Author Topic: The Living 3D Printing Thread  (Read 198743 times)

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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #200 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 19:50:18 »
I see the problem being the temperature gradient from the heat block which you want to keep hot and the teflon and PEEK which you want to keep cold. When you start up, you can basically not input enough heat into the heat block as that is the limiting factor for speed, and the PEEK remains as a barrier making the temperature gradient sharp. Once you approach steady state, that temperature barrier smooths out and you get a wider gradient which begins to affect the teflon and the parts higher up causing things to melt prematurely.

If you were to maintain a sharp temperature gradient, then the heat input could be increased, thus allowing a more rapid build speed and decrease the risk of clogging before it reaches the nozzle. The way this is usually achieved is by a better insulator (mostly delays the point where the gradient reaches through, which isn't suitable for long builds) or you apply a barrier which removes heat, ie a cooling block. The cooling block would need to be compensated by increased heat input, but it alloows for the temperature gradient to be sharper.

This is what I gather from your descriptions.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #201 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 20:03:30 »
here is the problem i have with this. teflon is a thermal insulator (among plastics it's certainly not the best, but it also has a very very high melt point and is slippery, so i think it's a good choice of materials here). that means that it's hard to heat up, but that also means that it's hard to cool down. it should not be getting hot, period. correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe what you just said is that the teflon does extend into the heated metal portion (unless the brass nozzle extends all the way up into the peek -- it is not clear from the diagram. imo this is a design error to me (but a fixable one). ideally, you want an instant transition from solid to very not solid when you hit the heater. that means no thermal insulator ever between heated portion of head and not-heated portion of head and then infinite amounts of current into the heated portion such that it is a theoretically constant 230C or so (ie, instaneous thermal recovery).

Here is a pic on the internals and how it works.

The innermost teflon actually slides into the nozzle as far as shown (6.5mm).
The outer teflon layer butts up against the end of the nozzle (represented here by the blue tube thingy).


It looks like the nozzle design was originally for 3mm filament and they simply added more teflon to adapt it to 1.75mm. This is common, and would probably be fine were it not for the teflon sliding into the nozzle.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #202 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 20:08:56 »
If you were to maintain a sharp temperature gradient, then the heat input could be increased, thus allowing a more rapid build speed and decrease the risk of clogging before it reaches the nozzle. The way this is usually achieved is by a better insulator (mostly delays the point where the gradient reaches through, which isn't suitable for long builds) or you apply a barrier which removes heat, ie a cooling block. The cooling block would need to be compensated by increased heat input, but it alloows for the temperature gradient to be sharper.

This is what I gather from your descriptions.
Correct

The E3d all metal hot end maker claims a transition from solid to melted in 3mm. This head starts at probably 5mm-10mm, but as time goes on, it stretches to about 25mm transition zone which is when things clog.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #203 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 20:22:03 »
darmogue breakin it down. basically you either need to keep your cool end cooler while keeping the hot end constant or v.v.

i would go with heatsinking your hot end and applying more power to it. reason: things with high thermal conductivity are thermodynamically more malleable. that's what thermal conductivity means

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #204 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 20:30:30 »
darmogue breakin it down. basically you either need to keep your cool end cooler while keeping the hot end constant or v.v.

That was my idea while back, but if I run it cooler, it means printing slower.
In the end, I can run hotter and faster or cooler and slower, either way, I end up clogging at the same point in a print.


As for the heatsink idea,
I insulated the end of the head, blocked off all drafts, and put two 50mm fans blowing onto just the Peek. It didn't help. So I'm done with this head. I just need to get a mount printed (trying it in parts) and I can throw this in the spare parts bin and use a better head.
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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #205 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 20:34:21 »
You  will need to remove heat from the PEEK by any means possible. I was trying to think of a good way to divert heat away from there, but the problem is that it moves around and any extra size and weight like heatsinks or connections in the form of hoses to the moving entity will carry disadvantages.

Just to confirm, with that model it is the head which moves around and not the build, correct?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #206 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 20:41:49 »
You  will need to remove heat from the PEEK by any means possible. I was trying to think of a good way to divert heat away from there, but the problem is that it moves around and any extra size and weight like heatsinks or connections in the form of hoses to the moving entity will carry disadvantages.

Just to confirm, with that model it is the head which moves around and not the build, correct?
Correct, it's a Rostock Delta.

I thought about watercooling the Peek, but decided it's just not worth the effort.

At least one company is looking into the idea though. You could get by with a pair of 1/4in tubes to transport the coolant.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #207 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 21:03:40 »
i would rank "exploding head" as a bigger problem than "adding some inertial error" and start adding heatsinks. cheap extrusions are plentiful at any electronics surplus store

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #208 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 23:38:17 »
i would rank "exploding head" as a bigger problem than "adding some inertial error" and start adding heatsinks. cheap extrusions are plentiful at any electronics surplus store
Yes, but water cooling is so geek chic!  :cool:

Actually one of the reasons they are considering water cooling is due to size constraints, fitting two hot ends and effective cooling into a Delta effector can be a challenge.

I considered it simply because I probably have everything I need to do it just sitting on a shelf.  ;D Though I would hate to see what would happen to my glass plate if it sprung a bad leak suddenly while the bed was at 100c.

A major issue is mounting a heat sink, any idea what sticks to Peek and is thermally conductive? I have no idea, not that I went looking. The best idea I had (other than watercooling) was to cut the Peek down to a sliver of itself and thread on a chunk of finned aluminum onto it. Then I started thinking well, why use Peek at all, just use a thin aluminum tube up to some fins. At which point I started contemplating just making my own all metal head...

At what point do you say enough of this, and just buy something known to work better. I don't mind making things and fooling around, but sometimes the results are just not worth the effort you put in. I think I spend a whopping $40 on the hot end, with bowden assembly, and it was only meant for short term use. My only real complaint is that I already replaced most of the parts I planned on keeping (the bowden assembly).
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #209 on: Sat, 22 June 2013, 04:48:40 »
Woot!
First print, new nozzle (a .35), and WOW what a difference.

With conservative settings and no pre-test, I was printing at my old speed again and my infill is already better than almost all I did with the old nozzle.  It's not perfect and I still need to dial things in, but it's like someone switched the game from hard to easy.

Unfortunately Slic3r is up to it's old tricks, trying to switch directions in mid air, but hey, things are looking up.
« Last Edit: Sat, 22 June 2013, 15:00:37 by Leslieann »
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #210 on: Sat, 22 June 2013, 05:37:22 »
Here is an interesting info about forces required from an extruder cold end.
http://airtripper.com/1338/airtripper-extruder-filament-force-sensor-introduction/
Unfortunately he does not specify his nozzle and the filament.

Interesting, I skimmed it a bit but will go back and read more of it.
He did mention the head, under a picture, it's a J-Head V9 clone (J-head is an open source design and tons of people are making them, some good, some not so good and in many wild variations).

His filament is 1.75mm based on the pictures (scale of teflon vs other parts of the extruder). I have an Airtripper extruder, works well, but it's much more complicated than some of the newer designs.

He uses a modified Airteripper too and somewhere else he mentions that it is not good for 3mm filament. So even from that we can assume 1.75 filament. No idea what material was used, since temperatures he is trying seem too hot for PLA and cold for ABS. Does J-Head V9 come with different nozzle sizes? Or is it only 0.5mm? .... I'll try to ask these things on his web directly.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #211 on: Sat, 22 June 2013, 05:54:01 »
few reasons for this: my head to plate tolerances right now are around +-0.1mm and my head to head (remember, two heads) tolerances are about 0.05mm. with abs and a 0.4mm head, i should actually be able to do about 0.1mm slice heights
I read somewhere (cannot find the web page now) that bed leveling should be precise to 1/5 of the layer height used.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #212 on: Sat, 22 June 2013, 08:11:44 »
i'd much prefer a full order of magnitude (cold) to give me enough fudge for thermal expansion, but you would probably need a runout meter that was accurate to 5 sig figs and a jig that was machined to be accurate to that degree as well, which i definitely do not have

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #213 on: Sat, 22 June 2013, 08:14:57 »
what was the opening diameter of your old nozzle, leslieann?

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #214 on: Sat, 22 June 2013, 13:08:35 »
my tiny family of traffic cones to push through the silly carpet. :D

anyway, i'm noticing that i'm getting the most inertial error on small y movements. the makerbot slicer's gcode generator doesn't slow down for these high frequency small distance back-and-forth y-movements and it's definitely causing some error -- you can see the whole 80lbs shaking when it does this. interestingly, the y-axis is driven by two belts due to some odd motor placement. thinking..

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #215 on: Sat, 22 June 2013, 15:26:56 »
He uses a modified Airteripper too and somewhere else he mentions that it is not good for 3mm filament. So even from that we can assume 1.75 filament. No idea what material was used, since temperatures he is trying seem too hot for PLA and cold for ABS. Does J-Head V9 come with different nozzle sizes? Or is it only 0.5mm? .... I'll try to ask these things on his web directly.
His temps could be a thermister not reading quite accurate, but also some ABS melts higher, some melts lower.

I didn't know there even was a J-head V9, but being open source and a clone, it could be something else just renamed. I thought officially the newest was a V5. They do come in various nozzles, but J-heads aren't very friendly towards this it seems.

Direct drive pushes too much filament per step with 3mm, particularly on nozzle sizes below .5. All that head pressure is hard on the stepper as well.

what was the opening diameter of your old nozzle, leslieann?

Oops, the new one is .35, could have sworn it was .4, now I need to check what I put in settings.

On my old nozzle I had a .35 and a .5. I bought the .5 for initial setup and the .35 for later, but when things went downhill, I went back to the .5 in hopes of getting things working again.


my tiny family of traffic cones to push through the silly carpet. :D

anyway, i'm noticing that i'm getting the most inertial error on small y movements. the makerbot slicer's gcode generator doesn't slow down for these high frequency small distance back-and-forth y-movements and it's definitely causing some error -- you can see the whole 80lbs shaking when it does this. interestingly, the y-axis is driven by two belts due to some odd motor placement. thinking..
That's hilarious, it's a bummer you didn't print them with a smiley face.  :))

That sounds like my issue when I cranked my print speed (waaaaay) up. I didn't get errors, but what a racket and I feared things might break.
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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #216 on: Sat, 22 June 2013, 15:34:29 »
Print a triangle lying down to get a frequency range and try to find at which frequencies it resonates and grows larger. Then try to dampen those by or avoid them. Or just make everything heavier by stacking bricks on top of the machine.

Hmm, Your cone will have the problem of high frequency turns any way you place it in a cartesian coordinate system and limit the amount of planes it can move in simultaneously. Can the raster pattern be changed to a circular one instead? I believe you are already doing the contours that way.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #217 on: Sat, 22 June 2013, 19:54:31 »
the slicers aren't smart enough to avoid certain frequencies. they aren't even smart enough to not do that stupid high frequency oscillation in the first place. (although i imagine i'll do my part to fix this in the fullness of time). i am actually going to put bricks on top of the machine, but i can't currently put anything truly heavy on top of the machine because of my carefully designed cardboard box lid highlighted in earlier photos. once the acrylic lid comes in, i'm going to redesign my current fume extractors (variations on the priority mail design from my DIY solder fume extractor thread) so that the fans are firmly mounted on the wall and push air through flexible tubing into 20-40lbs of charcoal distributed on top of and around the machine. the cutesy little traffic cones are also going to have to turn into much shorter spikes + sorbothane to lower the frequency of the whole system. the traffic cone thing was just convenient because one of the sample models is that traffic cone, and i had already printed one or two to test the machine.

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #218 on: Sun, 23 June 2013, 18:04:15 »
I was getting fantastic ABS and PLA prints, and then things started acting funny again.

On the ABS, I couldn't push filament through the bowden tube, and checking everything, I found my filament is 1.9mm. It wasn't that big at the start of the roll. A bit of checking shows ABS does absorb water (though PLA is worse) and when it does, the filament can swell (how much depends on the grade). Our humidity has been up to nearly 90% (yes, it's terrible). I tried baking the filament, but that did nothing to reduce the size. I'm still not sure if it's a matter of manufacturing, humidity or both, but it looks like I have at least a pound of useless filament.

I do keep the filament in ziplocks with silica gel, but that does nothing while I'm using it. I heard of at least one person built a semi-airtight chamber for his rolls, with only a small hole for the filament to exit just before entering the extruder, I may do that along with buying some better filament and building a fume extractor.


The PLA, was great last night, I was actually starting to see why people like it, I got two really nice rod ends from it, then went to bed. Today, I go to make more, and nothing works. Nothing changed, and yet it refuses to push filament through the nozzle. I cranked up temps, and extruder pressure, still no luck.  I just don't see how it works one minute and a few hours later, simply refuses to work despite nothing changing (and yes, I checked the filament diameter). I can get it hot enough to be drooling out the nozzle, tell it to print and it dries up in just a few minutes. Like I said it worked great last night. Now I get nothing.

I could strangle this thing sometimes.
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #219 on: Sun, 23 June 2013, 20:12:39 »
http://airtripper.com/1338/airtripper-extruder-filament-force-sensor-introduction/
Mark responded. He used 1.75mm PLA, nozzle size of 0.4mm. That means all the important data are there now.

Not sure whether I should feel bad about how filament is handled here. It is just thrown on a bench. It did not change diameter from the time I checked it (so it is stable at 1.7mm for at least 2 weeks). It is ABS. Typical humidity over here is in the 50-60%.

Is your filament nice and straight even when it is already pushed through extruder cold end (airtripper). The airtripper (as delivered) in the rostock here was bad. The plastic hole into which the filament is pushed did not start just after the gear and had big diameter (abut 4mm). This led to bowing of the filament especially when there was bigger amount of retracements. All the bowing created a sinusoid like wave on the filament in the bowden which led to occasional motor skipping.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #220 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 03:32:42 »
My filament comes out of the extruder about as curved as it goes in.
So long as it stays under 1.85 or so, it will get through the bowden just fine and work, above 1.85 and it starts creating too much drag (enough that I can feel it's shard to push).

I replaced my Airtripper, it worked well, but SeeMeCNC recently came out with a pretty nice extruder (EzStruder), and when on sale it wasn't much more than the hobbed drive pulley I needed ($9 for the pulley, $25 for the extruder with pulley). It's had quite a few good reviews by people who had seen and used it. It's small, plenty of torque and dead simple to change filament, I like it a lot. I wouldn't mind putting a geared stepper motor on it though, just to slow it down a bit.

The only time I saw a problem with filament and the extruder was when the motor go so hot that it softened the PLA. Otherwise, my extruder has been great.

I'm starting to wonder if the filament is just worse than I thought. On the plus side, if that's the case, and i am doing okay with it, it means things should be great once I do replace it.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #221 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 05:35:52 »
I got to thinking, if it's the moisture, I'm in trouble because even if I buy better filament, I would have issues. What annoyed me as well, was people storing it out in the open without issue, while I was being careful to re-bag it every chance I got. I can believe it can swell some, but if it did lots, there would be a lot of bad products out there as mine is about 13% over size.

When I realized how much, percentage-wise, it really bugged me and made me start thinking of a way to find out. I knew my filament varied some, I measured when I got it in several places and I saw it go from 1.68 to 1.78, so I had a baseline at least.

I went digging for old filament in my work area and the garage. I found a piece that has been in the garage for over a week or more, and... It measured 1.69. So.. If ABS does swell, it's probably very little, my guess would be less than 1%.
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #222 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 06:14:02 »
I do not know. I used only ABS and the filament is in the rage 1.68-1.70 all the time but mostly 1.70mm.

The only thing which is not OK with it is that when starting a print the extrusion is "bloby". See change in the extruded material amount when printing a skirt. It has 4 strings and the outer one (the top) has clearly visible blobs about every 4 mm. This typically goes away when a skirt is finished, sometimes it lasts even during a part of the first layer. Sometimes the filament connecting the blobs is extremely thin even to the extend that it disappears and I only get a sequence of about 1mm long blobs  :rolleyes:

Maybe it is not a filament error.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #223 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 10:24:05 »
that looks like your cold end is too cold or your platform is not heated..

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #224 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 13:57:03 »
that looks like your cold end is too cold or your platform is not heated..
I doubt it is that. I think the temperatures are already stable when I start printing skirt. My guess would be that when printer is not running for a longer time them some gas bubbles get into extruder (somehow) and till they are expelled I get the blobs. Always after a while the extruded filament is nice and even.

Btw. I thought for a long time that Rostock design is the most easy to bed-level, but with the right software support. Looks like the support is arriving now. I have even written down the equations for automatic bed leveling myself but I did not get to the implementation of the HW  and the testing. Anyway I do not need to do it now since it is already done:

At least incorrect tower positions, diagonal rod length, incorrect top endstops, and z-axis length should be easy to compensate for (so one would not need laser cut top and bottom plate). No idea yet what kind of errors are compensated in the video.

Offline OkGold

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #225 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 14:02:40 »
hey guys, so does anyone have Cherry keycap models? I really dig the ALPS adapters, genius

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #226 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 17:43:45 »
I do not know. I used only ABS and the filament is in the rage 1.68-1.70 all the time but mostly 1.70mm.

The only thing which is not OK with it is that when starting a print the extrusion is "bloby". See change in the extruded material amount when printing a skirt. It has 4 strings and the outer one (the top) has clearly visible blobs about every 4 mm. This typically goes away when a skirt is finished, sometimes it lasts even during a part of the first layer. Sometimes the filament connecting the blobs is extremely thin even to the extend that it disappears and I only get a sequence of about 1mm long blobs  :rolleyes:

Maybe it is not a filament error.

While sitting the nozzle can build gas bubbles and ooze a bit, giving an inconsistent print at first, that's one of the reason you use brims and skirts and such, it clears out the nozzle. Using a skirt, or doing a small amount of extrusion just before starting your print, brings fresh, solid filament into the nozzle.





I'm going to contact the supplier tonight about the filament and see what they say. The seller claims an oval shape is normal due to how they roll it, however, mine is round, it's just HUGE. When half the roll is 1.98 and 1.99 round, of course it has issues in a 2mm ID bowden tube. The seller and manufacturer also claims .1mm accuracy.. riiight. I know it's cheap filament, but I would like to at least get most than a quarter pound out of the 4 I have.  Luckily, I'll be near the seller Friday and may just stop in and show them.


Oh, and I found out the issue people have with direct drive on 1.75, bowden tube systems...
This setup seems okay for .5 nozzles (which I saw), and is what most people start with. However, once you decrease the nozzle size, head pressure goes up and in order to continue pushing filament, it takes lot of power, which can overpower the pneumatic fittings, and overheat the motors. Even the best Nema 17's can just barely push a .35 nozzle without getting quite warm hot.  Which is exactly what I have been experiencing.

I suspect the motor or driver gets hot and loses power. With PLA it can get hot enough to soften the PLA as it passes the drive gear, and soft PLA in telfon doesn't push nearly as easy.

So I'm looking at gear reduction systems, drivers and a clamp system for the bowden possibly.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #227 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 18:33:53 »
that looks like your cold end is too cold or your platform is not heated..
I doubt it is that. I think the temperatures are already stable when I start printing skirt. My guess would be that when printer is not running for a longer time them some gas bubbles get into extruder (somehow) and till they are expelled I get the blobs. Always after a while the extruded filament is nice and even.

sorry, i misread this. i thought all your extrusion looks like this. i can definitely imagine weird startup effects that would cause this, but just program your slicer to extrude enough garbage to get into steady state before starting on the part; imo easier to do that than debug startup effects. (they're a bit like caching startup in compute systems..)

Quote
Btw. I thought for a long time that Rostock design is the most easy to bed-level, but with the right software support. Looks like the support is arriving now. I have even written down the equations for automatic bed leveling myself but I did not get to the implementation of the HW  and the testing. Anyway I do not need to do it now since it is already done:

At least incorrect tower positions, diagonal rod length, incorrect top endstops, and z-axis length should be easy to compensate for (so one would not need laser cut top and bottom plate). No idea yet what kind of errors are compensated in the video.

very cool. frankly, there's no reason you couldn't do the same thing with a euclidian design. the limitations at the moment are largely budgetary.

and leslieann, re: the tolerances on your filament, not to say i told you so but... ;)

we should identify the _good_ filament manufacturers here. frankly, the MBI stuff is obviously being made in china now, so we can isolate the good extruders at factories in the same way that we isolate the good keycap molder factories over there... after all, a filament extruder is basically the front end of an injection molder with a tool at the end that extrudes long strands of filament in a very controlled way (rather than a big old mold under pressure..)
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 June 2013, 18:40:15 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #228 on: Mon, 24 June 2013, 22:08:43 »
and leslieann, re: the tolerances on your filament, not to say i told you so but... ;)

we should identify the _good_ filament manufacturers here. frankly, the MBI stuff is obviously being made in china now, so we can isolate the good extruders at factories in the same way that we isolate the good keycap molder factories over there... after all, a filament extruder is basically the front end of an injection molder with a tool at the end that extrudes long strands of filament in a very controlled way (rather than a big old mold under pressure..)
One of the bigest complaints I have heard with cheap filament is size., so I did check it when I got it and before buying the PLA. The first 10% of the ABS was decent, I wouldn't have said it was great, but it served it's purpose, it was only as I got further into the roll that things went south.  Had I seen it this bad, I wouldn't have ordered the the PLA. It too seems fine many meters in, but it's not like you can easily unroll a pound of filament and check.

As for good ones, here are two lists.
http://reprap.org/wiki/Printing_Material_Suppliers
http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=754
Based on recommendations (and shipping location) I have 1lb or ABS and another of PLA coming from Ultimachine, should be here tomorrow (I hope).

Also, take a look at this, you think my filament is bad?
http://richrap.blogspot.com/2012/06/jammed-frggn-nozzle-30doc-days-1518.html
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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #229 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 00:24:53 »
Is he serious about the ball bearings? Holy crap, that isn't even some slight contamination, that is like their machine breaking down and releasing balls from its bearings into the material. I wouldn't touch that with a 12 gauge shotgun.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #230 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 00:32:51 »
yah, i like how he refers to the bearing as "a contaminant". a bearing is much much more than a contaminant. that's like "oh, pieces from the grinder just kind of fall into the material, AND WE LEAVE THEM IN IT". the real question is, what do they do with the grinder?

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #231 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 03:45:16 »
I'm going to contact the supplier tonight about the filament and see what they say. The seller claims an oval shape is normal due to how they roll it, however, mine is round, it's just HUGE. When half the roll is 1.98 and 1.99 round, of course it has issues in a 2mm ID bowden tube. The seller and manufacturer also claims .1mm accuracy.. riiight. I know it's cheap filament, but I would like to at least get most than a quarter pound out of the 4 I have.  Luckily, I'll be near the seller Friday and may just stop in and show them.
When a filament is not round or when diameter changes over the length of the filament then the filament should be thrown to a garbage bin and the supplier should not be used again.
Even 0.1 mm accuracy for 1.75 mm filament can mean that the volume pushed through nozzle is almost 12% more (or almost 12% less) than the slicer expects. The error seems high to me.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #232 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 03:46:26 »
hey guys, so does anyone have Cherry keycap models? I really dig the ALPS adapters, genius
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:79673

Offline OkGold

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #233 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 09:39:42 »
So what's the market like here? are people interested in getting adapters/keys/etc? or is it just something people are messing around with?

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #234 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 09:49:23 »
we're messing around so that we can deliver you guys cool custom stuff! best of both worlds hooray!

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline kmiller8

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #235 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 13:02:19 »
Well I got my kit yesterday... Got everything assembled except the extruder because I'm missing a few bearings. Hopefully by the end of the week I'll be printing.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #236 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 16:55:41 »
Well I got my kit yesterday... Got everything assembled except the extruder because I'm missing a few bearings. Hopefully by the end of the week I'll be printing.

topre keychains!!  :-X

Offline kmiller8

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #237 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 18:31:16 »
topre keychains!!  :-X

no? those will be laser cut... There's isn't a good enough finishing method on FDM 3D printing that I'd feel comfortable selling as a finished "professional" product.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #238 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 19:08:09 »

people                 3d printers owned                     will print for you?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
leslieann              rostock delta (from kit)               no

This information  is incorrect.
Mine is not a kit, mine is built from scratch.
Also, I have no problem printing for others, once I have everything worked out.



When a filament is not round or when diameter changes over the length of the filament then the filament should be thrown to a garbage bin and the supplier should not be used again.
Even 0.1 mm accuracy for 1.75 mm filament can mean that the volume pushed through nozzle is almost 12% more (or almost 12% less) than the slicer expects. The error seems high to me.
I agree, but he also needs to know he is selling utter garbage.

I agree and disagree with you about the .1 accuracy.  On one hand, yeah, it's a hassle, on the other hand, how much are you willing to pay to get higher accuracy? If it's not effecting the print, it's not worth a massive price increase.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #239 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 01:01:53 »

people                 3d printers owned                     will print for you?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
leslieann              rostock delta (from kit)               no

This information  is incorrect.
Mine is not a kit, mine is built from scratch.
Also, I have no problem printing for others, once I have everything worked out.


oh, good point. could you put one dense post together that summarizes your build? plans, BOM, some brief description of anything that needs to be fabbed, any specific issues you had early on that we haven't been beating to death for the last n pages... ;)

going on plans and sourcing your own parts is something that should be discussed more. a lot of the reprap plans are more like loose recipes (ie, get _some_ kind of stepper motor with at least these specs...) that provide room for a lot of budgeting etc... if the rostock is like that, a more detailed post on your build would be very education.

for my part, i'm going to start this week on my completely exploratory delta-like design with a simple rotary table this week. just putting an ARM on it, taking some measurements, putting bed material, taking some measurements, heating it up, taking some measurements... yes, this is what i do for fun.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #240 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 01:46:34 »
oh, good point. could you put one dense post together that summarizes your build? plans, BOM, some brief description of anything that needs to be fabbed, any specific issues you had early on that we haven't been beating to death for the last n pages... ;)

going on plans and sourcing your own parts is something that should be discussed more. a lot of the reprap plans are more like loose recipes (ie, get _some_ kind of stepper motor with at least these specs...) that provide room for a lot of budgeting etc... if the rostock is like that, a more detailed post on your build would be very education.
Yeah, I can do that, and yes, the Rostock is exactly like that... I get things like this:
"Fasteners: Stainless steel, mostly M3 (some M4 and M8)."
That was why I said your kit has a lot of bugs worked out, mine is ALL bugs. LOL
Here is the wiki page for it: http://reprap.org/wiki/Rostock


Hmm...
I'm debating if it might be better to do it as a separate thread, and make it a bit generic as well. Sort of a "so you want to build a 3d printer" type thing.
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #241 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 03:50:54 »
I agree and disagree with you about the .1 accuracy.  On one hand, yeah, it's a hassle, on the other hand, how much are you willing to pay to get higher accuracy? If it's not effecting the print, it's not worth a massive price increase.
You are right, there is no reason to pay more when it is not needed.
The rostock here is the old one as defined in the wiki: http://reprap.org/wiki/Rostock
I do not own it. It was from a kit. The kit had few bad parts: too loose filament guide on airtripper (fixed by inserting a piece of bowden in it), defect on the heatbed copper traces (fixed by soldering), universal joint holes should have been smaller, obsolete and unfinished build instructions.
It prints ok at low speeds (at most 50 mm/s), 0.3 mm layer height, external perimeters at about 10-20 mm/s.
Filament is from the same source as the kit. It looks fine so far. It's diameter is still in the rage 1.68-1.70 mm. But only about 10% of the spool is used so maybe the quality will deteriorate later :rolleyes: or maybe not  :). 1kg of filament was for 24€ ... and now it is 25€ ... long life for inflation!

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #242 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 06:19:19 »
As I expected, a "build a 3d printer primer" came in at over 2600 words and that's before I add bb code and links and final edit. LOL



The rostock here is the old one as defined in the wiki: http://reprap.org/wiki/Rostock
I do not own it. It was from a kit. The kit had few bad parts: too loose filament guide on airtripper (fixed by inserting a piece of bowden in it), defect on the heatbed copper traces (fixed by soldering), universal joint holes should have been smaller, obsolete and unfinished build instructions.
It prints ok at low speeds (at most 50 mm/s), 0.3 mm layer height, external perimeters at about 10-20 mm/s.
That's the same Rostock I have, just done in parts by me, no kit. Yeah, the instructions stink. LOL My next will be a Cerberus or oversize Kossel.

Two things determine print speeds on a delta (actually three), the head, and the arms. The u-joints are worthless junk, I never even installed them. Traxxas rc car rod end system can be cobbled together for $12 (Or bought for about $40), I used 3/8in oak, and cut the heads off some fasteners to attach the rod ends. Or, go one step further, and spend the $50 and convert to magnetic rods.

On mine, I consider 50mm per second slow, that is my baseline troubleshooting speed. I only go below that when there is a problem (which is all the time at the moment).

If my extruder could keep up, at .3 mm layer height I could easily print at 80-100mm a second without any noticeable quality loss and even ran mine up to to 200 (just to try it) and saw only a little loss in quality. Magnetics should exceed even that, however the momentum it generates shakes the heck out of everything (it seemed like a good size earthquake was happening) and as I said, my extruder motor can't handle it. I suspect I would probably need a more powerful heater to keep up that rate for long as well. I'd love good quality at 120-160mm, which is very fast for a cartesian.

If you have good arms and head, there is only one other thing that causes poor prints on a Rostock and that's the belts. They need to be TIGHT! They should sound like an upright bass guitar when you pluck them. Seriously!  It took me a while to figure out how tight they actually needed to be.

I use three of these, they make tensioning the belts much easier. These are probably a bit better but will add mass to the system. I'm probably going to make a mesh of the two designs soon.
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 June 2013, 06:34:20 by Leslieann »
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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #243 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 07:29:11 »
If you are all crazy and want to make huge modifications, then there are always lead screws and linear actuators based on them.

A smaller change you could make: The larger the wheels, the less influence you will get from flex in the drive belts. You sort of gear it up, then add the tolerance and then gear it back down again, also gearing down and lowering the influence from the added tolerances in the middle of this transmission.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #244 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 09:27:50 »
the MBI unit is a good candidate for leadscrews actually. the Z dimension is already driven by a very long very nice leadscrew. the Y two-belt design i was talking about _could_ be a single belt driving a leadscrew... the X dimension is pretty accurate with a single belt.

the rotary table i'm picking up is stepper directly driving the table via a leadscrew. it's the sherline 4"

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #245 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 09:28:32 »
i've updated the OP to reflect everyone's sourcing a bit more properly. when you get your novel up i'll link to it leslieann :))

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #246 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 15:39:23 »
A smaller change you could make: The larger the wheels, the less influence you will get from flex in the drive belts. You sort of gear it up, then add the tolerance and then gear it back down again, also gearing down and lowering the influence from the added tolerances in the middle of this transmission.
Larger pulleys, while they do have less belt influence, make for less positioning accuracy. Though 200 steps per mm is probably a bit on the excessive side.  :))
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #247 on: Thu, 27 June 2013, 05:37:24 »
Leslieann, I replaced u-joints yesterday with .... much more tighter u-joints. Hopefully it will last for a while. Hell, it was possible to move the platform by few millimeters without any movement on the carriages. I was surprised it printed so well (at slow speeds). I guess gravity forced the platform to the same position. It looks like even when the joints are total crap, rostock can print quite well if it is set to very low speeds.

Belts produced a bass tone from the beginning. They should be ok. They were tightened the way wiki proposes: tighten manually, put it down shorten them a bit more and force them back. Seems to work well enough.

There were separate instructions with the kit. They were not much better than what is on the wiki  :rolleyes:

What I want to point out is that if you go with a kit it is not much better than sourcing everything yourself.

There are new carbon tubes here for over a week now and some sample ball-joints from an RC Model shop. So there is a plan to replace the diagonal rods with something better. Still waiting for more ball-joints and tools to make left-hand threads.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #248 on: Thu, 27 June 2013, 06:09:18 »
Would not leadscrews mean slow movements? Leadscrew will slow down your system (compared to pulleys) about 30 times. It may mean getting steppers which can accelerate more quickly to keep the print speeds up.

The new Mini-Kossel levels bed repeatedly to 0.02 mm and there is no reason it would be slower than standard rostock. So you get speeds up to 20 cm/s and low speed accuracy of 0.02 with belts cheaply. Hmm, cannot even quickly find what is typical elasticity of GT2 timing belts.

Can leadscrew compete? Probably yes ... with beefy enough motors :)

Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #249 on: Thu, 27 June 2013, 06:15:53 »
Yes, they will not reach the same speed as easily, but you get reliable and consistent tolerances with increased speed. If you need to have acceleration and retardation distances for movement with bands, and in cases where there is no room even wait for the oscillation to dissipate, then the total time might be the same with a slower but far more exact lead screw.

I agree that is it most likely overkill though but this consistency, which then also allows the head to output a very constant flow, could be another factor to make the builds more consistent. This rather than having to continuously have to adjust the output rate to match the irregular movement caused by a band system.