U, and, if I choose, return to the MX Red keyboard and all is well. I think it's quite simply that I enjoy using more than one keyboard. I like the difference in key-switch feel. But when all other keyboards fail me, the 87UB comes through. I'm back on my MX Red KB and it's fine. It takes my digits a while to get comfortable in the a.m.; and this is when the heavier key switch gives me a digit workout, which is what is occasionally what I need before working with the lighter down-force Red switch.
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I find myself going back and forth between my MX Red and my 87UB/55-gram keyboards. There are times I simply cannot gain feel for MX Red switches. When this happens, I can go to the 87U, and, if I choose, return to the MX Red keyboard and all is well. I think it's quite simply that I enjoy using more than one keyboard. I like the difference in key-switch feel. But when all other keyboards fail me, the 87UB comes through. I'm back on my MX Red KB and it's fine. It takes my digits a while to get comfortable in the a.m.; and this is when the heavier key switch gives me a digit workout, which is what is occasionally what I need before working with the lighter down-force Red switch.
I can relate to that. I tend to do the same thing but with mouses. Sometimes you just want to change; in a sense it keeps things fresh, I tend to find.
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Added to Switch Review Directory (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44165.0)!
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Added to Switch Review Directory (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44165.0)!
Nice! Good idea.
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Perhaps you shouldn't assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, eh zig?
Mini keyboarding lesson: Korean springs are named for their bottom-out force, and not their actuation force. Although the measurement is slightly off by a few grams, this is what makes them quite different (Reds bottom out around 60g, while the Koreans are probably around 50g).
That seemed like an unnecessarily harsh response. He's right though, Korean springs are measured at the bottom out point and Cherry springs are measured at the actuation point.
I was joking, I've talked with zig before. It just seems that, considering my post number, I ought to have a decent idea of what I'm talking about.
Hey dude. I didn't mean to confer that you didn't know what you were talking about; I was simply putting my cards on the table so I could learn the game better.
Thanks for the explanation. I had a look at the force curve graph on Originative's website and that helped me visualise it. Hmmm either a lot of money or a lot of work ahead, it seems. I wonder if GON would re-spring and lube 87 switches for me hmmm
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I'm currently using a noppoo choc mini with red switches.
I started to notice something annoying about my noppoo. I don't know if it is me or the keyboard, but sometimes when I press the spacebar, it doesn't insert any space, and sometimes it inserts two spaces in a row.
It's getting on my nerve, especially when I'm doing a typing test, and I'm thinking about buying another keyboad with different switches...
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I'm currently using a noppoo choc mini with red switches.
I started to notice something annoying about my noppoo. I don't know if it is me or the keyboard, but sometimes when I press the spacebar, it doesn't insert any space, and sometimes it inserts two spaces in a row.
It's getting on my nerve, especially when I'm doing a typing test, and I'm thinking about buying another keyboad with different switches...
yea thats a known issue with the noppo
should have gone with the keycool :rolleyes:
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So it is a mechanical issue?
Is there a way to fix it or do I need to buy a new one?
And what is keycool? The manufacturer ?
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I'm currently using a noppoo choc mini with red switches.
I started to notice something annoying about my noppoo. I don't know if it is me or the keyboard, but sometimes when I press the spacebar, it doesn't insert any space, and sometimes it inserts two spaces in a row.
It's getting on my nerve, especially when I'm doing a typing test, and I'm thinking about buying another keyboad with different switches...
It's likely your Noppoo Choc keyboard, not the MX Red key-switch. I've not had any issues with MX Red switches, and over the past two years I've had three manufacturer's MX Red keyboards: Filco, Cooler Master, and my most recent and the one I prefer, a Corsair Vengeance K65. If you like MX Red switches, stay with them. The best suggestion is to get rid of the Noppoo Choc.
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I'm currently using a noppoo choc mini with red switches.
I started to notice something annoying about my noppoo. I don't know if it is me or the keyboard, but sometimes when I press the spacebar, it doesn't insert any space, and sometimes it inserts two spaces in a row.
It's getting on my nerve, especially when I'm doing a typing test, and I'm thinking about buying another keyboad with different switches...
Well, choc mini has debouncing issues. Please, STFW. There's already at least a dozen threads about it.
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Added red o-rings to my MX Red keyboard, which resulted in loss of key-switch feel
I added red o-rings to my K65 MX Red keyboard and they ruined the feel of the key switch for me. I tried them for one day's typing and could not get a feel for the reduction in key travel. It hindered my typing so much that I moved away from the Corsair and took out another keyboard. I have a device I use to push the o-rings to the base of each key cap: it's a ballpoint pen barrel that fits over the key-caps' stems and makes for proper seating of each o-ring.
I removed the o-rings early this afternoon and the keyboard has again become a performer for me. The keys feel good and the unrestricted key-travel is a repeated 4mm ride I enjoy. Granted, a red o-ring restricts travel by only 0.2mm or 05% of the stock switch's travel; however, it made for a marked difference in feel for me because my accuracy and cadence, pretty much feel for the switch, became a memory, all feel was gone. Anyway, removing the red o-rings has returned the feel of MX Red switches for me. I really like and enjoy this key switch; I really disliked the results of the red o-ring mod. I know a lot of GH'ers like red/blue/black o-rings, but,for me, they didn't, in any manner, enhance key-switch performance or feel. I had to try the o-rings after reading so much about them on GH. There may be other mods that to some on GH use to enhance the switch's performance and feel, and they may work well for them; but I prefer bare/naked/unencumbered MX Red switches--they work as is.
I understand that the use of o-rings is a matter of personal preference. Did I mention how much I like bare MX Red key switches?
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I'm currently using a noppoo choc mini with red switches.
I started to notice something annoying about my noppoo. I don't know if it is me or the keyboard, but sometimes when I press the spacebar, it doesn't insert any space, and sometimes it inserts two spaces in a row.
It's getting on my nerve, especially when I'm doing a typing test, and I'm thinking about buying another keyboad with different switches...
It's likely your Noppoo Choc keyboard, not the MX Red key-switch. I've not had any issues with MX Red switches, and over the past two years I've had three manufacturer's MX Red keyboards: Filco, Cooler Master, and my most recent and the one I prefer, a Corsair Vengeance K65. If you like MX Red switches, stay with them. The best suggestion is to get rid of the Noppoo Choc.
Keyboard doesn't work, throw it away? Nice logic there.
Have to fix the debounce issues, you'll be fine then.
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SSKGuy: I reckon you should guinea pig an idea of mine: KMAC with black switches with 45g Originative springs (lubed). Or hit up GON for lubed black switches with his 50g springs (similar profile to the 45g Originatives) and transplant them into one of your less used boards.
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It's a matter of STICKING to what you're USED TO, vs trying something new..
Ultimately performance will be up to the User... Sean Wrona can do his thing on Any keyboard.. the letters just magically come out at 200wpm and that's when the keyboard isn't even plugged in.
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It's a matter of STICKING to what you're USED TO, vs trying something new..
Ultimately performance will be up to the User... Sean Wrona can do his thing on Any keyboard.. the letters just magically come out at 200wpm and that's when the keyboard isn't even plugged in.
Ohmygod tp is back, welcome back! What kept you so long? We even made a thread about you.
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I agree that typing fast can essentially be achieved on any switch, but I guess this thread is in response to the common debate that red switches promote errors and are therefore sub par for typing. I somewhat agree. I'm typing on blues now and I do find that if I'm doing speed typing exercises like typeracer or typing of the dead, that my fingers CAN get a bit lost on reds. But it doesn't take away from how much I enjoy typing on reds for their smooth feel.
Any keyboard enthusiast, if they thought it possible, would be inclined to pursue an EVEN BETTER feel if it were possible. I have a feeling using GON 50g or Originative 45g lubed springs instead of stock reds could actually be an improvement and provide that ultimate end of the road keyboard experience for those of us who appreciate the finer qualities of Reds.
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I agree that typing fast can essentially be achieved on any switch, but I guess this thread is in response to the common debate that red switches promote errors and are therefore sub par for typing. I somewhat agree. I'm typing on blues now and I do find that if I'm doing speed typing exercises like typeracer or typing of the dead, that my fingers CAN get a bit lost on reds. But it doesn't take away from how much I enjoy typing on reds for their smooth feel.
Any keyboard enthusiast, if they thought it possible, would be inclined to pursue an EVEN BETTER feel if it were possible. I have a feeling using GON 50g or Originative 45g lubed springs instead of stock reds could actually be an improvement and provide that ultimate end of the road keyboard experience for those of us who appreciate the finer qualities of Reds.
the error comes from the fact that if you respond to hit-confirm on a "tactile" switch, then your timing will be different vs on the REDS, where the hit confirm is "bottom-ing-out"..
So you're looking at ~2mm vs 4mm travel difference.. so between the ~2 difference is where your timing error will come from..
Once you get used to it... the difference in performance will disappear, because you're ultimately limited by how well you have un-common key combinations adapted into your muscle memory..
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I agree. However! lol However, I don't bottom out on reds unless I'm under pressure in a high APM demanding game. I've just developed a feel for how much force I need to get key strokes registered. I used a keystroke sound emulator for a week or so to help get a feel for the activation point.
Your other point is spot on. Tactility is simply another element assisting in lieu of perfect muscle memory, which is absent on reds unless you deliberately bottom out.
I personally really enjoy the feeling of my fingers floating on the soft cushions that are Reds. If they were softer and faster, wouldn't they be better? (So long as the springs have been engineered well enough that their reset speed is not affected.)
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I agree. However! lol However, I don't bottom out on reds unless I'm under pressure in a high APM demanding game. I've just developed a feel for how much force I need to get key strokes registered. I used a keystroke sound emulator for a week or so to help get a feel for the activation point.
Your other point is spot on. Tactility is simply another element assisting in lieu of perfect muscle memory, which is absent on reds unless you deliberately bottom out.
I personally really enjoy the feeling of my fingers floating on the soft cushions that are Reds. If they were softer and faster, wouldn't they be better? (So long as the springs have been engineered well enough that their reset speed is not affected.)
Softer and faster are countered by each other, if I'm getting you correctly. Soft as in less actuation force, and faster as in faster reset?
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I've seen the force curves and understand that softer means slower reset, but the reset speed can be optimised; something that isn't apparent in all after market springs. You can also end up with springs that are simply too light to reset the switch at all if you're not careful ...
I don't think a slightly slower reset vs stock would have a marked impact on typing speed, but a better feel... isn't that what we are all looking for?
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I've seen the force curves and understand that softer means slower reset, but the reset speed can be optimised; something that isn't apparent in all after market springs. You can also end up with springs that are simply too light to reset the switch at all if you're not careful ...
I don't think a slightly slower reset vs stock would have a marked impact on typing speed, but a better feel... isn't that what we are all looking for?
I agree, it would be a nice feeling. I wonder what the minimum for preventing accidental actuation would be, though, given that people do tend to hit random keys on the 30g and variable Topre.
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I have a mx red QFR. Although I've gotten used to it more still thumbs up for gaming thumbs down for typing. However still more satisfying then rubber dome :)
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Just a note though. I love the ghetto vintage reds (vintage blacks with mx blue spring) where stock reds on QFR only like a bit. I mean they're ok and I was using this keyboard as my primary for few weeks but they're not as smooth and nice as modded switches. It might have something to do with lack of plate and kind of soft suspension of the PCB within my ErgoDox. It really feels very similar to topre, just linear and more consistent.
Just have a look yourself:
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The more I use the K65/MX Red, the greater the feel I gain for the key switch.
I use my Realforce 87UB and alternate keyboards, often within the same day.
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If anyone is interested, Amazon has the Corsair K65/MX Red keyboard for $69.99 with Amazon Prime. It usually sells for $90. Here's the link. I also posted this under Great Finds.
I know we have our preferences for MX Red KBs; and for me, I prefer the feel and the exposed architecture of the K65. If you're interested...
http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Vengeance-Mechanical-Keyboard-CH-9000040-NA/dp/B00DOWCQ0I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398200448&sr=8-1&keywords=Corsair+K65
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I use reds for typing on occasion, on my Poker. It's a nice feel, but there's definitely an adjustment period if I was previously using my Topre Leo or Model M, both of which offer a much more distinct typing feel. I certainly make more mistakes on the reds, but it does even out after a while and is not as pronounced, for me, as common wisdom would have you believe . I would say that the idea of reds being difficult to type on for that reason is probably overdone if you are an ok touch typist. Do I prefer the topre and buckling spring switches for typing? Yes, but it's not categorical. The reds are pleasant. I think reds make for a nice every day board, given their lightness and utility. I use them for gaming, often use the poker for general use given my love of the true 60% form factor, and then switch to the model M or topre for more serious typing, or just for a different feel.
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I use reds for typing on occasion, on my Poker. It's a nice feel, but there's definitely an adjustment period if I was previously using my Topre Leo or Model M, both of which offer a much more distinct typing feel. I certainly make more mistakes on the reds, but it does even out after a while and is not as pronounced, for me, as common wisdom would have you believe . I would say that the idea of reds being difficult to type on for that reason is probably overdone if you are an ok touch typist. Do I prefer the topre and buckling spring switches for typing? Yes, but it's not categorical. The reds are pleasant. I think reds make for a nice every day board, given their lightness and utility. I use them for gaming, often use the poker for general use given my love of the true 60% form factor, and then switch to the model M or topre for more serious typing, or just for a different feel.
With the exception of gaming, because I don't game, my feeling about MX Red switches parallels yours. I enjoy the feel of the switch, but I use my 55-gram 87U when it's time to focus on writing. I used to use a buckling spring KB, SSK, and my 87UB; however, the 87UB has taken the place of my SSK.
I do find the MX Red keyboard enjoyable to use and extremely easy on my hands. If one isn't mindful when typing, errors come into play, which may be true of any switch. I feel, as you, that the dislike for MX Red switches, especially from non-touch typists, is overplayed. I had to stay with the keyboard and gain a feel for the lighter switch; and after doing this, I can use either my 55g Topre or 45g MX Red at will; and I do enjoy a change in key-switch feel.
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I'm using MX Red Switches for Typing too. I'm using Noppoo Choc Mini (MX Red Switches , White Body) and Steelseries 6Gv2 Red Switches :)
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I moved to my Realforce for just over a day; then returned to my MX Red keyboard. There is zero fatigue with this key switch.
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I moved to my Realforce for just over a day; then returned to my MX Red keyboard. There is zero fatigue with this key switch.
It's because reds are so light. I noticed a difference going from blues to reds. Felt like typing on clouds because they were so light. Once I did that I realized they were too light so I went to browns.
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I moved to my Realforce for just over a day; then returned to my MX Red keyboard. There is zero fatigue with this key switch.
It's because reds are so light. I noticed a difference going from blues to reds. Felt like typing on clouds because they were so light. Once I did that I realized they were too light so I went to browns.
I recently gave an MX Blue keyboard to someone and she's returning it to me for another keyboard I picked up for her. So I'll have an opportunity to see how a the MX Blue switch feels in comparison with MX Reds. I've thought about trying MX Browns, but I thought the difference might to negligible. I haven't used an MX Brown keyboard in over a year, and I cannot accurately recall the feel compared with MX Red switches. I'll keep the MX Red and Blue that's coming back to me. I may end up with Red-, Brown-, and Blue-switch keyboards. But I want to keep only two KBs on my desk. Otherwise I get into going back and forth and it affects the time I actually spend writing. I'm a writer and spend hours each day on my KBs. I still like and use my 87UB; but 55 grams is a lot to handle for seven to nine hours of keyboard work.
Your preference is MX Browns in Cherry switches?
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I moved to my Realforce for just over a day; then returned to my MX Red keyboard. There is zero fatigue with this key switch.
It's because reds are so light. I noticed a difference going from blues to reds. Felt like typing on clouds because they were so light. Once I did that I realized they were too light so I went to browns.
I recently gave an MX Blue keyboard to someone and she's returning it to me for another keyboard I picked up for her. So I'll have an opportunity to see how a the MX Blue switch feels in comparison with MX Reds. I've thought about trying MX Browns, but I thought the difference might to negligible. I haven't used an MX Brown keyboard in over a year, and I cannot accurately recall the feel compared with MX Red switches. I'll keep the MX Red and Blue that's coming back to me. I may end up with Red-, Brown-, and Blue-switch keyboards. But I want to keep only two KBs on my desk. Otherwise I get into going back and forth and it affects the time I actually spend writing. I'm a writer and spend hours each day on my KBs. I still like and use my 87UB; but 55 grams is a lot to handle for seven to nine hours of keyboard work.
Your preference is MX Browns in Cherry switches?
You and I are so alike. I too alternated between an 87u 55g, and an mx brown board. It was sort of weird, at first I really enjoyed browns, I typed quicker on them than any other switch that I had used prior, and they provided some subtle tactility for general typing that did help cut down on my typing errors. However, the more I used them, the more I seemingly became bored with them. I tend to go through keyboards very quickly, I usually splurge on one, then end up selling it for a loss a couple of weeks later, this is what happened with the 87u and the Filco with browns. It wasn't necessarily the weight on the 87u that bothered me, I think it was partly a bit of buyers remorse to be honest, I'm not really sure. I was able to snag a "Like New" Used Filco from Amazon's Warehouse deals, and haven't looked back since. I installed a universal TKL plate on it so I'd be able to try out different switches in the future, but I've become so accustomed to the smooth linear feedback reds offer, that making any drastic changes right now seems somewhat impractical for me. I've been contemplating perhaps trying a different spring weights with the springs I picked up from sprit's group buy, but nothing much more than that at the moment. I do think that there's a bit of a learning curve when learning how to type fluidly on reds, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes a really enjoyable experience.
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You and I are so alike. I too alternated between an 87u 55g, and an mx brown board. It was sort of weird, at first I really enjoyed browns, I typed quicker on them than any other switch that I had used prior, and they provided some subtle tactility for general typing that did help cut down on my typing errors. However, the more I used them, the more I seemingly became bored with them. I tend to go through keyboards very quickly, I usually splurge on one, then end up selling it for a loss a couple of weeks later, this is what happened with the 87u and the Filco with browns. It wasn't necessarily the weight on the 87u that bothered me, I think it was partly a bit of buyers remorse to be honest, I'm not really sure. I was able to snag a "Like New" Used Filco from Amazon's Warehouse deals, and haven't looked back since. I installed a universal TKL plate on it so I'd be able to try out different switches in the future, but I've become so accustomed to the smooth linear feedback reds offer, that making any drastic changes right now seems somewhat impractical for me. I've been contemplating perhaps trying a different spring weights with the springs I picked up from sprit's group buy, but nothing much more than that at the moment. I do think that there's a bit of a learning curve when learning how to type fluidly on reds, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes a really enjoyable experience.
Flyersfan1: We are a lot alike. I also get bored with one key switch/keyboard. I, too, have bought and sold keyboards within a couple week period of time. So the MX Red Filco captured your favor. That's a bit of information I'll have to file away. If I find one, I may have to consider it. I do like the MX Red switch. I'll have an MX Blue tomorrow, Thursday, evening, to compare. I used to like MX Blue switches; but MX Reds are so nice... I'll have to see how the MX Blue KB compares. I like the 55-gram 87UB, but, I won't give up my MX Red KB. So many keyboards, so little time. And talk about going through keyboards quickly, we have the same affliction: boredom with one key switch. Thus far, Reds are hanging in there for me. However, I would like to see Cherry make a linear switch with 50 grams of required down-force. Just a tad more stiffness might be 'the' linear switch for me.
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I type on Red all the time, but only on my Kinesis Advantage/LF (which is a concave layout). I cannot bear the weightlessness of red on a flat layout. I also do not like brown on a flat layout for the same reason. If I have to choose between Red and Brown on a flat layout, I would pick brown since it has more feedback and so I will stop earlier, which gives an overall softer landing.
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I use MX reds at work when I'm not using my Topre board. With that being said, my MX boards are collecting dust at the moment.
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I use MX reds at work when I'm not using my Topre board. With that being said, my MX boards are collecting dust at the moment.
I've been alternating between my MX Red KB and my 87UB/55g. When the Topre's heavier switch becomes a bit too heavy for my digits, I make the transition to MX Reds, which are never demanding.
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I was able to make a side-by-side comparison between my MX Red and an MX Blue keyboard this evening. The Blue switches are louder than I remember and have too much click for me--something I never thought I'd say. With respect to Cherry MX series switches, I prefer MX Red to MX Blue. Perhaps, MX Browns may be more in line with MX Reds, but I don't need the tactile feel, or miss it from when I was using Blues, and I don't need/want the additional auditory feedback. Also, I did feel the added down-force required when using the MX Blue keyboard. I gather when one gets used to MX Reds, the 45-gram down-force and linear feel in an MX series become something of a given. Looks like I'll be keeping my MX Red keyboard.
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Well I have multiple keyboard within my reach all the time. I also have one ErgoDox with all possible MX Switches and combinations of springs (stock Cherry and Korean) to play around. I actually rotate 2 ErgoDoxes sometimes - one has stock MX Blues and one has the ghetto reds I mentioned earlier (case and stem is from Vintage MX Black and springs are from MX Blues). I can tell you exactly what the feel is when you switch between those combinations.
When switching from Red to Blue:
At first it feels harsh, almost hurting fingers with the tactility, and makes my ears bleed because of the noise. After few hours my hands get used to them and they feel really good. They have nice mechanical character and make me type pretty fast and without errors. Weighting is also nice, not tiring at all. In short, I could call this experience to be: CRISPY
When switching from Blue to Red (I remind you - those are smoother than standard Reds, they use Vintage Blacks as base, you can probably achieve this with lube):
From the beginning I feel amazing smoothness and cushiony bottoming out (this ErgoDox doesn't have metal plate for switches, MX Blue one has), also there is almost no sound, and whatever sounds are left, are actually quite soothing. There is almost no force required to activate keys, muscle memory from typing on MX Blues stops me from bottoming out and I can type really fast and fluid without errors. This experience can e described as: CREAMY
I also like stock Vintage Blacks - they're not too tiring at all, but I found that it's quite hard to get those switches to be consistent across the board since they're usually heavily used. I also have NIB Cherry boards from early 1990s but the springs are not that consistent as in new keyboards.
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Interesting comments; thanks for posting them. I wish I had an MX Brown keyboard to compare with my MX Red switches. I have to guess that MX Brown switches feel close to Reds; but never having done a side-by-side comparison, I can only speculate. I'm sure if I had stayed with the Blue keyboard, I'd have become accustomed to it. I used to use MX Blues almost exclusively. But after trying and getting used to MX Reds, I've come to prefer the switch's lighter required down-force along with the feel of a linear switch. My 55g Topre isn't linear, but it feels close to a linear switch; its slight tactility is barely perceptible to me. And even with the difference in switch weighting and type, I can make smooth transitions from Topre to MX Red or the reverse. Thus far, my 55-gram Topre and MX Red are my go-to keyboards.
Later-in-the-day update: MX Red/MX Brown
As fortune would have it, I made a few phone calls and I am getting my hands on a CMQFR/MX Brown to check out tomorrow, Saturday. I'll be able to do a comparison with my MX Reds.
I'm curious to see how Browns fare (for me), and which of the two switches is preferable. I've used MX Brown keyboards, but I've not had an opportunity to do a side-by-side comparison.
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You might find that MX brown just feels like a gritty red. This is my impression from several switch testers.
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There's supposedly a bit difference between NIB and broken-in browns... and definitely stock versus properly lubed browns. I admit browns *can* feel good, but it's not easy to achieve that.
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hahaha...last time i used red cherry for typing i didn't feel like typing...for me for typing i prefer blue, and for gaming i prefer black or brown....
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With such variety of opinions, it's starting to sound like it might just be a matter of personal preference?! ;D
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I doon't know about you guisse, but Redds are perfectt for typing.
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The CMQFR/MX Brown is here. I've been using it for about 15 minutes only. Early impressions are: MX Browns don’t feel at all gritty to me. They feel like a slightly but noticeably heavier version of MX Red switches. But noticeably lighter than MX Blues, and to me more fluid. The tactile bump is noticeable, but it's really slight, far less noticeable than an MX Blue switch. Will I prefer them to MX Reds? I’ll use them exclusively today and see how the keyboard and I fare. Thus far, I like the feel. I had been thinking about getting an MX Red KB and putting in heavier springs; but the Browns may negate making a change in stock Red switches.
I had an MX Brown a couple years ago and didn't care for the lighter switch--my preference for switches has changed. The added required down-force of MX Browns feels, how do I say this?, pleasurable to actuate. The added resistance throughout each key's travel may make for more accurate typing (for me). The sound level of this keyboard compared with the MX Red KB is about the same, except I seem to be bottoming out less with Browns. This may be attributable to the tactile bump. Not until using a linear switch did I realize how a tactile bump might prevent one from bottoming-out key strikes. But it's early in the day for me, and after writing for several hours, I may be bottoming out all my key strikes. The MX Browns are much quieter than the Blues I tried, thank you, Cherry.
I've some writing/editing to do today; so this keyboard will get a good one-day workout. If I like it, I'll buy it. The guy wants $55 for it. It looks new and was packaged as new. In fact, after using it for the day, it's now used and I will buy it. Done.
I agree with zig_ziglar: key switches are a matter of personal preference. For me, the 55g Topre is one keyboard that I prefer and is always on my desk; and the other keyboard, if not my MX Red, it may be this MX Brown. Regardless, I'll keep the K65/MX Red keyboard--I like MX Red switches.
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I doon't know about you guisse, but Redds are perfectt for typing.
LOL. :)
But seriously, Red on a concave layout (such as the one on a Kinesis) feels extremely usable for typing and I rarely (if ever) run into double-taps, which is a frequent problem for me on a flat Red layout. Thus, although it turned out I still prefer Brown in Kinesis, I have to acknowledge Red in Kinesis is very good too. If you ever test out Kinesis, be sure to check out Red over there.
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I had to delete my original post I had posted here. I continue to go back to the
MX Brown keyboard; so the comparison is incomplete. I thought I had made my
decision, only to return to the keyboard I was going to dismiss, CMQFR/MX Brown.
Looks like I have to return to the MX Brown keyboard another time for another go.
MX Red or MX Brown? Good question. Perhaps Methinks both.
Later the same evening:
Methinking was wrong, tainted MX Brown. The keyboard began throwing out random
characters and wouldn't accept some commands like Caps at the beginning of a sentence.
As I told a friend on GH, my fingers feel like lead from all the re-do work. Done! Browns are
gone, gone forever. Obviously, the keyboard is defective; and the guy I got it from knows
that I know. So instead than giving him $55 on Monday, he's getting back is defective KB.
I really dislike when guys sell you something they know isn't right. Party's over, it's back
to the fluidity of MX Red switches.
MX Reds for typing? Yes! End-use for this CMQFR/MX Brown keyboard: speed bump.
It may be that MX Red switches are closing in on my 55g Topres for most favored key switch, which
borders heresy on Geekhack--so it goes. MX Red switches in a K65... linear goodness at the ready.
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New guy around here. I've used MX browns and blues, and I am interested in reds but I am not sure how they compare. I am currently on a filco mj2 with blues and for gaming I don't like the fact that I have to release my finger quite a bit to get the switch to reset which was why I am looking at reds. Is the cleaning of typing clean and crisp like on blues? I used a FC660M with browns before my filco but as soon as I typed on the blues, the browns just felt mushy and weird. Are reds anything like that?
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New guy around here. I've used MX browns and blues, and I am interested in reds but I am not sure how they compare. I am currently on a filco mj2 with blues and for gaming I don't like the fact that I have to release my finger quite a bit to get the switch to reset which was why I am looking at reds. Is the cleaning of typing clean and crisp like on blues? I used a FC660M with browns before my filco but as soon as I typed on the blues, the browns just felt mushy and weird. Are reds anything like that?
Typing on reds are very fast and fluent. You can just barley touch the keys and they register so easily. This is perfect for what you are looking for and help greatly when it comes to typing fatigue. I spent about a year typing on them and absolutely love them. Actually decided to try Topre ( which is my new favorite switch), but reds are my favorite cherry mx switch by far. I would highly recommend typing on them before you buy if you can.
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I've been using reds exclusively on my home (gaming) PC for a few months now. For me at least, I think the grass eventually seems greener. I'm starting to yearn for my browns again (will have to fix that board up).
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I've been using reds exclusively on my home (gaming) PC for a few months now. For me at least, I think the grass eventually seems greener. I'm starting to yearn for my browns again (will have to fix that board up).
They are a great switch but I agree. I didn't know how much I missed the tactile feedback until I got this Topre. They don't give you the same "bump" like a brown or a blue but more of a tactile feeling when you bottom out. Typing on this over the weekend has really made me want to stay with this switch.
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.... as soon as I typed on the blues, the browns just felt mushy and weird. Are reds anything like that?
The reds are light and smooth to the bottom. I know what you mean about the mushy feel of browns... I find the tactile bump in browns can sometimes feel more like roughness than tactile; ie, it's not tactile enough to feel deliberate, almost as if it's a flaw. I still include them in the rotation though because, well, I'm an addict. ;D
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The bump in clears is more pronounced, isn't it? Could you re-spring clears with springs from reds/browns and end up with browns with a more deliberate feeling tactility? OR would the bump interfere with the reset at those lighter spring rates?
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I've been using reds exclusively on my home (gaming) PC for a few months now. For me at least, I think the grass eventually seems greener. I'm starting to yearn for my browns again (will have to fix that board up).
They are a great switch but I agree. I didn't know how much I missed the tactile feedback until I got this Topre. They don't give you the same "bump" like a brown or a blue but more of a tactile feeling when you bottom out. Typing on this over the weekend has really made me want to stay with this switch.
I mean I have now since tried brown switches on 2 keyboards and blues on 1. My first mx brown board which was a max keyboard was a good experience, since those browns felt a little more tactile than my second mx brown board which was on a fc660m. The leopold just felt really mushy compared to the clean tactile bump on the blues.
.... as soon as I typed on the blues, the browns just felt mushy and weird. Are reds anything like that?
The reds are light and smooth to the bottom. I know what you mean about the mushy feel of browns... I find the tactile bump in browns can sometimes feel more like roughness than tactile; ie, it's not tactile enough to feel deliberate, almost as if it's a flaw. I still include them in the rotation though because, well, I'm an addict. ;D
Yeah I have read a lot of people saying browns are like a broken red switch. Also I hope I don't become an addict my wallet will hate me haha
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New guy around here. I've used MX browns and blues, and I am interested in reds but I am not sure how they compare. I am currently on a filco mj2 with blues and for gaming I don't like the fact that I have to release my finger quite a bit to get the switch to reset which was why I am looking at reds. Is the cleaning of typing clean and crisp like on blues? I used a FC660M with browns before my filco but as soon as I typed on the blues, the browns just felt mushy and weird. Are reds anything like that?
It will hard for Red to match the crispness of your Blue MJ2. Red is smooth, but so smooth that it has very little feedback. There is a bit of tactileness when your finger meets a key's surface, and then it's smooth all the way down until you hit the bottom, at which point what you feel depends on your typing style. I try not to bottom out on Red, but I still touch the bottom most of the time except that my finger is already in the deceleration phase and thus it's a soft-landing.
For stock switches, the folk wisdom that "blue is better for text/code, red is better for games, and brown is a nice all-rounder" is about as accurate as it can get.
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Topre's 55-gram has a unique and different feel when compared with Cherry MX-series and buckling-spring switches. It is an exceptional key-switch with great feel. I like my Topre and will keep it, but after a few hours of writing, my fingers fatigue (perhaps because of my age), which is when I use my MX Red keyboard. However, lately there have been days when I've used my MX Red keyboard exclusively. I think the primary complaint about Reds is that they actuate too easily. And there are days when I type more efficiently with my 55-gram 87UB--it's a keyboarder's conundrum. Today is a Topre day.
Switches are dependent on one's personal preference; and the only way to know if Reds are right for you, is to get an MX Red keyboard and give it a go. When I first got this keyboard, it took about two weeks to learn/understand the feel of MX Reds in order to type accurately with them.
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I had to recant this post. Mea culpa.
I had to recant this post about not being able to find my feel with MX Reds today; I was making
a lot of typos this morning and seemed to have lost my feel for Reds. The problem: I had slightly
elevated the space-bar edge of the keyboard as a trial-elevation, but had forgotten that I left the
thicker feet, 1/4", in place. As soon as I recalled what I had done, I removed the trial feet and the
Reds are working for me as before. No more space-bar-edge-elevation trials--lesson learned.
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Changing to contoured or concave key caps
I made a discovery, for me, that has improved, markedly, the feel and accuracy in my MX Red switches. I just started a thread under Keyboard Key Caps: Key-Cap Contour Can Make a Signicant Difference in Keyboard Feel that discusses the improvement in feel when I changed my stock key caps for a more contoured or concave set from an old Leopold TKL. The switches performance and my accuracy/speed have improved. My MX Red keyboard went from great to fantastic. The stock key caps were somewhat concave; but these Leopold TKL caps, perhaps two-year old but unused, are more concave and each cap better aligns and centers one's fingers.
By comparison, one that may be common to many of us, CMQFR's key caps are flatter than Filco and Leopold's TKL caps. I had liked CMQFR's key caps and the stock caps on my K65; this is until I tried these more concave key caps--the difference is incredible.
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Changing to contoured or concave key caps
I made a discovery, for me, that has improved, markedly, the feel and accuracy in my MX Red switches. I just started a thread under Keyboard Key Caps: Key-Cap Contour Can Make a Signicant Difference in Keyboard Feel that discusses the improvement in feel when I changed my stock key caps for a more contoured or concave set from an old Leopold TKL. The switches performance and my accuracy/speed have improved. My MX Red keyboard went from great to fantastic. The stock key caps were somewhat concave; but these Leopold TKL caps, perhaps two-year old but unused, are more concave and each cap better aligns and centers one's fingers.
By comparison, one that may be common to many of us, CMQFR's key caps are flatter than Filco and Leopold's TKL caps. I had liked CMQFR's key caps and the stock caps on my K65; this is until I tried these more concave key caps--the difference is incredible.
And people wonder why I dislike DSA profile caps.
Also, Reds are great for typing. I use them and Blacks interchangeably. But my true preference is for something right in between the two, meaning 65g Korean springs.
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Changing to contoured or concave key caps
I made a discovery, for me, that has improved, markedly, the feel and accuracy in my MX Red switches. I just started a thread under Keyboard Key Caps: Key-Cap Contour Can Make a Signicant Difference in Keyboard Feel that discusses the improvement in feel when I changed my stock key caps for a more contoured or concave set from an old Leopold TKL. The switches performance and my accuracy/speed have improved. My MX Red keyboard went from great to fantastic. The stock key caps were somewhat concave; but these Leopold TKL caps, perhaps two-year old but unused, are more concave and each cap better aligns and centers one's fingers.
By comparison, one that may be common to many of us, CMQFR's key caps are flatter than Filco and Leopold's TKL caps. I had liked CMQFR's key caps and the stock caps on my K65; this is until I tried these more concave key caps--the difference is incredible.
And people wonder why I dislike DSA profile caps.
Also, Reds are great for typing. I use them and Blacks interchangeably. But my true preference is for something right in between the two, meaning 65g Korean springs.
I agree. I'd love to see Cherry produce one more linear switch between their 45g and 60g switch. I was thinking today if they made a 53g linear, how sweet a switch would this be? A 65g Korean spring Cherry? Sign me up. I am into these concave key caps. I couldn't resist and ordered a set from WASD this evening. I've got two K65/MX Red KBs; and I can't see not having concave switches on both board. I'm with the man from Odessa. I spent some time in San Angelo many years ago--I loved West Texas.
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I guess it's personal preference, but I'm 100% with you guys. Typing on unsculpted profiles feels absolutely horrible to me. The fact that I have short fingers might contribute - I'm not sure. The profile used by WASD is classified as "OEM", even though oem stands for original manufacturer and some manufacturers offer different profiles. Silly.
This profile is pretty much the same as appears on the good old IBM Model M, except that the M uses a concave plate, rather than different keep cap angles. Such genius.
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I guess it's personal preference, but I'm 100% with you guys. Typing on unsculpted profiles feels absolutely horrible to me. The fact that I have short fingers might contribute - I'm not sure. The profile used by WASD is classified as "OEM", even though oem stands for original manufacturer and some manufacturers offer different profiles. Silly.
This profile is pretty much the same as appears on the good old IBM Model M, except that the M uses a concave plate, rather than different keep cap angles. Such genius.
I used to use Model M keyboards. The IBM manufactured Model Ms are still great KBs; and the key caps have a comfortable concave profile with a natural feel. With the exception of IBM's use of plastic rivets, the Model M was early keyboard perfection. I can't use BS switches because of the required down force. It's too great for aging digits. These days I'm using MX Red keyboards exclusively and I quite like the feel of this light-action linear switch. I'd like to try double-shot concave caps. I have a set of WASD caps on the way. I'll give a key-cap update after I get them. I've two K65 keyboards; I'll keep these Leopold concave caps on one; and install WASD's on the other. I'll be able to do a same-keyboard comparison. If WASD's caps are that good, I may have to order a second set. I had a set of Filco key caps that I gave to a friend; they had concave surfaces and felt pretty good for typing.
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My bad: upon further examination of a single Leopold key cap, I can see they are cylindrical, not spherical. Concave, contoured, yes; but cylindrical. Had it not been for JDCarpe expansive explanations and tricheboars setting me on a seach, I'd have been looking for the incorrect profile. Thank you very much, guys.
And on a positive note, it looks like the WASD caps I ordered may work for me.
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I believe the keycap shape does depend on which Leopold keyboard in particular you're referring to. Take the F700R for example, the key shape is the same as model m, but the profile is a shorter version of OEM - still the same angles, but not as tall.
And I'm with you on the M - my arthritic fingers are suffering from its use, but it's just so nice :( so I'm struggling to let go of it as a daily at work.
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I believe the keycap shape does depend on which Leopold keyboard in particular you're referring to. Take the F700R for example, the key shape is the same as model m, but the profile is a shorter version of OEM - still the same angles, but not as tall.
And I'm with you on the M - my arthritic fingers are suffering from its use, but it's just so nice :( so I'm struggling to let go of it as a daily at work.
I feel your pain. I went through a period where I wouldn't stop using the SSKs I had; and finally, my keyboard time was so curtailed because of the BS switches, I had to admit that it was time to move on. I also found that my 55g 87UB was a bit too heavy for extended periods of typing; I've had to put it up for sale. I was thinking of another MX Blue KB, just for a change in feel. But I can use MX Red switches all day with no aching fingers. I've nothing but praise for Reds, even though I occasionally find myself going through typing errors' thing. Red do call for mindful finger placement. All the BS switches I've used, IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp, have brought about discomfort. I've had to eliminate them forever.
Forgot to mention: these Leopold key caps are off an FC200R keyboard. I have a sense that Leopold may be deleting this series in favor of the 700 series TKLs.
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My WASD key caps came in today's post. I love the way they feel. They are much nicer ABS caps than many of the stock caps I've had. $47 is pricy for ABS, but WASD does a fine job of molding, I would guess injection molded, these caps and printing the key-caps' legends. I may have to buy a second set for my other K65--these are nice caps. They also fit snugly on the MX-switch stems. I can see why WASD does a good key-cap business. They may only be ABS, but they are nicely made ABS caps. Kudos to WASD. I placed more detailed comments under Key-Cap Contour Can Make a Signicant Difference in Keyboard Feel in Keyboard Key Caps.
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My accuracy suffers when typing with reds, but I can live with them.
If I can reach 100% accuracy on red, it's faster than brown of course.
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I started learning touch-typing on CM QFR with reds few months ago.
So far i can get to max 80 wpm, 60 on average.
I tried to learn so i don't bottom out often. First it seemed impossible but now i'm getting the hang of it.
What is interesting in my case is, more i type, more i bottom out. After i take a small break, a minute or so, i type smoothly without bottoming the strokes. After a while the smoothness is gone until i take the next break.
Any tips?
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The following goes against some ergonomic advices I read, but I find a substantial improvement in not bottoming-out on lighter switches when I rest my wrists on a tall foam rest and pop up my keyboard (I mean the effect of popping up the legs at the back of the keyboard). The wrist rest makes the keyboard more or less a stationary target in the vertical axis relative to my hands, and the angle reduces the distance that my wrists have to move in the the back and forth axis.
Once you do this, you may very quickly notice that my biggest enemy on a standard layout: backspace. On a flat red, it is pretty much the only reason I have to un-anchor my wrists in normal typing. (Truly Ergonomic solved that problem for me when I was trying it, though it had other problems...)
P.S. I don't use flat red regularly anymore. For red, I switched to Kinesis (which is not flat) and it really shines over there. The foam rest I use is 3M WR209MB. It looks super ugly when paired with a TKL, but trust me the comfort it delivers is unparalleled. :thumb:
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The following goes against some ergonomic advices I read, but I find a substantial improvement in not bottoming-out on lighter switches when I rest my wrists on a tall foam rest and pop up my keyboard (I mean the effect of popping up the legs at the back of the keyboard). The wrist rest makes the keyboard more or less a stationary target in the vertical axis relative to my hands, and the angle reduces the distance that my wrists have to move in the the back and forth axis.
Once you do this, you may very quickly notice that my biggest enemy on a standard layout: backspace. On a flat red, it is pretty much the only reason I have to un-anchor my wrists in normal typing. (Truly Ergonomic solved that problem for me when I was trying it, though it had other problems...)
P.S. I don't use flat red regularly anymore. For red, I switched to Kinesis (which is not flat) and it really shines over there. The foam rest I use is 3M WR209MB. It looks super ugly when paired with a TKL, but trust me the comfort it delivers is unparalleled. :thumb:
I use, stack, 1/4" felt pads to fine-tune a keyboard's elevation. My hands kind of float over the keyboard with my elbows resting on the arms of my chair. This works for me on my flat keyboard. I've never tried a Kinesis. Bottoming-out is a leftover from my manual typewriter years. There are times my key strikes are less forceful; but I don't pay special attention to the depth of my key strokes. I had to revise this response because I'm changed the pitch of my keyboard. 3/4" elevation under the F-key edge, and stock height under the space-bar edge.
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Red O-Rings for MX Red Switches
I sold my Topre keyboards in favor of my K65/MX Red keyboards (2x)--the fluid feel of this linear switch is, for me, unmatched. I tried black o-rings on an MX Blue keyboard I had and disliked the .4mm reduction in key travel. The red o-rings reduce key travel by only .2mm, which still delivers good depth to each key strike. The positives with the addition of the .2mm o-rings are many: my typing speed has increased; I have fewer typos (or so I think); of course, key strokes are quieter without being dead silent, so there continues to be aural feedback, which I like; and I'm bottoming out let less forcefully. I think the quiet has affected key-strike force for me--and the softer bottom-out landing is preferable to hard-surface landings--I know, stop bottoming out; well, that's easier said than done. Also, the space bar (Cherry stabilizer) on the K65 is noisier than the KB's other switches; therefore, I doubled the o-rings, .4mm total, under the space bar for the switch and the two stabilizer fittings. I don't know if there's a difference among manufacturer's red o-rings; for the record, I bought these from WASD via Amazon.
I'll state the obvious: I'm posting this to praise the addition of red o-rings to MX Red switches. For me, they have improved what is a great feeling key switch for typing. I usually prefer full-key travel; but the .2mm reduction in travel hasn't still leaves a excellent key travel, perhaps even improved, unlike the black o-rings I had tried. As I said, when I first tried red o-rings, I disliked them; but I was only about a week into using these switches. Now that I've weeks of using MX Red switches, I appreciate Red-on-Red. My search for an MX switch that performs for me is over; and with the addition of red o-rings, hours of typing has improved in feel, aural feedback, and maintaining speed as a day wears on. Today is the first full day I've used the keyboard with o-rings. I'll see how this goes over the next few days; but I have no reason to think there will be a decrement in performance or feel. Now I have to 'do up' the other K65 with red o-rings.
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I gave up on my reds for daily use and only used them for gaming. Now a day I barely bother using them. It's mostly just a nice show piece I got propped up on my side desk all dolled up with a nice keycap setup and custom case.
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MX Red Switches/Red O-Rings, Day Two
After using MX Red switches with red o-rings for another day, the combination feels exceptionally comfortable and even more fluid than the bare switch, which may be attributable to a slightly abbreviated key stroke. If there was a learning curve in relation to the key switch's feel, it came about in little time. I tried my other K65 sans red o-rings; and although the bare switch feels good, the addition of red o-rings has, for me, improved the switch's overall feel and action. The shorter key-stroke feels more natural to me and less like driving my fingers into the keyboard (I bottom-out my key strokes); and I'm subconsciously less force to actuate each switch.
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I use red for typing everyday, and they are a pleasure to type on. I am planning to add red o rings that if I remember well are 40.
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I use red for typing everyday, and they are a pleasure to type on. I am planning to add red o rings that if I remember well are 40.
The o-rings are listed as 40A-L, 0.2mm thickness. They are the softest among red, blue, and black o-rings, and the thinnest. Blue and Black o-rings are firmer, black is the firmest, and both are 0.4mm thick, which diminishes key travel too much for me; and each key lands much harder than red o-rings. The difference in MX Red switches with red o-rings makes this switch so much more efficient and more pleasurable to use. If you add them to your switches, I'b be curious to know what you think of them.
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After using MX Red switches with red o-rings for another day, the combination feels exceptionally comfortable and even more fluid than the bare switch, which may be attributable to a slightly abbreviated key stroke.
My thoughts exactly. Typing with o-rings on MX Reds is one of the best experiences ever.
Can you elaborate on the difference in fluidity compared to Topre switches? I have yet to type extensively on a Topre keyboard (tried one briefly in Japan), but was looking to get one sooner or later.
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After using MX Red switches with red o-rings for another day, the combination feels exceptionally comfortable and even more fluid than the bare switch, which may be attributable to a slightly abbreviated key stroke.
My thoughts exactly. Typing with o-rings on MX Reds is one of the best experiences ever.
Can you elaborate on the difference in fluidity compared to Topre switches? I have yet to type extensively on a Topre keyboard (tried one briefly in Japan), but was looking to get one sooner or later.
There is no difference in fluidity between any switch..
Fluid key transitions the user's responsibility..
Once you get used to the timing differences between switches.. you can be equally fluid on ANY switch...
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After using MX Red switches with red o-rings for another day, the combination feels exceptionally comfortable and even more fluid than the bare switch, which may be attributable to a slightly abbreviated key stroke.
My thoughts exactly. Typing with o-rings on MX Reds is one of the best experiences ever.
Can you elaborate on the difference in fluidity compared to Topre switches? I have yet to type extensively on a Topre keyboard (tried one briefly in Japan), but was looking to get one sooner or later.
There is no difference in fluidity between any switch..
Fluid key transitions the user's responsibility..
Once you get used to the timing differences between switches.. you can be equally fluid on ANY switch...
Heh, I guess I've heard one too many people with Topre switches blaring out that Topre feels far smoother than any Cherry switch.
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Seems like I've missed this thread earlier for some reason. Here's my input however: Typing on Red switches feel great and natural for me. I can easily achieve 110+ WPM without errors on Reds, and I bottom out all the time (a preference a bad habit). The typical "reds are more prone to typing errors" doesn't apply to me, so it really is subjective to each person.
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When I'm tired I make a few more mistakes with reds. My second favorite switch.
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How one perceives a switch's feel is subjective.
Fluidity: I'm not referring to the transition between keys; I am referring to the action of the switch. The slightly reduced travel makes for a more 'fluid' feel for me; and the softer landing adds to the feel of the switch when I bottom out, which is with each key stroke. Red o-rings have, for me, enhanced overall feel of this linear switch. When adding o-rings to a stock switch can make a significant 'perceived' difference, it's worth sharing one's overview.
I've come to prefer linear switches for their uninterrupted key stroke, i.e., no tactile bump interrupting each key stroke. Not everyone feels that a tactile bump is an interruption; but for it is. And the additon of red o-rings have, for me, refined the feel of a great key switch.
I've used MX Greens, and they are not, for me, a fluid key switch. And those who prefer MX Red switches may not fine MX Green switches agreeable. Same for Topre. I've owned 45g and 55g Topre keyboards. And for me, my MX Red keyboards outperform (in smoothness of key strokes and comfort) the Topre-switch keyboards I've owned.
As I said, key-switch feel is subjective.
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Smooth? #vintage MX Black master race
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Smooth? #vintage MX Black master race
I honestly don't think well-used-blacks are much outperformed by vintage-blacks in smooth slidage..
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It's been here before... Not all #vintage switches are created equal, but when some are indeed better, they're consistently better across the board. That would be difficult to achieve in case of breaking in by use.
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It's been here before... Not all #vintage switches are created equal, but when some are indeed better, they're consistently better across the board. That would be difficult to achieve in case of breaking in by use.
What is the difference between vintage Blacks and newer Black switches? I've tried only the newer MX Blacks, and they felt too heavy for long-term typing.
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Ideally, they're much smoother, like filled with a liquid. There isn't the plastic-on-plastic friction, that is obvious (at least to me) on other switches, when pressed slowly.
It appears that Cherry Corp. used different materials/molds over time, but not consistently. Old switches often had bigger logos, but not always—there are even reports of different logos together on one keyboard. Then there are Nixdorf vintage blacks with clear housings. I've seen at least two kinds of spring materials in MX switches; BTW Cherry Corp. reportedly changed spring material in MX Blue, there's a thread about it at DT. However, my hypothesis is that the smooth vintage blacks used a different kind of plastic.
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Ideally, they're much smoother, like filled with a liquid. There isn't the plastic-on-plastic friction, that is obvious (at least to me) on other switches, when pressed slowly.
It appears that Cherry Corp. used different materials/molds over time, but not consistently. Old switches often had bigger logos, but not always—there are even reports of different logos together on one keyboard. Then there are Nixdorf vintage blacks with clear housings. I've seen at least two kinds of spring materials in MX switches; BTW Cherry Corp. reportedly changed spring material in MX Blue, there's a thread about it at DT. However, my hypothesis is that the smooth vintage blacks used a different kind of plastic.
It sounds as if Cherry changed the molds and the plastics used in the switch. Companies will occasionally omit pricey plastics additives that enhance 'slip' to their material to cut cost and, what generally follows, increase profit. Also, from what you had to say, Cherry may have used different molds to, I would guess, injection mold their switches' plastics parts.
Thanks for your explanation of vintage Black switches--I find this interesting. The Blacks with greater 'slip' are a a switch I might have liked; I prefer linear to tactile key switches. It may be the days of the smoothness of vintage Blacks is in the past, just like the old air-cooled, vintage, VWs. It's unfortunate when a company has a solid product, they choose, for whatever reason, to change or discontinue it. Thanks again for much-appreciated information. I'll have to read about the new spring material you mentioned in MX Blue switches.
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I could add that I also think that vintage mx blacks feels smoother than new mx blacks.
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Beating the Red-O-Ring Thing into Submission
I may as well beat lthe subject of red o-rings a little more. I have two K65 MX Red keyboards, I like the KB that much, and one has red o-rings, the other bare switches. I've been alternating keyboards to see whether or not red o-rings are novelty. Both keyboards feel good; but the o-ring keyboard feels more fluid for typing, which is all I do on my KBs. However, when I want a change in feel, I'll take out the bare switch and use it for a bit; then return to the preferable feel of the keyboard with o-rings. I like the quiet and no matter how forceful I strike each key, the keyboard feels much easier on my digits than the bare switch.
I neither can extract anything more from MX Red switches with o-rings, nor say that you should continue to read these posts on the subject...
unless I offer each reader an incentive like a free set of luggage, a Chia Pet, or a Ginsu knife. Actually, I think it preferable to make this the end-point for... well, I'm sure you get it.